Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

[Michael Ennen]

I am not trying to create an OpenJFX repository that is maintained to any
degree
 But, in my work on the Robot API I also went ahead and created the
necessary
infrastructure to get OpenJFX building on Appveyor (Windows continuous
integration) and Travis CI (both Linux and macOS continuious integration).

You can see the commits to the repository here:
https://github.com/brcolow/openjfx/commits/master

Currently some of it is silly (like using the github releases deployment to
host screen
captures of failed tests) but that can all be very easily adapted.

Adding in the deployment of the actual build artifacts and creating a
mercurial
to git mirror would allow us to get live builds for all three major
platforms.

My work in this area may be useful for anyone who wants to maintain an
OpenJFX community repository for fielding contributions from a wider
field which can then be submitted to Oracle.

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 12:26 AM, Chris Newland 
wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> Here's my $0.02 on JavaFX as someone who's used it for over 4 years in the
> JITWatch project (https://github.com/AdoptOpenJDK/jitwatch) and also for
> fun with my DemoFX benchmarks (https://github.com/chriswhocodes/DemoFX).
>
> On the whole I think the API is very good. Event handling, layout, choice
> of components give me 99% of what I need.
>
> The CSS approach to styling feels a bit clunky when I want to change
> fine-grained appearance programatically without defining new CSS classes.
> Proper font metrics would be nice too (already discussed recently).
>
> The Canvas/GraphicsContext API provides a decent entry point into "old
> school" 2D programming and a way to avoid the scenegraph which does suffer
> with scale when you push it too hard. You can do fun things with
> PixelReader/Writer.
>
> Personally I'd like an even lower level API to framebuffers as the current
> implementation looks a bit copy-heavy (my opinion from just the source
> code, I've not had time to see how much the JIT saves us here). I'd really
> like the video frame grabber API for MediaPlayer (deprecated after 8)
> added back but I'm probably alone here. I can always go off-heap here or
> just implement a video decoder in pure Java.
>
> For 3D I think a component that provides a surface usable by an existing
> OpenGL library is probably better than trying to replicate in pure OpenJFX
> but this isn't really my area.
>
> I was disappointed when Oracle decided to drop support for ARM / IoT but
> that's no reflection on the JavaFX team, just a commercial decision by a
> cloud-focused company. I've tried to keep IoT support going via community
> builds of JavaFX 8 at https://www.chriswhocodes.com but I never really
> cracked getting Windows builds working. I'm hoping to find some time next
> year to work with the AdoptOpenJDK group (CC'd) and Laurent Borges
> (Marlin/MarlinFX) to improve early access testing and cross-platform
> support of OpenJFX builds. This got a lot harder since the modular JDK9
> where you can no longer simply modify OpenJFX, rebuild, and drop an
> overlay onto your JRE.
>
> There are a few companies doing great work (Canoo, Gluon etc.) and a long
> list of community individuals (Gerrit, Carl, Sean, Almas, Johan, Alessio,
> Sven, Andres, Dirk, Dierk, Michael, Jens, Jose, ... actually the more I
> think about it the longer this list gets) who showcase what is possible.
>
> The Gluon mobile stuff looks really interesting and I've just started
> trying to rewrite an iOS native app into a cross-platform app using their
> Eclipse plugin.
>
> In summary I'm very happy with JavaFX and I think the community, while
> small, contains a lot of talent and energy.
>
> The "official" OpenJFX devs are responsive to the community while being
> realistic about what can be achieved outside their sanctioned roadmap.
>
> If there's 1 single thing I'd like to ask for it's an updated set of build
> instructions for each platform. That's the biggest barrier to getting more
> community patches submitted in my opinion.
>
> Just the $0.02 of one JavaFX user ;)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Chris
> --
> @chriswhocodes
>
>
>
> On Wed, December 13, 2017 02:28, John-Val Rose wrote:
> > I posted this over a week ago:
> >
> >
> >> I am willing to work with *anyone* (within Oracle or not) on the
> >> features
> > that the community craves,
> >> such as those I listed (and any others). Not just because “many hands
> > make light work” but because
> >> I don’t know everything (or even close) and I need the knowledge and
> >>
> > skills of others to assist me. Not
> >> to mention that I have only 24 hours in a day like everyone else and,
> > also like everyone else, some of
> >> that time has to be devoted to earning an income.
> >>
> >> So, if there’s anyone reading this who has the time, the skills, the
> >>
> > commitment and the passion to work hard (in your own time) to get these
> > tasks done then please contact me privately.
> >
> > To my significant 

Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

[Michael Paus]

Hi,
first of all I would like to say that I fully agree with everything that 
has been

said so far in this thread and I am glad that someone is pushing this long
overdue discussion. Please find my comments inline.

Am 15.12.17 um 10:09 schrieb John-Val Rose:

[...]

This initiative/team/group should not be "hidden" either - it should be
completely transparent and open to enable anyone to follow the thought
processes, the progress and the results and also to comment, constructively
criticise, make suggestions and even make small contributions. This team is
not operating in competition with Oracle - quite the opposite in fact.
It's there to complement the already great efforts of the Oracle JavaFX
team.

I am familiar with "The Java EE Guardians" and while I am not proposing
that we do something with exactly the same model, their results speak for
themselves.  I am open to suggestions and ideas about how such a group/team
should be structured and the governance and actually hope that as many
people as possible chime-in with their own "2 cents".

I'm just offering to be the central contact point for now and then the
consensus can determine how we proceed.
A lot has already been discussed on this list and elsewhere but my 
impression
is that all these ideas are forgotten faster than they are written up 
because
there is no place to collect them and no person to organize and 
administer such
a place. If such a place existed I would be more than happy to share my 
ideas

with others.

Yes, Chris is absolutely spot-on about the build issues.  For the broader
community to be able to contribute or be motivated to contribute, the
process must be as simple as possible and first-things-first, we have to be
able to reliably build OpenJFX on all supported platforms.  No developer
wants to waste time with build issues; they just want to code.  I would
suggest that this is something Oracle prioritise ahead of perhaps
everything else with OpenJFX 9/10 (and that anyone who has advanced
knowledge of the tools or the DevOps pipeline try to help as well).
Yes, I see this as a big stumbling stone as well. I would like to add 
that it would

also be necessary to advertise the use of such builds and to harmonize the
handling of version numbers of such builds. I currently have a lot of 
problems

using my own builds as well as the EA builds from Oracle with the existing
build tools and IDEs. Many of them get a hick-up if they encounter build 
versions

beyond the current/official versions.


As you can see, Chris has basically given us his feature/fix "wish list"
and I have received the wish lists of many others and, of course, I have my
own.

One thing that I have often referred to is the *competitors* of JavaFX
(like Qt and Xamarin) and how we are lagging behind them and that the "gap"
is growing.  But one could argue that from another perspective, JavaFX is
actually itself its only real competitor being the official Java GUI
toolkit (having supplanted Swing).  I like this idea because we all know
there are about 11 million Java developers in the world and I am sure most
agree that Java (or the JVM) should have a first-class graphics toolkit so
all of us who love Java and who eat, breathe & live Java don't have to
"turn to the dark side" and learn or relearn languages like C++ or (dare I
say it) C# (aka "Microsoft Java").

We can observe what is happening with other toolkits and also keep our
fingers on the pulse of graphics toolkit technology directions/advancements
in general and use these as inspirations for how we decide to enhance
JavaFX.  I think I was probably wrong or at least misguided to think that
we need to try to make JavaFX "a Java version of Qt" for example.  Perhaps
we just need JavaFX to meet the major requirements of Java GUI developers
and be able to use it to produce *modern* commercial applications that look
great, work well and hold their own against other products, all the while
we are not having to drift away from Java or the JVM.
In order for this to become true JavaFX first needs to get some basics 
right.

My keyword here would be:
- Platform integration (e.g. Mac menu bar.)
- Working packager on all platforms
- An automatic update mechanism for applications (not WebStart)


So to summarise (while you are hopefully still awake), I am not suggesting
that I try to tell others what to do or what JavaFX should or shouldn't be
but rather that I am simply offering to be the central contact who
coordinates the ideas, the efforts and the team in general and also to act
as a liaison with Oracle or any other company that can be involved.  I can
also try to set-up any infrastructure required such as a website, a mailing
list, Google group, GitHub project etc.

For collecting and structuring of ideas something like GitHub and its Wiki
seem to be a better suited than a mailing list (which we already have.).


If the community feels I am not the best person for this role then that's
perfectly OK!  I am more than 

RE: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

[Jago Westmacott]

Dear all, 

Chris' email has similarly motivated me to post for the first time.

I work with a small a 6 person team developing a proprietary distributed 
software platform.  The GUI is another 'node' or 'engine' on the graph of 
interconnected processes.  It provides a large number of different views on 
different sets of data via a docking framework. 

The majority of our data views consist of custom tables and tree-tables, that 
allow fast filtering, slicing and dicing, aggregating, etc. of large data sets.

Our Gui was originally written in Swing and the performance / responsiveness 
was excellent.  The code was optimised using various well known Swing 
optimisations - and the end result was supper snappy and a delight to use. 

About three years ago we migrated to JavaFx. The motivation behind the 
migration was simply to build a more attractive Gui (particularly improved text 
rendering and animations), because people do judge a book by its cover.  Our 
original Swing Gui was lightweight (same basic components being reused and 
minimal business logic) so in theory this would be a relatively painless 
exercise. 

The end result was (and still is) a more attractive Gui - but building it was 
an extremely painful process.  We find the basic 2D performance of JavaFx poor. 
 To the extent that we ended up writing our own custom table components using a 
Canvas as a viewport on the underlying data.  While we get adequate performance 
using our custom components - the general experience in terms of 
responsiveness, is still a little disappointing when compared to the Swing 
original.  

My biggest frustration, I think, has been that the response I have often read 
when performance concerns have been mentioned, is that performance is fine and 
JavaFx is built for modern hardware.  

Apart from not agreeing that the performance is fine - an area where Java still 
maintains its popularity is in the 'enterprise' - and don't feel that JavaFx 
caters well for the types of Gui's that are typically found in this space.

To get the point after a rambling email, top of my wish-list would be better 
performance.  Or better access to the underlying API, to enable building of 
lighter weight, optimised 2D components.  


- Jago

-Original Message-
From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of 
Laurent Bourgès
Sent: 15 December 2017 10:38
To: John-Val Rose <johnvalr...@gmail.com>
Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net Mailing <openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net>
Subject: Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

Dear all,

Chris mail motivated me to answer too.

*** For *your* situation, what is JavaFX, how do you want it to evolve and what 
does it mean to you? ***


I am developping for 10 years scientific desktop apps with Java Swing  (+ Java 
Web Start).
As our users are mostly using linux & macOS, we only require JDK 6 !
(old linux distributions had only openjdk6 by default)

Of course we could switch our code base to jdk8 soon as user stats reports that 
90% have it.

Using JDK8 would let us adopt JavaFX lately ... for its nicer widgets & 3d 
plots (star models) but we could also use third-party libs for 3d plots (orson 
charts).

My main concern is about the future of Java Client (2d / JFX)...

For science, python is the main language so we are outsiders and users complain 
about Java updates... if JavaFX is no more in the mood, we will not adopt it in 
future  as our service is offered for 10 years min ...

Finally I invested a lot of my own time improving the OpenJDK/JFX AA renderers 
(Marlin) and had the chance to work with Oracle gentle persons on its 
integration in jdk9/10.
My own experience proves that good FOSS & external contributions have their 
place in the OpenJDK projects.
Let's the community get more involved to contribute patches to these projects.

The main issue is sustainability:
- who will maintain / review patches (only few people) ?
- what funding for the community (meeting, conference, travel costs) ?

Cheers,
Laurent


Maybe I really am "Robinson Crusoe"...


PS: I feel like the last jedi
(coding legacy AA software renderers while others use Gpu)

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Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

[Laurent Bourgès]

Dear all,

Chris mail motivated me to answer too.

*** For *your* situation, what is JavaFX, how do you want it to evolve and
what does it mean to you? ***


I am developping for 10 years scientific desktop apps with Java Swing  (+
Java Web Start).
As our users are mostly using linux & macOS, we only require JDK 6 !
(old linux distributions had only openjdk6 by default)

Of course we could switch our code base to jdk8 soon as user stats reports
that 90% have it.

Using JDK8 would let us adopt JavaFX lately ... for its nicer widgets & 3d
plots (star models) but we could also use third-party libs for 3d plots
(orson charts).

My main concern is about the future of Java Client (2d / JFX)...

For science, python is the main language so we are outsiders and users
complain about Java updates... if JavaFX is no more in the mood, we will
not adopt it in future  as our service is offered for 10 years min ...

Finally I invested a lot of my own time improving the OpenJDK/JFX AA
renderers (Marlin) and had the chance to work with Oracle gentle persons on
its integration in jdk9/10.
My own experience proves that good FOSS & external contributions have their
place in the OpenJDK projects.
Let's the community get more involved to contribute patches to these
projects.

The main issue is sustainability:
- who will maintain / review patches (only few people) ?
- what funding for the community (meeting, conference, travel costs) ?

Cheers,
Laurent


Maybe I really am "Robinson Crusoe"...


PS: I feel like the last jedi
(coding legacy AA software renderers while others use Gpu)

Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

[John-Val Rose]

Thanks for that extensive and very insightful response Chris.

Let me make something very clear, just in case people have the wrong idea:
I am not here to complain, stir-up trouble or to criticise anyone.  In
fact, I greatly admire the JavaFX team at Oracle and what they are managing
to achieve within what seem like some fairly tight constraints.  The entire
Java team at Oracle includes some absolute legends and true rock stars and
the JavaFX team is no exception.  I just wish they had a bigger budget and
a bigger team... but fortunately, as Chris says, there is a vibrant and
surprisingly large community and OpenJFX is open-source.

My "frustration" is that I have a lofty vision of what JavaFX *could* be
and what I really want it to be but can also see that it's not there and
seemingly not heading there with any great momentum.  I keep getting back
to "innovation" and the apparent lack of innovation happening with
OpenJFX.  Since JavaFX 2, other than the inclusion of some basic 3D
features, I just don't see any major new enhancements and don't see any
discussions or proposals for major new features.  Then there's the absence
of a product roadmap which suggests to me that the Oracle team is basically
keeping the ship afloat in a very light breeze with a broken rudder.  But
again, I am *not* blaming the team themselves. I am sure they are just as
frustrated as I am (and probably even more).

So, the question I ask myself is how do we enable this innovation to happen
within the prevailing parameters.  Clearly, it will require a lot of effort
from a lot of people and the cooperation of Oracle.  This effort would have
a much better chance of being successful if it was to be coordinated in at
least a semi-formal manner.  This leads to me the idea of offering to be
the coordinator (not the "boss", "leader" or "head honcho") of such a team
and act as both a facilitator and contributor.  I am happy now that several
people have contacted me privately in relation to this and I respect their
desire to remain out of the spotlight.  The available talent pool in the
community is absolutely amazing so I am hoping as many of these true
superstars can join this initiative and, together with Oracle,  we can
steer JavaFX forwards and add a powerful motor to power the ship. (I'm not
sure why I'm using so many nautical metaphors!).

This initiative/team/group should not be "hidden" either - it should be
completely transparent and open to enable anyone to follow the thought
processes, the progress and the results and also to comment, constructively
criticise, make suggestions and even make small contributions. This team is
not operating in competition with Oracle - quite the opposite in fact.
It's there to complement the already great efforts of the Oracle JavaFX
team.

I am familiar with "The Java EE Guardians" and while I am not proposing
that we do something with exactly the same model, their results speak for
themselves.  I am open to suggestions and ideas about how such a group/team
should be structured and the governance and actually hope that as many
people as possible chime-in with their own "2 cents".

I'm just offering to be the central contact point for now and then the
consensus can determine how we proceed.

Another thing which is becoming clear to me is that almost everyone has
some quite different ideas of what JavaFX should be or what they would like
to see included in the toolkit.  This is actually a good thing as it
highlights the potential for JavaFX but clearly not every idea can be
implemented.  But at least there are some key common issues and wishes that
we can probably tackle first.

Yes, Chris is absolutely spot-on about the build issues.  For the broader
community to be able to contribute or be motivated to contribute, the
process must be as simple as possible and first-things-first, we have to be
able to reliably build OpenJFX on all supported platforms.  No developer
wants to waste time with build issues; they just want to code.  I would
suggest that this is something Oracle prioritise ahead of perhaps
everything else with OpenJFX 9/10 (and that anyone who has advanced
knowledge of the tools or the DevOps pipeline try to help as well).

As you can see, Chris has basically given us his feature/fix "wish list"
and I have received the wish lists of many others and, of course, I have my
own.

One thing that I have often referred to is the *competitors* of JavaFX
(like Qt and Xamarin) and how we are lagging behind them and that the "gap"
is growing.  But one could argue that from another perspective, JavaFX is
actually itself its only real competitor being the official Java GUI
toolkit (having supplanted Swing).  I like this idea because we all know
there are about 11 million Java developers in the world and I am sure most
agree that Java (or the JVM) should have a first-class graphics toolkit so
all of us who love Java and who eat, breathe & live Java don't have to
"turn to the dark side" and learn or 

Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

[Chris Newland]

Hi John,

Here's my $0.02 on JavaFX as someone who's used it for over 4 years in the
JITWatch project (https://github.com/AdoptOpenJDK/jitwatch) and also for
fun with my DemoFX benchmarks (https://github.com/chriswhocodes/DemoFX).

On the whole I think the API is very good. Event handling, layout, choice
of components give me 99% of what I need.

The CSS approach to styling feels a bit clunky when I want to change
fine-grained appearance programatically without defining new CSS classes.
Proper font metrics would be nice too (already discussed recently).

The Canvas/GraphicsContext API provides a decent entry point into "old
school" 2D programming and a way to avoid the scenegraph which does suffer
with scale when you push it too hard. You can do fun things with
PixelReader/Writer.

Personally I'd like an even lower level API to framebuffers as the current
implementation looks a bit copy-heavy (my opinion from just the source
code, I've not had time to see how much the JIT saves us here). I'd really
like the video frame grabber API for MediaPlayer (deprecated after 8)
added back but I'm probably alone here. I can always go off-heap here or
just implement a video decoder in pure Java.

For 3D I think a component that provides a surface usable by an existing
OpenGL library is probably better than trying to replicate in pure OpenJFX
but this isn't really my area.

I was disappointed when Oracle decided to drop support for ARM / IoT but
that's no reflection on the JavaFX team, just a commercial decision by a
cloud-focused company. I've tried to keep IoT support going via community
builds of JavaFX 8 at https://www.chriswhocodes.com but I never really
cracked getting Windows builds working. I'm hoping to find some time next
year to work with the AdoptOpenJDK group (CC'd) and Laurent Borges
(Marlin/MarlinFX) to improve early access testing and cross-platform
support of OpenJFX builds. This got a lot harder since the modular JDK9
where you can no longer simply modify OpenJFX, rebuild, and drop an
overlay onto your JRE.

There are a few companies doing great work (Canoo, Gluon etc.) and a long
list of community individuals (Gerrit, Carl, Sean, Almas, Johan, Alessio,
Sven, Andres, Dirk, Dierk, Michael, Jens, Jose, ... actually the more I
think about it the longer this list gets) who showcase what is possible.

The Gluon mobile stuff looks really interesting and I've just started
trying to rewrite an iOS native app into a cross-platform app using their
Eclipse plugin.

In summary I'm very happy with JavaFX and I think the community, while
small, contains a lot of talent and energy.

The "official" OpenJFX devs are responsive to the community while being
realistic about what can be achieved outside their sanctioned roadmap.

If there's 1 single thing I'd like to ask for it's an updated set of build
instructions for each platform. That's the biggest barrier to getting more
community patches submitted in my opinion.

Just the $0.02 of one JavaFX user ;)

Cheers,

Chris
--
@chriswhocodes



On Wed, December 13, 2017 02:28, John-Val Rose wrote:
> I posted this over a week ago:
>
>
>> I am willing to work with *anyone* (within Oracle or not) on the
>> features
> that the community craves,
>> such as those I listed (and any others). Not just because “many hands
> make light work” but because
>> I don’t know everything (or even close) and I need the knowledge and
>>
> skills of others to assist me. Not
>> to mention that I have only 24 hours in a day like everyone else and,
> also like everyone else, some of
>> that time has to be devoted to earning an income.
>>
>> So, if there’s anyone reading this who has the time, the skills, the
>>
> commitment and the passion to work hard (in your own time) to get these
> tasks done then please contact me privately.
>
> To my significant disappointment, only one person has contacted me since
> then in relation to this proposal.
>
> I'm beginning to think that I am completely out of touch with the JavaFX
> community, what they actually want and also with exactly *what* JavaFX is
> or is meant to be.
>
> I have reached out on this list and via Twitter in the hope that an
> inspired and passionate group of developers could come together, pool
> their resources and collaborate on taking JavaFX as far is it can possibly
> go as a fully-fledged hardware-accelerated graphics toolkit for the JVM.
>
> But... it seem that my "vision" for JavaFX is unique to me and I have to
> say that I really don't understand why that is.
>
> Is it that the JavaFX community see it as merely a Swing replacement or
> "upgrade" and that there just aren't people out there who want to do more
> sophisticated things with a Java-based toolkit or at least see performance
>  increase dramatically?
>
> Or, do people feel that the kind of features you can find in say Qt
> cannot be added to JavaFX because it's a "Java thing": well all know how
> slow Java is and that if you want to do real animations, visualisations
> 

Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

[John-Val Rose]

I posted this over a week ago:

> I am willing to work with *anyone* (within Oracle or not) on the features
that the community craves,
> such as those I listed (and any others). Not just because “many hands
make light work” but because
> I don’t know everything (or even close) and I need the knowledge and
skills of others to assist me. Not
> to mention that I have only 24 hours in a day like everyone else and,
also like everyone else, some of
> that time has to be devoted to earning an income.
>
> So, if there’s anyone reading this who has the time, the skills, the
commitment and the passion to work hard (in your own time) to get these
tasks done then please contact me privately.

To my significant disappointment, only one person has contacted me since
then in relation to this proposal.

I'm beginning to think that I am completely out of touch with the JavaFX
community, what they actually want and also with exactly *what* JavaFX is
or is meant to be.

I have reached out on this list and via Twitter in the hope that an
inspired and passionate group of developers could come together, pool their
resources and collaborate on taking JavaFX as far is it can possibly go as
a fully-fledged hardware-accelerated graphics toolkit for the JVM.

But... it seem that my "vision" for JavaFX is unique to me and I have to
say that I really don't understand why that is.

Is it that the JavaFX community see it as merely a Swing replacement or
"upgrade" and that there just aren't people out there who want to do more
sophisticated things with a Java-based toolkit or at least see performance
increase dramatically?

Or, do people feel that the kind of features you can find in say Qt cannot
be added to JavaFX because it's a "Java thing": well all know how slow Java
is and that if you want to do real animations, visualisations etc. then you
have to use C++?

Well, it's not the 1990s anymore.  Java is NOT the problem.

So, what IS the problem?

I have to say that as chief architect for my company, if the JavaFX
community (and I include Oracle as a big part of that) simply don't want to
see innovation in JavaFX, won't support or contribute to making it happen
or feel they don't need it, causing JavaFX to lag further and further
behind other graphic toolkits and never be capable of supporting such
features as advanced animations, visualisations, games, 3D, VR, AR and have
proper HTML5 support etc. then, despite being a huge Java fan and advocate,
JavaFX simply can't even be on the table of technologies to choose from
when I'm developing a technological strategy.

So, I'd like to ask this multi-part question in the hope that as many
people reply as possible:

*** For *your* siutation, what is JavaFX, how do you want it to evolve and
what does it mean to you? ***

Maybe I really am "Robinson Crusoe"...

​​
Graciously,

John-Val Rose
Chief Scientist/Architect
Rosethorn Technology


On 6 December 2017 at 17:16, John-Val Rose  wrote:

> Absolutely - there needs to be a viable community that is not just Oracle.
>
> So, is there one? If not, how do we build one?
>
> OK, so let me rephrase my earlier email:
>
> I am willing to work with *anyone* (within Oracle or not) on the features
> that the community craves, such as those I listed (and any others). Not
> just because “many hands make light work” but because I don’t know
> everything (or even close) and I need the knowledge and skills of others to
> assist me. Not to mention that I have only 24 hours in a day like everyone
> else and, also like everyone else, some of that time has to be devoted to
> earning an income.
>
> So, if there’s anyone reading this who has the time, the skills, the
> commitment and the passion to work hard (in your own time) to get these
> tasks done then please contact me privately.
>
> > On 6 Dec 2017, at 16:50, Philip Race  wrote:
> >
> > There needs to be a viable community that is not just Oracle to support
> you here ..
> > I think everyone has come to be dependent on Oracle to "be there".
> > But if there is a specific community need that Oracle doesn't see as
> essential, then the community should help out.
> >
> > -phil.
> >
> >> On 12/5/17, 9:27 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
> >> Well, that’s all fine but you didn’t address the issue of working with
> someone within Oracle to get these innovations done.
> >>
> >> Sure, I could just toil away by myself but clearly it would be better
> all around if there was someone with much more extensive knowledge of
> JavaFX and its internals who was accessible when required.
> >>
> >> I would assume that a member of the Oracle JavaFX team would be such a
> person. If not, then who?
> >>
> >>> On 6 Dec 2017, at 15:53, Philip Race  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I think looking at it as an Oracle-owned and controlled project maybe
> the first mistake here.
> >>> Yes it was closed source and then Oracle controlled, but not any more,
> OCA requirements aside.
> >>> It 

Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

[Mario Torre]

2017-12-06 9:40 GMT+01:00 John-Val Rose :
> Yes, I obviously need to know if anything I work on or design is going to
> be accepted or is even wanted by the community as a whole, and as early on
> in the process as possible.  Heck, if I had my way, JavaFX would be used to
> build everything from forms to FPS games and highly complex and performant
> 3D visualizations.  And don't say it can't be done in Java - it can.
> JavaMonkeyEngine can be used to create awesome games (for example).

If I understood correctly the change is big enough to need a JEP.
Generally, you need a JEP for new features, new API and big changes.
You don't need for bug fixes and internal refactoring. So, for
instance, adding a new port to the graphics need a JEP.

It's up to the project maintainer to say whether that should be a JEP
or not, though.

> Plus, I have never "done" a JEP but I believe it's quite a long and
> involved process (?)

Well, that doesn't mean you can avoid it ;)

I did work only with the two previous drafts of the JEP, but the
latest draft is a lot quicker (simply file a bug report basically).

The JEP is detailed here:

http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/1
http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~mr/jep/jep-2.0-02.html

The second link is the current version, the first link is for
reference since this is where the process should be detailed, but
hasn't been merged yet.

Cheers,
Mario
-- 
pgp key: http://subkeys.pgp.net/ PGP Key ID: 80F240CF
Fingerprint: BA39 9666 94EC 8B73 27FA  FC7C 4086 63E3 80F2 40CF

Java Champion - Blog: http://neugens.wordpress.com - Twitter: @neugens
Proud GNU Classpath developer: http://www.classpath.org/
OpenJDK: http://openjdk.java.net/projects/caciocavallo/

Please, support open standards:
http://endsoftpatents.org/

RE: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

[Markus KARG]

I understand your situation very well, as it is the same for me. What would be 
great would be some mentor at the OpenJFX team who helps to get external 
contributors at speed. Not only he could decide what needs a JEP or review it 
before filing, he also could help with coding standards, tooling and building, 
and so on. I think every open source project the size of OpenJDK should have 
such mentors. Unfortunately, least do.

-Markus

 

From: John-Val Rose [mailto:johnvalr...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Mittwoch, 6. Dezember 2017 09:41
To: Markus KARG
Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net Mailing
Subject: Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

 

Yes, I obviously need to know if anything I work on or design is going to be 
accepted or is even wanted by the community as a whole, and as early on in the 
process as possible.  Heck, if I had my way, JavaFX would be used to build 
everything from forms to FPS games and highly complex and performant 3D 
visualizations.  And don't say it can't be done in Java - it can.  
JavaMonkeyEngine can be used to create awesome games (for example).

 

Plus, I have never "done" a JEP but I believe it's quite a long and involved 
process (?)

 

So, I would appreciate some clarification on the best process and steps to take 
to go from ideas to released features.




​​

Graciously,

 

John-Val Rose

Chief Scientist/Architect

Rosethorn Technology

 

On 6 December 2017 at 19:33, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu> wrote:

Yes, but not everything needs a JEP always. Maybe what Phil has in mind is 
small enough to be accepted without. Somebody has to decide before filing the 
JEP.

-Markus



From: Mario Torre [mailto:neugens.limasoftw...@gmail.com]
Sent: Mittwoch, 6. Dezember 2017 09:11
To: Markus KARG

Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
Subject: Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)



I think Phil said that, the way to propose such changes is to file a Jep and 
discuss it here.



Cheers,

Mario



On Wed 6. Dec 2017 at 09:07, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu> wrote:

I think what John actually asked for is whom to send his design upfront at the 
JFX team to get an initial judgement whether it is worth programming it, or 
whether it bears such flaws that it makes not much sense to invest any more 
time. Whether or not that decision is done by an Oracle employee or not, he 
simply needs to know whom to sent his proposal for early review.

-Markus

-Original Message-
From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of 
Philip Race
Sent: Mittwoch, 6. Dezember 2017 06:50
To: John-Val Rose
Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
Subject: Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

There needs to be a viable community that is not just Oracle to support you 
here ..
I think everyone has come to be dependent on Oracle to "be there".
But if there is a specific community need that Oracle doesn't see as essential, 
then the community should help out.

-phil.

On 12/5/17, 9:27 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
> Well, that’s all fine but you didn’t address the issue of working with 
> someone within Oracle to get these innovations done.
>
> Sure, I could just toil away by myself but clearly it would be better all 
> around if there was someone with much more extensive knowledge of JavaFX and 
> its internals who was accessible when required.
>
> I would assume that a member of the Oracle JavaFX team would be such a 
> person. If not, then who?
>
>> On 6 Dec 2017, at 15:53, Philip Race<philip.r...@oracle.com>  wrote:
>>
>> I think looking at it as an Oracle-owned and controlled project maybe the 
>> first mistake here.
>> Yes it was closed source and then Oracle controlled, but not any more, OCA 
>> requirements aside.
>> It is not even a "java specification". It can be evolved at an API level 
>> without a JSR.
>> The JEP process is the main thing to be followed, although we also use CSRs 
>> too to track API.
>> Consider it that anyone who is a contributor owns (not the right word ?) a 
>> piece of it too.
>> So standing on the project is what matters. Not the company who pays you to 
>> work on it.
>>
>> -phil.
>>
>>> On 12/5/17, 8:21 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
>>> Phil et. al.,
>>>
>>> Whilst I’m not going to be quite as “passionate” as some on this issue 
>>> (although I do understand the frustration), I would like to point out again 
>>> that this is indeed a huge gap and it is critical that it is filled ASAP.
>>>
>>> Obviously a solution where every word in a text document is a Node would be 
>>> unworkable so it would need to be architected from the ground up.
>>>
>>> I would be happy to work on such as feature, just as I was happy to work on 
>>> implementing WebGL, but my 

Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

[Paul Ray Russell]

Hi John,

>>>Re: Significant improvements in scene graph rendering speed using modern
game-engine style structures and algorithms.

Agree,

Also, I haven't been feeling the enthusiasm either. It's a mood that's
permeating the user base. You just have to scout YouTube for JavaFX games,
to read the mood. It's all feeling a bit like the last throws of Swing did.

To my mind, JavaFX is the perfect 2D gaming platform, it just misses better
lighting.

I'd like to see the scene graph speed improved, and more work on the
lighting for games. I'm busy working on our game : kattrunonthetide.com (
https://www.facebook.com/KattGame/) : Javafx is proving to be a great
platform. If one "applies" azimuth lights to a flat canvas scene, (one with
no scene graph) the bump mapping seems automatic.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y0WHd5LiIWu1qSvRiHyPrPKBP2fp4gXL/view?usp=sharing

But, the effect is ill documented, and I think it would be great to have
more work in the this area.

Some way to access pixels at high speed would be brilliant too. I know
nothing of the Java shading language, JSL, and still think this would be a
great addition if exposed.

Currently something like LibGDX is a much better choice for games writing
than JavaFX. Eyes to OpenGL, but I still think JavaFX with all it's great
UI support (and FXGL library) should still be a good choice.

Best,
Paul


On 6 December 2017 at 08:36, <openjfx-dev-requ...@openjdk.java.net> wrote:

> Send openjfx-dev mailing list submissions to
> openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
>
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> than "Re: Contents of openjfx-dev digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes) (John-Val Rose)
>    2. RE: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes) (Markus KARG)
>3. Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes) (Mario Torre)
>4. RE: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes) (Markus KARG)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 17:16:07 +1100
> From: John-Val Rose <johnvalr...@gmail.com>
> To: Philip Race <philip.r...@oracle.com>
> Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
> Subject: Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)
> Message-ID: <2fa8027d-79b1-4339-8bca-6b5cb58d3...@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=utf-8
>
> Absolutely - there needs to be a viable community that is not just Oracle.
>
> So, is there one? If not, how do we build one?
>
> OK, so let me rephrase my earlier email:
>
> I am willing to work with *anyone* (within Oracle or not) on the features
> that the community craves, such as those I listed (and any others). Not
> just because ?many hands make light work? but because I don?t know
> everything (or even close) and I need the knowledge and skills of others to
> assist me. Not to mention that I have only 24 hours in a day like everyone
> else and, also like everyone else, some of that time has to be devoted to
> earning an income.
>
> So, if there?s anyone reading this who has the time, the skills, the
> commitment and the passion to work hard (in your own time) to get these
> tasks done then please contact me privately.
>
> > On 6 Dec 2017, at 16:50, Philip Race <philip.r...@oracle.com> wrote:
> >
> > There needs to be a viable community that is not just Oracle to support
> you here ..
> > I think everyone has come to be dependent on Oracle to "be there".
> > But if there is a specific community need that Oracle doesn't see as
> essential, then the community should help out.
> >
> > -phil.
> >
> >> On 12/5/17, 9:27 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
> >> Well, that?s all fine but you didn?t address the issue of working with
> someone within Oracle to get these innovations done.
> >>
> >> Sure, I could just toil away by myself but clearly it would be better
> all around if there was someone with much more extensive knowledge of
> JavaFX and its internals who was accessible when required.
> >>
> >> I would assume that a member of the Oracle JavaFX team would be such a
> person. If not, then who?
> >>
> >>> On 6 Dec 2017, at 15:53, Philip Race<philip.r...@oracle.com>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I think looking at it as an Oracle-owned and controlled project maybe
> t

Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

[John-Val Rose]

Yes, I obviously need to know if anything I work on or design is going to
be accepted or is even wanted by the community as a whole, and as early on
in the process as possible.  Heck, if I had my way, JavaFX would be used to
build everything from forms to FPS games and highly complex and performant
3D visualizations.  And don't say it can't be done in Java - it can.
JavaMonkeyEngine can be used to create awesome games (for example).

Plus, I have never "done" a JEP but I believe it's quite a long and
involved process (?)

So, I would appreciate some clarification on the best process and steps to
take to go from ideas to released features.

​​
Graciously,

John-Val Rose
Chief Scientist/Architect
Rosethorn Technology

On 6 December 2017 at 19:33, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu> wrote:

> Yes, but not everything needs a JEP always. Maybe what Phil has in mind is
> small enough to be accepted without. Somebody has to decide before filing
> the JEP.
>
> -Markus
>
>
>
> From: Mario Torre [mailto:neugens.limasoftw...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Mittwoch, 6. Dezember 2017 09:11
> To: Markus KARG
> Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
> Subject: Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)
>
>
>
> I think Phil said that, the way to propose such changes is to file a Jep
> and discuss it here.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mario
>
>
>
> On Wed 6. Dec 2017 at 09:07, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu> wrote:
>
> I think what John actually asked for is whom to send his design upfront at
> the JFX team to get an initial judgement whether it is worth programming
> it, or whether it bears such flaws that it makes not much sense to invest
> any more time. Whether or not that decision is done by an Oracle employee
> or not, he simply needs to know whom to sent his proposal for early review.
>
> -Markus
>
> -Original Message-
> From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On Behalf
> Of Philip Race
> Sent: Mittwoch, 6. Dezember 2017 06:50
> To: John-Val Rose
> Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
> Subject: Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)
>
> There needs to be a viable community that is not just Oracle to support
> you here ..
> I think everyone has come to be dependent on Oracle to "be there".
> But if there is a specific community need that Oracle doesn't see as
> essential, then the community should help out.
>
> -phil.
>
> On 12/5/17, 9:27 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
> > Well, that’s all fine but you didn’t address the issue of working with
> someone within Oracle to get these innovations done.
> >
> > Sure, I could just toil away by myself but clearly it would be better
> all around if there was someone with much more extensive knowledge of
> JavaFX and its internals who was accessible when required.
> >
> > I would assume that a member of the Oracle JavaFX team would be such a
> person. If not, then who?
> >
> >> On 6 Dec 2017, at 15:53, Philip Race<philip.r...@oracle.com>  wrote:
> >>
> >> I think looking at it as an Oracle-owned and controlled project maybe
> the first mistake here.
> >> Yes it was closed source and then Oracle controlled, but not any more,
> OCA requirements aside.
> >> It is not even a "java specification". It can be evolved at an API
> level without a JSR.
> >> The JEP process is the main thing to be followed, although we also use
> CSRs too to track API.
> >> Consider it that anyone who is a contributor owns (not the right word
> ?) a piece of it too.
> >> So standing on the project is what matters. Not the company who pays
> you to work on it.
> >>
> >> -phil.
> >>
> >>> On 12/5/17, 8:21 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
> >>> Phil et. al.,
> >>>
> >>> Whilst I’m not going to be quite as “passionate” as some on this issue
> (although I do understand the frustration), I would like to point out again
> that this is indeed a huge gap and it is critical that it is filled ASAP.
> >>>
> >>> Obviously a solution where every word in a text document is a Node
> would be unworkable so it would need to be architected from the ground up.
> >>>
> >>> I would be happy to work on such as feature, just as I was happy to
> work on implementing WebGL, but my hesitation is concern over the
> assistance and involvement from Oracle.
> >>>
> >>> If I am going to have to spend months working on something without any
> or only minimal involvement from Oracle, only to find at the end that
> Oracle either doesn’t like the design, implementation or something else
> then it is wasted time I’ll never

RE: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

[Markus KARG]

Yes, but not everything needs a JEP always. Maybe what Phil has in mind is 
small enough to be accepted without. Somebody has to decide before filing the 
JEP.

-Markus

 

From: Mario Torre [mailto:neugens.limasoftw...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Mittwoch, 6. Dezember 2017 09:11
To: Markus KARG
Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
Subject: Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

 

I think Phil said that, the way to propose such changes is to file a Jep and 
discuss it here.

 

Cheers,

Mario 

 

On Wed 6. Dec 2017 at 09:07, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu> wrote:

I think what John actually asked for is whom to send his design upfront at the 
JFX team to get an initial judgement whether it is worth programming it, or 
whether it bears such flaws that it makes not much sense to invest any more 
time. Whether or not that decision is done by an Oracle employee or not, he 
simply needs to know whom to sent his proposal for early review.

-Markus

-Original Message-
From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of 
Philip Race
Sent: Mittwoch, 6. Dezember 2017 06:50
To: John-Val Rose
Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
Subject: Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

There needs to be a viable community that is not just Oracle to support you 
here ..
I think everyone has come to be dependent on Oracle to "be there".
But if there is a specific community need that Oracle doesn't see as essential, 
then the community should help out.

-phil.

On 12/5/17, 9:27 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
> Well, that’s all fine but you didn’t address the issue of working with 
> someone within Oracle to get these innovations done.
>
> Sure, I could just toil away by myself but clearly it would be better all 
> around if there was someone with much more extensive knowledge of JavaFX and 
> its internals who was accessible when required.
>
> I would assume that a member of the Oracle JavaFX team would be such a 
> person. If not, then who?
>
>> On 6 Dec 2017, at 15:53, Philip Race<philip.r...@oracle.com>  wrote:
>>
>> I think looking at it as an Oracle-owned and controlled project maybe the 
>> first mistake here.
>> Yes it was closed source and then Oracle controlled, but not any more, OCA 
>> requirements aside.
>> It is not even a "java specification". It can be evolved at an API level 
>> without a JSR.
>> The JEP process is the main thing to be followed, although we also use CSRs 
>> too to track API.
>> Consider it that anyone who is a contributor owns (not the right word ?) a 
>> piece of it too.
>> So standing on the project is what matters. Not the company who pays you to 
>> work on it.
>>
>> -phil.
>>
>>> On 12/5/17, 8:21 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
>>> Phil et. al.,
>>>
>>> Whilst I’m not going to be quite as “passionate” as some on this issue 
>>> (although I do understand the frustration), I would like to point out again 
>>> that this is indeed a huge gap and it is critical that it is filled ASAP.
>>>
>>> Obviously a solution where every word in a text document is a Node would be 
>>> unworkable so it would need to be architected from the ground up.
>>>
>>> I would be happy to work on such as feature, just as I was happy to work on 
>>> implementing WebGL, but my hesitation is concern over the assistance and 
>>> involvement from Oracle.
>>>
>>> If I am going to have to spend months working on something without any or 
>>> only minimal involvement from Oracle, only to find at the end that Oracle 
>>> either doesn’t like the design, implementation or something else then it is 
>>> wasted time I’ll never get back.
>>>
>>> There are lots of other innovations too that I would like to see in JavaFX 
>>> but I just don’t “feel the enthusiasm” from Oracle.
>>>
>>> If there is someone on the JavaFX team who would be willing to work with me 
>>> (at least in some capacity), please have them contact me privately via 
>>> email.
>>>
>>> The innovations I could work on and contribute include:
>>>
>>> 1. WebGL support in WebView
>>> 2. Better text support including text documents&   rich text editors etc.
>>> 3. Significant improvements in scene graph rendering speed using
>>> modern game-engine style structures and algorithms
>>>
>>> JavaFX cannot survive without innovation and I am keen to see it happen and 
>>> contribute as much as possible.
>>>
>>> Graciously,
>>>
>>> John-Val Rose
>>> Rosethorn Technology
>>>
>>>> On 6 Dec 2017, at 11:36, jav...@use.start

Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

[Mario Torre]

I think Phil said that, the way to propose such changes is to file a Jep
and discuss it here.

Cheers,
Mario

On Wed 6. Dec 2017 at 09:07, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu> wrote:

> I think what John actually asked for is whom to send his design upfront at
> the JFX team to get an initial judgement whether it is worth programming
> it, or whether it bears such flaws that it makes not much sense to invest
> any more time. Whether or not that decision is done by an Oracle employee
> or not, he simply needs to know whom to sent his proposal for early review.
>
> -Markus
>
> -Original Message-
> From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On Behalf
> Of Philip Race
> Sent: Mittwoch, 6. Dezember 2017 06:50
> To: John-Val Rose
> Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
> Subject: Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)
>
> There needs to be a viable community that is not just Oracle to support
> you here ..
> I think everyone has come to be dependent on Oracle to "be there".
> But if there is a specific community need that Oracle doesn't see as
> essential, then the community should help out.
>
> -phil.
>
> On 12/5/17, 9:27 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
> > Well, that’s all fine but you didn’t address the issue of working with
> someone within Oracle to get these innovations done.
> >
> > Sure, I could just toil away by myself but clearly it would be better
> all around if there was someone with much more extensive knowledge of
> JavaFX and its internals who was accessible when required.
> >
> > I would assume that a member of the Oracle JavaFX team would be such a
> person. If not, then who?
> >
> >> On 6 Dec 2017, at 15:53, Philip Race<philip.r...@oracle.com>  wrote:
> >>
> >> I think looking at it as an Oracle-owned and controlled project maybe
> the first mistake here.
> >> Yes it was closed source and then Oracle controlled, but not any more,
> OCA requirements aside.
> >> It is not even a "java specification". It can be evolved at an API
> level without a JSR.
> >> The JEP process is the main thing to be followed, although we also use
> CSRs too to track API.
> >> Consider it that anyone who is a contributor owns (not the right word
> ?) a piece of it too.
> >> So standing on the project is what matters. Not the company who pays
> you to work on it.
> >>
> >> -phil.
> >>
> >>> On 12/5/17, 8:21 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
> >>> Phil et. al.,
> >>>
> >>> Whilst I’m not going to be quite as “passionate” as some on this issue
> (although I do understand the frustration), I would like to point out again
> that this is indeed a huge gap and it is critical that it is filled ASAP.
> >>>
> >>> Obviously a solution where every word in a text document is a Node
> would be unworkable so it would need to be architected from the ground up.
> >>>
> >>> I would be happy to work on such as feature, just as I was happy to
> work on implementing WebGL, but my hesitation is concern over the
> assistance and involvement from Oracle.
> >>>
> >>> If I am going to have to spend months working on something without any
> or only minimal involvement from Oracle, only to find at the end that
> Oracle either doesn’t like the design, implementation or something else
> then it is wasted time I’ll never get back.
> >>>
> >>> There are lots of other innovations too that I would like to see in
> JavaFX but I just don’t “feel the enthusiasm” from Oracle.
> >>>
> >>> If there is someone on the JavaFX team who would be willing to work
> with me (at least in some capacity), please have them contact me privately
> via email.
> >>>
> >>> The innovations I could work on and contribute include:
> >>>
> >>> 1. WebGL support in WebView
> >>> 2. Better text support including text documents&   rich text editors
> etc.
> >>> 3. Significant improvements in scene graph rendering speed using
> >>> modern game-engine style structures and algorithms
> >>>
> >>> JavaFX cannot survive without innovation and I am keen to see it
> happen and contribute as much as possible.
> >>>
> >>> Graciously,
> >>>
> >>> John-Val Rose
> >>> Rosethorn Technology
> >>>
> >>>> On 6 Dec 2017, at 11:36, jav...@use.startmail.com wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Sorry about all the typos previously.
> >>>>
> >>>> Question- why not use the code in awt ? I am not totally up on what's
> going on with the platforms' native rendering engines ( meaning, I have no
> idea whatsoever) or how they have changed, but golly it sure does still
> work pretty well.
> >>>>
> >>>>   At least it seems to me looking at awt that a smallish number of
> things are 1) well defined by the native platofrm and 2) would more or less
> translate directly to an Java API and 3) from those small number of
> building blocks, (Font and Glyph metrics and this kind of thing)   text
> line layout algorithms can be written by ordinary civilians along with all
> the other stuff that goes into a text editor.
> >>>>
> >>>> And yes, everything does look easy when someone else is going to do
> it.
> >>>>
> >>>>
>
>

RE: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

[Markus KARG]

I think what John actually asked for is whom to send his design upfront at the 
JFX team to get an initial judgement whether it is worth programming it, or 
whether it bears such flaws that it makes not much sense to invest any more 
time. Whether or not that decision is done by an Oracle employee or not, he 
simply needs to know whom to sent his proposal for early review.

-Markus

-Original Message-
From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of 
Philip Race
Sent: Mittwoch, 6. Dezember 2017 06:50
To: John-Val Rose
Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
Subject: Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

There needs to be a viable community that is not just Oracle to support you 
here ..
I think everyone has come to be dependent on Oracle to "be there".
But if there is a specific community need that Oracle doesn't see as essential, 
then the community should help out.

-phil.

On 12/5/17, 9:27 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
> Well, that’s all fine but you didn’t address the issue of working with 
> someone within Oracle to get these innovations done.
>
> Sure, I could just toil away by myself but clearly it would be better all 
> around if there was someone with much more extensive knowledge of JavaFX and 
> its internals who was accessible when required.
>
> I would assume that a member of the Oracle JavaFX team would be such a 
> person. If not, then who?
>
>> On 6 Dec 2017, at 15:53, Philip Race<philip.r...@oracle.com>  wrote:
>>
>> I think looking at it as an Oracle-owned and controlled project maybe the 
>> first mistake here.
>> Yes it was closed source and then Oracle controlled, but not any more, OCA 
>> requirements aside.
>> It is not even a "java specification". It can be evolved at an API level 
>> without a JSR.
>> The JEP process is the main thing to be followed, although we also use CSRs 
>> too to track API.
>> Consider it that anyone who is a contributor owns (not the right word ?) a 
>> piece of it too.
>> So standing on the project is what matters. Not the company who pays you to 
>> work on it.
>>
>> -phil.
>>
>>> On 12/5/17, 8:21 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
>>> Phil et. al.,
>>>
>>> Whilst I’m not going to be quite as “passionate” as some on this issue 
>>> (although I do understand the frustration), I would like to point out again 
>>> that this is indeed a huge gap and it is critical that it is filled ASAP.
>>>
>>> Obviously a solution where every word in a text document is a Node would be 
>>> unworkable so it would need to be architected from the ground up.
>>>
>>> I would be happy to work on such as feature, just as I was happy to work on 
>>> implementing WebGL, but my hesitation is concern over the assistance and 
>>> involvement from Oracle.
>>>
>>> If I am going to have to spend months working on something without any or 
>>> only minimal involvement from Oracle, only to find at the end that Oracle 
>>> either doesn’t like the design, implementation or something else then it is 
>>> wasted time I’ll never get back.
>>>
>>> There are lots of other innovations too that I would like to see in JavaFX 
>>> but I just don’t “feel the enthusiasm” from Oracle.
>>>
>>> If there is someone on the JavaFX team who would be willing to work with me 
>>> (at least in some capacity), please have them contact me privately via 
>>> email.
>>>
>>> The innovations I could work on and contribute include:
>>>
>>> 1. WebGL support in WebView
>>> 2. Better text support including text documents&   rich text editors etc.
>>> 3. Significant improvements in scene graph rendering speed using 
>>> modern game-engine style structures and algorithms
>>>
>>> JavaFX cannot survive without innovation and I am keen to see it happen and 
>>> contribute as much as possible.
>>>
>>> Graciously,
>>>
>>> John-Val Rose
>>> Rosethorn Technology
>>>
>>>> On 6 Dec 2017, at 11:36, jav...@use.startmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Sorry about all the typos previously.
>>>>
>>>> Question- why not use the code in awt ? I am not totally up on what's 
>>>> going on with the platforms' native rendering engines ( meaning, I have no 
>>>> idea whatsoever) or how they have changed, but golly it sure does still 
>>>> work pretty well.
>>>>
>>>>   At least it seems to me looking at awt that a smallish number of things 
>>>> are 1) well defined by the native platofrm and 2) would more or less 
>>>> translate directly to an Java API and 3) from those small number of 
>>>> building blocks, (Font and Glyph metrics and this kind of thing)   text 
>>>> line layout algorithms can be written by ordinary civilians along with all 
>>>> the other stuff that goes into a text editor.
>>>>
>>>> And yes, everything does look easy when someone else is going to do it.
>>>>
>>>>

Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

[John-Val Rose]

Absolutely - there needs to be a viable community that is not just Oracle.

So, is there one? If not, how do we build one?

OK, so let me rephrase my earlier email:

I am willing to work with *anyone* (within Oracle or not) on the features that 
the community craves, such as those I listed (and any others). Not just because 
“many hands make light work” but because I don’t know everything (or even 
close) and I need the knowledge and skills of others to assist me. Not to 
mention that I have only 24 hours in a day like everyone else and, also like 
everyone else, some of that time has to be devoted to earning an income.

So, if there’s anyone reading this who has the time, the skills, the commitment 
and the passion to work hard (in your own time) to get these tasks done then 
please contact me privately.

> On 6 Dec 2017, at 16:50, Philip Race  wrote:
> 
> There needs to be a viable community that is not just Oracle to support you 
> here ..
> I think everyone has come to be dependent on Oracle to "be there".
> But if there is a specific community need that Oracle doesn't see as 
> essential, then the community should help out.
> 
> -phil.
> 
>> On 12/5/17, 9:27 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
>> Well, that’s all fine but you didn’t address the issue of working with 
>> someone within Oracle to get these innovations done.
>> 
>> Sure, I could just toil away by myself but clearly it would be better all 
>> around if there was someone with much more extensive knowledge of JavaFX and 
>> its internals who was accessible when required.
>> 
>> I would assume that a member of the Oracle JavaFX team would be such a 
>> person. If not, then who?
>> 
>>> On 6 Dec 2017, at 15:53, Philip Race  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I think looking at it as an Oracle-owned and controlled project maybe the 
>>> first mistake here.
>>> Yes it was closed source and then Oracle controlled, but not any more, OCA 
>>> requirements aside.
>>> It is not even a "java specification". It can be evolved at an API level 
>>> without a JSR.
>>> The JEP process is the main thing to be followed, although we also use CSRs 
>>> too to track API.
>>> Consider it that anyone who is a contributor owns (not the right word ?) a 
>>> piece of it too.
>>> So standing on the project is what matters. Not the company who pays you to 
>>> work on it.
>>> 
>>> -phil.
>>> 
 On 12/5/17, 8:21 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
 Phil et. al.,
 
 Whilst I’m not going to be quite as “passionate” as some on this issue 
 (although I do understand the frustration), I would like to point out 
 again that this is indeed a huge gap and it is critical that it is filled 
 ASAP.
 
 Obviously a solution where every word in a text document is a Node would 
 be unworkable so it would need to be architected from the ground up.
 
 I would be happy to work on such as feature, just as I was happy to work 
 on implementing WebGL, but my hesitation is concern over the assistance 
 and involvement from Oracle.
 
 If I am going to have to spend months working on something without any or 
 only minimal involvement from Oracle, only to find at the end that Oracle 
 either doesn’t like the design, implementation or something else then it 
 is wasted time I’ll never get back.
 
 There are lots of other innovations too that I would like to see in JavaFX 
 but I just don’t “feel the enthusiasm” from Oracle.
 
 If there is someone on the JavaFX team who would be willing to work with 
 me (at least in some capacity), please have them contact me privately via 
 email.
 
 The innovations I could work on and contribute include:
 
 1. WebGL support in WebView
 2. Better text support including text documents&   rich text editors etc.
 3. Significant improvements in scene graph rendering speed using modern 
 game-engine style structures and algorithms
 
 JavaFX cannot survive without innovation and I am keen to see it happen 
 and contribute as much as possible.
 
 Graciously,
 
 John-Val Rose
 Rosethorn Technology
 
> On 6 Dec 2017, at 11:36, jav...@use.startmail.com wrote:
> 
> Sorry about all the typos previously.
> 
> Question- why not use the code in awt ? I am not totally up on what's 
> going on with the platforms' native rendering engines ( meaning, I have 
> no idea whatsoever) or how they have changed, but golly it sure does 
> still work pretty well.
> 
>  At least it seems to me looking at awt that a smallish number of things 
> are 1) well defined by the native platofrm and 2) would more or less 
> translate directly to an Java API and 3) from those small number of 
> building blocks, (Font and Glyph metrics and this kind of thing)   text 
> line layout algorithms can be written by ordinary civilians along with 
> all the other stuff that 

Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

[Philip Race]

There needs to be a viable community that is not just Oracle to support 
you here ..

I think everyone has come to be dependent on Oracle to "be there".
But if there is a specific community need that Oracle doesn't see as 
essential, then the community should help out.


-phil.

On 12/5/17, 9:27 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:

Well, that’s all fine but you didn’t address the issue of working with someone 
within Oracle to get these innovations done.

Sure, I could just toil away by myself but clearly it would be better all 
around if there was someone with much more extensive knowledge of JavaFX and 
its internals who was accessible when required.

I would assume that a member of the Oracle JavaFX team would be such a person. 
If not, then who?


On 6 Dec 2017, at 15:53, Philip Race  wrote:

I think looking at it as an Oracle-owned and controlled project maybe the first 
mistake here.
Yes it was closed source and then Oracle controlled, but not any more, OCA 
requirements aside.
It is not even a "java specification". It can be evolved at an API level 
without a JSR.
The JEP process is the main thing to be followed, although we also use CSRs too 
to track API.
Consider it that anyone who is a contributor owns (not the right word ?) a 
piece of it too.
So standing on the project is what matters. Not the company who pays you to 
work on it.

-phil.


On 12/5/17, 8:21 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
Phil et. al.,

Whilst I’m not going to be quite as “passionate” as some on this issue 
(although I do understand the frustration), I would like to point out again 
that this is indeed a huge gap and it is critical that it is filled ASAP.

Obviously a solution where every word in a text document is a Node would be 
unworkable so it would need to be architected from the ground up.

I would be happy to work on such as feature, just as I was happy to work on 
implementing WebGL, but my hesitation is concern over the assistance and 
involvement from Oracle.

If I am going to have to spend months working on something without any or only 
minimal involvement from Oracle, only to find at the end that Oracle either 
doesn’t like the design, implementation or something else then it is wasted 
time I’ll never get back.

There are lots of other innovations too that I would like to see in JavaFX but 
I just don’t “feel the enthusiasm” from Oracle.

If there is someone on the JavaFX team who would be willing to work with me (at 
least in some capacity), please have them contact me privately via email.

The innovations I could work on and contribute include:

1. WebGL support in WebView
2. Better text support including text documents&   rich text editors etc.
3. Significant improvements in scene graph rendering speed using modern 
game-engine style structures and algorithms

JavaFX cannot survive without innovation and I am keen to see it happen and 
contribute as much as possible.

Graciously,

John-Val Rose
Rosethorn Technology


On 6 Dec 2017, at 11:36, jav...@use.startmail.com wrote:

Sorry about all the typos previously.

Question- why not use the code in awt ? I am not totally up on what's going on 
with the platforms' native rendering engines ( meaning, I have no idea 
whatsoever) or how they have changed, but golly it sure does still work pretty 
well.

  At least it seems to me looking at awt that a smallish number of things are 
1) well defined by the native platofrm and 2) would more or less translate 
directly to an Java API and 3) from those small number of building blocks, 
(Font and Glyph metrics and this kind of thing)   text line layout algorithms 
can be written by ordinary civilians along with all the other stuff that goes 
into a text editor.

And yes, everything does look easy when someone else is going to do it.

Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

[John-Val Rose]

Well, that’s all fine but you didn’t address the issue of working with someone 
within Oracle to get these innovations done.

Sure, I could just toil away by myself but clearly it would be better all 
around if there was someone with much more extensive knowledge of JavaFX and 
its internals who was accessible when required.

I would assume that a member of the Oracle JavaFX team would be such a person. 
If not, then who?

> On 6 Dec 2017, at 15:53, Philip Race  wrote:
> 
> I think looking at it as an Oracle-owned and controlled project maybe the 
> first mistake here.
> Yes it was closed source and then Oracle controlled, but not any more, OCA 
> requirements aside.
> It is not even a "java specification". It can be evolved at an API level 
> without a JSR.
> The JEP process is the main thing to be followed, although we also use CSRs 
> too to track API.
> Consider it that anyone who is a contributor owns (not the right word ?) a 
> piece of it too.
> So standing on the project is what matters. Not the company who pays you to 
> work on it.
> 
> -phil.
> 
>> On 12/5/17, 8:21 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
>> Phil et. al.,
>> 
>> Whilst I’m not going to be quite as “passionate” as some on this issue 
>> (although I do understand the frustration), I would like to point out again 
>> that this is indeed a huge gap and it is critical that it is filled ASAP.
>> 
>> Obviously a solution where every word in a text document is a Node would be 
>> unworkable so it would need to be architected from the ground up.
>> 
>> I would be happy to work on such as feature, just as I was happy to work on 
>> implementing WebGL, but my hesitation is concern over the assistance and 
>> involvement from Oracle.
>> 
>> If I am going to have to spend months working on something without any or 
>> only minimal involvement from Oracle, only to find at the end that Oracle 
>> either doesn’t like the design, implementation or something else then it is 
>> wasted time I’ll never get back.
>> 
>> There are lots of other innovations too that I would like to see in JavaFX 
>> but I just don’t “feel the enthusiasm” from Oracle.
>> 
>> If there is someone on the JavaFX team who would be willing to work with me 
>> (at least in some capacity), please have them contact me privately via email.
>> 
>> The innovations I could work on and contribute include:
>> 
>> 1. WebGL support in WebView
>> 2. Better text support including text documents&  rich text editors etc.
>> 3. Significant improvements in scene graph rendering speed using modern 
>> game-engine style structures and algorithms
>> 
>> JavaFX cannot survive without innovation and I am keen to see it happen and 
>> contribute as much as possible.
>> 
>> Graciously,
>> 
>> John-Val Rose
>> Rosethorn Technology
>> 
>>> On 6 Dec 2017, at 11:36, jav...@use.startmail.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sorry about all the typos previously.
>>> 
>>> Question- why not use the code in awt ? I am not totally up on what's going 
>>> on with the platforms' native rendering engines ( meaning, I have no idea 
>>> whatsoever) or how they have changed, but golly it sure does still work 
>>> pretty well.
>>> 
>>>  At least it seems to me looking at awt that a smallish number of things 
>>> are 1) well defined by the native platofrm and 2) would more or less 
>>> translate directly to an Java API and 3) from those small number of 
>>> building blocks, (Font and Glyph metrics and this kind of thing)   text 
>>> line layout algorithms can be written by ordinary civilians along with all 
>>> the other stuff that goes into a text editor.
>>> 
>>> And yes, everything does look easy when someone else is going to do it.
>>> 
>>> 

Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

[Philip Race]

I think looking at it as an Oracle-owned and controlled project maybe 
the first mistake here.
Yes it was closed source and then Oracle controlled, but not any more, 
OCA requirements aside.
It is not even a "java specification". It can be evolved at an API level 
without a JSR.
The JEP process is the main thing to be followed, although we also use 
CSRs too to track API.
Consider it that anyone who is a contributor owns (not the right word ?) 
a piece of it too.
So standing on the project is what matters. Not the company who pays you 
to work on it.


-phil.

On 12/5/17, 8:21 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:

Phil et. al.,

Whilst I’m not going to be quite as “passionate” as some on this issue 
(although I do understand the frustration), I would like to point out again 
that this is indeed a huge gap and it is critical that it is filled ASAP.

Obviously a solution where every word in a text document is a Node would be 
unworkable so it would need to be architected from the ground up.

I would be happy to work on such as feature, just as I was happy to work on 
implementing WebGL, but my hesitation is concern over the assistance and 
involvement from Oracle.

If I am going to have to spend months working on something without any or only 
minimal involvement from Oracle, only to find at the end that Oracle either 
doesn’t like the design, implementation or something else then it is wasted 
time I’ll never get back.

There are lots of other innovations too that I would like to see in JavaFX but 
I just don’t “feel the enthusiasm” from Oracle.

If there is someone on the JavaFX team who would be willing to work with me (at 
least in some capacity), please have them contact me privately via email.

The innovations I could work on and contribute include:

1. WebGL support in WebView
2. Better text support including text documents&  rich text editors etc.
3. Significant improvements in scene graph rendering speed using modern 
game-engine style structures and algorithms

JavaFX cannot survive without innovation and I am keen to see it happen and 
contribute as much as possible.

Graciously,

John-Val Rose
Rosethorn Technology


On 6 Dec 2017, at 11:36, jav...@use.startmail.com wrote:

Sorry about all the typos previously.

Question- why not use the code in awt ? I am not totally up on what's going on 
with the platforms' native rendering engines ( meaning, I have no idea 
whatsoever) or how they have changed, but golly it sure does still work pretty 
well.

  At least it seems to me looking at awt that a smallish number of things are 
1) well defined by the native platofrm and 2) would more or less translate 
directly to an Java API and 3) from those small number of building blocks, 
(Font and Glyph metrics and this kind of thing)   text line layout algorithms 
can be written by ordinary civilians along with all the other stuff that goes 
into a text editor.

And yes, everything does look easy when someone else is going to do it.