Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
I prefer python, so I prefer mercurial ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
Neal Becker wrote: I prefer python, so I prefer mercurial http://hg-git.github.com/ Dag Sverre ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 11:55 PM, Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.comwrote: Hi, No, I am saying we need at least five people who can commit to the main repo. That is the central repository model. Excellent - yes - that's reasonable. Then if you also agree to this: No development in the main repo. Merges only. then we're all in full agreement. How does that differ from what we do now? Review? I develop in my own branches as is. Review is fine, and it would be nice if more people were reviewing code. At the moment I think it is just Pauli, Stefan, and myself. Right - and that is partly because it so much harder to do review with the model that we have at the moment, and partly because we don't yet have the tradition in numpy of review. I think - honestly - if we're going to be able to encourage and train new developers - we'll have to get on that as soon as we can... True, but what happens when there is no review? I might point out that there are currently tickets with patches for review going back two years and reviewing a patch isn't *that* much harder than visiting github. Using git makes merging changes much easier, but it doesn't solve the review problem. Chuck ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
Hi, How does that differ from what we do now? Review? I develop in my own branches as is. Right - so - then do you always ask for a review from someone before merging into trunk? If so, then git is just a much more fluid, reliable and faster tool to do what you are doing now. True, but what happens when there is no review? I might point out that there are currently tickets with patches for review going back two years and reviewing a patch isn't *that* much harder than visiting github. Using git makes merging changes much easier, but it doesn't solve the review problem. Well - that's true and not true. The joy of git branches and the ease of merging is that you quickly get into the habit of making feature branches for each piece of work. This makes it extremely easy for someone else to review the changes that you have made. So, it greatly lowers the work needed for someone to review your code, and therefore makes it more likely. Having said that - it will of course happen that you ask for review and no-one responds. That's not a very big problem, because git merges are so easy that you can - as Anne said earlier - just keep on developing without worrying that your changes will go out of date. But if there's a long wait - or it's urgent - then what I do is just email with 'If I don't hear anything I'll merge these changes in a few days'. See you, Matthew ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.comwrote: Hi, How does that differ from what we do now? Review? I develop in my own branches as is. Right - so - then do you always ask for a review from someone before merging into trunk? If so, then git is just a much more fluid, reliable and faster tool to do what you are doing now. True, but what happens when there is no review? I might point out that there are currently tickets with patches for review going back two years and reviewing a patch isn't *that* much harder than visiting github. Using git makes merging changes much easier, but it doesn't solve the review problem. Well - that's true and not true. The joy of git branches and the ease of merging is that you quickly get into the habit of making feature branches for each piece of work. This makes it extremely easy for someone else to review the changes that you have made. So, it greatly lowers the work needed for someone to review your code, and therefore makes it more likely. Having said that - it will of course happen that you ask for review and no-one responds. That's not a very big problem, because git merges are so easy that you can - as Anne said earlier - just keep on developing without worrying that your changes will go out of date. But if there's a long wait - or it's urgent - then what I do is just email with 'If I don't hear anything I'll merge these changes in a few days'. Exactly. I had a private bet with myself that that would be the case. See, it isn't so much different after all. The tools change, but the problems and solutions remain much the same. Given that there are only three people doing reviews, and really only two really looking at the c code, I expect that a lot of stuff will be merged without much in the way of review. Now if git leads to more developers that might change. Here's hoping. Chuck ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
Hi, Having said that - it will of course happen that you ask for review and no-one responds. That's not a very big problem, because git merges are so easy that you can - as Anne said earlier - just keep on developing without worrying that your changes will go out of date. But if there's a long wait - or it's urgent - then what I do is just email with 'If I don't hear anything I'll merge these changes in a few days'. Exactly. I had a private bet with myself that that would be the case. See, it isn't so much different after all. The tools change, but the problems and solutions remain much the same. Given that there are only three people doing reviews, and really only two really looking at the c code, I expect that a lot of stuff will be merged without much in the way of review. Well - I do honestly think that a decentralized git workflow is the best tool to improve that. Now if git leads to more developers that might change. Here's hoping. I hope so too. I accidentally ran across this a few days ago: http://www.erlang.org/ - This [Erlang/OTP R13B04] is the first release after the introduction of the official Git repository at Github and it is amazing to notice that the number of contributions from the community has increased significantly. As many as 32 contributors have provided 1 or more patches each until now, resulting in 51 integrated patches from the open source community in this service release. Here's hoping... See you, Matthew ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On 26 May 2010 23:27, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly. I had a private bet with myself that that would be the case. See, it isn't so much different after all. The tools change, but the problems and solutions remain much the same. In this case, I believe the tool may be part of the solution. With limited manpower at our disposal, having a somewhat painful process certainly doesn't help. - Working with patches is unreliable (check out all the patches in Trac that don't apply cleanly and how much effort it will be to fix them). Distributed revision control provides a much better structure within which to manage patches. - Merging in SVN is horrible and will never encourage branches. Without branches, trunk becomes turbulent easily. - We currently don't have any code review in place. This isn't SVN's fault, but tools such as GitHub's compare view (http://github.com/blog/612-introducing-github-compare-view) look really promising Maybe most importantly, distributed revision control places any possible contributor on equal footing with those with commit access; this is one important step in making contributors feel valued. Regards Stéfan ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
2010/5/27 Stéfan van der Walt ste...@sun.ac.za On 26 May 2010 23:27, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly. I had a private bet with myself that that would be the case. See, it isn't so much different after all. The tools change, but the problems and solutions remain much the same. In this case, I believe the tool may be part of the solution. With limited manpower at our disposal, having a somewhat painful process certainly doesn't help. It should help. A commitment to doing reviews is probably more important here than submitting for review. It's less fun than development and takes a certain commitment. Of course, there are probably some perverts out there who find it enjoyable. I hope we find some. - Working with patches is unreliable (check out all the patches in Trac that don't apply cleanly and how much effort it will be to fix them). Distributed revision control provides a much better structure within which to manage patches. Two year old patches are always going to be a problem. The real fix here is not to let things languish. - Merging in SVN is horrible and will never encourage branches. Without branches, trunk becomes turbulent easily. True. Although there would need to be more activity to get to true turbulence. - We currently don't have any code review in place. This isn't SVN's fault, but tools such as GitHub's compare view (http://github.com/blog/612-introducing-github-compare-view) look really promising Maybe most importantly, distributed revision control places any possible contributor on equal footing with those with commit access; this is one important step in making contributors feel valued. Well, not quite. They can't commit to the main repository. I think the main thing is to be responsive: fast review, quick commit. And quick to offer commit rights to anyone who sends in more that a couple of decent patches. Maybe we should take a vow to review one patch a week. Chuck ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On 27 May 2010 00:43, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: Well, not quite. They can't commit to the main repository. I think the main thing is to be responsive: fast review, quick commit. And quick to offer commit rights to anyone who sends in more that a couple of decent patches. At the moment, giving a developer commit access is a nebulous process; not exactly encouraging. I agree with you when you say that we should commit to doing reviews, not to let patches languish, etc. But on top of that, I believe that we should make this easy, inviting and fun; a big part of that is finding the right tool for the job. Remember those days when Trac was horribly broken? That certainly made hacking unpleasant. We upgraded and reconfigured, and now issue tracking is a lot more palatable. Even more painfully, we'll soon be heading for a series of big merges (numpy core refactor); who wants to do those using SVN? Regards Stéfan ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On 27 May 2010 04:43, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe most importantly, distributed revision control places any possible contributor on equal footing with those with commit access; this is one important step in making contributors feel valued. Well, not quite. They can't commit to the main repository. I think the main thing is to be responsive: fast review, quick commit. And quick to offer commit rights to anyone who sends in more that a couple of decent patches. Maybe we should take a vow to review one patch a week. Okay. Suppose we wanted to replicate the current permissions arrangement as closely as possible with git. It seems to me it would look something like this: * Set up a git repository somewhere on scipy.org. * Give everyone who currently has permission to commit to SVN permission to write to this repository. * git submissions would become possible: a user would make some changes but instead of posting a patch would link to a particular git state. The changes could be reviewed and incorporated like a patch, but with easier merging and better history. If the changes became out of date the user could easily merge from the central repository and resolve the conflict themselves. * Patch submissions would be reviewed as now and committed to git by one of the people who do this now. Alternatively they could be integrated to the mainline by someone without write access and published as a git change, to be incorporated (easily) as above by someone with write access. * if review and inclusion were slow it would nevertheless be easy for users to pull from each other and build on each other's changes without making the eventual merge a nightmare. So, no major change to who controls what. The nipy/ipython model takes this a step further, reasoning that git makes branching and merging so easy there's no need for such a large group of people with write access to the central repository, but if that doesn't work for numpy/scipy we don't need to do it. And we can change in either direction at any time with no major changes to infrastructure or workflow. To get back to the original point of the thread: nobody has yet objected to git, and all we have are some debates about the ultimate workflow that don't make much difference to whether or how git should be adopted. Is this a fair description? Anne ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 2:28 AM, Anne Archibald aarch...@physics.mcgill.ca wrote: To get back to the original point of the thread: nobody has yet objected to git, and all we have are some debates about the ultimate workflow that don't make much difference to whether or how git should be adopted. Is this a fair description? Yes, that is my take on it. Since it seems that everyone is open to *discuss* moving to git/github, Stefan and I will draft a NEP for this transition. Stefan is currently visiting Berkeley, so we can easily work together on this over the next few days. However, we are going camping this weekend so we will be off-line more or less from Thursday night until Monday night. We will start the git/github NEP during the trip and then post it to the list for feedback and discussion on Monday night or Tuesday morning. If anyone else is interested in helping draft the NEP over the weekend, please let me know ASAP. We will raise and address as many concerns as possible. I believe the concerns raised so far can be satisfactorily addressed and hopefully the process of writing the NEP will let us systematically explore any potential concerns or problems. Here is a quick list of topics we will address in the NEP: - Client (Windows, Mac, and Linux) support - Issue tracking system integration - Buildbot interaction - Workflow - Legacy support for svn clients - Testing and deployment - Potential timeline If you have any other areas of concern you would like to see addressed, please let us know. Obviously, the weekend draft will be subject to change according to the feedback. Thanks, Jarrod ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 2:28 AM, Anne Archibald aarch...@physics.mcgill.ca wrote: * Set up a git repository somewhere on scipy.org. It's a minor point, but setting up and maintaining our own git repository will require extra work without gaining anything useful. Github has a number of very useful features and is gaining new functionality all the time. It also greatly simplifies account management, which is a royal pain with our current system. Obviously this is a separate issue from whether we move to git or not, but I just wanted to address it quickly. I've registered the following github accounts just to reserve them for now: http://github.com/numpy http://github.com/scipy http://github.com/scikits Jarrod ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David da...@silveregg.co.jp wrote: On 05/27/2010 02:16 PM, Charles R Harris wrote: On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 11:06 PM, Anne Archibald aarch...@physics.mcgill.ca mailto:aarch...@physics.mcgill.ca wrote: On 27 May 2010 01:55, Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.com mailto:matthew.br...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Linux has Linus, ipython has Fernando, nipy has... well, I'm sure it is somebody. Numpy and Scipy no longer have a central figure and I like it that way. There is no reason that DVCS has to inevitably lead to a central authority. I think I was trying to say that the way it looks as if it will be - before you try it - is very different from the way it actually is when you get there. Anne put the idea very well - but I still think it is very hard to understand, without trying it, just how liberating the workflow is from anxieties about central authorities and so on. You can just get on with what you want to do, talk with or merge from whoever you want, and the whole development process becomes much more fluid and productive. And I know that sounds chaotic but - it just works. Really really well. One way to think of it is that there is no main line of development. The only time the central repository needs to pull from the others is when a release is being prepared. As it stands we do have a single release manager, though it's not necessarily the same for each version. So if we wanted, they could just go and pull and merge the repositories of everyone who's made a useful change, then release the results. Of course, this will be vastly easier if all those other people have already merged each other's results (into different branches if appropriate). But just like now, it's the release manager's decision which changes end up in the next version. No, at this point we don't have a release manager, we haven't since 1.2. We have people who do the builds and put them up on sourceforge, but they aren't release managers, they don't decide what is in the release or organise the effort. We haven't had a central figure since Travis got a real job ;) And now David has a real job too. I'm just pointing out that that projects like Linux and IPython have central figures because the originators are still active in the development. Let me put it this way, right now, who would you choose to pull the changes and release the official version? Ralf is the release manager, and for deciding what goes into the release, we do just as we do now. For small changes which do not warrant discussion, they would be handled through pull requests in github at first, but we can improve after that (for example having an automatic gatekeeper which only pulls something that would at least compile and pass the test on a linux machine). So you are saying that Ralf has to manage all the pull requests? I'd hope not. For the record, I really like the development model Matthew proposed. About deciding what goes into a release, I'm sure that David meant small stuff like this can't go in, it's too late in the release cycle or this code needs tests if you want it to be in this release. Cheers, Ralf ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
I just want to say that I used Git on Windows without any problem using a minGW built Git, i.e. msysgit: http://code.google.com/p/msysgit/downloads/list The only problem I see is that with CR / CRLF / LF. When one installs msysgit, one can choose what procedure to take - to commit to the repo with windows or unix line endings. I made the mistake and chose windows line endings, and now all my Git repos have dos format ... pity since I switched to Mac now: my git now wants to commit with another ending format, and everything has to be updated - I wonder whether there is some possibility to revert this virtual-nothing change after committing? - But this is a mess easily avoidable by the virtual instruction Configure your git to commit unix endings! One more thing, iirc msysgit requires that no mingw is installed already - but when you have mingw you can compile git yourself anyway, or am I wrong? Friedrich ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
Hi, Maybe most importantly, distributed revision control places any possible contributor on equal footing with those with commit access; this is one important step in making contributors feel valued. I think this is a very important point, but subtle. I realize that's a dangerous combination, but I'm going to have a go at exposition. I think it is true that the distributed model _tends_ to make contributors feel more welcome, but it's not to do with permissions, it's to do with the process.The process is much more important than the permissions. If we want new contributors to feel welcome, we need a clear, explicit process, that everyone agrees to, and follows. I don't mean something enforced by permissions, but something followed, by convention, and with care, by all the developers. That provides a clear and healthy basis for people to join. In that situation, and in that situation only, new developers do not worry about whether they are clever or important or well-known enough to contribute code. That does tend to follow from the distributed model, because it is fundamentally built on the 'show me the code' model of development. Not surprisingly. I completely agree with Anne that we will work it out when we switch, and the details of process should not delay us. But, this is just a vote for some careful thought - and discussion - and agreement - on what sort of atmosphere we want to convey as a community. That atmosphere comes directly from our development model - or rather - the development model is the clearest indicator of what kind of colleagues we are. Are we careful? Are we serious? Are we thoughtful? Are we open? Are we clear? Do we value learning and teaching? Are we coding for the long-term? See you, Matthew ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
2010/5/27 Friedrich Romstedt friedrichromst...@gmail.com: I just want to say that I used Git on Windows without any problem using a minGW built Git, i.e. msysgit: Hm, I read the other thread too late to recognise this to be discussed already - Sorry And hey, even Windows has Tab completion of path names, even in the, agreed, terrible, non-PowerShell console. ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
[Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
Hello, I changed the subject line for this thread, since I didn't want to hijack another thread. Anyway, I am not proposing that we actually decide whether to move to git and github now, but I am just curious how people would feel. We had a conversation about this a few years ago and it was quite contentious at the time. Since then, I believe a number of us have started using git and github for most of our work. And there are a number of developers using git-svn to develop numpy now. So I was curious to get a feeling for what people would think about it, if we moved to git. (I don't want to rehash the arguments for the move.) Anyway, Chuck listed the main concerns we had previously when we discussed moving from svn to git. See the discussion below. Are there any other concerns? Am I right in thinking that most of the developers would prefer git at this point? Or are there still a number of developers who would prefer using svn still? On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: I think the main problem has been windows compatibility. Git is best from the command line whereas the windows command line is an afterthought. Another box that needs a check-mark is the buildbot. If svn clients are supported then it may be that neither of those are going to be a problem. I was under the impression that there were a number of decent git clients for Windows now, but I don't know anyone who develops on Windows. Are there any NumPy developers who use Windows who could check out the current situation? Pulling from github with an svn client works very well, so buildbot could continue working as is: http://github.com/blog/626-announcing-svn-support And if it turns out the Windows clients are still not good enough, we could look into the recently add svn write support to github: http://github.com/blog/644-subversion-write-support No need for us to make any changes immediately. I am just curious how people would feel about it at this point. Jarrod ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On May 26, 2010, at 5:47 PM, Jarrod Millman wrote: Hello, I changed the subject line for this thread, since I didn't want to hijack another thread. Anyway, I am not proposing that we actually decide whether to move to git and github now, but I am just curious how people would feel. We had a conversation about this a few years ago and it was quite contentious at the time. Since then, I believe a number of us have started using git and github for most of our work. And there are a number of developers using git-svn to develop numpy now. So I was curious to get a feeling for what people would think about it, if we moved to git. (I don't want to rehash the arguments for the move.) I think we are ready for such a move.Someone should think about the implications, though (with Trac integration, check-in mailings, etc.) and make sure we get something we all like. Somebody probably has thought through all of these things already, though. -Travis ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Travis Oliphant oliph...@enthought.com wrote: I think we are ready for such a move. Someone should think about the implications, though (with Trac integration, check-in mailings, etc.) and make sure we get something we all like. Somebody probably has thought through all of these things already, though. Cool. At this point, I am just testing the water. If enough people seem to be OK with the idea in general, I can spend some time looking into the details more closely. Before we make an actual decision, it would be worth turning this into an actual NEP and then asking people to review it. Jarrod ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On 26 May 2010 16:12, Travis Oliphant oliph...@enthought.com wrote: I changed the subject line for this thread, since I didn't want to hijack another thread. Anyway, I am not proposing that we actually decide whether to move to git and github now, but I am just curious how people would feel. We had a conversation about this a few years ago and it was quite contentious at the time. Since then, I believe a number of us have started using git and github for most of our work. And there are a number of developers using git-svn to develop numpy now. So I was curious to get a feeling for what people would think about it, if we moved to git. (I don't want to rehash the arguments for the move.) I think we are ready for such a move. Someone should think about the implications, though (with Trac integration, check-in mailings, etc.) and make sure we get something we all like. Somebody probably has thought through all of these things already, though. Awesome, if there's enough interest I'll help Jarrod out on the NEP. I've been looking at GitHub's Trac integration, and it seems that we should be able to have the same level of integration with the bugtracker as we currently do. Their plugin is available here: http://github.com/davglass/github-trac/ The SVN-checkout functionality should take care of the build bot. As a bonus, we no longer have to administrate user accounts. Converting the SVN repo to Git should pose no problem. Regards Stéfan ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
2010/5/26 Stéfan van der Walt ste...@sun.ac.za: On 26 May 2010 16:12, Travis Oliphant oliph...@enthought.com wrote: I changed the subject line for this thread, since I didn't want to hijack another thread. Anyway, I am not proposing that we actually decide whether to move to git and github now, but I am just curious how people would feel. We had a conversation about this a few years ago and it was quite contentious at the time. Since then, I believe a number of us have started using git and github for most of our work. And there are a number of developers using git-svn to develop numpy now. So I was curious to get a feeling for what people would think about it, if we moved to git. (I don't want to rehash the arguments for the move.) I think we are ready for such a move. Someone should think about the implications, though (with Trac integration, check-in mailings, etc.) and make sure we get something we all like. Somebody probably has thought through all of these things already, though. Awesome, if there's enough interest I'll help Jarrod out on the NEP. I've been looking at GitHub's Trac integration, and it seems that we should be able to have the same level of integration with the bugtracker as we currently do. Their plugin is available here: http://github.com/davglass/github-trac/ The SVN-checkout functionality should take care of the build bot. As a bonus, we no longer have to administrate user accounts. Converting the SVN repo to Git should pose no problem. Regards Stéfan ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion You are all probably aware of this, but I just wanted it said. I do understand the advantage of being able to pull from someone's Python 3 branch (like scipy) as well as some of the more experimental side like the proposed refactoring. All that I ask is that there is one official place to do 'git clone' or 'git pull' from a single official branch. I do not think that it is good to tell users to pull from different branches especially if these branches have conflicts. It also provides a common foundation to troubleshoot problems (of course you don't see it because you don't have that branch...). Yet I do understand that any release candidate can be pulled from any tree (as happens with the Linux kernel) and that this should be more of guide than a fixed rule. Bruce ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:37 AM, Bruce Southey bsout...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/5/26 Stéfan van der Walt ste...@sun.ac.za: On 26 May 2010 16:12, Travis Oliphant oliph...@enthought.com wrote: I changed the subject line for this thread, since I didn't want to hijack another thread. Anyway, I am not proposing that we actually decide whether to move to git and github now, but I am just curious how people would feel. We had a conversation about this a few years ago and it was quite contentious at the time. Since then, I believe a number of us have started using git and github for most of our work. And there are a number of developers using git-svn to develop numpy now. So I was curious to get a feeling for what people would think about it, if we moved to git. (I don't want to rehash the arguments for the move.) I think we are ready for such a move. Someone should think about the implications, though (with Trac integration, check-in mailings, etc.) and make sure we get something we all like. Somebody probably has thought through all of these things already, though. Awesome, if there's enough interest I'll help Jarrod out on the NEP. I've been looking at GitHub's Trac integration, and it seems that we should be able to have the same level of integration with the bugtracker as we currently do. Their plugin is available here: http://github.com/davglass/github-trac/ The SVN-checkout functionality should take care of the build bot. As a bonus, we no longer have to administrate user accounts. Converting the SVN repo to Git should pose no problem. Regards Stéfan ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion You are all probably aware of this, but I just wanted it said. I do understand the advantage of being able to pull from someone's Python 3 branch (like scipy) as well as some of the more experimental side like the proposed refactoring. There could (and should) be a github repo on scipy.org. This would be used as the reference. Something that needs being discussed on is how people will work together - going to fulltime git means a change in how to interact compared to git-svn (no more rebase to make changes visible, etc...). I am wondering whether we should follow the pull model - maybe through a gateway, I am not sure: http://www.selenic.com/pipermail/mercurial/2008-July/020116.html It also provides a common foundation to troubleshoot problems (of course you don't see it because you don't have that branch...). Yet I do understand that any release candidate can be pulled from any tree (as happens with the Linux kernel) and that this should be more of guide than a fixed rule. The whole point of DVCS is that it is trivial to set up an official repo where the releases are done from, without preventing people to work as they see fit. cheers, David ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
Hi Jarrod, I'm in favour of the switch, though I don't use Windows. I find git far more convenient to use than SVN; I've been using git-svn, and in spite of the headaches it's caused me I still prefer it to raw SVN. It seems to me that git's flexibility in how people collaborate means we can do a certain amount of figuring out after the switch. My experience with a small project has been that anyone who wants to make major changes just clones the repository on github and makes the changes; then we email the main author to ask him to pull particular branches into the main repo. It works well enough. Anne On 26 May 2010 19:47, Jarrod Millman mill...@berkeley.edu wrote: Hello, I changed the subject line for this thread, since I didn't want to hijack another thread. Anyway, I am not proposing that we actually decide whether to move to git and github now, but I am just curious how people would feel. We had a conversation about this a few years ago and it was quite contentious at the time. Since then, I believe a number of us have started using git and github for most of our work. And there are a number of developers using git-svn to develop numpy now. So I was curious to get a feeling for what people would think about it, if we moved to git. (I don't want to rehash the arguments for the move.) Anyway, Chuck listed the main concerns we had previously when we discussed moving from svn to git. See the discussion below. Are there any other concerns? Am I right in thinking that most of the developers would prefer git at this point? Or are there still a number of developers who would prefer using svn still? On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: I think the main problem has been windows compatibility. Git is best from the command line whereas the windows command line is an afterthought. Another box that needs a check-mark is the buildbot. If svn clients are supported then it may be that neither of those are going to be a problem. I was under the impression that there were a number of decent git clients for Windows now, but I don't know anyone who develops on Windows. Are there any NumPy developers who use Windows who could check out the current situation? Pulling from github with an svn client works very well, so buildbot could continue working as is: http://github.com/blog/626-announcing-svn-support And if it turns out the Windows clients are still not good enough, we could look into the recently add svn write support to github: http://github.com/blog/644-subversion-write-support No need for us to make any changes immediately. I am just curious how people would feel about it at this point. Jarrod ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
I wouldn't call myself a developer, but I have been wanting to contribute recently. I learned source control with svn, so I am much more comfortable with it. My one attempt at using git for a personal project ended in failure. Then I discovered this guide, Git-SVN Crash Course: http://git.or.cz/course/svn.html I hope this would be useful to other subversioners like me who might be hesistant to switch to git. Ben Root On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Jarrod Millman mill...@berkeley.eduwrote: Hello, I changed the subject line for this thread, since I didn't want to hijack another thread. Anyway, I am not proposing that we actually decide whether to move to git and github now, but I am just curious how people would feel. We had a conversation about this a few years ago and it was quite contentious at the time. Since then, I believe a number of us have started using git and github for most of our work. And there are a number of developers using git-svn to develop numpy now. So I was curious to get a feeling for what people would think about it, if we moved to git. (I don't want to rehash the arguments for the move.) Anyway, Chuck listed the main concerns we had previously when we discussed moving from svn to git. See the discussion below. Are there any other concerns? Am I right in thinking that most of the developers would prefer git at this point? Or are there still a number of developers who would prefer using svn still? On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: I think the main problem has been windows compatibility. Git is best from the command line whereas the windows command line is an afterthought. Another box that needs a check-mark is the buildbot. If svn clients are supported then it may be that neither of those are going to be a problem. I was under the impression that there were a number of decent git clients for Windows now, but I don't know anyone who develops on Windows. Are there any NumPy developers who use Windows who could check out the current situation? Pulling from github with an svn client works very well, so buildbot could continue working as is: http://github.com/blog/626-announcing-svn-support And if it turns out the Windows clients are still not good enough, we could look into the recently add svn write support to github: http://github.com/blog/644-subversion-write-support No need for us to make any changes immediately. I am just curious how people would feel about it at this point. Jarrod ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
Hi, It seems to me that git's flexibility in how people collaborate means we can do a certain amount of figuring out after the switch. This is very well said and true to our recent experience with nipy and ipython: http://github.com/ipython/ipython http://github.com/nipy/nipy My experience with a small project has been that anyone who wants to make major changes just clones the repository on github and makes the changes; then we email the main author to ask him to pull particular branches into the main repo. It works well enough. That's the model we've gone for in nipy and ipython too. We wrote it up in a workflow doc project. Here are the example docs giving the git workflow for ipython: https://cirl.berkeley.edu/mb312/gitwash/ and in particular: https://cirl.berkeley.edu/mb312/gitwash/development_workflow.html Cheers, Matthew ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 8:08 PM, Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.com wrote: That's the model we've gone for in nipy and ipython too. We wrote it up in a workflow doc project. Here are the example docs giving the git workflow for ipython: https://cirl.berkeley.edu/mb312/gitwash/ and in particular: https://cirl.berkeley.edu/mb312/gitwash/development_workflow.html I would highly recommend using this workflow. Ideally, we should use the same git workflow for all the scipy-related projects. That way developers can switch between projects without having to switch workflows. The model that Matthew and Fernando developed for nipy and ipython seem like a very reasonable place to start. ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:49 PM, Jarrod Millman mill...@berkeley.eduwrote: On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 8:08 PM, Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.com wrote: That's the model we've gone for in nipy and ipython too. We wrote it up in a workflow doc project. Here are the example docs giving the git workflow for ipython: https://cirl.berkeley.edu/mb312/gitwash/ and in particular: https://cirl.berkeley.edu/mb312/gitwash/development_workflow.html I would highly recommend using this workflow. Ideally, we should use the same git workflow for all the scipy-related projects. That way developers can switch between projects without having to switch workflows. The model that Matthew and Fernando developed for nipy and ipython seem like a very reasonable place to start. __ I wouldn't. Who is going to be the gate keeper and pull the stuff? No vacations for him/her, on 24 hour call, yes? They might as well run a dairy. And do we really want all pull requests cross-posted to the list? Linus works full time as gatekeeper for Linux and gets paid for the effort. I think a central repository model would work better for us. Chuck ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Benjamin Root ben.r...@ou.edu wrote: I wouldn't call myself a developer, but I have been wanting to contribute recently. I learned source control with svn, so I am much more comfortable with it. My one attempt at using git for a personal project ended in failure. Then I discovered this guide, Git-SVN Crash Course: http://git.or.cz/course/svn.html I hope this would be useful to other subversioners like me who might be hesistant to switch to git. Thanks for the link. If we move to git, we will also develop a suggested workflow and post it online so that anyone should be able to just cut-and-paste the git commands. As Matthew mentioned both ipython and nipy have adopted the same workflow: https://cirl.berkeley.edu/mb312/gitwash/development_workflow.html The idea of the above document is not to teach people how to use git in general, but just for the specific way git is used in the development workflow for nipy and ipython. If you have some time to look at the ipython/nipy workflow, it would be useful to know how helpful you think a document like this would be for SVNers switching to git. If you have any other suggestions for what the NEP should include, please let us know. Thanks, Jarrod PS. I am glad to hear that you are interested in contributing to NumPy development. If you are looking for a good place to start, you may want to consider helping with the 2010 summer documentation marathon or submitting a patch to address an open ticket. ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On 27 May 2010 01:22, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:49 PM, Jarrod Millman mill...@berkeley.edu wrote: On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 8:08 PM, Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.com wrote: That's the model we've gone for in nipy and ipython too. We wrote it up in a workflow doc project. Here are the example docs giving the git workflow for ipython: https://cirl.berkeley.edu/mb312/gitwash/ and in particular: https://cirl.berkeley.edu/mb312/gitwash/development_workflow.html I would highly recommend using this workflow. Ideally, we should use the same git workflow for all the scipy-related projects. That way developers can switch between projects without having to switch workflows. The model that Matthew and Fernando developed for nipy and ipython seem like a very reasonable place to start. __ I wouldn't. Who is going to be the gate keeper and pull the stuff? No vacations for him/her, on 24 hour call, yes? They might as well run a dairy. And do we really want all pull requests cross-posted to the list? Linus works full time as gatekeeper for Linux and gets paid for the effort. I think a central repository model would work better for us. I don't think this is as big a problem as it sounds. If the gatekeeper takes a week-long vacation, so what? People keep working on their changes independently and they can get merged when the gatekeeper gets around to it. If they want to accelerate the ultimate merging they can pull the central repository into their own and resolve all conflicts, so that the pull into the central repository goes smoothly. If the gatekeeper's away and the users want to swap patches, well, they just pull from each other's public git repositories. Anne Chuck ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
Hi, Linux has Linus, ipython has Fernando, nipy has... well, I'm sure it is somebody. Numpy and Scipy no longer have a central figure and I like it that way. There is no reason that DVCS has to inevitably lead to a central authority. I think I was trying to say that the way it looks as if it will be - before you try it - is very different from the way it actually is when you get there. Anne put the idea very well - but I still think it is very hard to understand, without trying it, just how liberating the workflow is from anxieties about central authorities and so on.You can just get on with what you want to do, talk with or merge from whoever you want, and the whole development process becomes much more fluid and productive. And I know that sounds chaotic but - it just works. Really really well. See you, Matthew ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On 27 May 2010 01:55, Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Linux has Linus, ipython has Fernando, nipy has... well, I'm sure it is somebody. Numpy and Scipy no longer have a central figure and I like it that way. There is no reason that DVCS has to inevitably lead to a central authority. I think I was trying to say that the way it looks as if it will be - before you try it - is very different from the way it actually is when you get there. Anne put the idea very well - but I still think it is very hard to understand, without trying it, just how liberating the workflow is from anxieties about central authorities and so on. You can just get on with what you want to do, talk with or merge from whoever you want, and the whole development process becomes much more fluid and productive. And I know that sounds chaotic but - it just works. Really really well. One way to think of it is that there is no main line of development. The only time the central repository needs to pull from the others is when a release is being prepared. As it stands we do have a single release manager, though it's not necessarily the same for each version. So if we wanted, they could just go and pull and merge the repositories of everyone who's made a useful change, then release the results. Of course, this will be vastly easier if all those other people have already merged each other's results (into different branches if appropriate). But just like now, it's the release manager's decision which changes end up in the next version. This is not the only way to do git development; it's the only one I have experience with, so I can't speak for the effectiveness of others. But I have no doubt that we can find some way that works, and I don't think we necessarily need to decide what that is any time soon. Anne See you, Matthew ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 11:06 PM, Anne Archibald aarch...@physics.mcgill.ca wrote: On 27 May 2010 01:55, Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Linux has Linus, ipython has Fernando, nipy has... well, I'm sure it is somebody. Numpy and Scipy no longer have a central figure and I like it that way. There is no reason that DVCS has to inevitably lead to a central authority. I think I was trying to say that the way it looks as if it will be - before you try it - is very different from the way it actually is when you get there. Anne put the idea very well - but I still think it is very hard to understand, without trying it, just how liberating the workflow is from anxieties about central authorities and so on.You can just get on with what you want to do, talk with or merge from whoever you want, and the whole development process becomes much more fluid and productive. And I know that sounds chaotic but - it just works. Really really well. One way to think of it is that there is no main line of development. The only time the central repository needs to pull from the others is when a release is being prepared. As it stands we do have a single release manager, though it's not necessarily the same for each version. So if we wanted, they could just go and pull and merge the repositories of everyone who's made a useful change, then release the results. Of course, this will be vastly easier if all those other people have already merged each other's results (into different branches if appropriate). But just like now, it's the release manager's decision which changes end up in the next version. No, at this point we don't have a release manager, we haven't since 1.2. We have people who do the builds and put them up on sourceforge, but they aren't release managers, they don't decide what is in the release or organise the effort. We haven't had a central figure since Travis got a real job ;) And now David has a real job too. I'm just pointing out that that projects like Linux and IPython have central figures because the originators are still active in the development. Let me put it this way, right now, who would you choose to pull the changes and release the official version? Chuck ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On 05/27/2010 02:16 PM, Charles R Harris wrote: On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 11:06 PM, Anne Archibald aarch...@physics.mcgill.ca mailto:aarch...@physics.mcgill.ca wrote: On 27 May 2010 01:55, Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.com mailto:matthew.br...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Linux has Linus, ipython has Fernando, nipy has... well, I'm sure it is somebody. Numpy and Scipy no longer have a central figure and I like it that way. There is no reason that DVCS has to inevitably lead to a central authority. I think I was trying to say that the way it looks as if it will be - before you try it - is very different from the way it actually is when you get there. Anne put the idea very well - but I still think it is very hard to understand, without trying it, just how liberating the workflow is from anxieties about central authorities and so on. You can just get on with what you want to do, talk with or merge from whoever you want, and the whole development process becomes much more fluid and productive. And I know that sounds chaotic but - it just works. Really really well. One way to think of it is that there is no main line of development. The only time the central repository needs to pull from the others is when a release is being prepared. As it stands we do have a single release manager, though it's not necessarily the same for each version. So if we wanted, they could just go and pull and merge the repositories of everyone who's made a useful change, then release the results. Of course, this will be vastly easier if all those other people have already merged each other's results (into different branches if appropriate). But just like now, it's the release manager's decision which changes end up in the next version. No, at this point we don't have a release manager, we haven't since 1.2. We have people who do the builds and put them up on sourceforge, but they aren't release managers, they don't decide what is in the release or organise the effort. We haven't had a central figure since Travis got a real job ;) And now David has a real job too. I'm just pointing out that that projects like Linux and IPython have central figures because the originators are still active in the development. Let me put it this way, right now, who would you choose to pull the changes and release the official version? Ralf is the release manager, and for deciding what goes into the release, we do just as we do now. For small changes which do not warrant discussion, they would be handled through pull requests in github at first, but we can improve after that (for example having an automatic gatekeeper which only pulls something that would at least compile and pass the test on a linux machine). David ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
Hi, No, at this point we don't have a release manager, we haven't since 1.2. We have people who do the builds and put them up on sourceforge, but they aren't release managers, they don't decide what is in the release or organise the effort. We haven't had a central figure since Travis got a real job ;) And now David has a real job too. I'm just pointing out that that projects like Linux and IPython have central figures because the originators are still active in the development. Let me put it this way, right now, who would you choose to pull the changes and release the official version? OK - for nipy - we have - I think - 5 people who can commit into the main repository. Any one of those 5 people can review someone's work, and commit into the main repository.My guess is - with numpy - there would be some number of people with the same permissions - I imagine you among them. But the rule is - No-one commits into the main repo without someone reviewing and agreeing the work Any trusted person can review. But the point is: No development in the main repo. Merges only. Why? Let's flip your question the other way round. You are saying - I want to continue (as for SVN) to develop in the main repo. But the main repo is where everyone merges from. That means that a) It makes it much harder for anyone to review your changes because they are mixed up in a lot of other changes and b) You force everyone following numpy to adopt your changes In practice - that means that you make it harder for others by making them follow your line of development when they may not want to - until it's ready. I guess you'd agree that code review is essential to good code quality - both for improving code - and for teaching. It encourages new developers because they know their work will be checked. It helps developers learn the coding guidelines and to share good practice. It helps the developers have a broad knowledge of the code base. With SVN / central repo development - that's really hard - because all the development lines get mixed up as people work in different places. With git / DVCS - it suddenly becomes absolutely natural. I think that's why people like Joel Spolsy say stuff like 'This is possibly the biggest advance in software development technology in the ten years I’ve been writing articles here.' : http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Please - try it - see - I am absolutely sure you'll love it after a very short time... Matthew ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 11:28 PM, David da...@silveregg.co.jp wrote: On 05/27/2010 02:16 PM, Charles R Harris wrote: On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 11:06 PM, Anne Archibald aarch...@physics.mcgill.ca mailto:aarch...@physics.mcgill.ca wrote: On 27 May 2010 01:55, Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.com mailto:matthew.br...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Linux has Linus, ipython has Fernando, nipy has... well, I'm sure it is somebody. Numpy and Scipy no longer have a central figure and I like it that way. There is no reason that DVCS has to inevitably lead to a central authority. I think I was trying to say that the way it looks as if it will be - before you try it - is very different from the way it actually is when you get there. Anne put the idea very well - but I still think it is very hard to understand, without trying it, just how liberating the workflow is from anxieties about central authorities and so on. You can just get on with what you want to do, talk with or merge from whoever you want, and the whole development process becomes much more fluid and productive. And I know that sounds chaotic but - it just works. Really really well. One way to think of it is that there is no main line of development. The only time the central repository needs to pull from the others is when a release is being prepared. As it stands we do have a single release manager, though it's not necessarily the same for each version. So if we wanted, they could just go and pull and merge the repositories of everyone who's made a useful change, then release the results. Of course, this will be vastly easier if all those other people have already merged each other's results (into different branches if appropriate). But just like now, it's the release manager's decision which changes end up in the next version. No, at this point we don't have a release manager, we haven't since 1.2. We have people who do the builds and put them up on sourceforge, but they aren't release managers, they don't decide what is in the release or organise the effort. We haven't had a central figure since Travis got a real job ;) And now David has a real job too. I'm just pointing out that that projects like Linux and IPython have central figures because the originators are still active in the development. Let me put it this way, right now, who would you choose to pull the changes and release the official version? Ralf is the release manager, and for deciding what goes into the release, we do just as we do now. For small changes which do not warrant discussion, they would be handled through pull requests in github at first, but we can improve after that (for example having an automatic gatekeeper which only pulls something that would at least compile and pass the test on a linux machine). So you are saying that Ralf has to manage all the pull requests? Have you asked Ralf about that? An automatic gatekeeper is pretty much a central repository, as I was suggesting. Chuck ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On 05/27/2010 02:34 PM, Charles R Harris wrote: An automatic gatekeeper is pretty much a central repository, as I was suggesting. I don't understand how centraly repository comes into this discussion - nobody has been arguing against it. The question is whether we would continue to push individual commits to it directly (push), or we should present branches to a gatekeeper. I would suggest that you look on how people do it in projects using git, there are countless ressources on how to do it, and it has worked very well for pretty much every project. I can't see how numpy would be so different that it would require something different, especially without having tried it first. If the pull model really fails, then we can always change. cheers, David ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 11:34 PM, Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.comwrote: Hi, No, at this point we don't have a release manager, we haven't since 1.2. We have people who do the builds and put them up on sourceforge, but they aren't release managers, they don't decide what is in the release or organise the effort. We haven't had a central figure since Travis got a real job ;) And now David has a real job too. I'm just pointing out that that projects like Linux and IPython have central figures because the originators are still active in the development. Let me put it this way, right now, who would you choose to pull the changes and release the official version? OK - for nipy - we have - I think - 5 people who can commit into the main repository. Any one of those 5 people can review someone's work, and commit into the main repository.My guess is - with numpy - there would be some number of people with the same permissions - I imagine you among them. But the rule is - No-one commits into the main repo without someone reviewing and agreeing the work Any trusted person can review. But the point is: No development in the main repo. Merges only. Why? Let's flip your question the other way round. You are saying - I want to continue (as for SVN) to develop in the main repo. No, I am saying we need at least five people who can commit to the main repo. That is the central repository model. But the main repo is where everyone merges from. That means that a) It makes it much harder for anyone to review your changes because they are mixed up in a lot of other changes and b) You force everyone following numpy to adopt your changes In practice - that means that you make it harder for others by making them follow your line of development when they may not want to - until it's ready. Review is fine, and it would be nice if more people were reviewing code. At the moment I think it is just Pauli, Stefan, and myself. I guess you'd agree that code review is essential to good code quality - both for improving code - and for teaching. It encourages new developers because they know their work will be checked. It helps developers learn the coding guidelines and to share good practice. It helps the developers have a broad knowledge of the code base. With SVN / central repo development - that's really hard - because all the development lines get mixed up as people work in different places. But a repo that five folks can commit to *is* a central repository, by definition. DVCS and central repository are orthogonal concepts. With git / DVCS - it suddenly becomes absolutely natural. I think that's why people like Joel Spolsy say stuff like 'This is possibly the biggest advance in software development technology in the ten years I’ve been writing articles here.' : http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Please - try it - see - I am absolutely sure you'll love it after a very short time... Chuck ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
Hi, No, I am saying we need at least five people who can commit to the main repo. That is the central repository model. Excellent - yes - that's reasonable. Then if you also agree to this: No development in the main repo. Merges only. then we're all in full agreement. Review is fine, and it would be nice if more people were reviewing code. At the moment I think it is just Pauli, Stefan, and myself. Right - and that is partly because it so much harder to do review with the model that we have at the moment, and partly because we don't yet have the tradition in numpy of review. I think - honestly - if we're going to be able to encourage and train new developers - we'll have to get on that as soon as we can... See you, Matthew ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
Re: [Numpy-discussion] curious about how people would feel about moving to github
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 11:55 PM, Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.comwrote: Hi, No, I am saying we need at least five people who can commit to the main repo. That is the central repository model. Excellent - yes - that's reasonable. Then if you also agree to this: No development in the main repo. Merges only. then we're all in full agreement. Review is fine, and it would be nice if more people were reviewing code. At the moment I think it is just Pauli, Stefan, and myself. Right - and that is partly because it so much harder to do review with the model that we have at the moment, and partly because we don't yet have the tradition in numpy of review. I think - honestly - if we're going to be able to encourage and train new developers - we'll have to get on that as soon as we can... See you, Matthew ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion ___ NumPy-Discussion mailing list NumPy-Discussion@scipy.org http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
