RE: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Patrick Santinello]

So to recap the final score in the Birding Super Bowl of Whining

 

Indignant casual birder 14

Righteous photographers who cause no harm 9

Elitist birders who withhold sightings 7

Sensitive birders who see all sides 17

Pushy photographers who flush Owls 0

Silent lurkers who enjoy reading posts about birds 176,894

 

Can't we get back to birds??

 

Sorry but, is this subject not beaten to death at this point?..please accept
my humorous suggestion to move on.

 

Thanks.

Patrick in Eastport

 

From: bounce-39770075-13703...@list.cornell.edu
[mailto:bounce-39770075-13703...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Nadine
Scarpa
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 3:40 PM
To: Jim Osterlund
Cc: NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

 

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Jim Osterlund 
wrote:

"Capitalism is the American way, and I'm all for it.  So let's consider a
capitalistic approach to the problem.  Let's boycott, and advocate
boycotting to others, the sale of those photos.  Let's point out to the
editors of publications we see with photos that cause us concern exactly
what our concerns are and that our concerns might lead us to ceasing to
subscribe. "

 

The sale of WHICH photos?  How on earth are you going to know which photos
were taken "appropriately" (without causing a disturbance to the subject)
and which were taken "inappropriately"?  MANY photographers have amazingly
huge lenses that allow for shots from long distances - so you would have no
way to know how close a photo was taken.

 

Now it appears you may be punishing ALL photographers for the actions of a
few.

 

If you know a specific NAME of a photographer who acts inappropriately while
taking wildlife photos, go ahead and boycott them.  However, many
photographers sell their photos to other companies, so that wouldn't even
work.

 

There is no good way to do this, other than to try and educate the
photographers and birders who WANT to be educated, and report the rest to
the appropriate authorities.

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Jim Osterlund 
wrote:

Response I got from NYSDEC echos that given to another who's posted here.
It was basically advise to contact the appropriate ECO, but it included a
discouraging addition;  "Yes harassing wildlife is a violation of the ECL.
Proving it and prosecuting it is another issue." 

 

So, we've heard anecdotes, opinions, bile, ridicule and humor, but little
has been gained beyond exposing the old-school secret-society element.  That
has been useful to me personally.  it has been my wont to accurately show
locations with my posts and even to supplement the posts of others;  I will
discontinue that practice lest I incur reprisal for offending them.

 

One aspect of the original problem has gone untouched, curiously enough, and
goes to the distinction between "them" and "us".  "We" are amateurs,
hobbyists;  even those of us with credentials are to be so considered
because we don't get paid for it.  When we get a particularly good sighting
or photograph, we take it home and cherish it.  "They" copyright and post
their photos, offering them for sale.  "We" try for the best view or shot we
can get, the more to cherish;  "they" try for the better shot to increase
its value.  "They" are at work;  "we" are at play.  Things like codes of
ethics, consideration, good manners;  these are for the likes of "us", and
not for professionals at work.

 

Capitalism is the American way, and I'm all for it.  So let's consider a
capitalistic approach to the problem.  Let's boycott, and advocate
boycotting to others, the sale of those photos.  Let's point out to the
editors of publications we see with photos that cause us concern exactly
what our concerns are and that our concerns might lead us to ceasing to
subscribe.  Let word of this spread amongst "them";  we saw in an anecdote
posted earlier that a photographer doing wrong responded immediately and
correctly - to word from another photographer.

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Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Nadine Scarpa]

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Jim Osterlund wrote:

"Capitalism is the American way, and I'm all for it.  So let's consider a
capitalistic approach to the problem.  Let's boycott, and advocate
boycotting to others, the sale of those photos.  Let's point out to the
editors of publications we see with photos that cause us concern exactly
what our concerns are and that our concerns might lead us to ceasing to
subscribe. "

The sale of WHICH photos?  How on earth are you going to know which photos
were taken "appropriately" (without causing a disturbance to the subject)
and which were taken "inappropriately"?  MANY photographers have amazingly
huge lenses that allow for shots from long distances - so you would have no
way to know how close a photo was taken.

Now it appears you may be punishing ALL photographers for the actions of a
few.

If you know a specific NAME of a photographer who acts inappropriately
while taking wildlife photos, go ahead and boycott them.  However, many
photographers sell their photos to other companies, so that wouldn't even
work.

There is no good way to do this, other than to try and educate the
photographers and birders who WANT to be educated, and report the rest to
the appropriate authorities.
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Jim Osterlund wrote:

> Response I got from NYSDEC echos that given to another who's posted here.
>  It was basically advise to contact the appropriate ECO, but it included a
> discouraging addition;  "Yes harassing wildlife is a violation of the
> ECL. Proving it and prosecuting it is another issue."
>
> So, we've heard anecdotes, opinions, bile, ridicule and humor, but little
> has been gained beyond exposing the old-school secret-society element.
>  That has been useful to me personally.  it has been my wont to accurately
> show locations with my posts and even to supplement the posts of others;  I
> will discontinue that practice lest I incur reprisal for offending them.
>
> One aspect of the original problem has gone untouched, curiously enough,
> and goes to the distinction between "them" and "us".  "We" are amateurs,
> hobbyists;  even those of us with credentials are to be so considered
> because we don't get paid for it.  When we get a particularly good sighting
> or photograph, we take it home and cherish it.  "They" copyright and post
> their photos, offering them for sale.  "We" try for the best view or shot
> we can get, the more to cherish;  "they" try for the better shot to
> increase its value.  "They" are at work;  "we" are at play.  Things like
> codes of ethics, consideration, good manners;  these are for the likes of
> "us", and not for professionals at work.
>
> Capitalism is the American way, and I'm all for it.  So let's consider a
> capitalistic approach to the problem.  Let's boycott, and advocate
> boycotting to others, the sale of those photos.  Let's point out to the
> editors of publications we see with photos that cause us concern exactly
> what our concerns are and that our concerns might lead us to ceasing to
> subscribe.  Let word of this spread amongst "them";  we saw in an anecdote
> posted earlier that a photographer doing wrong responded immediately and
> correctly - to word from another photographer.
> --
> *NYSbirds-L List Info:*
> Welcome and Basics 
> Rules and Information 
> Subscribe, Configuration and 
> Leave
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> The Mail 
> Archive
> Surfbirds 
> BirdingOnThe.Net 
> *Please submit your observations to **eBird*
> *!*
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Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Jim Osterlund]

Response I got from NYSDEC echos that given to another who's posted  
here.  It was basically advise to contact the appropriate ECO, but it  
included a discouraging addition;  "Yes harassing wildlife is a  
violation of the ECL. Proving it and prosecuting it is another issue."

So, we've heard anecdotes, opinions, bile, ridicule and humor, but  
little has been gained beyond exposing the old-school secret-society  
element.  That has been useful to me personally.  it has been my wont  
to accurately show locations with my posts and even to supplement the  
posts of others;  I will discontinue that practice lest I incur  
reprisal for offending them.

One aspect of the original problem has gone untouched, curiously  
enough, and goes to the distinction between "them" and "us".  "We" are  
amateurs, hobbyists;  even those of us with credentials are to be so  
considered because we don't get paid for it.  When we get a  
particularly good sighting or photograph, we take it home and cherish  
it.  "They" copyright and post their photos, offering them for sale.   
"We" try for the best view or shot we can get, the more to cherish;   
"they" try for the better shot to increase its value.  "They" are at  
work;  "we" are at play.  Things like codes of ethics, consideration,  
good manners;  these are for the likes of "us", and not for  
professionals at work.

Capitalism is the American way, and I'm all for it.  So let's consider  
a capitalistic approach to the problem.  Let's boycott, and advocate  
boycotting to others, the sale of those photos.  Let's point out to  
the editors of publications we see with photos that cause us concern  
exactly what our concerns are and that our concerns might lead us to  
ceasing to subscribe.  Let word of this spread amongst "them";  we saw  
in an anecdote posted earlier that a photographer doing wrong  
responded immediately and correctly - to word from another photographer.

--

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Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Jim Osterlund]

Response I got from NYSDEC echos that given to another who's posted  
here.  It was basically advise to contact the appropriate ECO, but it  
included a discouraging addition;  Yes harassing wildlife is a  
violation of the ECL. Proving it and prosecuting it is another issue.

So, we've heard anecdotes, opinions, bile, ridicule and humor, but  
little has been gained beyond exposing the old-school secret-society  
element.  That has been useful to me personally.  it has been my wont  
to accurately show locations with my posts and even to supplement the  
posts of others;  I will discontinue that practice lest I incur  
reprisal for offending them.

One aspect of the original problem has gone untouched, curiously  
enough, and goes to the distinction between them and us.  We are  
amateurs, hobbyists;  even those of us with credentials are to be so  
considered because we don't get paid for it.  When we get a  
particularly good sighting or photograph, we take it home and cherish  
it.  They copyright and post their photos, offering them for sale.   
We try for the best view or shot we can get, the more to cherish;   
they try for the better shot to increase its value.  They are at  
work;  we are at play.  Things like codes of ethics, consideration,  
good manners;  these are for the likes of us, and not for  
professionals at work.

Capitalism is the American way, and I'm all for it.  So let's consider  
a capitalistic approach to the problem.  Let's boycott, and advocate  
boycotting to others, the sale of those photos.  Let's point out to  
the editors of publications we see with photos that cause us concern  
exactly what our concerns are and that our concerns might lead us to  
ceasing to subscribe.  Let word of this spread amongst them;  we saw  
in an anecdote posted earlier that a photographer doing wrong  
responded immediately and correctly - to word from another photographer.

--

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http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm

ARCHIVES:
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2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L
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Please submit your observations to eBird:
http://ebird.org/content/ebird/

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RE: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Patrick Santinello]

So to recap the final score in the Birding Super Bowl of Whining

 

Indignant casual birder 14

Righteous photographers who cause no harm 9

Elitist birders who withhold sightings 7

Sensitive birders who see all sides 17

Pushy photographers who flush Owls 0

Silent lurkers who enjoy reading posts about birds 176,894

 

Can't we get back to birds??

 

Sorry but, is this subject not beaten to death at this point?..please accept
my humorous suggestion to move on.

 

Thanks.

Patrick in Eastport

 

From: bounce-39770075-13703...@list.cornell.edu
[mailto:bounce-39770075-13703...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Nadine
Scarpa
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 3:40 PM
To: Jim Osterlund
Cc: NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

 

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Jim Osterlund james...@optonline.net
wrote:

Capitalism is the American way, and I'm all for it.  So let's consider a
capitalistic approach to the problem.  Let's boycott, and advocate
boycotting to others, the sale of those photos.  Let's point out to the
editors of publications we see with photos that cause us concern exactly
what our concerns are and that our concerns might lead us to ceasing to
subscribe. 

 

The sale of WHICH photos?  How on earth are you going to know which photos
were taken appropriately (without causing a disturbance to the subject)
and which were taken inappropriately?  MANY photographers have amazingly
huge lenses that allow for shots from long distances - so you would have no
way to know how close a photo was taken.

 

Now it appears you may be punishing ALL photographers for the actions of a
few.

 

If you know a specific NAME of a photographer who acts inappropriately while
taking wildlife photos, go ahead and boycott them.  However, many
photographers sell their photos to other companies, so that wouldn't even
work.

 

There is no good way to do this, other than to try and educate the
photographers and birders who WANT to be educated, and report the rest to
the appropriate authorities.

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Jim Osterlund james...@optonline.net
wrote:

Response I got from NYSDEC echos that given to another who's posted here.
It was basically advise to contact the appropriate ECO, but it included a
discouraging addition;  Yes harassing wildlife is a violation of the ECL.
Proving it and prosecuting it is another issue. 

 

So, we've heard anecdotes, opinions, bile, ridicule and humor, but little
has been gained beyond exposing the old-school secret-society element.  That
has been useful to me personally.  it has been my wont to accurately show
locations with my posts and even to supplement the posts of others;  I will
discontinue that practice lest I incur reprisal for offending them.

 

One aspect of the original problem has gone untouched, curiously enough, and
goes to the distinction between them and us.  We are amateurs,
hobbyists;  even those of us with credentials are to be so considered
because we don't get paid for it.  When we get a particularly good sighting
or photograph, we take it home and cherish it.  They copyright and post
their photos, offering them for sale.  We try for the best view or shot we
can get, the more to cherish;  they try for the better shot to increase
its value.  They are at work;  we are at play.  Things like codes of
ethics, consideration, good manners;  these are for the likes of us, and
not for professionals at work.

 

Capitalism is the American way, and I'm all for it.  So let's consider a
capitalistic approach to the problem.  Let's boycott, and advocate
boycotting to others, the sale of those photos.  Let's point out to the
editors of publications we see with photos that cause us concern exactly
what our concerns are and that our concerns might lead us to ceasing to
subscribe.  Let word of this spread amongst them;  we saw in an anecdote
posted earlier that a photographer doing wrong responded immediately and
correctly - to word from another photographer.

--

NYSbirds-L List Info:

 http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME Welcome and Basics 

 http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES Rules and Information 

 http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm
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Please submit your observations to  http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ eBird!

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RE: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Mark Barriger]

The issue here is how to protect owls from being harassed by unethical and just 
plain pathetic photographers/birders. Not whether we should chase birds or 
whether we should report rare birds. So not sure why we got turned in that 
direction but maybe we can focus back on the main problem.
I'm tired of hearing or reading someone saying "it's not fair that we get 
punished just because of a few bad apples". First of all it's not a few bad 
apples it's a bunch and the number is growing every year. It's 2012 and most 
people have a computer, smart phone, and a camera and at 10:30am an owl will be 
reported and by noon there's a mob of people coming and going and thats when 
you get your simple minded morons who show up to get an up close and personal 
shot or view of the owl. You can kick them off the list, you can report they're 
info on the list serve and you can confront them but the fact is we are not 
going to be able to defend these birds 24hrs a day and in fact I'm positive 
that we only observe a small amount of this nonsense. The "serious" birders 
know this because we have spent a great deal of time out in the field and have 
seen it first hand way to many times. I have a family, a full time job, and 
plenty of things to do and when I finally get time to bird watch and enjoy the 
owls I for one am sick and tired of it being ruined.
If people insist on reporting them I liked the suggestion of listing what you 
saw but leave out the specifics. If you want to see that Snowy Owl at Jones 
Beach, that Barred Owl in Central Park, or that Long-eared Owl in Pelham Bay 
put in the foot work and look for it. First of all the Owls not always going to 
be right where it was last seen, you'll probably sharpen up your birding 
skills, and most importantly will cut down on some of the traffic and relieve 
some stress on the birds.
By not reporting the owls doesn't mean keep it quiet but keep it off the net. 
Before birdingonthenet came along we still found owls and word always spread 
and it's not going to totally solve the problem but it would be a huge help. 
Besides half of the excitement is getting your hands dirty, freezing your butt 
off, and finally tracking one down. Thats what bird watching is all about:)

 
 
Mark Barriger
Wallingford, CT



 


> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:58:02 -0500
> From: james...@optonline.net
> Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds
> To: NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu
> 
> Fred speaks well, and, indeed, we need to gather all these thoughts, 
> and, if nothing else, state clearly and succinctly what the problem 
> is. To contribute to this, thinking there might be significant legal 
> aspects to consider, I've placed inquiry with NYSDEC, thinking them 
> the most likely authority on such subjects. I'll post further of 
> anything useful that comes from reply.
> 
> 
> --
> 
> NYSbirds-L List Info:
> http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME
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> 
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> 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L
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> 
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RE: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Kevin J. McGowan]

Seriously?  Get a grip people.  Someone already mentioned how owls bring out 
the worst in people, and I agree.  The topic always sets off a flurry of 
sanctimonious posts from people trying to tell everyone else what to do.

Mention was already made of joggers and dog walkers flushing the owls in the 
same place.  I'd rather have a herd of photographers present than one dog 
running off leash or a family of picnickers with a little kid who likes to 
chase gulls.  

It's not like these owls are coming to some pristine wilderness, they're coming 
where people live and there is nothing to be done about that.  Walking in a 
closed area or trespassing?  Wrong, wrong, wrong.  But being the only person 
avoiding approaching an owl in a public space is kind of silly.

Bottom line - have respect, for the birds, for the law, and for other people 
who might have different desires than you.

And let me suggest that getting more public to see Snowy Owls this winter 
(preferably in a spotting scope of a friendly birder) is a huge potential 
educational opportunity.  Global warming?  Why should I care?  Oh, you mean 
those owls might be hurt?  Boom, personal connection.  Just a thought.

Kevin

Kevin J. McGowan
Ithaca, NY
k...@cornell.edu
607-254-2452


-Original Message-
From: bounce-39537336-3714...@list.cornell.edu 
[mailto:bounce-39537336-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Jim Osterlund
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:58 PM
To: NYSBIRDS-L
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

Fred speaks well, and, indeed, we need to gather all these thoughts,  
and, if nothing else, state clearly and succinctly what the problem  
is.  To contribute to this, thinking there might be significant legal  
aspects to consider, I've placed inquiry with NYSDEC, thinking them  
the most likely authority on such subjects.  I'll post further of  
anything useful that comes from reply.


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Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Jim Osterlund]

Fred speaks well, and, indeed, we need to gather all these thoughts,  
and, if nothing else, state clearly and succinctly what the problem  
is.  To contribute to this, thinking there might be significant legal  
aspects to consider, I've placed inquiry with NYSDEC, thinking them  
the most likely authority on such subjects.  I'll post further of  
anything useful that comes from reply.



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Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Gregory Fisher]

Well said Fred and Peter.  -Original Message-
From: Fred Baumgarten 
Sent: Feb 6, 2012 12:38 PM
To: NYSBirds-L@cornell.edu
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

I like Peter's posting and would like to add a few thoughts.  Maybe I'm missing something, but the question that doesn't seem to be fully addressed is: What do we do about it?
 
Keeping sightings off the listserves is one solution, but one that a lot of people, myself included, have difficulty with.  As others have pointed out, it fosters an attitude of elitism and exclusivity that many have tried to overcome in the birding community.

 
Moreover, I'm not convinced it would make that big a difference.  There is an implication here that those who get sightings off a listserve are somehow inherently less respectful birders.  I'm not buying that.  Just because I read about an owl online rather than go trekking to Jones Beach, say, to look for one myself isn't going to change the way I go about looking at the bird.  (That is to say, hopefully with respect.)

 
You could argue that posting increases the numbers, and thereby increases the chances of malfeasance.  Maybe.  But I'm not convinced other channels wouldn't have the same effect.  If a Snowy Owl showed up at Breezy Point, word would travel, listserve or not.  And to the person who suggested posting the general area, not the specific dune, that just seems pointless to me.  Having to search far and wide makes one more respectful than zeroing in on the spot?

 
There's also an ancillary benefit to the postings, in my opinion.  I like to know!  99% of the time I don't get out to look for the bird myself, but it excites me to know what's going on in the world of birding and rarities.

 
I'm intrigued by the photographer/birder who says he gets within 15 feet (or yards, I can't remember which) of the owl, and that's enough to keep the bird from flushing.  How does he decide what the "correct" distance is?  Is he still walking through fragile dunes to get to his mythical line?  While I have no bias against photographers vs. birders, might we admit that to get a good shot, a professional or amateur photographer has to approach a bird considerably closer than a birder to get a "satisfactory" shot/look?  So we are back to the question of what do we do?  The problem is not going to go away on its own.

 
Another source of confusion: What are we trying to protect?  The habitat, the bird, or every birder's right at having a fair chance of seeing the bird?  Or all three?  The conditions for each may be very different.  If the dunes at Breezy Point are closed off to protect the habitat, then the solution is to enforce those boundaries absolutely, and maybe we need to find out how we can enhance enforcement.

 
I suggest, as have others, that ultimately the answer lies in educating ourselves and others in proper birding ethics and etiquette.  We need to think creatively and without blaming about how to do this.  Maybe birders out to see a Snowy Owl can bring a sign with them that explains the proper viewing distance and behavior.  Maybe we need to somehow designate "captains" to regulate viewing, and at least provide powerful viewing equipment for visitors to share.  Maybe we need to have designated times when photographers can go closer for shots.  

 
I don't know.  But we need to keep working for solutions, together, constructively.
 
--Fred--
 
Fred Baumgarten
Sharon, CT/Westchester, NY
And Points In-between
fredbee.ea...@gmail.com
 
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Peter Priolo <priolope...@hotmail.com> wrote:


List Members: 

I am a recent subscriber of this list-serve.  Having read some but not all of the comments and opinions on the encroachment of birds for whatever the motive, I have decided to share some points. From my relative outside perspective, I see this issue to be one of great controversy and I feel a sort of unrest among a community of people who may actually all be on the same side.  I want to try to make a point that the state of the birds and our shared environment will be better stewarded to if we are to unite in our efforts. I mean to say we are attacking ourselves, pointing the finger in the mirror.



Motivated by a recent statement made by the president of the ABA, I think that those of us who are personally capable of doing so, should educate others while birding in the field.  The intention of the comment was to turn non-birders on to birding, but this can apply to those who are already introduced to birds but maybe not aware of their ethical birding offenses.  Some offenders may be well aware of their offenses I understand.  But I think the state of the birds will be more sustainable in the long run if we spread the special yearning, love, investment, wonder, research, and compassion for these taxon to more and more people in the world.  It will hurt birds if birders assault each other.  Birders are a min

Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Fred Baumgarten]

I like Peter's posting and would like to add a few thoughts.  Maybe I'm
missing something, but the question that doesn't seem to be fully addressed
is: What do we do about it?

Keeping sightings off the listserves is one solution, but one that a lot of
people, myself included, have difficulty with.  As others have pointed out,
it fosters an attitude of elitism and exclusivity that many have tried to
overcome in the birding community.

Moreover, I'm not convinced it would make that big a difference.  There is
an implication here that those who get sightings off a listserve are
somehow inherently less respectful birders.  I'm not buying that.  Just
because I read about an owl online rather than go trekking to Jones Beach,
say, to look for one myself isn't going to change the way I go about
looking at the bird.  (That is to say, hopefully with respect.)

You could argue that posting increases the numbers, and thereby increases
the chances of malfeasance.  Maybe.  But I'm not convinced other channels
wouldn't have the same effect.  If a Snowy Owl showed up at Breezy Point,
word would travel, listserve or not.  And to the person who suggested
posting the general area, not the specific dune, that just seems pointless
to me.  Having to search far and wide makes one more respectful than
zeroing in on the spot?

There's also an ancillary benefit to the postings, in my opinion.  I like
to know!  99% of the time I don't get out to look for the bird myself, but
it excites me to know what's going on in the world of birding and rarities.

I'm intrigued by the photographer/birder who says he gets within 15 feet
(or yards, I can't remember which) of the owl, and that's enough to keep
the bird from flushing.  How does he decide what the "correct" distance
is?  Is he still walking through fragile dunes to get to his mythical
line?  While I have no bias against photographers vs. birders, might we
admit that to get a good shot, a professional or amateur photographer has
to approach a bird considerably closer than a birder to get a
"satisfactory" shot/look?  So we are back to the question of what do we
do?  The problem is not going to go away on its own.

Another source of confusion: What are we trying to protect?  The habitat,
the bird, or every birder's right at having a fair chance of seeing the
bird?  Or all three?  The conditions for each may be very different.  If
the dunes at Breezy Point are closed off to protect the habitat, then the
solution is to enforce those boundaries absolutely, and maybe we need to
find out how we can enhance enforcement.

I suggest, as have others, that ultimately the answer lies in educating
ourselves and others in proper birding ethics and etiquette.  We need to
think creatively and without blaming about how to do this.  Maybe birders
out to see a Snowy Owl can bring a sign with them that explains the proper
viewing distance and behavior.  Maybe we need to somehow designate
"captains" to regulate viewing, and at least provide powerful viewing
equipment for visitors to share.  Maybe we need to have designated times
when photographers can go closer for shots.

I don't know.  But we need to keep working for solutions, together,
constructively.

--Fred--

Fred Baumgarten
Sharon, CT/Westchester, NY
And Points In-between
fredbee.ea...@gmail.com


On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Peter Priolo wrote:

>  List Members:
>
> I am a recent subscriber of this list-serve.  Having read some but not all
> of the comments and opinions on the encroachment of birds for whatever the
> motive, I have decided to share some points. From my relative outside
> perspective, I see this issue to be one of great controversy and I feel a
> sort of unrest among a community of people who may actually all be on the
> same side.  I want to try to make a point that the state of the birds and
> our shared environment will be better stewarded to if we are to unite in
> our efforts. I mean to say we are attacking ourselves, pointing the finger
> in the mirror.
>
>  Motivated by a recent statement made by the president of the ABA, I
> think that those of us who are personally capable of doing so, should
> educate others while birding in the field.  The intention of the comment
> was to turn non-birders on to birding, but this can apply to those who are
> already introduced to birds but maybe not aware of their ethical birding
> offenses.  Some offenders may be well aware of their offenses I understand.
>  But I think the state of the birds will be more sustainable in the long
> run if we spread the special yearning, love, investment, wonder, research,
> and compassion for these taxon to more and more people in the world.  *It
> will hurt birds if birders assault each other.*  Birders are a minority
> to begin with, we need to grow our efforts.  Some photographers may be more
> owl-like than owls themselves, but in most Snowy Owl photos I have seen,
> the owl had been looking directly at the lens implying the photographer is
> 

[nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Peter Priolo]

List Members:
I am a recent subscriber of this list-serve.  Having read some but not all of 
the comments and opinions on the encroachment of birds for whatever the motive, 
I have decided to share some points. From my relative outside perspective, I 
see this issue to be one of great controversy and I feel a sort of unrest among 
a community of people who may actually all be on the same side.  I want to try 
to make a point that the state of the birds and our shared environment will be 
better stewarded to if we are to unite in our efforts. I mean to say we are 
attacking ourselves, pointing the finger in the mirror.
Motivated by a recent statement made by the president of the ABA, I think that 
those of us who are personally capable of doing so, should educate others while 
birding in the field.  The intention of the comment was to turn non-birders on 
to birding, but this can apply to those who are already introduced to birds but 
maybe not aware of their ethical birding offenses.  Some offenders may be well 
aware of their offenses I understand.  But I think the state of the birds will 
be more sustainable in the long run if we spread the special yearning, love, 
investment, wonder, research, and compassion for these taxon to more and more 
people in the world.  It will hurt birds if birders assault each other.  
Birders are a minority to begin with, we need to grow our efforts.  Some 
photographers may be more owl-like than owls themselves, but in most Snowy Owl 
photos I have seen, the owl had been looking directly at the lens implying the 
photographer is conspicuous to some level, but; it is the look of those bright 
eskimo eyes looking back at me on the post card or request for donation that 
encourage me to take positive action. For example, I posted a sighting this 
past weekend and someone traveling from NYC to Long Island saw the post, viewed 
the species, and sent me a thank you email. The viewpoint to see the birds was 
one of appropriateness and I believe no threat to the birds occurred. As a 
result, the passion for birds was spread among us. 
Many birders, whether hobbyist, ornithologist, photographers, 
conservation/preservation, PhD or 13 years old,  etc.- we all have some 
interest in birding that can lead to the further preservation, protection, 
discovery, knowledge, fund raising, support, emotional/recreational/spiritual 
related advancement of our worlds birds and their environment.   Among other 
things, I am a naturalist, a birder, a photographer, a living spiritual being 
affected by many issues related to our avian communities and their and our 
environment.  I don't want to be criticized or confronted by a polarized crowd 
of peers demanding me to chose a side for having both a camera and a spotting 
scope in the field.  We are on the same side. Yes I have flushed birds in 
pursuit of a fleeting opportunity that I had maybe been caught up in for 
various reasons whether adrenaline, obsession, emotion, curiosity, data 
collection, accidental etc.  And I have felt the human side of remorse and 
regret as a result of maybe flushing an apex predator. What effect (energy 
conservation or intake from feeding for example) does flushing a relatively few 
birds, when compared to the regional population of that species, have on that 
species population in the long run? I'm not sure. It obviously affects birders. 
Peter PrioloCenter Moriches  


  
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Please submit your observations to eBird:
http://ebird.org/content/ebird/

--

[nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Peter Priolo]

List Members:
I am a recent subscriber of this list-serve.  Having read some but not all of 
the comments and opinions on the encroachment of birds for whatever the motive, 
I have decided to share some points. From my relative outside perspective, I 
see this issue to be one of great controversy and I feel a sort of unrest among 
a community of people who may actually all be on the same side.  I want to try 
to make a point that the state of the birds and our shared environment will be 
better stewarded to if we are to unite in our efforts. I mean to say we are 
attacking ourselves, pointing the finger in the mirror.
Motivated by a recent statement made by the president of the ABA, I think that 
those of us who are personally capable of doing so, should educate others while 
birding in the field.  The intention of the comment was to turn non-birders on 
to birding, but this can apply to those who are already introduced to birds but 
maybe not aware of their ethical birding offenses.  Some offenders may be well 
aware of their offenses I understand.  But I think the state of the birds will 
be more sustainable in the long run if we spread the special yearning, love, 
investment, wonder, research, and compassion for these taxon to more and more 
people in the world.  It will hurt birds if birders assault each other.  
Birders are a minority to begin with, we need to grow our efforts.  Some 
photographers may be more owl-like than owls themselves, but in most Snowy Owl 
photos I have seen, the owl had been looking directly at the lens implying the 
photographer is conspicuous to some level, but; it is the look of those bright 
eskimo eyes looking back at me on the post card or request for donation that 
encourage me to take positive action. For example, I posted a sighting this 
past weekend and someone traveling from NYC to Long Island saw the post, viewed 
the species, and sent me a thank you email. The viewpoint to see the birds was 
one of appropriateness and I believe no threat to the birds occurred. As a 
result, the passion for birds was spread among us. 
Many birders, whether hobbyist, ornithologist, photographers, 
conservation/preservation, PhD or 13 years old,  etc.- we all have some 
interest in birding that can lead to the further preservation, protection, 
discovery, knowledge, fund raising, support, emotional/recreational/spiritual 
related advancement of our worlds birds and their environment.   Among other 
things, I am a naturalist, a birder, a photographer, a living spiritual being 
affected by many issues related to our avian communities and their and our 
environment.  I don't want to be criticized or confronted by a polarized crowd 
of peers demanding me to chose a side for having both a camera and a spotting 
scope in the field.  We are on the same side. Yes I have flushed birds in 
pursuit of a fleeting opportunity that I had maybe been caught up in for 
various reasons whether adrenaline, obsession, emotion, curiosity, data 
collection, accidental etc.  And I have felt the human side of remorse and 
regret as a result of maybe flushing an apex predator. What effect (energy 
conservation or intake from feeding for example) does flushing a relatively few 
birds, when compared to the regional population of that species, have on that 
species population in the long run? I'm not sure. It obviously affects birders. 
Peter PrioloCenter Moriches  


  
--

NYSbirds-L List Info:
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm

ARCHIVES:
1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html
2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L
3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html

Please submit your observations to eBird:
http://ebird.org/content/ebird/

--

Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Fred Baumgarten]

I like Peter's posting and would like to add a few thoughts.  Maybe I'm
missing something, but the question that doesn't seem to be fully addressed
is: What do we do about it?

Keeping sightings off the listserves is one solution, but one that a lot of
people, myself included, have difficulty with.  As others have pointed out,
it fosters an attitude of elitism and exclusivity that many have tried to
overcome in the birding community.

Moreover, I'm not convinced it would make that big a difference.  There is
an implication here that those who get sightings off a listserve are
somehow inherently less respectful birders.  I'm not buying that.  Just
because I read about an owl online rather than go trekking to Jones Beach,
say, to look for one myself isn't going to change the way I go about
looking at the bird.  (That is to say, hopefully with respect.)

You could argue that posting increases the numbers, and thereby increases
the chances of malfeasance.  Maybe.  But I'm not convinced other channels
wouldn't have the same effect.  If a Snowy Owl showed up at Breezy Point,
word would travel, listserve or not.  And to the person who suggested
posting the general area, not the specific dune, that just seems pointless
to me.  Having to search far and wide makes one more respectful than
zeroing in on the spot?

There's also an ancillary benefit to the postings, in my opinion.  I like
to know!  99% of the time I don't get out to look for the bird myself, but
it excites me to know what's going on in the world of birding and rarities.

I'm intrigued by the photographer/birder who says he gets within 15 feet
(or yards, I can't remember which) of the owl, and that's enough to keep
the bird from flushing.  How does he decide what the correct distance
is?  Is he still walking through fragile dunes to get to his mythical
line?  While I have no bias against photographers vs. birders, might we
admit that to get a good shot, a professional or amateur photographer has
to approach a bird considerably closer than a birder to get a
satisfactory shot/look?  So we are back to the question of what do we
do?  The problem is not going to go away on its own.

Another source of confusion: What are we trying to protect?  The habitat,
the bird, or every birder's right at having a fair chance of seeing the
bird?  Or all three?  The conditions for each may be very different.  If
the dunes at Breezy Point are closed off to protect the habitat, then the
solution is to enforce those boundaries absolutely, and maybe we need to
find out how we can enhance enforcement.

I suggest, as have others, that ultimately the answer lies in educating
ourselves and others in proper birding ethics and etiquette.  We need to
think creatively and without blaming about how to do this.  Maybe birders
out to see a Snowy Owl can bring a sign with them that explains the proper
viewing distance and behavior.  Maybe we need to somehow designate
captains to regulate viewing, and at least provide powerful viewing
equipment for visitors to share.  Maybe we need to have designated times
when photographers can go closer for shots.

I don't know.  But we need to keep working for solutions, together,
constructively.

--Fred--

Fred Baumgarten
Sharon, CT/Westchester, NY
And Points In-between
fredbee.ea...@gmail.com


On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Peter Priolo priolope...@hotmail.comwrote:

  List Members:

 I am a recent subscriber of this list-serve.  Having read some but not all
 of the comments and opinions on the encroachment of birds for whatever the
 motive, I have decided to share some points. From my relative outside
 perspective, I see this issue to be one of great controversy and I feel a
 sort of unrest among a community of people who may actually all be on the
 same side.  I want to try to make a point that the state of the birds and
 our shared environment will be better stewarded to if we are to unite in
 our efforts. I mean to say we are attacking ourselves, pointing the finger
 in the mirror.

  Motivated by a recent statement made by the president of the ABA, I
 think that those of us who are personally capable of doing so, should
 educate others while birding in the field.  The intention of the comment
 was to turn non-birders on to birding, but this can apply to those who are
 already introduced to birds but maybe not aware of their ethical birding
 offenses.  Some offenders may be well aware of their offenses I understand.
  But I think the state of the birds will be more sustainable in the long
 run if we spread the special yearning, love, investment, wonder, research,
 and compassion for these taxon to more and more people in the world.  *It
 will hurt birds if birders assault each other.*  Birders are a minority
 to begin with, we need to grow our efforts.  Some photographers may be more
 owl-like than owls themselves, but in most Snowy Owl photos I have seen,
 the owl had been looking directly at the lens implying the photographer is
 conspicuous 

Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Gregory Fisher]

Well said Fred and Peter. -Original Message-
From: Fred Baumgarten <fredbee.ea...@gmail.com>
Sent: Feb 6, 2012 12:38 PM
To: NYSBirds-L@cornell.edu
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

I like Peter's posting and would like to add a few thoughts. Maybe I'm missing something, but the question that doesn't seem to be fully addressed is: What do we do about it?

Keeping sightings off the listserves is one solution, but one that a lot of people, myself included, have difficulty with. As others have pointed out, it fosters an attitude of elitism and exclusivity that many have tried to overcome in the birding community.


Moreover, I'm not convinced it would make that big a difference. There is an implication here that those who get sightings off a listserve are somehow inherently less respectful birders. I'm not buying that. Just because I read about an owl online rather than go trekking to Jones Beach, say, to look for one myself isn't going to change the way I go about looking at the bird. (That is to say, hopefully with respect.)


You could argue that posting increases the numbers, and thereby increases the chances of malfeasance. Maybe. But I'm not convinced other channels wouldn't have the same effect. If a Snowy Owl showed up at Breezy Point, word would travel, listserve or not. And to the person who suggested posting the general area, not the specific dune, that just seems pointless to me. Having to search far and wide makes one more respectful than zeroing in on the spot?


There's also an ancillary benefit to the postings, in my opinion. I like to know! 99% of the time I don't get out to look for the bird myself, but it excites me to know what's going on in the world of birding and rarities.


I'm intrigued by the photographer/birder who says he gets within 15 feet (or yards, I can't remember which) of the owl, and that's enough to keep the bird from flushing. How does he decide what the "correct" distance is? Is he still walking through fragile dunes to get to his mythical line? While I have no bias against photographers vs. birders, might we admit that to get a good shot, a professional or amateur photographer has to approach a bird considerably closer than a birder to get a "satisfactory" shot/look? So we are back to the question of what do we do? The problem is not going to go away on its own.


Another source of confusion: What are we trying to protect? The habitat, the bird, or every birder's right at having a fair chance of seeing the bird? Or all three? The conditions for each may be very different. If the dunes at Breezy Point are closed off to protect the habitat, then the solution is to enforce those boundaries absolutely, and maybe we need to find out how we can enhance enforcement.


I suggest, as have others, that ultimately the answer lies in educating ourselves and others in proper birding ethics and etiquette. We need to think creatively and without blaming about how to do this. Maybe birders out to see a Snowy Owl can bring a sign with them that explains the proper viewing distance and behavior. Maybe we need to somehow designate "captains" to regulate viewing, and at least provide powerful viewing equipment for visitors to share. Maybe we need to have designated times when photographers can go closer for shots. 


I don't know. But we need to keep working for solutions, together, constructively.

--Fred--

Fred Baumgarten
Sharon, CT/Westchester, NY
And Points In-between
fredbee.ea...@gmail.com

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Peter Priolo priolope...@hotmail.com wrote:


List Members: 

I am a recent subscriber of this list-serve. Having read some but not all of the comments and opinions on the encroachment of birds for whatever the motive, I have decided to share some points.From my relative outside perspective, I see this issue to be one of great controversy and I feel a sort of unrest among a community of people who may actually all be on the same side. I want to try to make a point that the state of the birds and our shared environment will be better stewarded to if we are to unite in our efforts. I mean to say we are attacking ourselves, pointing the finger in the mirror.



Motivated by a recent statement made by the president of the ABA, I think that those of us who are personally capable of doing so, should educate others while birding in the field. The intention of the comment was to turn non-birders on to birding, but this can apply to those who are already introduced to birds but maybe not aware of their ethical birding offenses. Some offenders may be well aware of their offenses I understand. But I think the state of the birds will be more sustainable in the long run if we spread the special yearning, love, investment, wonder, research, and compassion for these taxon to more and more people in the world. It will hurt birds if birders assault each other.Birders are a minority to begin wit

Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Jim Osterlund]

Fred speaks well, and, indeed, we need to gather all these thoughts,  
and, if nothing else, state clearly and succinctly what the problem  
is.  To contribute to this, thinking there might be significant legal  
aspects to consider, I've placed inquiry with NYSDEC, thinking them  
the most likely authority on such subjects.  I'll post further of  
anything useful that comes from reply.



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ARCHIVES:
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Please submit your observations to eBird:
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RE: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Mark Barriger]

The issue here is how to protect owls from being harassed by unethical and just 
plain pathetic photographers/birders. Not whether we should chase birds or 
whether we should report rare birds. So not sure why we got turned in that 
direction but maybe we can focus back on the main problem.
I'm tired of hearing or reading someone saying it's not fair that we get 
punished just because of a few bad apples. First of all it's not a few bad 
apples it's a bunch and the number is growing every year. It's 2012 and most 
people have a computer, smart phone, and a camera and at 10:30am an owl will be 
reported and by noon there's a mob of people coming and going and thats when 
you get your simple minded morons who show up to get an up close and personal 
shot or view of the owl. You can kick them off the list, you can report they're 
info on the list serve and you can confront them but the fact is we are not 
going to be able to defend these birds 24hrs a day and in fact I'm positive 
that we only observe a small amount of this nonsense. The serious birders 
know this because we have spent a great deal of time out in the field and have 
seen it first hand way to many times. I have a family, a full time job, and 
plenty of things to do and when I finally get time to bird watch and enjoy the 
owls I for one am sick and tired of it being ruined.
If people insist on reporting them I liked the suggestion of listing what you 
saw but leave out the specifics. If you want to see that Snowy Owl at Jones 
Beach, that Barred Owl in Central Park, or that Long-eared Owl in Pelham Bay 
put in the foot work and look for it. First of all the Owls not always going to 
be right where it was last seen, you'll probably sharpen up your birding 
skills, and most importantly will cut down on some of the traffic and relieve 
some stress on the birds.
By not reporting the owls doesn't mean keep it quiet but keep it off the net. 
Before birdingonthenet came along we still found owls and word always spread 
and it's not going to totally solve the problem but it would be a huge help. 
Besides half of the excitement is getting your hands dirty, freezing your butt 
off, and finally tracking one down. Thats what bird watching is all about:)

 
 
Mark Barriger
Wallingford, CT



 


 Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:58:02 -0500
 From: james...@optonline.net
 Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds
 To: NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu
 
 Fred speaks well, and, indeed, we need to gather all these thoughts, 
 and, if nothing else, state clearly and succinctly what the problem 
 is. To contribute to this, thinking there might be significant legal 
 aspects to consider, I've placed inquiry with NYSDEC, thinking them 
 the most likely authority on such subjects. I'll post further of 
 anything useful that comes from reply.
 
 
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RE: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Kevin J. McGowan]

Seriously?  Get a grip people.  Someone already mentioned how owls bring out 
the worst in people, and I agree.  The topic always sets off a flurry of 
sanctimonious posts from people trying to tell everyone else what to do.

Mention was already made of joggers and dog walkers flushing the owls in the 
same place.  I'd rather have a herd of photographers present than one dog 
running off leash or a family of picnickers with a little kid who likes to 
chase gulls.  

It's not like these owls are coming to some pristine wilderness, they're coming 
where people live and there is nothing to be done about that.  Walking in a 
closed area or trespassing?  Wrong, wrong, wrong.  But being the only person 
avoiding approaching an owl in a public space is kind of silly.

Bottom line - have respect, for the birds, for the law, and for other people 
who might have different desires than you.

And let me suggest that getting more public to see Snowy Owls this winter 
(preferably in a spotting scope of a friendly birder) is a huge potential 
educational opportunity.  Global warming?  Why should I care?  Oh, you mean 
those owls might be hurt?  Boom, personal connection.  Just a thought.

Kevin

Kevin J. McGowan
Ithaca, NY
k...@cornell.edu
607-254-2452


-Original Message-
From: bounce-39537336-3714...@list.cornell.edu 
[mailto:bounce-39537336-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Jim Osterlund
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:58 PM
To: NYSBIRDS-L
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

Fred speaks well, and, indeed, we need to gather all these thoughts,  
and, if nothing else, state clearly and succinctly what the problem  
is.  To contribute to this, thinking there might be significant legal  
aspects to consider, I've placed inquiry with NYSDEC, thinking them  
the most likely authority on such subjects.  I'll post further of  
anything useful that comes from reply.


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1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html
2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L
3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html

Please submit your observations to eBird:
http://ebird.org/content/ebird/

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2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L
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Please submit your observations to eBird:
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