[NSP] Re: Synthetic key pads
Sorry for the late response. I have been quite distracted by the rest of life for a while. The stuff I use is the foam Richard discussed, used for canoe seats and kayak knee pads, and comes in a lifetime supply - 1 foot x 3foot x 4 inch block. My preference for it over leather is two reasons - it seals beautifully over a damaged or bad-from-the-git-go hole and it seals without needing to oil the pads ever. I have been using it for maybe 5 years and have had no problems and, although I oil the chanter bore of course, I never have to oil a key pad. That to me is the best benefit. Quoting Richard Evans rich...@evansweb.co.uk: Francis Wood wrote: Thanks for the interesting reply, Richard. I can see some good reasons for using synthetic materials despite my own preference: - Consistent accurate thickness, good for precisely engineered chanters The block of foam is very depressing to look at- it's about a cubic foot and if you translate that into key pads it's a hell of a lot of keys to make! The adhesive stuff is fine for a genuine emergency but it's quite different from what I use. I can't remember what it's called but it was recommended by John Liestman. I got it from a canoe shop- it's used for bespoke canoe seats because it moulds to the paddler's backside. Yes, really. Yer pal, John Liestman To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Synthetic key pads
I think there is another aspect of this debate worth raising which is, for want of a better word, aesthetics. It is a source of satisfaction and pleasure that all of my chanters have at least one key padded with some superb leather given to me by an ancient Italian shoe-maker working in a tiny, street-level workshop between St Peter's (Rome) and Valle Aurelia station. We found it by chance, wandered in off the streets and explained as best we could what we wanted and with a sweeping bella figura gesture he sliced off a piece of top class, shiny black Italian shoe leather. Refusing payment he then waved us out of the shop with prego, prego! Should I ever switch to the neoprene school, I'd always want at least one key padded with this leather for the memories and joy it would bring. As aye Anthony --- On Sun, 18/10/09, Richard Evans rich...@evansweb.co.uk wrote: From: Richard Evans rich...@evansweb.co.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Synthetic key pads To: Cc: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 18 October, 2009, 7:02 PM Francis Wood wrote: Thanks for the interesting reply, Richard. I can see some good reasons for using synthetic materials despite my own preference: - Consistent accurate thickness, good for precisely engineered chanters Funnily enough, the stuff I use is not of consistent thickness- it us cut from a large block using a toothless blade in the bandsaw. This is the same type of blade used by butchers apparently and the process always makes me wince. There's no logic in that because a toothed blade would be much more destructive to the hands! I cut by hand rather than using a guide because the material is too soft for anything else. The block of foam is very depressing to look at- it's about a cubic foot and if you translate that into key pads it's a hell of a lot of keys to make! - Emergency use with self adhesive materials The adhesive stuff is fine for a genuine emergency but it's quite different from what I use. I can't remember what it's called but it was recommended by John Liestman. I got it from a canoe shop- it's used for bespoke canoe seats because it moulds to the paddler's backside. Yes, really. - Possible vegan considerations Your conviction that it seals much better is a powerful endorsement, though I haven't yet found a deficiency with leather. I just like assembling a new chanter absolutely dry and discovering that it's 100% airtight without any adjustment or fiddling about. That's the norm. Some of this synthetic stuff is truly awful and my principal question was about telling the good from the bad before using it. I have seen some excellent chanters failing to work because of degradation of the synthetic pads. No doubt that's because there are different kinds and the wrong one was originally used. Further thoughts, anyone? Wish I could remember what my stuff's called. Cheers Richard -- Richard Evans To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Synthetic key pads
Hello John, I think with orchestral instrument pads the main issue is one of consistency in industrial production. Additionally, leather will always require more attention in fitting. The important question with any new material is not only how well it works but how long it will work. My own strong preference remains for leather NSP keypads. Important to keep an open mind over these questions and I may well change my mind in 40 years time. Francis On 18 Oct 2009, at 12:49, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: Francis, Is the widespread use of synthetic pads in (mouth blown) orchestral woodwinds nowadays down to the fact that they operate in (often very) moist environments, which would presumably affect leather much more than a water-repellent plastic foam? The bore of NSP is oily, but not moist - so the most obvious advantage of plastic over leather disappears. John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Synthetic key pads
Francis Wood wrote: Hello all, Would anyone care to speak up on behalf of synthetic key pads? Yes, I would. I think it is greatly superior to leather in its sealing properties and I have cured many leaky keys particularly where the key seat is damaged or flat rather than domed, or where the hole has been enlarged. The keys seal without oil but a small amount of oil is used for tonal reasons. I have discovered that the material needs to be cut thicker than leather (I use 1.5-2mm thickness) because as Francis says, it compresses very greatly. I suppose I would use leather if asked but I would be a bit reluctant. Cheers Richard -- Richard Evans To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Synthetic key pads
Thanks for the interesting reply, Richard. I can see some good reasons for using synthetic materials despite my own preference: - Consistent accurate thickness, good for precisely engineered chanters - Emergency use with self adhesive materials - Possible vegan considerations Your conviction that it seals much better is a powerful endorsement, though I haven't yet found a deficiency with leather. Some of this synthetic stuff is truly awful and my principal question was about telling the good from the bad before using it. I have seen some excellent chanters failing to work because of degradation of the synthetic pads. No doubt that's because there are different kinds and the wrong one was originally used. Further thoughts, anyone? Cheers, Francis On 18 Oct 2009, at 08:55, Richard Evans wrote: Francis Wood wrote: Hello all, Would anyone care to speak up on behalf of synthetic key pads? Yes, I would. I think it is greatly superior to leather in its sealing properties and I have cured many leaky keys particularly where the key seat is damaged or flat rather than domed, or where the hole has been enlarged. The keys seal without oil but a small amount of oil is used for tonal reasons. I have discovered that the material needs to be cut thicker than leather (I use 1.5-2mm thickness) because as Francis says, it compresses very greatly. I suppose I would use leather if asked but I would be a bit reluctant. Cheers Richard -- Richard Evans To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Synthetic key pads
Francis, Is the widespread use of synthetic pads in (mouth blown) orchestral woodwinds nowadays down to the fact that they operate in (often very) moist environments, which would presumably affect leather much more than a water-repellent plastic foam? The bore of NSP is oily, but not moist - so the most obvious advantage of plastic over leather disappears. John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Synthetic key pads
Francis Wood wrote: Thanks for the interesting reply, Richard. I can see some good reasons for using synthetic materials despite my own preference: - Consistent accurate thickness, good for precisely engineered chanters Funnily enough, the stuff I use is not of consistent thickness- it us cut from a large block using a toothless blade in the bandsaw. This is the same type of blade used by butchers apparently and the process always makes me wince. There's no logic in that because a toothed blade would be much more destructive to the hands! I cut by hand rather than using a guide because the material is too soft for anything else. The block of foam is very depressing to look at- it's about a cubic foot and if you translate that into key pads it's a hell of a lot of keys to make! - Emergency use with self adhesive materials The adhesive stuff is fine for a genuine emergency but it's quite different from what I use. I can't remember what it's called but it was recommended by John Liestman. I got it from a canoe shop- it's used for bespoke canoe seats because it moulds to the paddler's backside. Yes, really. - Possible vegan considerations Your conviction that it seals much better is a powerful endorsement, though I haven't yet found a deficiency with leather. I just like assembling a new chanter absolutely dry and discovering that it's 100% airtight without any adjustment or fiddling about. That's the norm. Some of this synthetic stuff is truly awful and my principal question was about telling the good from the bad before using it. I have seen some excellent chanters failing to work because of degradation of the synthetic pads. No doubt that's because there are different kinds and the wrong one was originally used. Further thoughts, anyone? Wish I could remember what my stuff's called. Cheers Richard -- Richard Evans To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Synthetic key pads
Very many thanks, particularly to Colin and Richard, for kind informative replies. Colin, I hope you will not mind my redirecting your reply below to the Dartmouth list where my enquiry appeared. Francis On 18 Oct 2009, at 17:06, rosspi...@aol.com wrote: Well at last something that can be responded to without personal judgements being thrown in free of charge. I was advised of the material called closed cell polyurethane foam by John Liiestman of Houston and he sent me a block of it to try out. I was very suspicious of it when I got it for the reasons Francis has already listed but Tom Swinney was prepared to try it out at the time which was over two years ago now. His chanter keys have remained as airtight as they were when he first changed over to the plastic material and have not been affected by oil or have worn out due to the action of the keys. I am now using it it in preference to leather as it makes an absolutely airtight seal immediately and as it settles in remains as airtight even without oil being applied or if oil escapes on to the pad from the bore. This is not neoprene which does deteriorate as Francis has said especially in the presence of oil. Now that is the important bit because any vegetable oil and also neatsfoot oil contains or develops acids that has a bad effect on all sorts of materials. As far as I know there is no way of treating those oils to negate these effects. I use as you all know liquid paraffin, which is completely neutral, and does not affect the 'mini-cell foam' as it is called. If there is any wear and tear on the foam it is as with the soft leather and may need to be replaced in the same way. The foam is sold in blocks or can be obtained in manufactured objects if you know what to look for and can be easily sliced into one millimeter strips from which the key pads can be pressed out. A band saw will also easily slice the material. The pads are then stuck to the key ends with any adhesive available. Colin R To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Synthetic key pads
I tend to agree, leather with shellac for adhesive seems to me to be the most reliable and most long lasting. Helen - Original Message - From: Francis Wood oatenp...@googlemail.com To: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 10:58 AM Subject: [NSP] Synthetic key pads Hello all, Would anyone care to speak up on behalf of synthetic key pads? Many of the recent examples I've seen are all actual or slowly developing disasters. I am referring to the material itself and not to the adhesive used. So my question is: 'are there good sorts and bad sorts'? No doubt there are plenty of satisfactory examples out there, and it's easy to form a distorted view when the only ones that come to you for attention are the ones that have gone wrong. So what's the reality here? Here's what I have observed on pipes that have been brought to me because of failing pads: - Pads which have become progressively thinner under spring pressure and no longer seal. - Others where the area covering the hole has become detatched from the surrounding area of the pad. - Examples where the elasticity of the material has allowed a creep away from the original position. - Spontaneous disintegration. - Forming a precise impression of the hole which then becomes unalterable and just lies there looking depressed, not surprisingly since that is exactly what it is. Clearly some varieties don't like oil and obviously the self-adhesive type isn't worth considering in this context. Perhaps oil also reacts with the pad itself over time. If the solution is to do without oil, which has beneficial tonal effects as well as sealing properties, that won't really do. My preference is for thin soft leather. Here's why: - Available in a huge variety of thicknesses, depending on which part of the skin you cut it from. - It retains oil, promoting effective sealing - Easy to profile with a scalpel if an antique key-seating requires this. - Easily available. - Does not mind modest heat when fitting. - Extremely durable - Has an ancient history of proven successful use. Nothing wrong in principle with the use of keypads of synthetic material, commonplace in mainstream woodwind. So why are so many of ours going wrong? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
