[osol-discuss] Re: OpenSolaris - Why should I care? More questions.
1. What are the resource requirements for all this wonderful Solaris 10 software to work and perform reasonably well? Is it all available for x86 systems? Does it require a 64-bit dual or quad processor system, 4 GB of RAM and a 200 GB HDD? Or would it all work on a 1.8 GHz Intel Celeron single processor system with 512 MB of RAM? E.g. is the power of the zones technology fully available on such a low-powered desktop system? I would say Solaris x86 would run reasonably fast on an obsolete Pentium II or Pentium III. I run my instances of Solaris x86 mostly on AMD Athlon Thunderbirds, which are 1.2 and 1.4GHz, respectively. The 1.2 GHz is a desktop and runs pretty damn fast. The other machine is a server -- it only has 192MB (16 of which is reserved for the onboard video, I had no choice there) and 2 x 40GB ATA hard disks, and is even faster! Actually the server itself maybe uses 64MB or less -- I know I always have about 100+ MB physical RAM free, plus the load average almost never goes to 0.5, even under heavy loads (this machine is a primary and secondary DNS server for multiple domains across the world). Anyways, I'd say Athlon Thunderbird is pretty obsolete hardware. And Solaris flies on it. 2. And what about documentation? Are good tutorials available for Solaris newbies covering the unique aspects of Solaris 10, or do you have to be a long time, seasoned Solaris sys admin to catch on to these Solaris esoterica? I found the Sun Solaris 10 User's Guides and Sys Admin Guides to be pretty dense on these subjects. Boy are you in luck! Sun has about as comprehensive and as detailed documentation as you're going to get, and it's all free! See http://docs.sun.com/ on any imaginable subject concerning Solaris! 3. So far the discussion has only been about Solaris 10 or OpenSolaris. What about new distros such as Nexenta and BeleniX that retain only the Solaris kernel and core libraries? Pure Solaris is renowned for its stability; Nexenta might be interesting to the Linux crowd who are scared to really dive into real UNIX -- it might ease the transition. BeleniX and ShilliX are still to early in development to be usable for production. None of these distributions are usable for anything other than trying out Solaris for the first time in my opinion. It is unlikely that a Fortune 500 company would be putting any of these in any of their production environments. In addition, Nexenta will always lag behind Solaris Express / OpenSolaris because it has a different management paradigm and therefore will have to do porting of SUNW packages every time. While this may be acceptable for casual / desktop use, I believe it will be completely unacceptable for a production / enterprise environment. part of the reason presumably is the fact that Sun Q/A applies to every single aspect of the entire OS. Does this quality and stability necessarily carry over into a hybrid OS with Solaris kernel and GNU utilities, applications, etc.? Potentially such an OS could be incredibly buggy and unstable, completely negating the advantages of a very stable Solaris kernel, couldn't it? Can such a hybrid indeed be made as stable as Solaris itself? It cases like Nexenta the stability value proposition would only apply to the kernel and SUNW userland tools. Everything else would be at the same level that Debian or Ubuntu are. This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: OpenSolaris - Why should I care? More questions.
Robert Glueck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 3. So far the discussion has only been about Solaris 10 or OpenSolaris. What about new distros such as Nexenta and BeleniX that retain only the Solaris kernel and core libraries? Pure Solaris is renowned for its stability; part of the reason presumably is the fact that Sun Q/A applies to every single aspect of the entire OS. Does this quality and stability necessarily carry over into a hybrid OS with Solaris kernel and GNU utilities, applications, etc.? Potentially such an OS could be incredibly buggy and unstable, completely negating the advantages of a very stable Solaris kernel, couldn't it? Can such a hybrid indeed be made as stable as Solaris itself? If the GNU tools do not replace the Solaris tools, this would be no problem ;-) Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED](work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: OpenSolaris - Why should I care? More questions.
1. What are the resource requirements for all this wonderful Solaris 10 software to work and perform reasonably well? Is it all available for x86 systems? Does it require a 64-bit dual or quad processor system, 4 GB of RAM and a 200 GB HDD? Or would it all work on a 1.8 GHz Intel Celeron single processor system with 512 MB of RAM? E.g. is the power of the zones technology fully available on such a low-powered desktop system? Yes. It's all fully available on low powered systems. (Even a VIA C3 CPU with 512 MB of ram works just fine, even as Sun RAY server; boot Solaris from flash too, if that's your thing) 2. And what about documentation? Are good tutorials available for Solaris newbies covering the unique aspects of Solaris 10, or do you have to be a long time, seasoned Solaris sys admin to catch on to these Solaris esoterica? I found the Sun Solaris 10 User's Guides and Sys Admin Guides to be pretty dense on these subjects. Much more accessible information can be found on blogs.sun.com; many engineers write accessible how-tos about the stuff they themselves build. 3. So far the discussion has only been about Solaris 10 or OpenSolaris. What about new distros such as Nexenta and BeleniX that retain only the Solaris kernel and core libraries? Pure Solaris is renowned for its stability; part of the reason presumably is the fact that Sun Q/A applies to every single aspect of the entire OS. Does this quality and stability necessarily carry over into a hybrid OS with Solaris kernel and GNU utilities, applications, etc.? Potentially such an OS could be incredibly buggy and unstable, completely negating the advantages of a very stable Solaris kernel, couldn't it? Can such a hybrid indeed be made as stable as Solaris itself? The GNU utilities carry both a stability and compatibility risk. Nothing in Solaris proper can fix that. Casper ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: OpenSolaris - Why should I care? More questions.
On Sun, 2005-11-27 at 11:11 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 3. So far the discussion has only been about Solaris 10 or OpenSolaris. What about new distros such as Nexenta and BeleniX that retain only the Solaris kernel and core libraries? Pure Solaris is renowned for its stability; part of the reason presumably is the fact that Sun Q/A applies to every single aspect of the entire OS. Does this quality and stability necessarily carry over into a hybrid OS with Solaris kernel and GNU utilities, applications, etc.? Potentially such an OS could be incredibly buggy and unstable, completely negating the advantages of a very stable Solaris kernel, couldn't it? Can such a hybrid indeed be made as stable as Solaris itself? The GNU utilities carry both a stability and compatibility risk. Nothing in Solaris proper can fix that. This statement true for any software in general, unless development is pretty much dead. :-) Solaris 8,9,10,11 are different, and therefore carry the same risk for end user's apps. Talking about Nexenta and Others: once distro reaches major release, i will be stabilized(i.e. no major changes) and supported for a longer periods of time. And in fact, GNU utilities rock stable and pretty compatible across the versions and platforms. So, I woudn't buy your statement.. Erast ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: OpenSolaris - Why should I care? More questions.
On Nov 27, 2005, at 11:11 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. What are the resource requirements for all this wonderful Solaris 10 software to work and perform reasonably well? Is it all available for x86 systems? Does it require a 64-bit dual or quad processor system, 4 GB of RAM and a 200 GB HDD? Or would it all work on a 1.8 GHz Intel Celeron single processor system with 512 MB of RAM? E.g. is the power of the zones technology fully available on such a low-powered desktop system? Yes. It's all fully available on low powered systems. (Even a VIA C3 CPU with 512 MB of ram works just fine, even as Sun RAY server; boot Solaris from flash too, if that's your thing) Neat. Does it work on the PLE133 chipset? 2. And what about documentation? Are good tutorials available for Solaris newbies covering the unique aspects of Solaris 10, or do you have to be a long time, seasoned Solaris sys admin to catch on to these Solaris esoterica? I found the Sun Solaris 10 User's Guides and Sys Admin Guides to be pretty dense on these subjects. Much more accessible information can be found on blogs.sun.com; many engineers write accessible how-tos about the stuff they themselves build. IF you can find what you are looking for. It's hopeless to find the things you are looking for and the search facility doesn't help much. Example: there was mentioned an easy guide to live upgrade at someone's blog in this maillist, and I have accidently deleted that particular mail. I tried finding it via the search engine at Sun's blogsite, but gave up after checking at least 20 different blog entries (out of 296). How am I supposed to find what I'm looking for??? Kaiser Jasse -- Authorized Stealth Oracle The axioms of wisdom: 1. You can't outstubborn a cat 2. You can't conquer the universe without the knowledge of FORTRAN 3. In the Unix realm, 10% of work fixes 90% of the problems ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: OpenSolaris - Why should I care? More questions.
The GNU utilities carry both a stability and compatibility risk. Nothing in Solaris proper can fix that. This statement true for any software in general, unless development is pretty much dead. :-) Perhaps I should have quantified that: when used as default in a Solaris environment.. The GNU utilities are not compatible with their Solaris equavalents and in some cases violate standards, best practices or have bugs which their authors refuse to fix. Solaris 8,9,10,11 are different, and therefore carry the same risk for end user's apps. No, they do not, certainly not to the same extend as OpenSolaris + GNU utilities does when compared to standard Solaris. Talking about Nexenta and Others: once distro reaches major release, i will be stabilized(i.e. no major changes) and supported for a longer periods of time. And in fact, GNU utilities rock stable and pretty compatible across the versions and platforms. So, I woudn't buy your statement.. Except for GNU find and GNU tar which are buggy and are known to be buggy to the point that we can only assume that their maintainers have no interest in fixing them. Casper ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: OpenSolaris - Why should I care? More questions.
Erast Benson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And in fact, GNU utilities rock stable and pretty compatible across the versions and platforms. So, I woudn't buy your statement.. Internal staibility isn't worh anything as long as programs like e.g. GNU tar exist that cause major compatibility issues because they did ignore standards until very recently. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED](work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: OpenSolaris - Why should I care? More questions.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And in fact, GNU utilities rock stable and pretty compatible across the versions and platforms. So, I woudn't buy your statement.. Except for GNU find and GNU tar which are buggy and are known to be buggy to the point that we can only assume that their maintainers have no interest in fixing them. Add GNU rm it includes an option that allows you to unlink non-empty directories as root. This is a feature that POSIX did put with care into a separate utility called unlink. So GNU rm includes an unneeded security risk if you make a typo. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED](work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: OpenSolaris - Why should I care? More questions.
Yes. It's all fully available on low powered systems. (Even a VIA C3 CPU with 512 MB of ram works just fine, even as Sun RAY server; boot Solaris from flash too, if that's your thing) Neat. Does it work on the PLE133 chipset? I think I actually have an old ASUS PC with a similar chipset which works fine (CUV4X). I don't see any reason why it would not work. The board I have is a CLE266, though (USB, audio, integrated graphics are all supported but the latter better in Xorg 6.9 which will be in build 28, I think; build 28 will be later because of thanks giving. IF you can find what you are looking for. It's hopeless to find the things you are looking for and the search facility doesn't help much. Unfortunately, that is often the case. Example: there was mentioned an easy guide to live upgrade at someone's blog in this maillist, and I have accidently deleted that particular mail. I tried finding it via the search engine at Sun's blogsite, but gave up after checking at least 20 different blog entries (out of 296). How am I supposed to find what I'm looking for??? Well, if you can't find it you can always ask. Casper ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: OpenSolaris - Why should I care? More questions.
On 11/27/05, Joerg Schilling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Add GNU rm it includes an option that allows you to unlink non-empty directories as root. This is a feature that POSIX did put with care into a separate utility called unlink. So GNU rm includes an unneeded security risk if you make a typo. Why would someone want to unlink a non-empty directory? -- Eric Enright ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: OpenSolaris - Why should I care? More questions.
Eric Enright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/27/05, Joerg Schilling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Add GNU rm it includes an option that allows you to unlink non-empty directories as root. This is a feature that POSIX did put with care into a separate utility called unlink. So GNU rm includes an unneeded security risk if you make a typo. Why would someone want to unlink a non-empty directory? One reason may be to remove a hard link to another existing directory. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED](work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: OpenSolaris - Why should I care? More questions.
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005, Erast Benson wrote: Solaris 8,9,10,11 are different, and therefore carry the same risk for end user's apps. You're forgetting a rather important detail: Sun places a big emphasis on backwards compatibility, so migrating to newer versions of Solaris carries much less risk than migrating to a new version of Linux. Linus has specifically stated that not only is backwards compatibilty not a requirement for him, but that he (and the other Linux developers) will deliberately break compatibility with previous releases to discourage binary-only software. Because of this policy, how long do you think it will be before companies like Nvidia take a look at their Linux vs Solaris maintenance costs, and decide to srop support for the former as a cost saving measure? -- Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA, OpenSolaris CAB member President, Rite Online Inc. Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638 URL: http://www.rite-group.com/rich ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: OpenSolaris - Why should I care? More questions.
...and Solaris has had multi-threaded applications running for years. If it is not fast enough, add more CPUs! Solaris scales and by respecting APIs (thanks for mentioning that Rich) developers save time ...as time goes by. RB :-) On Nov 27, 2005, at 1:10 PM, Rich Teer wrote: On Sun, 27 Nov 2005, Erast Benson wrote: Solaris 8,9,10,11 are different, and therefore carry the same risk for end user's apps. You're forgetting a rather important detail: Sun places a big emphasis on backwards compatibility, so migrating to newer versions of Solaris carries much less risk than migrating to a new version of Linux. Linus has specifically stated that not only is backwards compatibilty not a requirement for him, but that he (and the other Linux developers) will deliberately break compatibility with previous releases to discourage binary-only software. Because of this policy, how long do you think it will be before companies like Nvidia take a look at their Linux vs Solaris maintenance costs, and decide to srop support for the former as a cost saving measure? -- Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA, OpenSolaris CAB member President, Rite Online Inc. Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638 URL: http://www.rite-group.com/rich ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: OpenSolaris - Why should I care? More questions.
On Sun, 2005-11-27 at 12:44 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The GNU utilities carry both a stability and compatibility risk. Nothing in Solaris proper can fix that. This statement true for any software in general, unless development is pretty much dead. :-) Perhaps I should have quantified that: when used as default in a Solaris environment.. The GNU utilities are not compatible with their Solaris equavalent and in some cases violate standards, best practices or have bugs which their authors refuse to fix. don't you agree that any software has some bugs anyways? I'd say this is part of software industry. violate standards sounds very funny to me. Microsoft violates standards all over, still everybody using it. But my point is: GNU tools are slightly incompatible with SUN tools. But because GNU tools has x1000 times wider usage, I think, this is SUN tools which are violates GNU standards. :-) Guys, this GNU vs. SUN tools discussion leading to nowhere. Decent OpenSolaris-based distro must support both. One way or another. Erast ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: OpenSolaris - Why should I care? More questions.
On Sun, 2005-11-27 at 11:10 -0800, Rich Teer wrote: On Sun, 27 Nov 2005, Erast Benson wrote: Solaris 8,9,10,11 are different, and therefore carry the same risk for end user's apps. You're forgetting a rather important detail: Sun places a big emphasis on backwards compatibility, so migrating to newer versions of Solaris carries much less risk than migrating to a new version of Linux. Linus has specifically stated that not only is backwards compatibilty not a requirement for him, but that he (and the other Linux developers) will deliberately break compatibility with previous releases to discourage binary-only software. Because of this policy, how long do you think it will be before companies like Nvidia take a look at their Linux vs Solaris maintenance costs, and decide to srop support for the former as a cost saving measure? Hey, I do not disagree. :-) This is the reason why we started Nexenta OS development after all. And btw, Nexenta OS is as stable at its core as Solaris. Nexenta OS as compatible (core userland and kernel) with Solaris as SchiliX. Moreover, we are working on the solution which will allow users to switch personalities dynamically. So, if someone wants pure Solaris-like behavior, it is going to be very easy possible. Erast ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
[osol-discuss] Re: OpenSolaris - Why should I care? More questions.
My thanks to everyone for their replies - this has been an instructive discussion. More questions: 1. What are the resource requirements for all this wonderful Solaris 10 software to work and perform reasonably well? Is it all available for x86 systems? Does it require a 64-bit dual or quad processor system, 4 GB of RAM and a 200 GB HDD? Or would it all work on a 1.8 GHz Intel Celeron single processor system with 512 MB of RAM? E.g. is the power of the zones technology fully available on such a low-powered desktop system? 2. And what about documentation? Are good tutorials available for Solaris newbies covering the unique aspects of Solaris 10, or do you have to be a long time, seasoned Solaris sys admin to catch on to these Solaris esoterica? I found the Sun Solaris 10 User's Guides and Sys Admin Guides to be pretty dense on these subjects. 3. So far the discussion has only been about Solaris 10 or OpenSolaris. What about new distros such as Nexenta and BeleniX that retain only the Solaris kernel and core libraries? Pure Solaris is renowned for its stability; part of the reason presumably is the fact that Sun Q/A applies to every single aspect of the entire OS. Does this quality and stability necessarily carry over into a hybrid OS with Solaris kernel and GNU utilities, applications, etc.? Potentially such an OS could be incredibly buggy and unstable, completely negating the advantages of a very stable Solaris kernel, couldn't it? Can such a hybrid indeed be made as stable as Solaris itself? Robert ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: OpenSolaris - Why should I care? More questions.
On 11/26/05, Robert Glueck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My thanks to everyone for their replies - this has been an instructive discussion. More questions: 1. What are the resource requirements for all this wonderful Solaris 10 software to work and perform reasonably well? Is it all available for x86 systems? Does it require a 64-bit dual or quad processor system, 4 GB of RAM and a 200 GB HDD? Or would it all work on a 1.8 GHz Intel Celeron single processor system with 512 MB of RAM? E.g. is the power of the zones technology fully available on such a low-powered desktop system? Solaris Express ( with new grub based boot) requires 256MB of ram, i have ran it on systems as old as a p2-450 its still usuable though gnome does add its own requiements. The most important part is to check that nics and sound drivers are availible. That information can be found at http://www.sun.com/bigadmin/hcl A full install of Solaris requires about 7GB of disk space. 3rd party and most freeware software will need more. 2. And what about documentation? Are good tutorials available for Solaris newbies covering the unique aspects of Solaris 10, or do you have to be a long time, seasoned Solaris sys admin to catch on to these Solaris esoterica? I found the Sun Solaris 10 User's Guides and Sys Admin Guides to be pretty dense on these subjects. http://docs.sun.com is the official sun doc's site my blog has lots of good links in the quick solaris links section http://uadmin.blogspot.com/2005/03/solaris-links.html you can also join #opensolaris on freenode.net to ask questions interactively. 3. So far the discussion has only been about Solaris 10 or OpenSolaris. What about new distros such as Nexenta and BeleniX that retain only the Solaris kernel and core libraries? Pure Solaris is renowned for its stability; part of the reason presumably is the fact that Sun Q/A applies to every single aspect of the entire OS. Does this quality and stability necessarily carry over into a hybrid OS with Solaris kernel and GNU utilities, applications, etc.? Potentially such an OS could be incredibly buggy and unstable, completely negating the advantages of a very stable Solaris kernel, couldn't it? Can such a hybrid indeed be made as stable as Solaris itself? each will have there own chareristics... while they all have the same kernel and base tools. But they will each have to deal there own security problems outside of the kernel and combined packages. Check each site for more details on that. James Dickens uadmin.blogspot.com Robert ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: OpenSolaris - Why should I care? More questions.
James Dickens wrote: A full install of Solaris requires about 7GB of disk space. 3rd party and most freeware software will need more. About half of that... df -kl Filesystemkbytesused avail capacity Mounted on /dev/dsk/c0d0s3 8258469 3080187 509569838%/ Ian ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Re: OpenSolaris - Why should I care? More questions.
Robert Glueck wrote: Most of the contributors to this thread, I believe, have been talking about Solaris 10. How much of the full functionality of Solaris 10 is presently available in OpenSolaris? And whatever is available, is it only available as source? Is there a full-fledged free version of Solaris for x86 available at present that can be installed, as binaries, from CD or DVD media? You should be asking the question the other way round, how much of the full OpenSolaris functionality is available in Solaris 10? Try the current community build linked form the opensolaris site. There is a lot more x86 support in recent releases than there is in Solaris 10. Ian ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Fwd: [osol-discuss] Re: OpenSolaris - Why should I care? More questions.
oops meant this to go to the full list -- Forwarded message -- From: James Dickens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Nov 26, 2005 9:08 PM Subject: Re: [osol-discuss] Re: OpenSolaris - Why should I care? More questions. To: Robert Glueck [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 11/26/05, Robert Glueck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Most of the contributors to this thread, I believe, have been talking about Solaris 10. How much of the full functionality of Solaris 10 is presently available in OpenSolaris? And whatever is available, is it only available as source? Is there a full-fledged free version of Solaris for x86 available at present that can be installed, as binaries, from CD or DVD media? Solaris 10 and Solaris Express and Solaris Express Community build are availible free for both SPARC, x86/x64 If you want the source... opensolaris is what you want. James Dickens uadmin.blogspot.com Robert ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
