Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Am 15.01.23 um 17:51 schrieb Selva Nair: Hi, On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Arne Schwabe > wrote: Am 15.01.23 um 14:23 schrieb Selva Nair: > Hi, > >     We would like to be able to continue to build/ship OpenVPN with mbed >     TLS. We

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Hi, On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Arne Schwabe wrote: > Am 15.01.23 um 14:23 schrieb Selva Nair: > > Hi, > > > > We would like to be able to continue to build/ship OpenVPN with mbed > > TLS. We want all contributors to ask if they agree to license change > > that adds explicit

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Yes but neither mbed TLS nor OpenSSL is a system library on Windows or macOS. And even mbed TLS is sketchy as many distributions do not have in their base system. So just assume, at least for the sake of argument that they are not. In that case I think we need this exception. So I am asking

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

вс, 15 янв. 2023 г. в 22:29, Gert Doering : > HI, > > On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 10:12:03PM +0600, ?? wrote: > > 1) distributing openssl dll for windows installer is illegal > > 2) distributing openssl/libressl with tunnelblick is illegal > > Neither, because we do have an

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

On Sun, 2023-01-15 at 16:04 +0100, Gert Doering wrote: > Hi, > > On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 08:37:00AM -0500, James Bottomley wrote: > > The GNU project began in 1982.  Static libraries for SYS-V were > > initially proposed around 1986 and didn't become widespread until > > the 90s. > > And exactly

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

HI, On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 10:12:03PM +0600, ?? wrote: > 1) distributing openssl dll for windows installer is illegal > 2) distributing openssl/libressl with tunnelblick is illegal Neither, because we do have an exception for OpenSSL. But distributing with mbedTLS is what

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Am 15.01.23 um 17:12 schrieb Илья Шипицин: that means 1) distributing openssl dll for windows installer is illegal 2) distributing openssl/libressl with tunnelblick is illegal It means the exception for OpenSSL applies to it and it is on very solid ground (at least with OpenSSL up to

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

On Sun, 2023-01-15 at 16:34 +0100, Arne Schwabe wrote: > Am 15.01.23 um 16:22 schrieb James Bottomley: > > On Sun, 2023-01-15 at 15:22 +0100, Arne Schwabe wrote: [...] > > >   So you are right in the sense that the Apache2 is just > > > a normal library to link for most purposes, the GPL licenses

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

that means 1) distributing openssl dll for windows installer is illegal 2) distributing openssl/libressl with tunnelblick is illegal ? вс, 15 янв. 2023 г. в 22:09, Arne Schwabe : > Am 15.01.23 um 17:07 schrieb Илья Шипицин: > > just curious, is linking against LibreSSL allowed ? os x

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Am 15.01.23 um 17:07 schrieb Илья Шипицин: just curious, is linking against LibreSSL allowed ? os x Tunnelblick is shipped with both LibreSSL and OpenSSL builds, but neither of them is "system" lib as far as I know. LibreSSL counts as modification of OpenSSL. Arne

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

just curious, is linking against LibreSSL allowed ? os x Tunnelblick is shipped with both LibreSSL and OpenSSL builds, but neither of them is "system" lib as far as I know. вс, 15 янв. 2023 г. в 21:35, Arne Schwabe : > Am 15.01.23 um 16:22 schrieb James Bottomley: > > On Sun, 2023-01-15 at 15:22

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Am 15.01.23 um 16:22 schrieb James Bottomley: On Sun, 2023-01-15 at 15:22 +0100, Arne Schwabe wrote: If that's the source of this issue, then I think there's a misunderstanding about the problem the OpenSSL exception is addressing. The problem was that the OpenSSL licence required additional

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Hi, On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 10:22:06AM -0500, James Bottomley wrote: > > And then the restrictions become a problem. > > Only if the library you're linking with isn't a system library, which I > think we can all agree in not the case on every Linux distribution > because they all ship both

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

On Sun, 2023-01-15 at 15:22 +0100, Arne Schwabe wrote: > > > If that's the source of this issue, then I think there's a > > misunderstanding about the problem the OpenSSL exception is > > addressing. The problem was that the OpenSSL licence required > > additional conditions be imposed on the

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Hi, On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 08:37:00AM -0500, James Bottomley wrote: > The GNU project began in 1982. Static libraries for SYS-V were > initially proposed around 1986 and didn't become widespread until the > 90s. And exactly when was *the Apache license* published, or GPL *v2*? This was the

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Hi, On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 08:23:11AM -0500, Selva Nair wrote: > Some may find this discussion a waste of time but let's not belittle > people's contributions. > I do care about how my work is licensed. I find having to spend my time on "how can two *free software licenses* be made compatible"

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

If that's the source of this issue, then I think there's a misunderstanding about the problem the OpenSSL exception is addressing. The problem was that the OpenSSL licence required additional conditions be imposed on the binary as a whole, even though openssl itself was a system library.

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Am 15.01.23 um 14:23 schrieb Selva Nair: Hi, We would like to be able to continue to build/ship OpenVPN with mbed TLS. We want all contributors to ask if they agree to license change that adds explicit permission to link with Apache 2 licensed libraries: Special exception for

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

On Sun, 2023-01-15 at 05:23 +0100, Arne Schwabe wrote: > > Even if, for the sake of argument, I assume that what you're doing > > isn't covered by the system library exception, then what you're > > proposing doesn't fix your problem.  Your problem becomes section 2 > > of the GPLv2: you must

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

On Sun, 2023-01-15 at 14:12 +0100, Arne Schwabe wrote: > Am 15.01.23 um 14:10 schrieb Matthias Andree: > > Am 15.01.23 um 12:44 schrieb Gert Doering: > > > Hi, > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 14, 2023 at 05:28:09PM -0500, James Bottomley wrote: > > > > What do you mean "a source"? every apache licensed

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Hi, We would like to be able to continue to build/ship OpenVPN with mbed > TLS. We want all contributors to ask if they agree to license change > that adds explicit permission to link with Apache 2 licensed libraries: > > > Special exception for linking OpenVPN with Apache 2 licensed libraries: >

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Am 15.01.23 um 14:10 schrieb Matthias Andree: Am 15.01.23 um 12:44 schrieb Gert Doering: Hi, On Sat, Jan 14, 2023 at 05:28:09PM -0500, James Bottomley wrote: What do you mean "a source"? every apache licensed library that's statically linked with a GPLv2 program would be an example of this

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

вс, 15 янв. 2023 г. в 19:09, Arne Schwabe : > Am 15.01.23 um 13:52 schrieb Илья Шипицин: > > subject says "allow mbed TLS 3.x linking". > > is OpenSSL currently restrictive as well ? > > > > Yes that is what the subject says but OpenSSL 3 also uses Apache 2. > > In laymen terms, the Apache 2

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Am 15.01.23 um 12:44 schrieb Gert Doering: Hi, On Sat, Jan 14, 2023 at 05:28:09PM -0500, James Bottomley wrote: What do you mean "a source"? every apache licensed library that's statically linked with a GPLv2 program would be an example of this ... in the early days there was no dynamic

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Am 15.01.23 um 13:52 schrieb Илья Шипицин: subject says "allow mbed TLS 3.x linking". is OpenSSL currently restrictive as well ? Yes that is what the subject says but OpenSSL 3 also uses Apache 2. In laymen terms, the Apache 2 license contains additional protections for users using the

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Hi, On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 06:52:40PM +0600, ?? wrote: > subject says "allow mbed TLS 3.x linking". > is OpenSSL currently restrictive as well ? OpenSSL has always been restrictive, which is why our license has always had a permit-linking-to-OpenSSL exception. gert --

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

subject says "allow mbed TLS 3.x linking". is OpenSSL currently restrictive as well ? вс, 15 янв. 2023 г. в 18:24, Arne Schwabe : > Am 15.01.23 um 13:21 schrieb Илья Шипицин: > > I am fine with dropping MBED TLS for good > > > > Please read the full mail. This also affects OpenSSL. We would like

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Hi, On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 06:21:21PM +0600, ?? wrote: > I am fine with dropping MBED TLS for good This is not the question asked. For the record: I am fine with the proposed change of license. (I think this is all a tremendous waste of time, but since sufficient number

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Am 15.01.23 um 13:21 schrieb Илья Шипицин: I am fine with dropping MBED TLS for good Please read the full mail. This also affects OpenSSL. We would like to reaffirm that contributors are still okay linking with OpenSSL even after OpenSSL changed its license to Apache2. Arne

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

I am fine with dropping MBED TLS for good On Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 11:30 PM Arne Schwabe wrote: > Hey, > > This is the first round and will be only to the openvpn-devel list. > After that I will also write to individuals email addresses but I want > to start with sending this to the devel list. >

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Hi, On Sat, Jan 14, 2023 at 05:28:09PM -0500, James Bottomley wrote: > What do you mean "a source"? every apache licensed library that's > statically linked with a GPLv2 program would be an example of this ... > in the early days there was no dynamic linking, so all the early GNU > tools were

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

If you are okay with this, please reply to this mail and confirm that. Otherwise we might be forced to remove and/or rewrite your code. The GPL, in its spirit, was developed to empower users, not businesses. So, after pondering for many hours about planned obsolescence, vendor respect for the

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Am 14.01.23 um 18:29 schrieb Arne Schwabe: Hey, This is the first round and will be only to the openvpn-devel list. After that I will also write to individuals email addresses but I want to start with sending this to the devel list. We are writing to you since you are or were a contributor in

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Also for platforms like Android, Windows and macOS we are shipping OpenSSL and mbed TLS ourselves since they are NOT provided by the system. Would I be correct in assuming that the "we" here isn't the openvpn project and is, in fact, some corporation that wants legal cover for its business

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

On Sat, 2023-01-14 at 21:34 +0100, Arne Schwabe wrote: > Am 14.01.2023 um 20:57 schrieb James Bottomley: > > On Sat, 2023-01-14 at 18:29 +0100, Arne Schwabe wrote: > > > Hey, > > > > > > This is the first round and will be only to the openvpn-devel > > > list. After that I will also write to

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Am 14.01.2023 um 20:57 schrieb James Bottomley: On Sat, 2023-01-14 at 18:29 +0100, Arne Schwabe wrote: Hey, This is the first round and will be only to the openvpn-devel list. After that I will also write to individuals email addresses but I want to start with sending this to the devel list.

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

On Sat, 2023-01-14 at 18:29 +0100, Arne Schwabe wrote: > Hey, > > This is the first round and will be only to the openvpn-devel list. > After that I will also write to individuals email addresses but I > want to start with sending this to the devel list. > > We are writing to you since you are

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Am 14.01.23 um 19:44 schrieb Arne Schwabe: Am 14.01.2023 um 19:35 schrieb Matthias Andree: Am 14.01.23 um 18:29 schrieb Arne Schwabe: We also considered going for a change from GPL2 to GPL2+ but we think that GPL3 would hurt the ability to distribute OpenVPN as part of router or other

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Am 14.01.2023 um 19:35 schrieb Matthias Andree: Am 14.01.23 um 18:29 schrieb Arne Schwabe: We also considered going for a change from GPL2 to GPL2+ but we think that GPL3 would hurt the ability to distribute OpenVPN as part of router or other embedded devices as the GPL3 has been explicitly

Re: [Openvpn-devel] Amend OpenVPN license to allow continued mbed TLS support (allow mbed TLS 3.x linking)

Am 14.01.23 um 18:29 schrieb Arne Schwabe: We also considered going for a change from GPL2 to GPL2+ but we think that GPL3 would hurt the ability to distribute OpenVPN as part of router or other embedded devices as the GPL3 has been explicitly developed (at least in part) to make this use case