Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 07/14/2017 06:01 PM, Samuel Cassiba wrote: Chiming in from the believed-to-be-dead Chef project, I work on it because it scratches my itch. I served as PTL because it did and does scratch my itch. Working on it in any capacity that moves things forward continues to scratch that itch. We hav

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On Jul 14, 2017, at 14:10, Ed Leafe wrote: > > On Jul 14, 2017, at 2:17 PM, Zane Bitter wrote: > >> * The pool of OpenStack developers is a fixed resource, and if we make it >> clear that some projects are unwelcome then their developers will be >> reassigned to 'core' projects in a completel

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 15/07/17 03:45, Ed Leafe wrote: On Jul 13, 2017, at 10:32 PM, Fei Long Wang wrote: I agree with Zane for most of the parts. But one thing I don't really understand is, why OpenStack community is still confusing at the IaaS, PaaS and SaaS, does the classification really mater at nowadays? Do

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On Jul 14, 2017, at 2:17 PM, Zane Bitter wrote: > * The pool of OpenStack developers is a fixed resource, and if we make it > clear that some projects are unwelcome then their developers will be > reassigned to 'core' projects in a completely zero-sum process. (Nnope.) Yeah, I’ve heard thi

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 13/07/17 23:32, Fei Long Wang wrote: I agree with Zane for most of the parts. But one thing I don't really understand is, why OpenStack community is still confusing at the IaaS, PaaS and SaaS, does the classification really mater at nowadays? Do we really need a label/tag for OpenStack to limi

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On Jul 13, 2017, at 10:32 PM, Fei Long Wang wrote: > I agree with Zane for most of the parts. But one thing I don't really > understand is, why OpenStack community is still confusing at the IaaS, > PaaS and SaaS, does the classification really mater at nowadays? Do we > really need a label/tag fo

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

I agree with Zane for most of the parts. But one thing I don't really understand is, why OpenStack community is still confusing at the IaaS, PaaS and SaaS, does the classification really mater at nowadays? Do we really need a label/tag for OpenStack to limit it as an IaaS, PaaS or SaaS? I never see

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 2017-07-13 13:03:26 -0400 (-0400), Zane Bitter wrote: [...] > This is pretty much the same argument as I would make for DNSaaS. > Without it you're developing your own orchestration and/or > manually updating stuff every time you make a change in your > infrastructure, which pretty much negates

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 29/06/17 10:55, Monty Taylor wrote: (Incidentally, I think it's unworkable to have an IaaS without DNS. Other people have told me that having an IaaS without LBaaS or a message queuing service is unworkable, while I neither need nor want either of those things from my IaaS - they seem like P

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 28/06/17 16:50 +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote: Removing the root cause would be a more radical move: stop offering hosting to non-OpenStack projects on OpenStack infrastructure altogether. We originally did that for a reason, though. The benefits of offering that service are: 1- it lets us set u

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 28/06/17 16:50 -0500, Monty Taylor wrote: On 06/28/2017 09:50 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: Removing the root cause would be a more radical move: stop offering hosting to non-OpenStack projects on OpenStack infrastructure altogether. We originally did that for a reason, though. The benefits of of

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 29/06/17 10:33 -0500, Monty Taylor wrote: On 06/29/2017 10:00 AM, Jimmy McArthur wrote: Thierry Carrez June 29, 2017 at 9:54 AM Unfortunately, those pages just exist -- those hundreds of projects projects might be inactive, they still have git repositories a

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 28.06.2017 23:50, Monty Taylor wrote: > On 06/28/2017 09:50 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: >> Hi everyone, >> >> Two weeks ago, as a result of a discussion at the Board+TC+UC workgroup >> working on "better communicating what is openstack", I started a >> thread[1] about moving away from big tent ter

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 2017-06-30 11:31:01 +1000 (+1000), Joshua Hesketh wrote: [...] > has anybody looked at how difficult it would be to actually to > fix gerrit, There was an abandoned attempt to implement it in core: https://gerrit-review.googlesource.com/q/project:gerrit+topic:rename-project And there's still

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

Fox, Kevin M wrote: > [...] > So whats really unclear to end users is that when they talk about a piece of > "openstack" they may be talking about a great many things: > 1. is it managed under the 4 opens > 2. is it in github.com/openstack. > 3. is it under openstack governance. > 4. is it an 'ope

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

Agree. Regards -steve On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 7:55 AM, Monty Taylor wrote: > On 06/28/2017 11:27 PM, Steven Dake wrote: > > >> >> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Monty Taylor > > wrote: >> >> On 06/28/2017 09:50 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: >> >> Hi everyo

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: > On 2017-06-29 18:58:09 +1000 (+1000), Joshua Hesketh wrote: > > So I apologise if this has already been suggested/discussed (the > > long threads are difficult to keep up with), but has it been > > considered to go back to using a stackfor

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 2017-06-29 19:25:09 + (+), Tim Bell wrote: [...] > Can an ‘official’ project be deprecated? The economics say yes. > The consumer confidence impact would be substantial. [...] Does https://review.openstack.org/475721 count? What about https://review.openstack.org/452086 or, going back a

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 29/06/17 10:18, Jeremy Stanley wrote: Gerrit's design assumes project names (including any prefixed namespace) never change. This means project renames in Gerrit are painful and disruptive (service outage for everyone, Git remote changes for anyone working on that repo, risk of breaking things

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

y from the maturity of the software and the level of integration with other openstack software issue too. :/ Thanks, Kevin From: Tim Bell [tim.b...@cern.ch] Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 12:25 PM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage q

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

> On 29 Jun 2017, at 17:35, Chris Friesen wrote: > > On 06/29/2017 09:23 AM, Monty Taylor wrote: > >> We are already WELL past where we can solve the problem you are describing. >> Pandora's box has been opened - we have defined ourselves as an Open >> community. >> Our only requirement to be

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 2017-06-29 08:49:19 -0500 (-0500), Jimmy McArthur wrote: [...] > If there is specifically confusion around Google searches, I'd > suggest as a first step to spend some time working on redirects > for dead projects and very clearly updating documentation. For all > of Google's magic, there are so

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 2017-06-29 17:33, Monty Taylor wrote: > On 06/29/2017 10:00 AM, Jimmy McArthur wrote: >> >> >>> Thierry Carrez >>> June 29, 2017 at 9:54 AM >>> >>> Unfortunately, those pages just exist -- those hundreds of projects >>> projects might be inactive, they still have g

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

Excerpts from Chris Friesen's message of 2017-06-29 09:35:01 -0600: > On 06/29/2017 09:23 AM, Monty Taylor wrote: > > > We are already WELL past where we can solve the problem you are describing. > > Pandora's box has been opened - we have defined ourselves as an Open > > community. > > Our only

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 06/29/2017 09:23 AM, Monty Taylor wrote: We are already WELL past where we can solve the problem you are describing. Pandora's box has been opened - we have defined ourselves as an Open community. Our only requirement to be official is that you behave as one of us. There is nothing stopping t

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 06/29/2017 10:00 AM, Jimmy McArthur wrote: Thierry Carrez June 29, 2017 at 9:54 AM Unfortunately, those pages just exist -- those hundreds of projects projects might be inactive, they still have git repositories and wiki pages. We could more actively clean th

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 06/29/2017 03:00 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: Monty Taylor wrote: On 06/28/2017 09:50 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: [...] Removing the root cause would be a more radical move: stop offering hosting to non-OpenStack projects on OpenStack infrastructure altogether. We originally did that for a reason

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

Monty Taylor wrote: > I also continue to challenge the assertion. There are dead projects in > there for sure- but there are a LOT of non-dead live projects. It's not > like we have 6 live and 6 dead projects. The overwhelming majority of > the projects are not dead. Early results on my analysis s

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

Thierry Carrez June 29, 2017 at 9:54 AM Unfortunately, those pages just exist -- those hundreds of projects projects might be inactive, they still have git repositories and wiki pages. We could more actively clean them up (and then yes, adjusting the correspondin

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 06/28/2017 11:27 PM, Steven Dake wrote: On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Monty Taylor > wrote: On 06/28/2017 09:50 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: Hi everyone, Two weeks ago, as a result of a discussion at the Board+TC+UC workgroup

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

Jimmy McArthur wrote: > Thierry Carrez wrote: >> The confusion I'm talking about is not the passive-aggressive from >> people involved in openstack. It's from our prospective new users, who >> have no idea about our governance, making random searches on Google. >> It's from people getting hit by ma

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

Anne Gentle June 29, 2017 at 9:17 AM On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 8:49 AM, Jimmy McArthur wrote: Thierry Carrez wrote: The confusion I'm talking about is not the passive-aggressive from people involved in openstack. It's from our prospective new users, who h

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 06/29/2017 02:35 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: Sean McGinnis wrote: The central issue being discussed here is an issue of external perception. It's hard for newcomers to the OpenStack world to see what is a part of OpenStack and what's not. If you google "openstack machine learning", the first h

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 2017-06-29 18:58:09 +1000 (+1000), Joshua Hesketh wrote: > So I apologise if this has already been suggested/discussed (the > long threads are difficult to keep up with), but has it been > considered to go back to using a stackforge namespace? [...] Back in the bad ol' days when we had a separa

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 8:49 AM, Jimmy McArthur wrote: > > > Thierry Carrez wrote: >> >> The confusion I'm talking about is not the passive-aggressive from >> people involved in openstack. It's from our prospective new users, who >> have no idea about our governance, making random searches on Goog

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

Thierry Carrez wrote: The confusion I'm talking about is not the passive-aggressive from people involved in openstack. It's from our prospective new users, who have no idea about our governance, making random searches on Google. It's from people getting hit by marketing message from projects cl

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

Howdy, So I apologise if this has already been suggested/discussed (the long threads are difficult to keep up with), but has it been considered to go back to using a stackforge namespace? It seems to me that the role of stackforge to provide a proving ground or place for aligned projects/repos wa

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

James E. Blair wrote: > Thierry Carrez writes: > >> Removing the root cause would be a more radical move: stop offering >> hosting to non-OpenStack projects on OpenStack infrastructure >> altogether. We originally did that for a reason, though. The benefits of >> offering that service are: >> >>

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

Monty Taylor wrote: > On 06/28/2017 09:50 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: >> [...] Removing the root cause would be a more radical move: stop offering >> hosting to non-OpenStack projects on OpenStack infrastructure >> altogether. We originally did that for a reason, though. The benefits of >> offering t

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

Sean McGinnis wrote: >> >> The central issue being discussed here is an issue of external >> perception. It's hard for newcomers to the OpenStack world to see what >> is a part of OpenStack and what's not. If you google "openstack machine >> learning", the first hits are Cognitive and Meteos, and i

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Monty Taylor wrote: > On 06/28/2017 09:50 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> >> Two weeks ago, as a result of a discussion at the Board+TC+UC workgroup >> working on "better communicating what is openstack", I started a >> thread[1] about moving away f

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

> > The central issue being discussed here is an issue of external > perception. It's hard for newcomers to the OpenStack world to see what > is a part of OpenStack and what's not. If you google "openstack machine > learning", the first hits are Cognitive and Meteos, and it's impossible > to tell

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Monty Taylor wrote: > Such people are under the misguided impression that kicking cloudkitty out > of OpenStack will somehow cause Nova features to land quicker. I can't even > begin to express all of the ways in which it's wrong. So much this. I wonder where this

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

Hi ! I thought my perspective might be valuable as the author of a project that would likely end up being slashed: ARA [1]. In a nutshell, ARA provides easy and seamless Ansible reporting on playbook runs. It has nothing to do with OpenStack, to be honest: it doesn't require OpenStack to run, it

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

Thierry Carrez writes: > Removing the root cause would be a more radical move: stop offering > hosting to non-OpenStack projects on OpenStack infrastructure > altogether. We originally did that for a reason, though. The benefits of > offering that service are: > > 1- it lets us set up code reposi

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 06/28/2017 09:50 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: Hi everyone, Two weeks ago, as a result of a discussion at the Board+TC+UC workgroup working on "better communicating what is openstack", I started a thread[1] about moving away from big tent terminology. The thread went in a lot of directions, inclu

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 06/28/2017 01:48 PM, Clay Gerrard wrote: On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 7:50 AM, Thierry Carrez > wrote: 2- it lets us host things that are not openstack but which we work on (like abandoned Python libraries or GPL-licensed things) in a familiar environm

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 7:50 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: > It's hard for newcomers to the OpenStack world to see what > is a part of OpenStack and what's not. Just an aside, this Perception problems works in our favor sometimes too. I know in the past some BigCorp contributors have been told to "

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 7:50 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: > > 2- it lets us host things that are not openstack but which we work on > (like abandoned Python libraries or GPL-licensed things) in a familiar > environment > > Do we no longer think openstack hosted infra holds a competitive advantage fo

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 06/28/2017 01:07 PM, Clint Byrum wrote: The root cause of all of this until now has been not really knowing what OpenStack is. The visioning recently done was a great step in the right direction toward this. I would like to make sure that we acknowledge this while we address symptoms of the pa

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

This message makes a bunch of salient, valid points, none of which I wish to directly address. However, on the whole, I think the analysis stops short of pushing through to a root cause, and thus, the solution proposed is entirely focused on symptoms. The root cause of all of this until now has b

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

Anita Kuno wrote: > On 2017-06-28 10:50 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: >> For (1) we could have an "onboarding" project team that would help >> incoming projects through the initial steps of becoming an openstack >> project. The team would act as an umbrella team, an experimental area >> for projects th

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On 2017-06-28 10:50 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote: For (1) we could have an "onboarding" project team that would help incoming projects through the initial steps of becoming an openstack project. The team would act as an umbrella team, an experimental area for projects that have some potential to beco

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 3:50 PM Thierry Carrez wrote: > Removing the root cause would be a more radical move: stop offering > hosting to non-OpenStack projects on OpenStack infrastructure > altogether. [...] I think this is the right solution for OpenStack. In particular, I think it will clari

Re: [openstack-dev] [all][tc] How to deal with confusion around "hosted projects"

Excerpts from Thierry Carrez's message of 2017-06-28 16:50:01 +0200: > Hi everyone, > > Two weeks ago, as a result of a discussion at the Board+TC+UC workgroup > working on "better communicating what is openstack", I started a > thread[1] about moving away from big tent terminology. The thread wen