Re: [openstack-dev] better name for placement

2018-09-05 Thread Jay Pipes

On 09/05/2018 11:48 AM, Jeremy Stanley wrote:

On 2018-09-05 17:01:49 +0200 (+0200), Thomas Goirand wrote:
[...]

In a distro, no 2 package can hold the same file. That's
forbidden. This has nothing to do if someone has to "import
placemement" or not.

Just saying this, but *not* that we should rename (I didn't spot
any conflict yet and I understand the pain it would induce). This
command returns nothing:

apt-file search placement | grep python3/dist-packages/placement


Well, also since the Placement maintainers have expressed that they
aren't interested in making Python API contracts for it to be usable
as an importable library, there's probably no need to install its
modules into the global Python search path anyway. They could just
go into a private module path on the filesystem instead as long as
the placement service/entrypoint wrapper knows where to find them,
right?


Yep.

-jay

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Re: [openstack-dev] better name for placement

2018-09-05 Thread Jeremy Stanley
On 2018-09-05 17:01:49 +0200 (+0200), Thomas Goirand wrote:
[...]
> In a distro, no 2 package can hold the same file. That's
> forbidden. This has nothing to do if someone has to "import
> placemement" or not.
> 
> Just saying this, but *not* that we should rename (I didn't spot
> any conflict yet and I understand the pain it would induce). This
> command returns nothing:
> 
> apt-file search placement | grep python3/dist-packages/placement

Well, also since the Placement maintainers have expressed that they
aren't interested in making Python API contracts for it to be usable
as an importable library, there's probably no need to install its
modules into the global Python search path anyway. They could just
go into a private module path on the filesystem instead as long as
the placement service/entrypoint wrapper knows where to find them,
right?
-- 
Jeremy Stanley


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Re: [openstack-dev] better name for placement

2018-09-05 Thread Thomas Goirand
On 09/04/2018 06:25 PM, Jay Pipes wrote:
> On 09/04/2018 12:17 PM, Doug Hellmann wrote:
>> Excerpts from Jay Pipes's message of 2018-09-04 12:08:41 -0400:
>>> On 09/04/2018 11:44 AM, Doug Hellmann wrote:
 Excerpts from Chris Dent's message of 2018-09-04 15:32:12 +0100:
> On Tue, 4 Sep 2018, Jay Pipes wrote:
>
>> Is there a reason we couldn't have openstack-placement be the
>> package name?
>
> I would hope we'd be able to do that, and probably should do that.
> 'openstack-placement' seems a find pypi package name for a think
> from which you do 'import placement' to do some openstack stuff,
> yeah?

 That's still a pretty generic name for the top-level import, but I
 think
 the only real risk is that the placement service couldn't be installed
 at the same time as another package owned by someone else that used
 that
 top-level name. I'm not sure how much of a risk that really is.
>>>
>>> You mean if there was another Python package that used the package name
>>> "placement"?
>>>
>>> The alternative would be to make the top-level package something like
>>> os_placement instead?
> 
> Either one works for me. Though I'm pretty sure that it isn't necessary.
> The reason it isn't necessary is because the stuff in the top-level
> placement package isn't meant to be imported by anything at all.

In a distro, no 2 package can hold the same file. That's forbidden. This
has nothing to do if someone has to "import placemement" or not.

Just saying this, but *not* that we should rename (I didn't spot any
conflict yet and I understand the pain it would induce). This command
returns nothing:

apt-file search placement | grep python3/dist-packages/placement

Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)

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Re: [openstack-dev] better name for placement

2018-09-04 Thread Ed Leafe
On Sep 4, 2018, at 12:44 PM, Chris Dent  wrote:
> 
> Changing the name, again, is painful. Please, let's not do it.

I was in favor of coming up with a project name for placement. It was 
discussed, and the decision was made not to do so. We have since moved forward 
with the outcome of that decision. Revisiting it now would be painful, as Chris 
notes, and do nothing to advance the progress we have been making. Let’s focus 
on the work in front of us, and not waste time revisiting past decisions.

-- Ed Leafe






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Re: [openstack-dev] better name for placement

2018-09-04 Thread Chris Dent

On Tue, 4 Sep 2018, Jay Pipes wrote:

I wasn't in YVR, which explains why I's never heard of it. There's a number 
of misconceptions in the above document about the placement service that 
don't seem to have been addressed. I'm wondering if its worth revisiting the 
topic in Denver with the Cinder team or whether the Cinder team isn't 
interested in working with the placement service?


It was also discussed as part of the reshaper spec and implemented
for future use by a potential fast forward upgrade tool:


http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/nova-specs/specs/rocky/approved/reshape-provider-tree.html#direct-placement

https://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/nova/tree/nova/api/openstack/placement/direct.py

I agree, talking to Cinder some more in denver about use of
placement, either over HTTP or direct, whatever form, is good.

But I don't think any of that should impact the naming situation.
It's placement now, and placement is not really any less unique than
a lot of the other words we use, the direct situation is a very
special and edge case (likely in containers anyway, so naming not as
much of a big deal). Changing the name, again, is painful. Please,
let's not do it.

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Re: [openstack-dev] better name for placement

2018-09-04 Thread Jay Pipes

On 09/04/2018 01:17 PM, Balázs Gibizer wrote:

On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 7:01 PM, Jay Pipes  wrote:

On 09/04/2018 12:59 PM, Balázs Gibizer wrote:

On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 6:25 PM, Jay Pipes  wrote:

On 09/04/2018 12:17 PM, Doug Hellmann wrote:

Excerpts from Jay Pipes's message of 2018-09-04 12:08:41 -0400:

On 09/04/2018 11:44 AM, Doug Hellmann wrote:

Excerpts from Chris Dent's message of 2018-09-04 15:32:12 +0100:

On Tue, 4 Sep 2018, Jay Pipes wrote:

Is there a reason we couldn't have 
openstack-placement be the package name?


I would hope we'd be able to do that, and probably should do that.
'openstack-placement' seems a find pypi package name for a think
from which you do 'import placement' to do some openstack stuff,
yeah?


That's still a pretty generic name for the top-level 
import, but I think
the only real risk is that the placement service couldn't be 
installed
at the same time as another package owned by someone 
else that used that

top-level name. I'm not sure how much of a risk that really is.


You mean if there was another Python package that used the package 
name

"placement"?

The alternative would be to make the top-level package something like
os_placement instead?


Either one works for me. Though I'm pretty sure that it isn't 
necessary. The reason it isn't necessary is because the stuff 
in the top-level placement package isn't meant to be imported by 
anything at all. It's the placement server code.


What about placement direct and the effort to allow cinder to 
import placement instead of running it as a separate service?


I don't know what placement direct is. Placement wasn't designed to be 
imported as a module. It was designed to be a (micro-)service with a 
REST API for interfacing.


In Vancouver we talked about allowing cinder to import placement as a 
library. See https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-cinder-placement L47


I wasn't in YVR, which explains why I's never heard of it. There's a 
number of misconceptions in the above document about the placement 
service that don't seem to have been addressed. I'm wondering if its 
worth revisiting the topic in Denver with the Cinder team or whether the 
Cinder team isn't interested in working with the placement service?


-jay

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Re: [openstack-dev] better name for placement

2018-09-04 Thread Balázs Gibizer



On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 7:01 PM, Jay Pipes  wrote:

On 09/04/2018 12:59 PM, Balázs Gibizer wrote:

On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 6:25 PM, Jay Pipes  wrote:

On 09/04/2018 12:17 PM, Doug Hellmann wrote:

Excerpts from Jay Pipes's message of 2018-09-04 12:08:41 -0400:

On 09/04/2018 11:44 AM, Doug Hellmann wrote:

Excerpts from Chris Dent's message of 2018-09-04 15:32:12 +0100:

On Tue, 4 Sep 2018, Jay Pipes wrote:

Is there a reason we couldn't have openstack-placement be the 
package name?


I would hope we'd be able to do that, and probably should do 
that.

'openstack-placement' seems a find pypi package name for a think
from which you do 'import placement' to do some openstack stuff,
yeah?


That's still a pretty generic name for the top-level import, but 
I think
the only real risk is that the placement service couldn't be 
installed
at the same time as another package owned by someone else that 
used that

top-level name. I'm not sure how much of a risk that really is.


You mean if there was another Python package that used the 
package name

"placement"?

The alternative would be to make the top-level package something 
like

os_placement instead?


Either one works for me. Though I'm pretty sure that it isn't 
necessary. The reason it isn't necessary is because the stuff in 
the top-level placement package isn't meant to be imported by 
anything at all. It's the placement server code.


What about placement direct and the effort to allow cinder to import 
placement instead of running it as a separate service?


I don't know what placement direct is. Placement wasn't designed to 
be imported as a module. It was designed to be a (micro-)service with 
a REST API for interfacing.


In Vancouver we talked about allowing cinder to import placement as a 
library. See https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-cinder-placement L47


Cheers,
gibi



Best,
-jay

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Re: [openstack-dev] better name for placement

2018-09-04 Thread Jay Pipes

On 09/04/2018 12:59 PM, Balázs Gibizer wrote:

On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 6:25 PM, Jay Pipes  wrote:

On 09/04/2018 12:17 PM, Doug Hellmann wrote:

Excerpts from Jay Pipes's message of 2018-09-04 12:08:41 -0400:

On 09/04/2018 11:44 AM, Doug Hellmann wrote:

Excerpts from Chris Dent's message of 2018-09-04 15:32:12 +0100:

On Tue, 4 Sep 2018, Jay Pipes wrote:

Is there a reason we couldn't have openstack-placement be the 
package name?


I would hope we'd be able to do that, and probably should do that.
'openstack-placement' seems a find pypi package name for a think
from which you do 'import placement' to do some openstack stuff,
yeah?


That's still a pretty generic name for the top-level import, but I 
think

the only real risk is that the placement service couldn't be installed
at the same time as another package owned by someone else that used 
that

top-level name. I'm not sure how much of a risk that really is.


You mean if there was another Python package that used the package name
"placement"?

The alternative would be to make the top-level package something like
os_placement instead?


Either one works for me. Though I'm pretty sure that it isn't 
necessary. The reason it isn't necessary is because the stuff in the 
top-level placement package isn't meant to be imported by anything at 
all. It's the placement server code.


What about placement direct and the effort to allow cinder to import 
placement instead of running it as a separate service?


I don't know what placement direct is. Placement wasn't designed to be 
imported as a module. It was designed to be a (micro-)service with a 
REST API for interfacing.


Best,
-jay

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Re: [openstack-dev] better name for placement

2018-09-04 Thread Balázs Gibizer



On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 6:25 PM, Jay Pipes  wrote:

On 09/04/2018 12:17 PM, Doug Hellmann wrote:

Excerpts from Jay Pipes's message of 2018-09-04 12:08:41 -0400:

On 09/04/2018 11:44 AM, Doug Hellmann wrote:

Excerpts from Chris Dent's message of 2018-09-04 15:32:12 +0100:

On Tue, 4 Sep 2018, Jay Pipes wrote:

Is there a reason we couldn't have openstack-placement be the 
package name?


I would hope we'd be able to do that, and probably should do that.
'openstack-placement' seems a find pypi package name for a think
from which you do 'import placement' to do some openstack stuff,
yeah?


That's still a pretty generic name for the top-level import, but I 
think
the only real risk is that the placement service couldn't be 
installed
at the same time as another package owned by someone else that 
used that

top-level name. I'm not sure how much of a risk that really is.


You mean if there was another Python package that used the package 
name

"placement"?

The alternative would be to make the top-level package something 
like

os_placement instead?


Either one works for me. Though I'm pretty sure that it isn't 
necessary. The reason it isn't necessary is because the stuff in the 
top-level placement package isn't meant to be imported by anything at 
all. It's the placement server code.


What about placement direct and the effort to allow cinder to import 
placement instead of running it as a separate service?


Cheers,
gibi



Nothing is going to be adding openstack-placement into its 
requirements.txt file or doing:


 from placement import blah

If some part of the server repo is meant to be imported into some 
other system, say nova, then it will be pulled into a separate lib, 
ala ironiclib or neutronlib.


Best,
-jay

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Re: [openstack-dev] better name for placement

2018-09-04 Thread Chris Dent

On Tue, 4 Sep 2018, Jay Pipes wrote:

Either one works for me. Though I'm pretty sure that it isn't necessary. The 
reason it isn't necessary is because the stuff in the top-level placement 
package isn't meant to be imported by anything at all. It's the placement 
server code.


Yes.

If some part of the server repo is meant to be imported into some other 
system, say nova, then it will be pulled into a separate lib, ala ironiclib 
or neutronlib.


Also yes.

At this stage I _really_ don't want to go through the trouble of
doing a second rename: we're in the process of finishing a rename
now.

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Re: [openstack-dev] better name for placement

2018-09-04 Thread Jay Pipes

On 09/04/2018 12:17 PM, Doug Hellmann wrote:

Excerpts from Jay Pipes's message of 2018-09-04 12:08:41 -0400:

On 09/04/2018 11:44 AM, Doug Hellmann wrote:

Excerpts from Chris Dent's message of 2018-09-04 15:32:12 +0100:

On Tue, 4 Sep 2018, Jay Pipes wrote:


Is there a reason we couldn't have openstack-placement be the package name?


I would hope we'd be able to do that, and probably should do that.
'openstack-placement' seems a find pypi package name for a think
from which you do 'import placement' to do some openstack stuff,
yeah?


That's still a pretty generic name for the top-level import, but I think
the only real risk is that the placement service couldn't be installed
at the same time as another package owned by someone else that used that
top-level name. I'm not sure how much of a risk that really is.


You mean if there was another Python package that used the package name
"placement"?

The alternative would be to make the top-level package something like
os_placement instead?


Either one works for me. Though I'm pretty sure that it isn't necessary. 
The reason it isn't necessary is because the stuff in the top-level 
placement package isn't meant to be imported by anything at all. It's 
the placement server code.


Nothing is going to be adding openstack-placement into its 
requirements.txt file or doing:


 from placement import blah

If some part of the server repo is meant to be imported into some other 
system, say nova, then it will be pulled into a separate lib, ala 
ironiclib or neutronlib.


Best,
-jay

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Re: [openstack-dev] better name for placement

2018-09-04 Thread Doug Hellmann
Excerpts from Jay Pipes's message of 2018-09-04 12:08:41 -0400:
> On 09/04/2018 11:44 AM, Doug Hellmann wrote:
> > Excerpts from Chris Dent's message of 2018-09-04 15:32:12 +0100:
> >> On Tue, 4 Sep 2018, Jay Pipes wrote:
> >>
> >>> Is there a reason we couldn't have openstack-placement be the package 
> >>> name?
> >>
> >> I would hope we'd be able to do that, and probably should do that.
> >> 'openstack-placement' seems a find pypi package name for a think
> >> from which you do 'import placement' to do some openstack stuff,
> >> yeah?
> > 
> > That's still a pretty generic name for the top-level import, but I think
> > the only real risk is that the placement service couldn't be installed
> > at the same time as another package owned by someone else that used that
> > top-level name. I'm not sure how much of a risk that really is.
> 
> You mean if there was another Python package that used the package name 
> "placement"?
> 
> The alternative would be to make the top-level package something like 
> os_placement instead?

Yes.

Doug

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Re: [openstack-dev] better name for placement

2018-09-04 Thread Jay Pipes

On 09/04/2018 11:44 AM, Doug Hellmann wrote:

Excerpts from Chris Dent's message of 2018-09-04 15:32:12 +0100:

On Tue, 4 Sep 2018, Jay Pipes wrote:


Is there a reason we couldn't have openstack-placement be the package name?


I would hope we'd be able to do that, and probably should do that.
'openstack-placement' seems a find pypi package name for a think
from which you do 'import placement' to do some openstack stuff,
yeah?


That's still a pretty generic name for the top-level import, but I think
the only real risk is that the placement service couldn't be installed
at the same time as another package owned by someone else that used that
top-level name. I'm not sure how much of a risk that really is.


You mean if there was another Python package that used the package name 
"placement"?


The alternative would be to make the top-level package something like 
os_placement instead?


Best,
-jay

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Re: [openstack-dev] better name for placement

2018-09-04 Thread Jeremy Stanley
On 2018-09-04 11:44:41 -0400 (-0400), Doug Hellmann wrote:
> Excerpts from Chris Dent's message of 2018-09-04 15:32:12 +0100:
[...]
> > I would hope we'd be able to do that, and probably should do that.
> > 'openstack-placement' seems a find pypi package name for a think
> > from which you do 'import placement' to do some openstack stuff,
> > yeah?
> 
> That's still a pretty generic name for the top-level import, but I think
> the only real risk is that the placement service couldn't be installed
> at the same time as another package owned by someone else that used that
> top-level name. I'm not sure how much of a risk that really is.
[...]

Well, it goes further than just the local system. For example, if
there was another project unrelated to OpenStack which also had a
module named "placement" in the default import path, then Debian
wouldn't be able to carry packages for both projects without
modifying. At least one would need the module renamed or would need
to put it in a private path and then any consumers would need to be
adjusted to suit.
-- 
Jeremy Stanley


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Re: [openstack-dev] better name for placement

2018-09-04 Thread Doug Hellmann
Excerpts from Chris Dent's message of 2018-09-04 15:32:12 +0100:
> On Tue, 4 Sep 2018, Jay Pipes wrote:
> 
> > Is there a reason we couldn't have openstack-placement be the package name?
> 
> I would hope we'd be able to do that, and probably should do that.
> 'openstack-placement' seems a find pypi package name for a think
> from which you do 'import placement' to do some openstack stuff,
> yeah?

That's still a pretty generic name for the top-level import, but I think
the only real risk is that the placement service couldn't be installed
at the same time as another package owned by someone else that used that
top-level name. I'm not sure how much of a risk that really is.

> 
> Last I checked the concept of the package name is sort of put off
> until we have passing tests, but we're nearly there on that.
> 

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Re: [openstack-dev] better name for placement

2018-09-04 Thread Doug Hellmann
Excerpts from Jay Pipes's message of 2018-09-04 10:05:28 -0400:
> On 09/04/2018 09:37 AM, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
> > On 2018-09-04 09:32:20 +0100 (+0100), Chris Dent wrote:
> > [...]
> >> it allowed for the possibility that there could be another project
> >> which provided the same service-type. That hasn't really come to
> >> pass
> > [...]
> > 
> > It still might make sense to attempt to look at this issue from
> > outside the limited scope of the OpenStack community. Is the
> > expectation that the project when packaged (on PyPI, in Linux
> > distributions and so on) will just be referred to as "placement"
> > with no further context?
> 
> I don't see any reason why the package name needs to be identical to the 
> repo name.
> 
> Is there a reason we couldn't have openstack-placement be the package name?

That would work fine. The package name is set in setup.cfg and we
have several examples where the value there and repo name don't
match.

Doug

> 
> Best,
> -jay
> 

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Re: [openstack-dev] better name for placement

2018-09-04 Thread Chris Dent

On Tue, 4 Sep 2018, Jay Pipes wrote:


Is there a reason we couldn't have openstack-placement be the package name?


I would hope we'd be able to do that, and probably should do that.
'openstack-placement' seems a find pypi package name for a think
from which you do 'import placement' to do some openstack stuff,
yeah?

Last I checked the concept of the package name is sort of put off
until we have passing tests, but we're nearly there on that.

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Re: [openstack-dev] better name for placement

2018-09-04 Thread Jay Pipes

On 09/04/2018 09:37 AM, Jeremy Stanley wrote:

On 2018-09-04 09:32:20 +0100 (+0100), Chris Dent wrote:
[...]

it allowed for the possibility that there could be another project
which provided the same service-type. That hasn't really come to
pass

[...]

It still might make sense to attempt to look at this issue from
outside the limited scope of the OpenStack community. Is the
expectation that the project when packaged (on PyPI, in Linux
distributions and so on) will just be referred to as "placement"
with no further context?


I don't see any reason why the package name needs to be identical to the 
repo name.


Is there a reason we couldn't have openstack-placement be the package name?

Best,
-jay

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Re: [openstack-dev] better name for placement (was:Nominating Chris Dent for placement-core)

2018-09-04 Thread Jeremy Stanley
On 2018-09-04 09:32:20 +0100 (+0100), Chris Dent wrote:
[...]
> it allowed for the possibility that there could be another project
> which provided the same service-type. That hasn't really come to
> pass
[...]

It still might make sense to attempt to look at this issue from
outside the limited scope of the OpenStack community. Is the
expectation that the project when packaged (on PyPI, in Linux
distributions and so on) will just be referred to as "placement"
with no further context?
-- 
Jeremy Stanley


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Re: [openstack-dev] better name for placement (was:Nominating Chris Dent for placement-core)

2018-09-04 Thread Chris Dent

On Tue, 4 Sep 2018, Thomas Goirand wrote:


Just a nit-pick... It's a shame we call it just placement. It could have
been something like:

foo: OpenStack placement

Just like we have:

nova: OpenStack compute

No? Is it too late?


There was some discussion about this on one of the
extraction-related etherpads [1] and the gist is that while it would
be possible to change it, at this point "placement" is the name
people use and are used to so there would have to be a very good
reason to change it. All the docs and code talk about "placement",
and python package names are already placement.

It used to be the case that the service-oriented projects would have
a project name different from their service-type because that was
cool/fun [2] and it allowed for the possibility that there could be
another project which provided the same service-type. That hasn't
really come to pass and now that we are on the far side of the hype
curve, doesn't really make much sense in terms of focusing energy.

My feeling is that there is already a lot of identity associated
with the term "placement" and changing it would be too disruptive.
Also, I hope that it will operate as a constraint on feature creep.

But if we were to change it, I vote for "katabatic", as a noun, even
though it is an adjective.

[1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/placement-extract-stein-copy
That was a copy of the original, which stopped working, but now that
one has stopped working too. I'm going to attempt to reconstruct it
today from copies that people.

[2] For certain values of...

--
Chris Dent   ٩◔̯◔۶   https://anticdent.org/
freenode: cdent tw: @anticdent__
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Re: [openstack-dev] better name for placement (was:Nominating Chris Dent for placement-core)

2018-09-04 Thread Thomas Goirand
On 08/31/2018 05:45 PM, Eric Fried wrote:
> The openstack/placement project [1] and its core team [2] have been
> established in gerrit.
> 
> I hereby nominate Chris Dent for membership in the placement-core team.
> He has been instrumental in the design, implementation, and stewardship
> of the placement API since its inception and has shown clear and
> consistent leadership.
> 
> As we are effectively bootstrapping placement-core at this time, it
> would seem appropriate to consider +1/-1 responses from heavy placement
> contributors as well as existing cores (currently nova-core).
> 
> [1] https://review.openstack.org/#/admin/projects/openstack/placement
> [2] https://review.openstack.org/#/admin/groups/1936,members

Just a nit-pick... It's a shame we call it just placement. It could have
been something like:

foo: OpenStack placement

Just like we have:

nova: OpenStack compute

No? Is it too late?
Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)

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