Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update
On Mar 29, 2006, at 1:55 PM, David Forslund wrote: Tim.Churches wrote: David Forslund wrote: Molly, Incorporating OSHCA in the US doesn't necessarily imply US domination. No, but US citizens need to be sensitive to the negative feelings towards the US which are present and growing in many countries around the world. Whether this antipathy towards the US is justified depends a great deal on one's standpoint - and I don't think we should debate it here - but it definitely exists and is remarkably pervasive - in some countries it is the dominant attitude, in others, it is present in a sizeable minority of the population. This certainly is too bad as the characterization of things in the US by the press outside the US is certainly not very factual or unbiased. on the other hand, i find the american media to be almost completely useless at bringing news of the world to our citizens. it''s a good thing we have the web! [wr] - - - - - - - - will ross project manager mendocino informatics 216 west perkins street, suite 206 ukiah, california 95482 usa 707.272.7255 [voice] 707.462.5015 [fax] www.minformatics.com - - - - - - - - Getting people to adopt common standards is impeded by patents. Sir Tim Berners-Lee, BCS, 2006 - - - - - - - - Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: next steps. (was Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update)
Richard Schilling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Richard, What you say seems fine. But software patents can cause problems to us here. Most software come from the US and software is so expensive that there is rampant piracy of software in many countires. Recent WTO agreements have made this illegal and therefore it is not posssible for people here to get pirated copies anymore. This is a good thing, in my opinion, but there are many people who find that they can't get software nor can they afford it. They are frustrated and unhappy. They look at FOSS with some interest and our LUG has been very actively doing a lot of stuff. The government agency setup to do the e-government and promotion are also naturally interested. However patents related to software is rearing it's ugly head and worrying people here. We feel if software patents are brought in here by law, it will cause a lot of concern as peopl here can ill afford legal costs that may come with such laws. You in the US and me because I use FOSS for everything do not care. But for students and people here software costs are prohibitive. Piracy was a godsend that has now gone. They feel helpless, don't they? The digital divide is maintained. This is why any laws that may affect FOSS worries us as it is the only way forward. Even those in the US and EU do not think software patent issues are silly. NandA Nandalal Gunaratne wrote: Definitely no anti-US sentiments from here. But we worry about the laws which stifle the development of lesser developed countires in their progress inICT. Really? That amazes me. Alright, I'll play U.S. QnA session here. Tell me your concerns and I'll try to address them as they relate to OSCHA operating internationally with members in the U.S. First off... Silly patents that have been applied for are irrelevant to OSCHA. Membership in the WTO, as Malaysia has achieved, help protect OSCHA's intellectual properties. If OSCHA is registered in the U.S. as a trade association all anyone has to do is sign up. It's that easy. If OSCHA is registered as a domestic, U.S. non-profit corporation all we have to do is direct OSCHA resources to carry out its mission in other countries. OSCHA branches in other countries might have different limitations and permissions on its activities. Richard - YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group openhealth on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - - Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update
Richard Schilling wrote: OSHCA will need to be incorporated in every country it has a presence. It's a question of where you start, really. The origin of incorporation also affects how that company can behave when operating overseas. wellmaybe. We incorporated openEHR Foundation in the UK only, mainly for reasons of convenience. That was some years ago; we haven't needed to incorporate anywhere. Is OSHCA going to be opening offices for trading around the world? - thomas Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update
Dr Molly Cheah wrote: Is OSCHA a religious organization or an independent world-wide technological organization accessible to everyone regardless of religious conviction? (Tim, you're not making any sense with your star and crescent comment). I think Tim was just being cheeky :). Yes, just stirring the pot... sorry, it is my nature to do so. And, what I'm suggesting is that you start with a U.S. incorporation. Then incorporate elsewhere. What is below is point/counter-point. And, it's not talking about suitability based on religion, the people or any other facet other than legal. But why start of with a US incorporation? Past discussions clearly indicate that the membership do not want a US dominated OSHCA. So, let me boil this down to simple terms: 1. Legal protections: U.S. incorporation means that as a U.S. company, OSHCA has the same rights as an individual. Intellectual property rights and agreements are upheld. In other countries, especially ones with new regimes, this might not be the case. U.S. subsidiaries running in non-U.S. countries would work just fine and be stabilized by the U.S. based parent. I don't agree that US incorporation offers more legal protection than Malaysia which are also signatories to International Conventions and legal frameworks and taking them seriously. Under the law OSHCA will be a legal entity with rights to all provisions under the relevent acts. Incidently Malaysia is not a new regime and we got our independence from the British in 1957. Before that we were colonized by the Portugese, then the Dutch and then the British. Stabilized by US based parent? How so? 2. Repatriation of capital: As OSCHA earns fees, receives donations, pays taxes, etc... it's much more straightforward in the U.S. I believe. The tax burden on a non-profit like OSHCA would be minimal or non-existent. I plan to apply for tax-exempt status, in addition to the non-profit status which will automatically be given. That means that donors to OSHCA do not pay taxation on their donations to OSHCA and OSHCA does not have to pay tax on the donations received. There is no control on the repatriation of monies earned in Malaysia. 3. Political stability: In politically less-stable countries (e.g. Malaysia, Taiwan, Mexico, South Africa, Haiti, etc..) when regimes change so does the law - you can find your corporation and all its assets suddenly owned by someone else. I didn't know that Malaysia is politically unstable and I don't know of any assets that had been suddenly owned by someone else. But I'm amazed by your perceptions of Malaysia. I would be happy to play host and invite you to come and see Malaysia. If anything, the political system in Malaysia might be a little bit too stable... Um, no. 4. Government funding: incorporating in a country because it looks like there's government funding is a bad idea. You need a much harder offer than that. What are the incentive programs, specifically that the other government offers? Who, specifically in the government, is offering them? I've not mentioned about Govt funding. I did say that it would be easier to get funding for OSHCA activities from the likes of organisations like UNDP, IDRC, CIDA, SIDA etc. Maybe I failed to market or hard sell Malaysia for our purpose. As for incentive programmes and other Govt offers, it is obvious that you are not aware of the Malaysian Govt's Policy on Open Source, incentives related to ICT companies and projects. There are too many to enumerate here. I did a google search on Malaysia's incentives for ICT and they're all there. However, after all these efforts I wonder if the members of OSHCA are capable to make a difference to push the open source agenda in health care especially in the developing world. I must quality that this is my main interest - the developing world that needs help. I think it is fair to say that Molly has comprehensively demolished Richard's arguments and hopefully dispelled a little of Richard's ignorance about Malaysia (and the world in general beyond the US). Richard, feel free to incorporate whatever organisation that you like in the US, as long as you don't call it OSHCA, because that name and meme has been well and truly claimed by a long-standing international group of like-minded people who are now about to embark on a second (and certain to be successful this time) attempt at incorporation - in Malaysia in the first instances, through the good offices of Molly, and elsewhere if and when the need arises. But baby steps first: incorporate in Malaysia. Please proceed as planned, Molly. Tim C Molly Cheah wrote: I was born in Malaysia and lived through the period where we obtained independance from the British and from whom our legal framework was adopted. Just wondering what are the concerns of Richard and David on the legal
Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update
David Forslund wrote: Molly, Incorporating OSHCA in the US doesn't necessarily imply US domination. No, but US citizens need to be sensitive to the negative feelings towards the US which are present and growing in many countries around the world. Whether this antipathy towards the US is justified depends a great deal on one's standpoint - and I don't think we should debate it here - but it definitely exists and is remarkably pervasive - in some countries it is the dominant attitude, in others, it is present in a sizeable minority of the population. Given these attitudes to the US, incorporation of an international organisation in the US may be perceived negatively by some would-be participants in OSHCA, and certainly by many potential funding or collaborating bodies, such as the WSIS. Thus it *is* a practical consideration. I did not hear an answer to my question about the possible necessity of incorporating OSHCA in multiple countries. Yes, that may be necessary, but OSHCA should cross that bridge if and when it comes to it. There is no need for immediate, simultaneous incorporation in many countries in the first instance. If the need for incorporation elsewhere becomes apparent, then the necessary steps can be taken. But let OSHCA walk before forcing it to run a cross-country race. I didn't understand Tim C.'s comment about there not being freedom of political expression in Malaysia. I was alluding to the case of Anwar Ibrahim - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_Ibrahim - amongst others. But that was a while ago now, and Mahathir has retired. This happens in many democracies from time to time - see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mccarthyism How does that fit with a form of democracy? I just read this week in a Australian paper about a government official threatening to jail non-Muslims if they were perceived as insulting Islam. These types of things concern me if an international body is to be organized in such a country. Perhaps this information is totally erroneous? Such things are often misreported. However, OSHCA is unlikely to ever make insulting comments about Islam or any other religion for that matter. In fact, the only religious topics which might be discussed are emacs vs vi or Java vs Python or Ruby. Thus I can't see why such things are of concern with respect to where OSHCA is incorporated. Note that incorporation of OSHCA in Malaysia or anywhere else has no impact on your freedom of speech as an individual, even if you are also a member of OSHCA. Tim C Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: next steps. (was Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update)
On Mar 28, 2006, at 10:51 PM, Richard Schilling wrote: I'm simply saying I'll do the work and give OSCHA a physical presence here, as long as I know there will be people there to sign up. I don't want to establish a U.S. presence for OSCHA that has no interest. Building up an OSCHA presence in the U.S. that spans political and international boundaries is vital. Richard, I don't see a need for a formal national OSCHA entity in the USA. I think now is a time to allow Molly and the other initiators to focus on a successful relaunch of the international effort that is OSCHA. I intend to let them get the international effort stable, and to assist as needed. [wr] - - - - - - - - will ross project manager mendocino informatics 216 west perkins street, suite 206 ukiah, california 95482 usa 707.272.7255 [voice] 707.462.5015 [fax] www.minformatics.com - - - - - - - - Getting people to adopt common standards is impeded by patents. Sir Tim Berners-Lee - - - - - - - - Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update
Tim.Churches wrote: David Forslund wrote: Molly, Incorporating OSHCA in the US doesn't necessarily imply US domination. No, but US citizens need to be sensitive to the negative feelings towards the US which are present and growing in many countries around the world. Whether this antipathy towards the US is justified depends a great deal on one's standpoint - and I don't think we should debate it here - but it definitely exists and is remarkably pervasive - in some countries it is the dominant attitude, in others, it is present in a sizeable minority of the population. Come on everyone, we need action not endless debate... There are some relatively simple things to be done, someone who currently has the energy and wherewithall to do it (Molly); we should be looking at the least pain route to getting the organisation going (which as far as I can tell is: set it up in Malaysia, in the first instance). We can't base that thinking on the complexities of geopolitics (and I am the first to agree that the world situation is a concern of the first order)... However, OSHCA has a much more focussed agenda, a reasonably clear mission, and we need to be thinking about what comes after the organisation is running (hopefully a matter of weeks, not years!), not obsessing about where it should be incorporated, or the relative evils of Malaysian injustices v US injustices. The latter may be relevant to how we live our lives, but I really doubt that it has any practical impact on just getting the horse called OSCHA out the gate. Our main strengths are the individuals here, not the countries they come from. Many of us here have worked in some kind of advocate or champion mode in the e-Health arena; Molly is doing this right now - what she doesn't need is more obstacles and buts from the debating gallery; she needs support and resources. - thomas beale Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update
Thomas Beale wrote: Tim.Churches wrote: David Forslund wrote: Molly, Incorporating OSHCA in the US doesn't necessarily imply US domination. No, but US citizens need to be sensitive to the negative feelings towards the US which are present and growing in many countries around the world. Whether this antipathy towards the US is justified depends a great deal on one's standpoint - and I don't think we should debate it here - but it definitely exists and is remarkably pervasive - in some countries it is the dominant attitude, in others, it is present in a sizeable minority of the population. Come on everyone, we need action not endless debate... There are some relatively simple things to be done, someone who currently has the energy and wherewithall to do it (Molly); we should be looking at the least pain route to getting the organisation going (which as far as I can tell is: set it up in Malaysia, in the first instance). We can't base that thinking on the complexities of geopolitics (and I am the first to agree that the world situation is a concern of the first order)... Thomas, I think that it important to discuss this issue (where OSHCA is to be incorporated in the first instance), up to a point. I don't think that the debate that has occurred has delayed Molly's work on incorporation - it is, to use a much abused term, orthogonal to that. Also, OSHCA will, as an advocacy group with international scope, need to interact with many different organisations, and here geo[socio]political considerations do play a part. Far from merely being a convenient and relatively cheap location to do business, incorporation of OSHCA in Malaysia sends strong, positive signals to a wide range of people and organisations in a way that incorporation in the US, Australia, Canada, or the EU would not. The fact is that there is genuine concern in many countries about US (and to a lesser but real extent, EU) cultural, economic and technological (and, um, military) hegemony, influence or encroachment. Thus there are strong benefits in OSHCA, as an international organisation, having its incorporated base in Malaysia, which: a) is a developing/transitional country: b) has a long history of and reputation for non-alignment; c) has a reputation for promoting and fostering the use and development of technology, especially information technology, as a means of accelerating appropriate economic and social development; d) is a secular, religiously-tolerant and -moderate state which has an association with the Islamic faith. Some or all of these these attributes are likely to matter to the people with whom OSHCA wishes to engage (or ought to wish to engage) in developing and transitional countries. Wayne is absolutely correct: the main game for free open source health software is in the poorer majority of the world. In rich, developed countries, open source software in health is important, but realistically it is not going to become the dominant source of deployed health information systems in those countries in the next decade or two. But that is not the case in developing and transitional countries, where FLOSS has the real potential to become a or the major provider of health informatics infrastructure and systems. So, Malaysia does matter, but yes, let's let Molly get on with it. However, OSHCA has a much more focussed agenda, a reasonably clear mission, and we need to be thinking about what comes after the organisation is running (hopefully a matter of weeks, not years!), not obsessing about where it should be incorporated, or the relative evils of Malaysian injustices v US injustices. I think the point that I was attempting to make is that no country is beyond criticism in some important respect, and thus there is no perfect home base for OSHCA. The latter may be relevant to how we live our lives, but I really doubt that it has any practical impact on just getting the horse called OSCHA out the gate. I disagree - as expounded above, I feel that place of incorporation will have a bearing on teh success of OSHCA as an international adovocy body for FLOSS in health. Our main strengths are the individuals here, not the countries they come from. Sure, but external perceptions of OSHCA will not primarily based on the personal characteristics of its members or Board. Perceptions will be based on published documents and statements of principal, on the countries of origin of its Board/steering committee and its members (hence the desire to have one Board member of steering committee member from each continent/region), and on the location of its home base. Many of us here have worked in some kind of advocate or champion mode in the e-Health arena; Molly is doing this right now - what she doesn't need is more obstacles and buts from the debating gallery; she needs support and resources. Yup. And for many, many reasons, Molly is the perfect person to taking the running and
Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update
Nice to see you make progress on this. I remember a few years ago when this was a hot topic on the openhealth list If I were involved in the incorporation (which I can do, by the way in a day) I would object to doing it in Malaysia. I would do it in the U.S. first. The protections offered a U.S. corporation might be much greater than in Malaysia. Richard Schilling Molly Cheah wrote: Dear all, I am happy to annouce that the transfer of the domain name oshca.org from Brian had been completed. Brian is in the process of creating and signing a document disclaiming rights to the OSHCA trademark. Thank you Brian for these initiatives. I understand that Brian will also make a decision with regards to the fate of the openhealth lists on Minoru and Yahoo by this weekend. I'll leave that to Brian to make that annoucement. As for the status of OSHCA, the protem committee members (volunteers expressed on the list as well as those agreed to serve when requested) are as follows: Joseph dal Molin (Canada/US) Adrian Midgley (UK/Europe) Thomas Beale (Australia/Pacific islands) Nandalal Gunaratne (Sri Lanka/Asia) Molly Cheah (Malaysia/Asia) I hope to keep the protem committee small for quick decision making but hope to add 2 more names, preferably from South America and Africa/Middle East by the time we submit the incorporation documents for registration. Please volunteer. These numbers and representation structure can change after incorporation if members wish so. I don't know how much discussion should go into the incorporation process or how much time should be alotted. My proposed timeline for completion of incorporation is 3 months from 15th April 2006 - tentative date for submission of papers. We should have OSHCA ressurrected by 15th July 2006, barring unforseen circumstances. Here are my assumptions in order to realise this initiative: 1. Provisions in the constitution/MA of OSHCA is a living document and can be changed by members' majority wishes. For purpose of incorporation, we will take into consideration past discussions (2002-2004) and make the provisions as general and flexible as possible to meet incorporation requirements. 2. There is no objection to incorporate ina developing country like Malaysia. There will be provisions for setting up geographical sections/branches etc with as much de-centralization as possible. 3.The Vision, Mission Statements, Principles and Activities as discussed earlier this year will be included in the incorporation papers. Any suggestion of changes posted on the Yahoo list by 15th April will be taken into consideration by the protem committee for incorporation. Procedures will be provided for amendments to be made after incorporation. 4. Elections for new committee members can take place immediately after incorporation. Provision will be made for the protem committee to stay on for a defined number of months to attend to teething issues that may arise. 5. The yahoo list will continue to discuss organising the 1st post-incorporation OSHCA meeting scheduled for later part of 2006 to kick-start/launch OSHCA. This may not be in the form of a full conference. I would like to see presentations of current status of open source healthcare solutions/applicaions. It should also provide the opportunity to include indepth discussions on planning for the future of OSHCA so that its resurrection becomes meaningful - reflecting more than just a community of open source enthusiasts in health care. If there are no other bidders, I plan to get funding to do this in Malaysia. Naturally it may be on a modest scale. Please feel free to propose ideas.The protem committee will work on an action plan and invite volunteers to help. Molly Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update
Richard Schilling wrote: If I were involved in the incorporation (which I can do, by the way in a day) I would object to doing it in Malaysia. I would do it in the U.S. first. The protections offered a U.S. corporation might be much greater than in Malaysia. Glad that you have compared US and Malaysian corporate law. Personally I think it is great that OSHCA will finally be incorporated, and given the current Zeitgeist in many rich countries, that it will be incorporated under a flag bearing the crescent and star. Tim C Molly Cheah wrote: Dear all, I am happy to annouce that the transfer of the domain name oshca.org from Brian had been completed. Brian is in the process of creating and signing a document disclaiming rights to the OSHCA trademark. Thank you Brian for these initiatives. I understand that Brian will also make a decision with regards to the fate of the openhealth lists on Minoru and Yahoo by this weekend. I'll leave that to Brian to make that annoucement. As for the status of OSHCA, the protem committee members (volunteers expressed on the list as well as those agreed to serve when requested) are as follows: Joseph dal Molin (Canada/US) Adrian Midgley (UK/Europe) Thomas Beale (Australia/Pacific islands) Nandalal Gunaratne (Sri Lanka/Asia) Molly Cheah (Malaysia/Asia) I hope to keep the protem committee small for quick decision making but hope to add 2 more names, preferably from South America and Africa/Middle East by the time we submit the incorporation documents for registration. Please volunteer. These numbers and representation structure can change after incorporation if members wish so. I don't know how much discussion should go into the incorporation process or how much time should be alotted. My proposed timeline for completion of incorporation is 3 months from 15th April 2006 - tentative date for submission of papers. We should have OSHCA ressurrected by 15th July 2006, barring unforseen circumstances. Here are my assumptions in order to realise this initiative: 1. Provisions in the constitution/MA of OSHCA is a living document and can be changed by members' majority wishes. For purpose of incorporation, we will take into consideration past discussions (2002-2004) and make the provisions as general and flexible as possible to meet incorporation requirements. 2. There is no objection to incorporate ina developing country like Malaysia. There will be provisions for setting up geographical sections/branches etc with as much de-centralization as possible. 3.The Vision, Mission Statements, Principles and Activities as discussed earlier this year will be included in the incorporation papers. Any suggestion of changes posted on the Yahoo list by 15th April will be taken into consideration by the protem committee for incorporation. Procedures will be provided for amendments to be made after incorporation. 4. Elections for new committee members can take place immediately after incorporation. Provision will be made for the protem committee to stay on for a defined number of months to attend to teething issues that may arise. 5. The yahoo list will continue to discuss organising the 1st post-incorporation OSHCA meeting scheduled for later part of 2006 to kick-start/launch OSHCA. This may not be in the form of a full conference. I would like to see presentations of current status of open source healthcare solutions/applicaions. It should also provide the opportunity to include indepth discussions on planning for the future of OSHCA so that its resurrection becomes meaningful - reflecting more than just a community of open source enthusiasts in health care. If there are no other bidders, I plan to get funding to do this in Malaysia. Naturally it may be on a modest scale. Please feel free to propose ideas.The protem committee will work on an action plan and invite volunteers to help. Molly Yahoo! Groups Links YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group openhealth http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update
Hmmm It hadn't crossed my mind at all that discussions on the suitability of the country for incorporation will be approached from those perspectives mentioned. I thought we were approaching this issue (developing vs developed countries) from the funding perspectives (not mentioning developing countries' perception and acceptance of developed countries' agenda). Besides there are more needs by developing countries for open source health care systems as a viable and sustainable alternative which we hope OSHCA can play a significant role as a non-profit, apolitical entity for maximum impact in health outcomes. See global knowledge partnership http://www.globalknowledge.org/ as an example of a similar organisation incorporated in Malaysia to harness the potential of ICT for a sustainable and equitable development globally. Molly Tim.Churches wrote: Richard Schilling wrote: If I were involved in the incorporation (which I can do, by the way in a day) I would object to doing it in Malaysia. I would do it in the U.S. first. The protections offered a U.S. corporation might be much greater than in Malaysia. Glad that you have compared US and Malaysian corporate law. Personally I think it is great that OSHCA will finally be incorporated, and given the current Zeitgeist in many rich countries, that it will be incorporated under a flag bearing the crescent and star. Tim C Molly Cheah wrote: Dear all, I am happy to annouce that the transfer of the domain name oshca.org from Brian had been completed. Brian is in the process of creating and signing a document disclaiming rights to the OSHCA trademark. Thank you Brian for these initiatives. I understand that Brian will also make a decision with regards to the fate of the openhealth lists on Minoru and Yahoo by this weekend. I'll leave that to Brian to make that annoucement. As for the status of OSHCA, the protem committee members (volunteers expressed on the list as well as those agreed to serve when requested) are as follows: Joseph dal Molin (Canada/US) Adrian Midgley (UK/Europe) Thomas Beale (Australia/Pacific islands) Nandalal Gunaratne (Sri Lanka/Asia) Molly Cheah (Malaysia/Asia) I hope to keep the protem committee small for quick decision making but hope to add 2 more names, preferably from South America and Africa/Middle East by the time we submit the incorporation documents for registration. Please volunteer. These numbers and representation structure can change after incorporation if members wish so. I don't know how much discussion should go into the incorporation process or how much time should be alotted. My proposed timeline for completion of incorporation is 3 months from 15th April 2006 - tentative date for submission of papers. We should have OSHCA ressurrected by 15th July 2006, barring unforseen circumstances. Here are my assumptions in order to realise this initiative: 1. Provisions in the constitution/MA of OSHCA is a living document and can be changed by members' majority wishes. For purpose of incorporation, we will take into consideration past discussions (2002-2004) and make the provisions as general and flexible as possible to meet incorporation requirements. 2. There is no objection to incorporate ina developing country like Malaysia. There will be provisions for setting up geographical sections/branches etc with as much de-centralization as possible. 3.The Vision, Mission Statements, Principles and Activities as discussed earlier this year will be included in the incorporation papers. Any suggestion of changes posted on the Yahoo list by 15th April will be taken into consideration by the protem committee for incorporation. Procedures will be provided for amendments to be made after incorporation. 4. Elections for new committee members can take place immediately after incorporation. Provision will be made for the protem committee to stay on for a defined number of months to attend to teething issues that may arise. 5. The yahoo list will continue to discuss organising the 1st post-incorporation OSHCA meeting scheduled for later part of 2006 to kick-start/launch OSHCA. This may not be in the form of a full conference. I would like to see presentations of current status of open source healthcare solutions/applicaions. It should also provide the opportunity to include indepth discussions on planning for the future of OSHCA so that its resurrection becomes meaningful - reflecting more than just a community of open source enthusiasts in health care. If there are no other bidders, I plan to get funding to do this in Malaysia. Naturally it may be on a modest scale. Please feel free to propose ideas.The protem committee will work on an action plan and invite volunteers to help. Molly Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update
Legal protection in the context of an organization like OSHCA is IMHO not a major concern. What is more important is how the countries laws influence governance. David Forslund wrote: I don't understand why this is good or even relevant. What should matter is the legal protection provided by the incorporation in the various countries participating, which I think was Richard's point. Dave Forslund Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update
There may be legal protection, etc in Malaysia. We are more familiar with the situation in the US. It is more of a question of comparing what is required and what you can do with a corporation in Malaysia than in the US. The decision shouldn't be made on political grounds but on technical grounds, in my opinion. Dave Molly Cheah wrote: I was born in Malaysia and lived through the period where we obtained independance from the British and from whom our legal framework was adopted. Just wondering what are the concerns of Richard and David on the legal protection for OSHCA. Can you elaborate rather than make a comment that imply there isn't legal protection. Incidently we don't have the equivalence of Guantanano Bay in Malaysia. Molly Joseph Dal Molin wrote: Legal protection in the context of an organization like OSHCA is IMHO not a major concern. What is more important is how the countries laws influence governance. David Forslund wrote: I don't understand why this is good or even relevant. What should matter is the legal protection provided by the incorporation in the various countries participating, which I think was Richard's point. Dave Forslund Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update
David Forslund wrote: There may be legal protection, etc in Malaysia. Not may be, there definitely is. As Molly said, Malaysian law was originally based on British law - it is now distinct from it, but rest assured that there is rule of civil law in Malaysia. There is also corruption and political influence over the courts, but I would not like to have to say whether there is more or less such corruption in Malaysia than in the US or other countries. However, for a tiny, nascent organisation like OSHCA, none of this is relevant. Suffice to say that Malaysian corporate law should be more than adequate for OSHCA's purposes. That's correct, isn't it Molly? We are more familiar with the situation in the US. Well, yes. I am more familiar with Australian law. But that doesn't mean that I regard the legal regimes in every other country with suspicion. It is more of a question of comparing what is required and what you can do with a corporation in Malaysia than in the US. The decision shouldn't be made on political grounds but on technical grounds, in my opinion. Given what OSHCA hopes to achieve - things like engaging with UN-sponsored initiatives such as WSIS and perhaps with national and international development agencies - I think that incorporation in Malaysia (or some other non-aligned developing or transitional country) is a *much* more sound choice, from a political perspective, than incorporation in the US (or other G8 or other rich nations, but particularly the US, particularly at the moment). Tim C Molly Cheah wrote: I was born in Malaysia and lived through the period where we obtained independance from the British and from whom our legal framework was adopted. Just wondering what are the concerns of Richard and David on the legal protection for OSHCA. Can you elaborate rather than make a comment that imply there isn't legal protection. Incidently we don't have the equivalence of Guantanano Bay in Malaysia. Molly Joseph Dal Molin wrote: Legal protection in the context of an organization like OSHCA is IMHO not a major concern. What is more important is how the countries laws influence governance. David Forslund wrote: I don't understand why this is good or even relevant. What should matter is the legal protection provided by the incorporation in the various countries participating, which I think was Richard's point. Dave Forslund Yahoo! Groups Links YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group openhealth http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update
Molly, I think you should incorporate in Malaysia eventually. As a Malaysian you'll have a very easy time doing it and know what it means. The members of the protem committee have been discussing OSCHA incorporation since 2002 or perhaps earlier if memory serves. Why it didn't happen in France or Canada already is a mystery to me. globalknowledge.org provides a wonderful model. Is Microsoft the only north-American company a member of globalknowledge.org? Richard Molly Cheah wrote: David, There is and not may be because there are legal frameworks (acts of parliament) that governs corporations, civil societies, unions etc. If OSHCA is to be my organisation, I would have it up in 3 days (not one as suggested by Richard). My timeline of 3 months is not due to technical grounds for setting it up but rather to allow members and the protem committee to discuss and accept what should go into the incorporation papers. The procedures are laid out and transparent. Even the choice of incorporation in a developing country went through discussions on this list and there were no objections. I picked Malaysia because I'm from here and I had undertaken to do the job. If anyone else would like to volunteer to do the job please by all means. The other reason why I picked Malaysia is provided by the evidence of the incorporation and success of the global knowledge partnership http://www.globalknowledge.org. There are several other similar organisations too. And look at the list of GKP members, their activities etc. Please enumerate what we want to do in OSHCA that is not done by global knowledge partnership. We had already gone through discussions on OSHCA's vision, mission statements, principles and activities. Though this is out of context here, Malaysia has a secular constitution and therefore it is not an islamic country, though majority of the population are muslims. Unfortunately the media especially in the US says we are an islamic state and most people rely on the media for information and believes them. But this (muslim or secular) should not be of concern to anyone. Molly David Forslund wrote: There may be legal protection, etc in Malaysia. We are more familiar with the situation in the US. It is more of a question of comparing what is required and what you can do with a corporation in Malaysia than in the US. The decision shouldn't be made on political grounds but on technical grounds, in my opinion. Dave Molly Cheah wrote: I was born in Malaysia and lived through the period where we obtained independance from the British and from whom our legal framework was adopted. Just wondering what are the concerns of Richard and David on the legal protection for OSHCA. Can you elaborate rather than make a comment that imply there isn't legal protection. Incidently we don't have the equivalence of Guantanano Bay in Malaysia. Molly Joseph Dal Molin wrote: Legal protection in the context of an organization like OSHCA is IMHO not a major concern. What is more important is how the countries laws influence governance. David Forslund wrote: I don't understand why this is good or even relevant. What should matter is the legal protection provided by the incorporation in the various countries participating, which I think was Richard's point. Dave Forslund Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update
I think at a certain point this becomes an issue of doers vs. talkers. Talking is fine, but from previous discussions I understood that while many people are interested there are few that can commit serious money or time to this process. I know that I certainly cannot afford any time to help right now. If Dr. Cheah is willing to do the encorporation work, then I think Dr. Cheah should choose were to encorporate. If, later, the goals of the organization do not square with the location of encorporation then they can simply encorporate somewhere else. The issue is who owns the domain name. So re-encorporating boils down to transferring the domain owner, pretty simple. I am not trying to say that the issues being discussed are not important, I am only saying that moving forward is more important. Let the doers decide. -FT information all wrong with regards to Malaysia's Constitutional Monarchy. -- Fred Trotter SynSeer, Consultant http://www.fredtrotter.com http://www.synseer.com phone: (480)290-8109 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update
My apologies, I mean qualify the governance of OSHCA's assets Molly Dr Molly Cheah wrote: I've copy and paste the email from Networksolutions on the completion of the transfer of oshca.org from Minoru Corporation to OSHCA which is self explanatory on your question who owns the domain name. oshca.net is the other domain name that is owned by OSHCA. Nationally the incorporation of OSHCA will quality the governance of these assets. I've also noted that Brian has posted to the list on the use of openhealth on the yahoo list and the closure of the Minoru list. Molly Fred Trotter wrote: I think at a certain point this becomes an issue of doers vs. talkers. Talking is fine, but from previous discussions I understood that while many people are interested there are few that can commit serious money or time to this process. I know that I certainly cannot afford any time to help right now. If Dr. Cheah is willing to do the encorporation work, then I think Dr. Cheah should choose were to encorporate. If, later, the goals of the organization do not square with the location of encorporation then they can simply encorporate somewhere else. The issue is who owns the domain name. Dear Network Solutions Customer, Your transfer request has been successfully completed. Please see below for the details of the transfer: From Account Number: 24342680 From Account Holder: Minoru Development Corporation To Account Number: 30023835 To Account Holder: The Open Source Health Care Alliance Domain Name(s): OSHCA.ORG If you have any questions or need assistance, please contact Customer Service at [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]. Thank you for choosing Network Solutions. We are committed to delivering high quality services to meet your online needs. Sincerely, Network Solutions Customer Support Your Network Solutions services are subject to the terms and conditions set forth in our Service Agreement which you accepted at the time of purchase. You can view the complete Service Agreement again at: http://goto.networksolutions.com/service-agreement http://cclinks.networksolutions.com/?emailid=1965796090fwdurl=http://goto.networksolutions.com/service-agreement. This e-mail was sent from a notification only address and cannot receive incoming messages. © Copyright 2006 Network Solutions, LLC. All rights reserved. Network Solutions, 13861 Sunrise Valley Drive, Department CCD, Herndon, VA 20171 So re-encorporating boils down to transferring the domain owner, pretty simple. I am not trying to say that the issues being discussed are not important, I am only saying that moving forward is more important. Let the doers decide. -FT information all wrong with regards to Malaysia's Constitutional Monarchy. -- Fred Trotter SynSeer, Consultant http://www.fredtrotter.com http://www.synseer.com phone: (480)290-8109 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update
Thank you Dr. Molly. What you wrote is very helpful and answers my concerns about intellectual property protections afforded to Malaysian incorporation. But, I'm still not convinced I know enough to say it's a great idea to start there. You're right - I need to spend some time there, and will eventually. And BTW, I'm not just talking, I'm trying to figure out how much it's going to take me to actually execute the incorporation here in the U.S. when you all are ready. see below ... Dr Molly Cheah wrote: (snip) But why start of with a US incorporation? Past discussions clearly indicate that the membership do not want a US dominated OSHCA. I don't view the situation as US dominated or not. We'll have to get a US incorporation at some point to have a US presence. Your big economic impact and market is in the U.S. As a Malaysian company you have to play in the U.S. as a foreign interest. As a domestic U.S. corporation it's much easier. I can help you more if you start here. I can't help you as much if you start elsewhere. I know there's a lot of bad sentiment toward American companies right now in some circles, but you know what? It doesn't matter. I believe those fears will dissipate as long as we stay focused on OSCHA's mission. We're getting software distributed here, not playing politics. I don't agree that US incorporation offers more legal protection than Malaysia which are also signatories to International Conventions and legal frameworks and taking them seriously. Under the law OSHCA will be a legal entity with rights to all provisions under the relevent acts. Incidently Malaysia is not a new regime and we got our independence from the British in 1957. Before that we were colonized by the Portugese, then the Dutch and then the British. Stabilized by US based parent? How so? The U.S. economy is much more stable. Investments into open souce here already rivals that of any foreign government's investment into open source.There's simply more money to be had here to support OSCHA's progams. And there's more prescedent in the U.S. for protecting the individual's (not government sponsored) open source properties. Here's how else a US based parent offers stability: if OSCHA's intellectual properties (the open source software) technically originates from the U.S. it will be much more difficult for foreign entities to challenge that ownership. I'm not worried about *Malaysia*. I'm worried about China, North Korea, and a few other countries. I want to see OSCHA stand firm internationally. An organization's/individual's ability to protect open source is unquestionably great in the U.S. Linus Torvalds owns Linux under US copyright, which has allowed him to protect it and keep it open sourced. OSCHA's ability to enforce ownership of software and license it under open souce licensing dramatically affects my ability to contribute to the intellectual property itself. I plan to apply for tax-exempt status, in addition to the non-profit status which will automatically be given. That means that donors to OSHCA do not pay taxation on their donations to OSHCA and OSHCA does not have to pay tax on the donations received. There is no control on the repatriation of monies earned in Malaysia. nice. This is key! I didn't know that Malaysia is politically unstable and I don't know of any assets that had been suddenly owned by someone else. But I'm amazed by your perceptions of Malaysia. I would be happy to play host and invite you to come and see Malaysia. I'm not saying there's a problem, per-say, today. I happen to be a big fan of Malaysia. It has a lot of promise. I would agree Malaysia is relatively stable, perhaps even more than Mexico - certainly more stable than Argentina. Not more stable than the U.S. And it's easier to operate without guanxi connections in the U.S. because of that difference. I've not mentioned about Govt funding. I did say that it would be easier to get funding for OSHCA activities from the likes of organisations like UNDP, IDRC, CIDA, SIDA etc. Maybe I failed to market or hard sell Malaysia for our purpose. As for incentive programmes and other Govt offers, it is obvious that you are not aware of the Malaysian Govt's Policy on Open Source, incentives related to ICT companies and projects. Well, you're correct about my lack of awareness there. It's hard to find that kind of information. http://opensource.mampu.gov.my/index.php?option=contenttask=viewid=20Itemid=38 But, there's a careful balance to be aware of here. Is the government driving Malaysia's open source development or the Malaysian market? More government funding means more quanxi required to play in the open source market. Whose interests are represented there? Keeping OSCHA development a part of free market dynamics is pretty important too. I see a lot of open source vendors and the Malaysian government
Re: next steps. (was Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thanks for your offer Richard. Molly and others have spent a great deal of time in developing this organization. While it is not a particularly inviting subject, the ideology of 'where to incorporate' first is an issue. One that has been discussed privately and publicly over the past four years. Incorporation in various countries can follow if required at a later date. Molly's assertiveness is appreciated (at least by me) in her ability to make things happen in a timely manner. She deserves your support. Molly has done well in establishing an international coalition for the protem board. Molly, your work is appreciated even if not globally recognized. Please carry on. It is important, in the global business arena, that OSHCA is an 'entity'. Being registered as an organization/corporation is VERY important. Regards, Tim Cook Richard Schilling wrote: As soon as I have those four things, I'll get the paperwork drafted. Looks like OSCHA would be technically classified in the U.S. as an international trade association. Non-profit as well. I have an office that can be used here in Seattle as a base for OSHCA activities. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3rc2 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEKh3AMOzvb7luwR0RAlvaAJkB9HVcB1Imbq4bHsrQ065ee7CgXACdESdS 3dtosnCNUt2mf1rpuMj0nMM= =aF/O -END PGP SIGNATURE- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: next steps. (was Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update)
Molly certainly has my support. I don't mean to suggest she doesn't. And I do appreciate her assertiveness as well. Ultimately I can work with any locale of registration to some degree. Tim, I offered to help four years ago too when this subject was being kicked around. I'm certain that things would have gotten much farther than they have by now if Minoru hadn't taken so long to transfer the OSHCA trademark to an independent organization. Molly deserves extra credit for hanging in there. I'm anxious to see things progress. It doesn't sound like, though, you or anyone is interested in seeing a U.S. component. Is that true? Richard Tim Cook wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thanks for your offer Richard. Molly and others have spent a great deal of time in developing this organization. While it is not a particularly inviting subject, the ideology of 'where to incorporate' first is an issue. One that has been discussed privately and publicly over the past four years. Incorporation in various countries can follow if required at a later date. Molly's assertiveness is appreciated (at least by me) in her ability to make things happen in a timely manner. She deserves your support. Molly has done well in establishing an international coalition for the protem board. Molly, your work is appreciated even if not globally recognized. Please carry on. It is important, in the global business arena, that OSHCA is an 'entity'. Being registered as an organization/corporation is VERY important. Regards, Tim Cook Richard Schilling wrote: As soon as I have those four things, I'll get the paperwork drafted. Looks like OSCHA would be technically classified in the U.S. as an international trade association. Non-profit as well. I have an office that can be used here in Seattle as a base for OSHCA activities. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3rc2 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEKh3AMOzvb7luwR0RAlvaAJkB9HVcB1Imbq4bHsrQ065ee7CgXACdESdS 3dtosnCNUt2mf1rpuMj0nMM= =aF/O -END PGP SIGNATURE- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: next steps. (was Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update)
Agreed, Tim. Molly is a long-standing member of the FOSS healthcare community and deserves kudos for running with OSHCA. As an American, I am certainly more comfortable with the US legal system than I am with the Malaysian system but (a) I understand that no legal system is perfect, (b) I trust Molly and the rest of the pro tem committee, and (c) no matter which country is selected, there will be some who are more comfortable with it than others. So, as far as I am concerned, Molly et al - go for it. Perhaps in the future we can create and incorporate national branches / franchises of OSHCA in each country. For now, thank you for your willingness to take it forward. Regards -- Bhaskar On Tue, 2006-03-28 at 23:40 -0600, Tim Cook wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thanks for your offer Richard. Molly and others have spent a great deal of time in developing this organization. While it is not a particularly inviting subject, the ideology of 'where to incorporate' first is an issue. One that has been discussed privately and publicly over the past four years. Incorporation in various countries can follow if required at a later date. Molly's assertiveness is appreciated (at least by me) in her ability to make things happen in a timely manner. She deserves your support. Molly has done well in establishing an international coalition for the protem board. Molly, your work is appreciated even if not globally recognized. Please carry on. It is important, in the global business arena, that OSHCA is an 'entity'. Being registered as an organization/corporation is VERY important. Regards, Tim Cook Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update
Richard Schilling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Wow after all that feedback I'm honestly trying to pick where to start on this one. I'm seeing some confusion here between legal aspects and the socio-political. Perhaps this is because socio-political is far more important in asia than in the US :-) I agree to what you are saying, but there is another aspect here I am trying to bring out. The laws in US are a biit too rigid for asian countries. Their purses are samll, and yet, they want to use ICT for their development. This is not the time to have too many impediments - legal or other. WHile copyrights are OK, patents on software is a problem. Maybe I am wrong? If so please tell me!! NandA Molly, I'm not implying that there's no legal protection in Malaysia. I'm saying, based on what I know there's less protection than in the U.S. Malaysia is a constitutional monarchy. All peninsular Malaysian states except two have hereditary rulers, which, for a company means that the laws governing corporations can be set along heridetary lines rather than an independent legal standard. Read: muslim, heridetary lines. Is OSCHA a religious organization or an independent world-wide technological organization accessible to everyone regardless of religious conviction? (Tim, you're not making any sense with your star and crescent comment). And, what I'm suggesting is that you start with a U.S. incorporation. Then incorporate elsewhere. What is below is point/counter-point. And, it's not talking about suitability based on religion, the people or any other facet other than legal. So, let me boil this down to simple terms: 1. Legal protections: U.S. incorporation means that as a U.S. company, OSHCA has the same rights as an individual. Intellectual property rights and agreements are upheld. In other countries, especially ones with new regimes, this might not be the case. U.S. subsidiaries running in non-U.S. countries would work just fine and be stabilized by the U.S. based parent. 2. Repatriation of capital: As OSCHA earns fees, receives donations, pays taxes, etc... it's much more straightforward in the U.S. I believe. The tax burden on a non-profit like OSHCA would be minimal or non-existent. 3. Political stability: In politically less-stable countries (e.g. Malaysia, Taiwan, Mexico, South Africa, Haiti, etc..) when regimes change so does the law - you can find your corporation and all its assets suddenly owned by someone else. 4. Government funding: incorporating in a country because it looks like there's government funding is a bad idea. You need a much harder offer than that. What are the incentive programs, specifically that the other government offers? Who, specifically in the government, is offering them? Richard Molly Cheah wrote: I was born in Malaysia and lived through the period where we obtained independance from the British and from whom our legal framework was adopted. Just wondering what are the concerns of Richard and David on the legal protection for OSHCA. Can you elaborate rather than make a comment that imply there isn't legal protection. Incidently we don't have the equivalence of Guantanano Bay in Malaysia. Molly Joseph Dal Molin wrote: Legal protection in the context of an organization like OSHCA is IMHO not a major concern. What is more important is how the countries laws influence governance. David Forslund wrote: I don't understand why this is good or even relevant. What should matter is the legal protection provided by the incorporation in the various countries participating, which I think was Richard's point. Dave Forslund Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links - YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group openhealth on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - - New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update
Richard Schilling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The next GKP annual meeting is here in Sri Lanka. Anyone coming? :-) NandA Molly, I think you should incorporate in Malaysia eventually. As a Malaysian you'll have a very easy time doing it and know what it means. The members of the protem committee have been discussing OSCHA incorporation since 2002 or perhaps earlier if memory serves. Why it didn't happen in France or Canada already is a mystery to me. globalknowledge.org provides a wonderful model. Is Microsoft the only north-American company a member of globalknowledge.org? Richard Molly Cheah wrote: David, There is and not may be because there are legal frameworks (acts of parliament) that governs corporations, civil societies, unions etc. If OSHCA is to be my organisation, I would have it up in 3 days (not one as suggested by Richard). My timeline of 3 months is not due to technical grounds for setting it up but rather to allow members and the protem committee to discuss and accept what should go into the incorporation papers. The procedures are laid out and transparent. Even the choice of incorporation in a developing country went through discussions on this list and there were no objections. I picked Malaysia because I'm from here and I had undertaken to do the job. If anyone else would like to volunteer to do the job please by all means. The other reason why I picked Malaysia is provided by the evidence of the incorporation and success of the global knowledge partnership http://www.globalknowledge.org. There are several other similar organisations too. And look at the list of GKP members, their activities etc. Please enumerate what we want to do in OSHCA that is not done by global knowledge partnership. We had already gone through discussions on OSHCA's vision, mission statements, principles and activities. Though this is out of context here, Malaysia has a secular constitution and therefore it is not an islamic country, though majority of the population are muslims. Unfortunately the media especially in the US says we are an islamic state and most people rely on the media for information and believes them. But this (muslim or secular) should not be of concern to anyone. Molly David Forslund wrote: There may be legal protection, etc in Malaysia. We are more familiar with the situation in the US. It is more of a question of comparing what is required and what you can do with a corporation in Malaysia than in the US. The decision shouldn't be made on political grounds but on technical grounds, in my opinion. Dave Molly Cheah wrote: I was born in Malaysia and lived through the period where we obtained independance from the British and from whom our legal framework was adopted. Just wondering what are the concerns of Richard and David on the legal protection for OSHCA. Can you elaborate rather than make a comment that imply there isn't legal protection. Incidently we don't have the equivalence of Guantanano Bay in Malaysia. Molly Joseph Dal Molin wrote: Legal protection in the context of an organization like OSHCA is IMHO not a major concern. What is more important is how the countries laws influence governance. David Forslund wrote: I don't understand why this is good or even relevant. What should matter is the legal protection provided by the incorporation in the various countries participating, which I think was Richard's point. Dave Forslund Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links - YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group openhealth on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - - New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC for low, low rates. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: next steps. (was Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Richard Schilling wrote: Molly deserves extra credit for hanging in there. I'm anxious to see things progress. It doesn't sound like, though, you or anyone is interested in seeing a U.S. component. Is that true? Richard Hi Richard, Let me be quite clear in that I would enjoy seeing a US component. I doubt there is ANYONE more patriotic to the US than I (retired US Marine MSgt.) However, I try to be very pragmatic in world politics and quite frankly our latest President is a duff! If it was 1969 I would move to Canada anywaythough that is another story entirely. I love my country and in the great big scheme of things the men and women of he US are fair and decent people. However, the stage of politics is embarrassing and frankly depressing. As Ben Franklin said: - -- The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. Benjamin Franklin - --- Cheers, Tim -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3rc2 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEKiiSMOzvb7luwR0RAmGXAKCb07nRFLJXIedrwf34MpssbSdNMACfTc1R mqvdNrtrYQBGuRKMfjMzNI8= =jfzp -END PGP SIGNATURE- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: next steps. (was Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update)
I know Tim - a lot of people feel the way you do. I try to be as politically agnostic as I can in the FOSS realm, and sometimes that confuses people. Someone mentioned the bad U.S. press too. I don't watch U.S. news, BTW :-) I'm simply saying I'll do the work and give OSCHA a physical presence here, as long as I know there will be people there to sign up. I don't want to establish a U.S. presence for OSCHA that has no interest. Building up an OSCHA presence in the U.S. that spans political and international boundaries is vital. Richard Tim Cook wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Richard Schilling wrote: Molly deserves extra credit for hanging in there. I'm anxious to see things progress. It doesn't sound like, though, you or anyone is interested in seeing a U.S. component. Is that true? Richard Hi Richard, Let me be quite clear in that I would enjoy seeing a US component. I doubt there is ANYONE more patriotic to the US than I (retired US Marine MSgt.) However, I try to be very pragmatic in world politics and quite frankly our latest President is a duff! If it was 1969 I would move to Canada anywaythough that is another story entirely. I love my country and in the great big scheme of things the men and women of he US are fair and decent people. However, the stage of politics is embarrassing and frankly depressing. As Ben Franklin said: - -- The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. Benjamin Franklin - --- Cheers, Tim -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3rc2 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEKiiSMOzvb7luwR0RAmGXAKCb07nRFLJXIedrwf34MpssbSdNMACfTc1R mqvdNrtrYQBGuRKMfjMzNI8= =jfzp -END PGP SIGNATURE- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: next steps. (was Re: [openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update)
Tim Cook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am a great admierer of the US and it's people, the films, the sports, the comics on which I was introduced to reading :-) I still think it is one of the best countires and even the President is not all bad flamebait Most of the FOSS software come from the US too. Definitely no anti-US sentiments from here. But we worry about the laws which stifle the development of lesser developed countires in their progress inICT. Nandalal -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Richard Schilling wrote: Molly deserves extra credit for hanging in there. I'm anxious to see things progress. It doesn't sound like, though, you or anyone is interested in seeing a U.S. component. Is that true? Richard Hi Richard, Let me be quite clear in that I would enjoy seeing a US component. I doubt there is ANYONE more patriotic to the US than I (retired US Marine MSgt.) However, I try to be very pragmatic in world politics and quite frankly our latest President is a duff! If it was 1969 I would move to Canada anywaythough that is another story entirely. I love my country and in the great big scheme of things the men and women of he US are fair and decent people. However, the stage of politics is embarrassing and frankly depressing. As Ben Franklin said: - -- The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. Benjamin Franklin - --- Cheers, Tim -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3rc2 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEKiiSMOzvb7luwR0RAmGXAKCb07nRFLJXIedrwf34MpssbSdNMACfTc1R mqvdNrtrYQBGuRKMfjMzNI8= =jfzp -END PGP SIGNATURE- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] SPONSORED LINKS Software distribution Salon software Medical software Software association Software jewelry Software deployment - YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group openhealth on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - - Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1cent;/min. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[openhealth] Important announcement and oshca update
Dear all, I am happy to annouce that the transfer of the domain name oshca.org from Brian had been completed. Brian is in the process of creating and signing a document disclaiming rights to the OSHCA trademark. Thank you Brian for these initiatives. I understand that Brian will also make a decision with regards to the fate of the openhealth lists on Minoru and Yahoo by this weekend. I'll leave that to Brian to make that annoucement. As for the status of OSHCA, the protem committee members (volunteers expressed on the list as well as those agreed to serve when requested) are as follows: Joseph dal Molin (Canada/US) Adrian Midgley (UK/Europe) Thomas Beale (Australia/Pacific islands) Nandalal Gunaratne (Sri Lanka/Asia) Molly Cheah (Malaysia/Asia) I hope to keep the protem committee small for quick decision making but hope to add 2 more names, preferably from South America and Africa/Middle East by the time we submit the incorporation documents for registration. Please volunteer. These numbers and representation structure can change after incorporation if members wish so. I don't know how much discussion should go into the incorporation process or how much time should be alotted. My proposed timeline for completion of incorporation is 3 months from 15th April 2006 - tentative date for submission of papers. We should have OSHCA ressurrected by 15th July 2006, barring unforseen circumstances. Here are my assumptions in order to realise this initiative: 1. Provisions in the constitution/MA of OSHCA is a living document and can be changed by members' majority wishes. For purpose of incorporation, we will take into consideration past discussions (2002-2004) and make the provisions as general and flexible as possible to meet incorporation requirements. 2. There is no objection to incorporate ina developing country like Malaysia. There will be provisions for setting up geographical sections/branches etc with as much de-centralization as possible. 3.The Vision, Mission Statements, Principles and Activities as discussed earlier this year will be included in the incorporation papers. Any suggestion of changes posted on the Yahoo list by 15th April will be taken into consideration by the protem committee for incorporation. Procedures will be provided for amendments to be made after incorporation. 4. Elections for new committee members can take place immediately after incorporation. Provision will be made for the protem committee to stay on for a defined number of months to attend to teething issues that may arise. 5. The yahoo list will continue to discuss organising the 1st post-incorporation OSHCA meeting scheduled for later part of 2006 to kick-start/launch OSHCA. This may not be in the form of a full conference. I would like to see presentations of current status of open source healthcare solutions/applicaions. It should also provide the opportunity to include indepth discussions on planning for the future of OSHCA so that its resurrection becomes meaningful - reflecting more than just a community of open source enthusiasts in health care. If there are no other bidders, I plan to get funding to do this in Malaysia. Naturally it may be on a modest scale. Please feel free to propose ideas.The protem committee will work on an action plan and invite volunteers to help. Molly Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
