[NSP] Re: Colin Ross
Brilliant John! Puts us all in our place. (If we select the wrong person, the Americans could come here to help bring about Regime Change) Only joking Philip - Original Message - From: Dally, John john.da...@hmhpub.com To: what.me what...@ntlworld.com; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 1:24 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: Colin Ross I agree completely with Adrian. I too will not accept any cups, medals, trophies or sleep-over offers from some politition. I urge all other trophy hunters, um, I mean Society members to do the same. For many years now I have NOT been collecting cups, medals and trophies, but I had no idea that my lack of acquisitiveness was a bold political statement. If I ever win anything again, I'll give it to Colin Ross who is much more deserving and whose many photos in the Newsletter are a constant reminder that I live down here on earth. To Julia Say: I wish to know if by paying my dues (which are nearly equal to the cost of a second rate chanter reed) I have interfered some how with British politics. We Americans are loath to interfere with other governments, as you all know, so I shall happily accept a refund of my dues at this time if the funds will be used in anyway to further the personal political ambitions in piping or otherwise of any one individual, elected or otherwise appointed. Respectfully, John To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] President
Elizabeth sent this last night but it didn't appear - sent with the wrong name maybe? I didn't think the list worked like that. Anyway, let's try again as if it's from me. Do the NPS rules state that there can only be one President? Another music society to which I belong has on several occasions wanted to mark exceptional contributions by outgoing chairpersons so we now have 2 presidents (and also a vice president). Each one now does only the amount of work they have time or energy for and the membership is happy. If this could be allowed then both Colin and Joyce Quin could be appointed and the present difficulties resolved. Elizabeth Gruar - Original Message - From: Chris Harris ch...@harris405.plus.com To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 8:21 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Colin Ross I'm not sure it was an opportunity missed. If I understand the situation correctly (and maybe I don't), it wasn't possible, according to the rules. And Julia is absolutely right, that the rules can't just be set aside because they are inconvenient at a particular point. Having said that, I fully agree that Colin should be honoured in whatever way may be possible. If it is still possible for him to be President at this stage, within the rules, I'd be all for it. I do feel a bit sorry for the lady who's already been asked, though. Chris Harris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Colin Ross
On 23 May 2009, Philip Gruar wrote: (If we select the wrong person, the Americans could come here to help bring about Regime Change) joke mode on No. I don't want to be interned as a hostile combatant!!! - Original Message - From: Dally, John john.da...@hmhpub.com For many years now I have NOT been collecting cups, medals and trophies, Then what's your name doing on the composition trophy that's on my shelf at the moment?? grin To Julia Say: I wish to know if by paying my dues (which are nearly equal to the cost of a second rate chanter reed) I have interfered some how with British politics. John, the NPS secretary wishes to assure you that none of your subscription is used to fund any political activity of any sort. Our members come from all walks of life and doubtless hold many differing political, religious and other potentially contentious views - like how to make second rate reeds. How many do you require?? We Americans are loath to interfere with other governments, as you all know, Err. no, on second thoughts perhaps I'd better not grin Good to lighten up for a bit Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: EGM
I am pleased that a new form of words has now been proposed. I could not have signed the previous motion, as I can neither have nor lack confidence in a decision which resulted from circumstances and discussions of which I only have very partial knowledge. I have no knowledge of Joyce Quin; whatever her qualities and achievements, I question whether this position, President of a Society dedicated to Music in one of its manifestations, is the appropriate recognition of them. As for Colin Ross - in my view, the juice that powered the High Level Ranters is recognition from a place more real than the world of societies and committees, which - in my limited experience - may behave in a way that is less intelligent than might be expected from the intelligence of their members - which is NOT a dig at the NPS Committee, it just seems to be the way the world works. People have had their little gripes and digs at Colin here even while supporting his candidacy. Let's get over it, we're all flawed, and I suspect none of us would be here reading this if it were not for Colin's contribution. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Latest
Just to make sure, again,-yes, count me in on this resolution Bill From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 23 May 2009 10:29 To: Chris Almond; Colin and; Neil Baker; NIGEL BARLOW; Nigel Barlow; Bill Bohill; Daphne Briggs; Steve Campbell; Helen Capes; Pauline Cato; Margaret Cato; colin; Dave Cook; Rick Damon; Dave McQuade; RichardAnita Evans; Reg Flower; John Gibbons; John Gibbons; Gordon Greenley; Philip Gruar; Marianne Hall; Honor Hill; David Hillery; Nick Hopkinson; Simon James; Ian Lawther; Simon Leveaux; Alan McKenzie; Dave McQuade; Margaret Moyes; Adrian Scofield; Matt Seattle; Mike Sharp; Bill Telfer Subject: Latest Just to let everyone know what's happening. The submission for Julia will go off as soon as I'm confident that the people whose names appear are happy. Some have expressed opinions so clearly and I don't expect to hear further from them. If you are having doubts either way about the presence of your signature please get in touch no later than Tuesday 26th May. May I add that I am doing this with Colin's approval although he certainly did not instigate it. In my view the Society needs the involvement of the grandees such as Colin. To have him put out to pasture at this stage would be, I think, unwise and unjust. Here is what I hope to send to Julia next week: Julia Say Hon. Secretary Northumbrian Pipers' Society Dear Julia We the undersigned request that an Extraordinary general meeting of Society members be convened in order to consider the following motion: Following strong dissatisfaction expressed by many members, this meeting proposes that the committee's choice of president be reconsidered, and mandates the committee to re-start the selection process, with nominations and voting facilities to be extended to the entire membership. Yours sincerely, Helen Capes Richard Evans Gordon Greenley Philip Gruar Paul Gretton Marianne Hall Simon James Ian Lawther Anthony Robb Adrian Schofield Matt Seattle Neil Tavernor -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Latest
On 23 May 2009, Bill Telfer wrote: Just to make sure, again,-yes, count me in on this resolution From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 23 May 2009 10:29 The submission for Julia will go off as soon as I'm confident that the people whose names appear are happy. Here is what I hope to send to Julia next week: Julia Say Hon. Secretary Anthony, Bill and others: If this is something on which you wish me to take action, please re- send to my secretary address: secret...@northumbrianpipers.org.uk I do not feel it is appropriate to act on what this appears to be on- list. Thank you. Julia Say NPS Hon Sec. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] President
Anthony, though I've said that I'm in favour of Colin being proposed as President, there are facts that have come to my attention which have not been disclosed on this forum, which have disquaded me from voting. I think you are rollerballing the proposal of President without giving people time to get the facts, which may disuade/not disquade others from voting. By doing this is, It is fast-tracking the proposal and sweeping away underlying problems re: Ann sessoms post and other problems/potential problems that have/will happen. Please take me off the list, I do not want to vote. Adrian To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] President
Anthony, though I've said that I'm in favour of Colin being proposed as President, there are facts that have come to my attention which have not been disclosed on this forum, which have disquaded me from voting. I think you are rollerballing the proposal of President without giving people time to get the facts, which may disuade/not disquade others from voting. By doing this is, It is fast-tracking the proposal and sweeping away underlying problems re: Ann sessoms post and other problems/potential problems that have/will happen. Please take me off the list, I do not want to vote. Adrian To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] NPS President
Thank you, Ann, for providing further information about the President-elect and her piping interests and abilities, which is much needed. Some brief Web-based research has provided further information indicating that Joyce Quin has been very active in the House of Lords in supporting causes which, personally, I find admirable. Nobody will be surprised that they do not include issues intimately connected with smallpipes but they are worthy of respect. Other members will make their own minds up about this if they make similar enquiries. As to the election of the ex-Chairman as President, this really is a redundant issue. It seems that the Committee made their decision in accordance with the rules of the Society and giving due consideration to eligible and potentially willing candidates, neither of which categories included the Chairman at the time the decision was taken. I see no reason to distrust the processes by which this decision was reached and no doubt the Committee will wish to clarify the details if controversy continues. I understand that there is presently a campaign, so far conducted in private, to subvert the Committees efforts and decision, and to persuade the former Chairman to become President. Members have already been informed by the Secretary via this list,that the Chairman decided to resign from the chair and the Committee as a result of medical advice. I am sure we would all wish him well and I am dismayed to hear of any ill-conceived interventions which might well compromise his health. No doubt he would wish to dissociate himself from these misguided efforts. I understand Anns misgivings and I share them. The distribution of skills in any gifted individual is frequently very uneven and (forgive my frankness) this is the issue at stake here. Our Chairman has made an colossal contribution to the traditional music of this country both as an advocate and performer. His position in the development of our pipes, one of the very few traditional instruments native to England, is inestimable and of importance in the wider field of innovative woodwind development. What more could one ask? These are not necessarily the qualities enabling the effective chairing of a committee or diplomatically and inclusively presiding over an organisation. Others can do those things perfectly well and possibly better, and should be permitted to do so. I would like to express my confidence in the NPS Committee, in their observance of fair practice, and in their decision on this matter. Francis Wood -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: NPS President
I think it's time for the NPS to stop this childish sucking-up to Patrons and Presidents. There is no need for our Patron at all. I've not seen or heard anything that he has done for the cause of our society except give our society some false illusion of Grandeur, Nobility and Eliteism and cast an erroneous cloud of what the Northumberland Smallpipes are about. The Patron has not supported our society as within dictionary terms for the word Patron So what's he there for? As for a President, there is no need for one, the Chairman can do that job. If one says that the President most be impartial, then the Chairman should be too when sitting in committee. The Chairman is not there to dictate, he there to precide. I believe the title Honarary President could be given to achievements made within the society as a gesture of thanks but he/she would have no powers whatsoever. Adrian -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: NPS President
I would like to support the views of Ann Sessoms and Francis wood as they reflect my own but are so much more eloquently put. There seems to be an orchestrated Gadarene rush towards what is essentially a vote of no confidence in the elected committee. Where will it all end if they take the hump and resign en masse? Dave Shaw Dave Shaw, Northumbrian and Scottish Smallpipes, Irish Pipes and SHAW Whistles www.daveshaw.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: NPS President Francis Wood's post
This posting from Francis Wood summarises my feelings on the new president affair very eloquently and comprehensively, and moreover soothingly - as is his way. I would imagine that Colin Ross in particular could take comfort with the understanding shown of his awkward position in all of this. I would add my own good wishes to Colin, as I, among the legion, have from personal contact with him benefitted from his expertise in pipe-fettling and reed-making, and he has my total respect in all things to do with pipes and piping and pipe music. I find the campaign to subvert the completely legitimate and praiseworthy presidential selection process to be ill-conceived. It does no service to the society or more importantly to Colin Ross. Who could fail to be moved by Colin's account on the 19th of this month of the reasons behind his decision to step away from the selection process? The campaign totally ignores what the effect on Colin could be of the additional stress of facing an election process when there would obviously be strong opposition. I hope that the organisers will reconsider their position, preferably sooner rather than later. Robert - Original Message - From: Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com To: annsess...@yahoo.co.uk; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 2:56 PM Subject: [NSP] NPS President Thank you, Ann, for providing further information about the President-elect and her piping interests and abilities, which is much needed. Some brief Web-based research has provided further information indicating that Joyce Quin has been very active in the House of Lords in supporting causes which, personally, I find admirable. Nobody will be surprised that they do not include issues intimately connected with smallpipes but they are worthy of respect. Other members will make their own minds up about this if they make similar enquiries. As to the election of the ex-Chairman as President, this really is a redundant issue. It seems that the Committee made their decision in accordance with the rules of the Society and giving due consideration to eligible and potentially willing candidates, neither of which categories included the Chairman at the time the decision was taken. I see no reason to distrust the processes by which this decision was reached and no doubt the Committee will wish to clarify the details if controversy continues. I understand that there is presently a campaign, so far conducted in private, to subvert the Committees efforts and decision, and to persuade the former Chairman to become President. Members have already been informed by the Secretary via this list,that the Chairman decided to resign from the chair and the Committee as a result of medical advice. I am sure we would all wish him well and I am dismayed to hear of any ill-conceived interventions which might well compromise his health. No doubt he would wish to dissociate himself from these misguided efforts. I understand Anns misgivings and I share them. The distribution of skills in any gifted individual is frequently very uneven and (forgive my frankness) this is the issue at stake here. Our Chairman has made an colossal contribution to the traditional music of this country both as an advocate and performer. His position in the development of our pipes, one of the very few traditional instruments native to England, is inestimable and of importance in the wider field of innovative woodwind development. What more could one ask? These are not necessarily the qualities enabling the effective chairing of a committee or diplomatically and inclusively presiding over an organisation. Others can do those things perfectly well and possibly better, and should be permitted to do so. I would like to express my confidence in the NPS Committee, in their observance of fair practice, and in their decision on this matter. Francis Wood -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] (Fwd) Re: In the light of recent postings ...
Accidentally sent offlist to Richard H.only Julia --- Forwarded message follows --- On 23 May 2009, richard.hea...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: (2) In relation to recent suggestions that the Society's Rules be changed to allow a particular decision to be altered, the Secretary pointed out that there is a due process for this. Is this process clear? A rule change may be proposed by any member for an AGM, or by calling a special EGM to effect it (in which case 10 members are needed). If I receive a valid call for an EGM, I have to call that meeting within 28 days of receiving that request, and allow 14 days notice to all members. Realistically, the only way to contact overseas members to fulfil this condition is by email - remember we now have a few members in such diverse areas as Japan, Thailand, Vietnam, and South Africa. Decisions at an EGM are by simple majority, except in the case of rule changes, where the requirement is a 2/3rd majority of members present and eligible to vote. The chairman of the meeting has a second or casting vote in the event of a tie. I think that is sufficiently clear. Julia Say NPS Hon Sec. --- End of forwarded message --- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: NPS President and more.
This seems to be getting out of hand. If I'm correct, there was a decision taken in committee to which the chair objected and, as a result, resigned. Is there nothing in place where a contentious issue may be placed before the members or that an EGM could be called for? I've been is situations where this has happened and, after a vote by the members, all has settled down with those unable to accept the ruling deciding that they would be forever at odds with the rest of the committee and have resigned their post. That's their prerogative The EGM can give an opportunity for all sides to discuss the problem in an open manner. Discussions behind closed doors often result in whisperings and suspicion. Even when it's not called for in the rules, open discussions with members is often a good idea. We do, after all, vote people into the positions and can also vote them out again (or at least not vote for them again). At the moment we are hearing bits of things which, to my mind, smacks of infighting and personal grudges ranging from I'm not playing any more to if you don't like it, tough, we don't need you. This isn't doing any good at all. Sometimes it's too late to announce that a decision has been taken and just maybe (when politics can seem to take a part, for instance) it may be appropriate to involve all the members in a vote or at least to ask their opinion first (don't governments have enough of a problem with this?). Whilst I realise that the committee is voted in to take these decisions, there may be occasions when a simple committee majority just isn't enough. A simple poll of the members would, I think, have been a good idea. We run the severe risk of alienating sections of our membership here and we need also to remember that the membership covers a rather wide area with some unable to attend meetings either through distance, cost or health reasons. Has the society considered a proxy vote for these people? If this matter isn't resolved in an open and public way, I can see a fragmenting of the society into two or more camps. We must, I think, put our own personal selves aside and think PIPES and what is best for PIPES. Innuendo and gossip isn't what we want to hear. maybe a publishing of the minutes of the meeting concerned would help? Without getting a concise record of what was said and done, we are forced to glean what we can from emails. That's not good and will totally rely on how vehement or eloquent the writer may be. Let's have it all out in the open (isn't that what minutes are for???). Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Dave Shaw d...@daveshaw.co.uk To: annsess...@yahoo.co.uk; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 4:32 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: NPS President I would like to support the views of Ann Sessoms and Francis wood as they reflect my own but are so much more eloquently put. There seems to be an orchestrated Gadarene rush towards what is essentially a vote of no confidence in the elected committee. Where will it all end if they take the hump and resign en masse? Dave Shaw Dave Shaw, Northumbrian and Scottish Smallpipes, Irish Pipes and SHAW Whistles www.daveshaw.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] (Fwd) Re: In the light of recent postings ...
Hi All, I sent a message to Steve Bliven and copied it to the list but it contained a forbidden word in the first 5 lines. Here it is again. -- On 23 May 2009 at 12:35, Steve Bliven wrote: If, however, the members have decided to use this list as their organ then, as a non-member, I am clearly in the wrong place and will unsubscribe forthwith. Best wishes. Steve Bliven Hi Steve, Thanks for pointing that out. I am sorry that you feel driven to leave this list. Although I have been actively involved with the NPS for the whole of my time on this list and its predecessors, I have always tried to avoid bringing Society matters to this list. I was well aware that there were people on this list who had no wish to be involved with the NPS in any way. I have always valued this list as a channel for hearing the opinions of such people. I trust you will return to the list when this outburst is over. Barry Say To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] flawed
From what I've been told about about the AGM 2 years ago, where a certain person bursted out in rage and condemned Burleigh's pipes, why wasn't this minuted? If I can't trust the committee, then I can see no future with the NSP and me. GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER as I feel very strong about it. Adrian To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: NPS President and more.
On 23 May 2009, colin wrote: If I'm correct, there was a decision taken in committee to which the chair objected and, as a result, resigned. The chairman accepted the vote of the meeting. Colin R resigned on the advice of his doctor. With a serious heart condition one does not ignore that advice lightly. there may be occasions when a simple committee majority just isn't enough. A simple poll of the members would, I think, have been a good idea. I suggested to the committee that suggestions be sought from the membership via the newsletter and I would have liked to have had a membership wide vote on a shortlist, in the interest of openness, but the committee majority thought these ideas inappropriate in view of the rules. maybe a publishing of the minutes of the meeting concerned would help? Copies of the minutes of any committee meeting are available to any member on request. This has been the case for many years and was reiterated in the newsletter a year or so ago. Julia Say NPS Hon Sec To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: NPS President and more.
Yes, I am aware that minutes are available upon request. I was suggesting that, in this particular case and for reasons of clarity, that they should be made available (say on line and maybe password protected) so that those of us who are not within the inner circle could get a clearer reflection of what actually happened - on the presumption that it was all minuted, of course and nothing pertinent was off the record. That may stem any rash urges to take the matter further as may have been suggested by questions asked. It seems odd that a simple resignation on health grounds would stir up so much kafuffle and leads to a suspicion that there was more to it - without suggesting that health grounds did not contribute, of course. I do remember some details of a bypass some time back, I think and the Colins on this list ain't getting any younger :). It was only a suggestion so that decisions can be made on facts, not hearsay and personal vendettas. After all, we want to stay a coherent and useful society, do we not? The last thing we want is any hint of a cover-up or misinformation. I personally don't really have an axe to grind over who you choose as I don't know enough about the role and who would be best to fill it. Some societies and charities have some very odd presidents and patrons anyway and most that I know or have some connection with select someone who seems important and often a very tenuous connection with the aims of the society/charity . At least we do seem to be looking at people who have some connection with piping so that's good. I do think that we should be looking at a 21C solution to communications though. Waiting for a newsletter isn't ideal in the days of instant messaging and snail mail is expensive. If nothing else, maybe this debate will open up a new communications channel. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Julia Say julia@nspipes.co.uk To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; colin cwh...@santa-fe.freeserve.co.uk Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 8:11 PM Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: NPS President and more. On 23 May 2009, colin wrote: If I'm correct, there was a decision taken in committee to which the chair objected and, as a result, resigned. The chairman accepted the vote of the meeting. Colin R resigned on the advice of his doctor. With a serious heart condition one does not ignore that advice lightly. there may be occasions when a simple committee majority just isn't enough. A simple poll of the members would, I think, have been a good idea. I suggested to the committee that suggestions be sought from the membership via the newsletter and I would have liked to have had a membership wide vote on a shortlist, in the interest of openness, but the committee majority thought these ideas inappropriate in view of the rules. maybe a publishing of the minutes of the meeting concerned would help? Copies of the minutes of any committee meeting are available to any member on request. This has been the case for many years and was reiterated in the newsletter a year or so ago. Julia Say NPS Hon Sec To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: This list is NOT affiliated with the Northumbrian Pipers' Society
Hi Wayne, Thanks for shepherding this news group. It's been a source of pleasure and insight for years. It's done more me and my piping than any other form of written communication. I don't know if I'll stay on or not. If we get back to discussing pipes and pipe music I'll stay on, but I'm wearing out my delete button. One thing is certain, I regret having just renewed my membership to the NPS
[NSP] this list is safer now
I should also add that the NSP mail list can no longer transmit computer viruses. Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: flawed
Julia, I suggest that if the minutes cannot be catalogued, then the meeting should be suspended. Again another failing within the commitee. Adrian To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
