RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: Joseph, You see, Joseph, it's this kind of humor that makes people think of waking up next to their favorite racehorse's head. Not sure what your point is, here, pardner. After all, I was saying this My point is that some slow people, like me, can't always tell right away when you are kidding (remember A Swedish Idea). Mafia-Godfather I-horsehead in movie director's bed. Get it? But I wasn't kidding... Anyway, enough of that. I hope so! They deserve them. At any rate, I have a little more information about the deal now than I did; your dire warnings are, IMHO, unfounded. Sure, there are some nasty implications for those poor souls still waiting for Godot^WIronflare to provide Oracle-level support for Orion, but even those are merely implications and not a fomral reality yet. Okay. Somehow, I don't think Karl is going to ever teach me the secret Ironflare handshake. Me either. Although I'm betting it involves lutefisk somehow. Those silly Finns! course, Adrian (creator of the VirtualAdrian tools) is a god and I'm just a troll (as someone recently pointed out), but even trolls get lucky now and then. Are you a BLIND troll, that's the real question. [snip, snippety snip snip snip!] BLIND and DUMB. You're slipping, not snipping, Joseph. Nah, I'm trying to have fun. That's an unfair critique of a phrase-based pun, you might say, and you're offending me greatly! I'm going to add you to my kill-file, report you to the FBI (in addition to the FBI, the CIA, and the NSA, and the local police), and send you a bottle of glue, because I can't afford a horse and that's the closest I can get. My point is that the dance between Orion and Oracle could be just as complex. Sure, could be. But isn't. :) I'm not trying to hold some special knowldge over your head, and it's quite possible that what I know is public knowledge, but until I confirm that, I ain't saying. Secret handshake and secret decoder ring... Well, okay - maybe I have a slight advantage because I talk to them online every so often, and I'm the guy who said Hey, I've got a server, orion needs support, they ain't doing it, so I will. Maybe that gets me a little more info every now and then, especially when I ask directly. In addition, I eat a LOT of Captain Crunch, and they have those neatoriffic toys... Doubt THAT - the whole reason they licensed Orion is because they found that they were getting the real tough problems and their lousy infrastructure wasn't set up for it. Not a matter of THEIR SKILL, mind you, but of the original thought that went into their misbegotten app server crap. Maybe so. What about Karl's pledge 6 months ago that hiring the right people was Ironflare's first order of business? They've hired one recently, or so I've heard. And I don't know who they hired, but I've heard the same thing. OTOH, maybe their hiring critieria is very strict - which I can understand. I'm really more or less on your side on this particular issue, but more on this later... I have confidence; however, most of my major (Fortune 500) clients have not shown confidence in products where the only two people in the world who understand the guts of it live 8,000 miles away and might get hit by a bolt of lightening at the same time. Something like, Oops, we regret to inform you that we cannot support your $30M startup because the only two people who can answer that question are unavailable. Ah ha! And this is where Oracle turns out to be a HUGE win for us (and Ironflare). Now, you don't have to rely on an inconsistent mailing list and two (maybe three) developers. Now you can say, Hey, got $40K? Buy Oracle, and you'll be off and running with a full support network. While it's possible OC4J could fork from Orion's codebase, the chances of a severe fork are very slim. (Yes, the chances are there, from what I understand.) Slim chances, of course, mean that it will definitely happen, and the sky will fall, and I *will* win a game of Civ:CTP before... um... the day ends. You seem to have inside knowledge about this. Does Oracle (or anyone besides Karl and Magnus) have a copy of the Orion Server source code? I'll leave that answer to the principals involved. I don't know WHAT they have, exactly. I would like to see Oracle at least attempt to hire some of the people around the world who contributed their valuable time to debugging Orion free of charge. NOT ME. I'm not looking for a job with Orionacle. Me either... but I'm not sure if this is your actual gripe. If it is, hey, um, wow... you're over-reacting by a lot, IMHO. It's a big part of my gripe. There's some sort of idea that there was/is a quid pro quo between free use of Orion and free testing/debugging by the user community. I don't agree with that, but let's say there is. Well, the game has now changed, that is, big bucks from Oracle. Let's play pretend, shall we? (This is called a
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: Joseph, Generally, I agree, but... I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). And usually if people know your problem, they'll get to it here, too. Agree. But most major customers avoid semi-open products because of the perception (right or wrong) that they can't purchase support, even if they have money to burn. Sure. Is Orion semi-open now? Because I've never seen anything of the sort, and I think I would have by now... I have argued that the orion-interest response is generally more accurate (than BEA, IBM Sun) because the big players must hide their embarassing flaws from the competition. This is why I believe Oracle MAY (not for sure! No flames please!) put pressure on Ironflare to be less forthcoming about internal flaws. Sure, I can understand this -- good thing we have orionsupport.com, which isn't affiliated with Ironflare. This is why I've never been willing to advertise anything on orionsupport, and why I'm not directly affiliated in any way with Ironflare - because I want the freedom to some day post something like Orion totally sucks in area XYZ (not mentioning anything like JMS, for example, am I?) without worrying about receiving a warning from the Swedish Mafia. Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Heh, you haven't LOOKED at Oracle much, have you? They *already* have support networks in place... The buck stops here sign is on Karl's and Magnus' desk, right? I hope they don't usually ride in the same car together all time. :) Well, I didn't know they HAD desks - I can see Satan doing all his work on a futon for some reason - but at this point, we don't know how much responsibility Oracle has taken. *shrug* We'll see. Stuck in the asylum, Jay At 03:42 PM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote: On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: Nathan, A lot of what you're saying is true. I acknowledge that Orion is relatively fast and has some great features (like auto-reconfigure), but I recall that Orion used to claim that it was the fastest J2EE product (or something like that), then had to remove that claim from the orionserver.com site (I think BEA challenged the claim). No, BEA didn't challenge the claim. BEA refuses anyone (IBM, etc.) to publish performance specs for comparison purposes. The result was that Orion couldn't say We did this in X, and BEA did it in Y. Orion is hardly unique in this. Also, one of the first questions I get asked when recommending software for clients is about support. It's probably the primary reason why major systems do not rely on open products, or semi-open products like Orion. Or Oracle... but wait, that might make the Oracle deal a win for Orion users. Yes, Karl and Magnus built a fabulous product, but where's the support (documentation, help desk, etc)? I've done well without it. I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). And usually if people know your problem, they'll get to it here, too. Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Heh, you haven't LOOKED at Oracle much, have you? They *already* have support networks in place... Jay At 09:32 AM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote: On a different note concerning the Oracle deal: I wasn't at JavaOne, but I've been reading all about it on the web. One news story that I've seen a lot about is Larry Ellison and Bill Coleman's little fight. Oracle has put Orion in the big leagues... I mean, Karl could have produced all sorts of documentation that said Orion is better then Weblogic, but BEA would have paid it no attention. However, when Oracle says Oracle is better then Weblogic, BEA certainly takes notice! I consider this a great victory for Ironflare, the J2EE community, and every single young person hacking away in his garage. This proves it--a few talented and committed developers can accomplish anything they set their minds too. I think Larry Ellison said it best, when, at JavaOne, he said We have thrown out literally all of our old Java code. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations is we had to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
At 02:18 AM 6/12/01 -0500, you wrote: On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: Joseph, Generally, I agree, but... I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). And usually if people know your problem, they'll get to it here, too. Agree. But most major customers avoid semi-open products because of the perception (right or wrong) that they can't purchase support, even if they have money to burn. Sure. Is Orion semi-open now? Because I've never seen anything of the sort, and I think I would have by now... My definition of semi-open: Free for development with no time expiration; not a time-limited trial. Pay for production. That is, products like Orion. I have argued that the orion-interest response is generally more accurate (than BEA, IBM Sun) because the big players must hide their embarassing flaws from the competition. This is why I believe Oracle MAY (not for sure! No flames please!) put pressure on Ironflare to be less forthcoming about internal flaws. Sure, I can understand this -- good thing we have orionsupport.com, which isn't affiliated with Ironflare. This is why I've never been willing to advertise anything on orionsupport, and why I'm not directly affiliated in any way with Ironflare - because I want the freedom to some day post something like Orion totally sucks in area XYZ (not mentioning anything like JMS, for example, am I?) without worrying about receiving a warning from the Swedish Mafia. You see, Joseph, it's this kind of humor that makes people think of waking up next to their favorite racehorse's head. Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Heh, you haven't LOOKED at Oracle much, have you? They *already* have support networks in place... The buck stops here sign is on Karl's and Magnus' desk, right? I hope they don't usually ride in the same car together all time. :) Well, I didn't know they HAD desks - I can see Satan doing all his work on a futon for some reason - but at this point, we don't know how much responsibility Oracle has taken. *shrug* We'll see. They may not have desks yet, but they can probably afford to order big, hand-carved, mahogony ones now. From your previous comment about looking at Oracle, let me cite an example about supporting integrated products. A couple of years ago, I found an error in Adrian Cockroft's book, Sun Performance and Tuning regarding the formulas for shared memory and semaphore settings in etc/system. Of course, Adrian (creator of the VirtualAdrian tools) is a god and I'm just a troll (as someone recently pointed out), but even trolls get lucky now and then. SunOS versions have a sort of mixed Unix ancestry of BSD and SystemV -- it's hard to tell for sure where one begins and the other ends. Unfortunately, Oracle handles resource contention for multiple users in a multiprocessor system differently, depending on whether it's running on BSD or SystemV. I'm not looking to start a SunOS/Oracle discussion here. If you disagree, just assume I'm crazy, and let's take that war off line. You can also set some things in Oracle's init.ora file that, presumably, influence performance (such as the number of spin locks, etc). Which takes precedence (etc/system or init.ora) isn't clear. Oracle provides some recommended settings for given Solaris configurations, but I didn't find an explanation of how to juggle the values. (Again, just assume I'm nuts and that this is true for the sake of argument). Because of the many real world problems with Oracle on Solaris, they created a special joint team to resolve issues. I never found any of them who could accurately explain this problem. Before Sun and Oracle fans join the Armstrong Barbecue Party, no, I didn't spend years looking. My point is that the dance between Orion and Oracle could be just as complex. For example, WebLogic does a nice job (so I'm told) of handling transactional integrity issues for redundant, clustered EJBs when the database connection pool goes down after a database update is made and before a client response goes out from the EJB container. I have not explored this kind of issue with the Orion/Oracle combination. (There are already threads on this, such as clustering two orions on the same machine). Karl/Magnus have not, apparently, hired the people on the Ironflare side to free them up to address such questions. Just because Oracle has a support infrastucture, call center, help desk, etc, does not mean that Oracle has anyone who can deal with the really tough problems. Before getting flamed again, I am NOT picking on Orion/Oracle here. I believe orion-interest and
Re: RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
Their j2ee implementations seemed like a bunch of open source glued together. Throw in the oddDuck idea of running ejb's inside the db server and it's no wonder they threw it away. Perhaps because they couldn't give it away. _ Get your free E-mail at http://www.ireland.com
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: Sure, I can understand this -- good thing we have orionsupport.com, which isn't affiliated with Ironflare. This is why I've never been willing to advertise anything on orionsupport, and why I'm not directly affiliated in any way with Ironflare - because I want the freedom to some day post something like Orion totally sucks in area XYZ (not mentioning anything like JMS, for example, am I?) without worrying about receiving a warning from the Swedish Mafia. You see, Joseph, it's this kind of humor that makes people think of waking up next to their favorite racehorse's head. Not sure what your point is, here, pardner. After all, I was saying this is why Orionsupport isn't directly affiliated, so that we wouldn't have to worry about that in any case... and then you say something that leads me to believe you took the exact wrong meaning. You've been doing that a lot; this kind of dedication takes a peculiar sort of effort. The buck stops here sign is on Karl's and Magnus' desk, right? I hope they don't usually ride in the same car together all time. :) Well, I didn't know they HAD desks - I can see Satan doing all his work on a futon for some reason - but at this point, we don't know how much responsibility Oracle has taken. *shrug* We'll see. They may not have desks yet, but they can probably afford to order big, hand-carved, mahogony ones now. I hope so! They deserve them. At any rate, I have a little more information about the deal now than I did; your dire warnings are, IMHO, unfounded. Sure, there are some nasty implications for those poor souls still waiting for Godot^WIronflare to provide Oracle-level support for Orion, but even those are merely implications and not a fomral reality yet. From your previous comment about looking at Oracle, let me cite an example about supporting integrated products. A couple of years ago, I found an error in Adrian Cockroft's book, Sun Performance and Tuning regarding the formulas for shared memory and semaphore settings in etc/system. Of course, Adrian (creator of the VirtualAdrian tools) is a god and I'm just a troll (as someone recently pointed out), but even trolls get lucky now and then. Are you a BLIND troll, that's the real question. [snip, snippety snip snip snip!] My point is that the dance between Orion and Oracle could be just as complex. Sure, could be. But isn't. :) I'm not trying to hold some special knowldge over your head, and it's quite possible that what I know is public knowledge, but until I confirm that, I ain't saying. Karl/Magnus have not, apparently, hired the people on the Ironflare side to free them up to address such questions. Just because Oracle has a support infrastucture, call center, help desk, etc, does not mean that Oracle has anyone who can deal with the really tough problems. Doubt THAT - the whole reason they licensed Orion is because they found that they were getting the real tough problems and their lousy infrastructure wasn't set up for it. Not a matter of THEIR SKILL, mind you, but of the original thought that went into their misbegotten app server crap. Before getting flamed again, I am NOT picking on Orion/Oracle here. I believe orion-interest and orionsupport are more responsive and accurate, generally, than the big companies. I would still have great confidence in just about any Orion/Oracle combination. We shall, as you say, *shrug* see. You sure? Why do you? I would like to see Oracle at least attempt to hire some of the people around the world who contributed their valuable time to debugging Orion free of charge. NOT ME. I'm not looking for a job with Orionacle. Me either... but I'm not sure if this is your actual gripe. If it is, hey, um, wow... you're over-reacting by a lot, IMHO. --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://adjacency.org/ IT Consultant
Re: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
Joseph B. Ottinger wrote: On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: [...] Greetings, I respectfully request that those carrying on the conspiracy thread of discussion please take it off-list. It has comprised, I estimate, at least 50% of the orion-interest list the past few days. Thanks! Chris Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
Joseph, At 12:57 PM 6/12/01 -0500, you wrote: On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: Sure, I can understand this -- good thing we have orionsupport.com, which isn't affiliated with Ironflare. This is why I've never been willing to advertise anything on orionsupport, and why I'm not directly affiliated in any way with Ironflare - because I want the freedom to some day post something like Orion totally sucks in area XYZ (not mentioning anything like JMS, for example, am I?) without worrying about receiving a warning from the Swedish Mafia. You see, Joseph, it's this kind of humor that makes people think of waking up next to their favorite racehorse's head. Not sure what your point is, here, pardner. After all, I was saying this is why Orionsupport isn't directly affiliated, so that we wouldn't have to worry about that in any case... and then you say something that leads me to believe you took the exact wrong meaning. You've been doing that a lot; this kind of dedication takes a peculiar sort of effort. My point is that some slow people, like me, can't always tell right away when you are kidding (remember A Swedish Idea). Mafia-Godfather I-horsehead in movie director's bed. Get it? The buck stops here sign is on Karl's and Magnus' desk, right? I hope they don't usually ride in the same car together all time. :) Well, I didn't know they HAD desks - I can see Satan doing all his work on a futon for some reason - but at this point, we don't know how much responsibility Oracle has taken. *shrug* We'll see. They may not have desks yet, but they can probably afford to order big, hand-carved, mahogony ones now. I hope so! They deserve them. At any rate, I have a little more information about the deal now than I did; your dire warnings are, IMHO, unfounded. Sure, there are some nasty implications for those poor souls still waiting for Godot^WIronflare to provide Oracle-level support for Orion, but even those are merely implications and not a fomral reality yet. Okay. Somehow, I don't think Karl is going to ever teach me the secret Ironflare handshake. From your previous comment about looking at Oracle, let me cite an example about supporting integrated products. A couple of years ago, I found an error in Adrian Cockroft's book, Sun Performance and Tuning regarding the formulas for shared memory and semaphore settings in etc/system. Of course, Adrian (creator of the VirtualAdrian tools) is a god and I'm just a troll (as someone recently pointed out), but even trolls get lucky now and then. Are you a BLIND troll, that's the real question. [snip, snippety snip snip snip!] BLIND and DUMB. You're slipping, not snipping, Joseph. My point is that the dance between Orion and Oracle could be just as complex. Sure, could be. But isn't. :) I'm not trying to hold some special knowldge over your head, and it's quite possible that what I know is public knowledge, but until I confirm that, I ain't saying. Secret handshake and secret decoder ring... Karl/Magnus have not, apparently, hired the people on the Ironflare side to free them up to address such questions. Just because Oracle has a support infrastucture, call center, help desk, etc, does not mean that Oracle has anyone who can deal with the really tough problems. Doubt THAT - the whole reason they licensed Orion is because they found that they were getting the real tough problems and their lousy infrastructure wasn't set up for it. Not a matter of THEIR SKILL, mind you, but of the original thought that went into their misbegotten app server crap. Maybe so. What about Karl's pledge 6 months ago that hiring the right people was Ironflare's first order of business? They've hired one recently, or so I've heard. Before getting flamed again, I am NOT picking on Orion/Oracle here. I believe orion-interest and orionsupport are more responsive and accurate, generally, than the big companies. I would still have great confidence in just about any Orion/Oracle combination. We shall, as you say, *shrug* see. You sure? Why do you? I have confidence; however, most of my major (Fortune 500) clients have not shown confidence in products where the only two people in the world who understand the guts of it live 8,000 miles away and might get hit by a bolt of lightening at the same time. Something like, Oops, we regret to inform you that we cannot support your $30M startup because the only two people who can answer that question are unavailable. You seem to have inside knowledge about this. Does Oracle (or anyone besides Karl and Magnus) have a copy of the Orion Server source code? I would like to see Oracle at least attempt to hire some of the people around the world who contributed their valuable time to debugging Orion free of charge. NOT ME. I'm not looking for a job with Orionacle. Me either... but I'm not sure if this is your actual gripe. If it is, hey, um, wow... you're over-reacting by a lot,
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
On a different note concerning the Oracle deal: I wasn't at JavaOne, but I've been reading all about it on the web. One news story that I've seen a lot about is Larry Ellison and Bill Coleman's little fight. Oracle has put Orion in the big leagues... I mean, Karl could have produced all sorts of documentation that said Orion is better then Weblogic, but BEA would have paid it no attention. However, when Oracle says Oracle is better then Weblogic, BEA certainly takes notice! I consider this a great victory for Ironflare, the J2EE community, and every single young person hacking away in his garage. This proves it--a few talented and committed developers can accomplish anything they set their minds too. I think Larry Ellison said it best, when, at JavaOne, he said We have thrown out literally all of our old Java code. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations is we had to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. And we, all of us on this list, know what Larry Ellison was really saying... We replaced all our old Java code with the code from a small Swedish company called Ironflare. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations was that, plain and simple, these two Swedish guys are studs, and had managed to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE when we had largely failed internally. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. -LARRY ELLISON CEO, ORACLE Now, that is sweet!
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
Nathan, A lot of what you're saying is true. I acknowledge that Orion is relatively fast and has some great features (like auto-reconfigure), but I recall that Orion used to claim that it was the fastest J2EE product (or something like that), then had to remove that claim from the orionserver.com site (I think BEA challenged the claim). Also, one of the first questions I get asked when recommending software for clients is about support. It's probably the primary reason why major systems do not rely on open products, or semi-open products like Orion. Yes, Karl and Magnus built a fabulous product, but where's the support (documentation, help desk, etc)? I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Jay At 09:32 AM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote: On a different note concerning the Oracle deal: I wasn't at JavaOne, but I've been reading all about it on the web. One news story that I've seen a lot about is Larry Ellison and Bill Coleman's little fight. Oracle has put Orion in the big leagues... I mean, Karl could have produced all sorts of documentation that said Orion is better then Weblogic, but BEA would have paid it no attention. However, when Oracle says Oracle is better then Weblogic, BEA certainly takes notice! I consider this a great victory for Ironflare, the J2EE community, and every single young person hacking away in his garage. This proves it--a few talented and committed developers can accomplish anything they set their minds too. I think Larry Ellison said it best, when, at JavaOne, he said We have thrown out literally all of our old Java code. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations is we had to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. And we, all of us on this list, know what Larry Ellison was really saying... We replaced all our old Java code with the code from a small Swedish company called Ironflare. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations was that, plain and simple, these two Swedish guys are studs, and had managed to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE when we had largely failed internally. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. -LARRY ELLISON CEO, ORACLE Now, that is sweet!
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
J, I am an oracle customer. All you have to do is call support, and they answer questions about orion. They also have good attempt at documentation: http://technet.oracle.com/docs/tech/java/oc4j/htdocs/getstart.htm#1016486 You will have to create an account with otn, but that's pretty easy to do by going to : http://technet.oracle.com/index.html, and clicking the membership link. Its free. Regards, the elephantwalker -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jay Armstrong Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 10:22 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note. Nathan, A lot of what you're saying is true. I acknowledge that Orion is relatively fast and has some great features (like auto-reconfigure), but I recall that Orion used to claim that it was the fastest J2EE product (or something like that), then had to remove that claim from the orionserver.com site (I think BEA challenged the claim). Also, one of the first questions I get asked when recommending software for clients is about support. It's probably the primary reason why major systems do not rely on open products, or semi-open products like Orion. Yes, Karl and Magnus built a fabulous product, but where's the support (documentation, help desk, etc)? I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Jay At 09:32 AM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote: On a different note concerning the Oracle deal: I wasn't at JavaOne, but I've been reading all about it on the web. One news story that I've seen a lot about is Larry Ellison and Bill Coleman's little fight. Oracle has put Orion in the big leagues... I mean, Karl could have produced all sorts of documentation that said Orion is better then Weblogic, but BEA would have paid it no attention. However, when Oracle says Oracle is better then Weblogic, BEA certainly takes notice! I consider this a great victory for Ironflare, the J2EE community, and every single young person hacking away in his garage. This proves it--a few talented and committed developers can accomplish anything they set their minds too. I think Larry Ellison said it best, when, at JavaOne, he said We have thrown out literally all of our old Java code. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations is we had to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. And we, all of us on this list, know what Larry Ellison was really saying... We replaced all our old Java code with the code from a small Swedish company called Ironflare. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations was that, plain and simple, these two Swedish guys are studs, and had managed to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE when we had largely failed internally. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. -LARRY ELLISON CEO, ORACLE Now, that is sweet!
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
If I recall correctly, BEA did not challenge them (Ironflare/Evermind)with any numbers of their own, they just wanted them to remove their BEA reference. That would have appeared to have been just an action by BEA spin doctors and the legal department. So I will be interested when Oracle runs its J2EE container (i.e. Orion) vs BEA. I suspect, by the way, that Oracle will handle its users concerns. They probably have a number of developers who are up-to-snuff on Orion. It remains to be seen, but if a company wants a name-brand, investor-friendly product, I would happily recomend they use Oracle over BEA or WAS - or that they at least bring them in for the running. --- Jay Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nathan, A lot of what you're saying is true. I acknowledge that Orion is relatively fast and has some great features (like auto-reconfigure), but I recall that Orion used to claim that it was the fastest J2EE product (or something like that), then had to remove that claim from the orionserver.com site (I think BEA challenged the claim). Also, one of the first questions I get asked when recommending software for clients is about support. It's probably the primary reason why major systems do not rely on open products, or semi-open products like Orion. Yes, Karl and Magnus built a fabulous product, but where's the support (documentation, help desk, etc)? I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Jay At 09:32 AM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote: On a different note concerning the Oracle deal: I wasn't at JavaOne, but I've been reading all about it on the web. One news story that I've seen a lot about is Larry Ellison and Bill Coleman's little fight. Oracle has put Orion in the big leagues... I mean, Karl could have produced all sorts of documentation that said Orion is better then Weblogic, but BEA would have paid it no attention. However, when Oracle says Oracle is better then Weblogic, BEA certainly takes notice! I consider this a great victory for Ironflare, the J2EE community, and every single young person hacking away in his garage. This proves it--a few talented and committed developers can accomplish anything they set their minds too. I think Larry Ellison said it best, when, at JavaOne, he said We have thrown out literally all of our old Java code. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations is we had to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. And we, all of us on this list, know what Larry Ellison was really saying... We replaced all our old Java code with the code from a small Swedish company called Ironflare. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations was that, plain and simple, these two Swedish guys are studs, and had managed to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE when we had largely failed internally. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. -LARRY ELLISON CEO, ORACLE Now, that is sweet! __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: Nathan, A lot of what you're saying is true. I acknowledge that Orion is relatively fast and has some great features (like auto-reconfigure), but I recall that Orion used to claim that it was the fastest J2EE product (or something like that), then had to remove that claim from the orionserver.com site (I think BEA challenged the claim). No, BEA didn't challenge the claim. BEA refuses anyone (IBM, etc.) to publish performance specs for comparison purposes. The result was that Orion couldn't say We did this in X, and BEA did it in Y. Orion is hardly unique in this. Also, one of the first questions I get asked when recommending software for clients is about support. It's probably the primary reason why major systems do not rely on open products, or semi-open products like Orion. Or Oracle... but wait, that might make the Oracle deal a win for Orion users. Yes, Karl and Magnus built a fabulous product, but where's the support (documentation, help desk, etc)? I've done well without it. I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). And usually if people know your problem, they'll get to it here, too. Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Heh, you haven't LOOKED at Oracle much, have you? They *already* have support networks in place... Jay At 09:32 AM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote: On a different note concerning the Oracle deal: I wasn't at JavaOne, but I've been reading all about it on the web. One news story that I've seen a lot about is Larry Ellison and Bill Coleman's little fight. Oracle has put Orion in the big leagues... I mean, Karl could have produced all sorts of documentation that said Orion is better then Weblogic, but BEA would have paid it no attention. However, when Oracle says Oracle is better then Weblogic, BEA certainly takes notice! I consider this a great victory for Ironflare, the J2EE community, and every single young person hacking away in his garage. This proves it--a few talented and committed developers can accomplish anything they set their minds too. I think Larry Ellison said it best, when, at JavaOne, he said We have thrown out literally all of our old Java code. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations is we had to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. And we, all of us on this list, know what Larry Ellison was really saying... We replaced all our old Java code with the code from a small Swedish company called Ironflare. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations was that, plain and simple, these two Swedish guys are studs, and had managed to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE when we had largely failed internally. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. -LARRY ELLISON CEO, ORACLE Now, that is sweet! --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://adjacency.org/ IT Consultant
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
EW, Great news, seriously. Do you know whether or not the same/similar documentation is or will be available on orion-support.com or orionserver.com? Jay At 10:53 AM 6/11/01 -0700, you wrote: J, I am an oracle customer. All you have to do is call support, and they answer questions about orion. They also have good attempt at documentation: http://technet.oracle.com/docs/tech/java/oc4j/htdocs/getstart.htm#1016486 You will have to create an account with otn, but that's pretty easy to do by going to : http://technet.oracle.com/index.html, and clicking the membership link. Its free. Regards, the elephantwalker -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jay Armstrong Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 10:22 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note. Nathan, A lot of what you're saying is true. I acknowledge that Orion is relatively fast and has some great features (like auto-reconfigure), but I recall that Orion used to claim that it was the fastest J2EE product (or something like that), then had to remove that claim from the orionserver.com site (I think BEA challenged the claim). Also, one of the first questions I get asked when recommending software for clients is about support. It's probably the primary reason why major systems do not rely on open products, or semi-open products like Orion. Yes, Karl and Magnus built a fabulous product, but where's the support (documentation, help desk, etc)? I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Jay At 09:32 AM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote: On a different note concerning the Oracle deal: I wasn't at JavaOne, but I've been reading all about it on the web. One news story that I've seen a lot about is Larry Ellison and Bill Coleman's little fight. Oracle has put Orion in the big leagues... I mean, Karl could have produced all sorts of documentation that said Orion is better then Weblogic, but BEA would have paid it no attention. However, when Oracle says Oracle is better then Weblogic, BEA certainly takes notice! I consider this a great victory for Ironflare, the J2EE community, and every single young person hacking away in his garage. This proves it--a few talented and committed developers can accomplish anything they set their minds too. I think Larry Ellison said it best, when, at JavaOne, he said We have thrown out literally all of our old Java code. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations is we had to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. And we, all of us on this list, know what Larry Ellison was really saying... We replaced all our old Java code with the code from a small Swedish company called Ironflare. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations was that, plain and simple, these two Swedish guys are studs, and had managed to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE when we had largely failed internally. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. -LARRY ELLISON CEO, ORACLE Now, that is sweet!
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
Joseph, Generally, I agree, but... I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). And usually if people know your problem, they'll get to it here, too. Agree. But most major customers avoid semi-open products because of the perception (right or wrong) that they can't purchase support, even if they have money to burn. I have argued that the orion-interest response is generally more accurate (than BEA, IBM Sun) because the big players must hide their embarassing flaws from the competition. This is why I believe Oracle MAY (not for sure! No flames please!) put pressure on Ironflare to be less forthcoming about internal flaws. Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Heh, you haven't LOOKED at Oracle much, have you? They *already* have support networks in place... The buck stops here sign is on Karl's and Magnus' desk, right? I hope they don't usually ride in the same car together all time. :) Stuck in the asylum, Jay At 03:42 PM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote: On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: Nathan, A lot of what you're saying is true. I acknowledge that Orion is relatively fast and has some great features (like auto-reconfigure), but I recall that Orion used to claim that it was the fastest J2EE product (or something like that), then had to remove that claim from the orionserver.com site (I think BEA challenged the claim). No, BEA didn't challenge the claim. BEA refuses anyone (IBM, etc.) to publish performance specs for comparison purposes. The result was that Orion couldn't say We did this in X, and BEA did it in Y. Orion is hardly unique in this. Also, one of the first questions I get asked when recommending software for clients is about support. It's probably the primary reason why major systems do not rely on open products, or semi-open products like Orion. Or Oracle... but wait, that might make the Oracle deal a win for Orion users. Yes, Karl and Magnus built a fabulous product, but where's the support (documentation, help desk, etc)? I've done well without it. I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). And usually if people know your problem, they'll get to it here, too. Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Heh, you haven't LOOKED at Oracle much, have you? They *already* have support networks in place... Jay At 09:32 AM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote: On a different note concerning the Oracle deal: I wasn't at JavaOne, but I've been reading all about it on the web. One news story that I've seen a lot about is Larry Ellison and Bill Coleman's little fight. Oracle has put Orion in the big leagues... I mean, Karl could have produced all sorts of documentation that said Orion is better then Weblogic, but BEA would have paid it no attention. However, when Oracle says Oracle is better then Weblogic, BEA certainly takes notice! I consider this a great victory for Ironflare, the J2EE community, and every single young person hacking away in his garage. This proves it--a few talented and committed developers can accomplish anything they set their minds too. I think Larry Ellison said it best, when, at JavaOne, he said We have thrown out literally all of our old Java code. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations is we had to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. And we, all of us on this list, know what Larry Ellison was really saying... We replaced all our old Java code with the code from a small Swedish company called Ironflare. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations was that, plain and simple, these two Swedish guys are studs, and had managed to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE when we had largely failed internally. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. -LARRY ELLISON CEO, ORACLE Now, that is sweet! --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://adjacency.org/
RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note.
You might also want to look at the following link for how to papers http://otn.oracle.com/products/jdev/content.html Near the bottom you'll see: JDeveloper 3.2 Technical Information HTMLHow To Deploy a BC4J Application to the Oracle9iAS J2EE Container HTMLHow To Develop EJB Session Beans and Deploy Them to the Oracle9iAS J2EE Container HTMLHow To Develop Entity Beans and Deploy Them to the Oracle9iAS J2EE Container HTMLHow To Remotely Debug a Java Servlet on the Oracle9iAS J2EE Container Don -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of elephantwalker Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 11:53 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note. J, I am an oracle customer. All you have to do is call support, and they answer questions about orion. They also have good attempt at documentation: http://technet.oracle.com/docs/tech/java/oc4j/htdocs/getstart.htm#1016486 You will have to create an account with otn, but that's pretty easy to do by going to : http://technet.oracle.com/index.html, and clicking the membership link. Its free. Regards, the elephantwalker -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jay Armstrong Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 10:22 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: Oracle deal gag... but on a different note. Nathan, A lot of what you're saying is true. I acknowledge that Orion is relatively fast and has some great features (like auto-reconfigure), but I recall that Orion used to claim that it was the fastest J2EE product (or something like that), then had to remove that claim from the orionserver.com site (I think BEA challenged the claim). Also, one of the first questions I get asked when recommending software for clients is about support. It's probably the primary reason why major systems do not rely on open products, or semi-open products like Orion. Yes, Karl and Magnus built a fabulous product, but where's the support (documentation, help desk, etc)? I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart, and a dump). Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed? Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support. Jay At 09:32 AM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote: On a different note concerning the Oracle deal: I wasn't at JavaOne, but I've been reading all about it on the web. One news story that I've seen a lot about is Larry Ellison and Bill Coleman's little fight. Oracle has put Orion in the big leagues... I mean, Karl could have produced all sorts of documentation that said Orion is better then Weblogic, but BEA would have paid it no attention. However, when Oracle says Oracle is better then Weblogic, BEA certainly takes notice! I consider this a great victory for Ironflare, the J2EE community, and every single young person hacking away in his garage. This proves it--a few talented and committed developers can accomplish anything they set their minds too. I think Larry Ellison said it best, when, at JavaOne, he said We have thrown out literally all of our old Java code. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations is we had to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. And we, all of us on this list, know what Larry Ellison was really saying... We replaced all our old Java code with the code from a small Swedish company called Ironflare. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE implementations was that, plain and simple, these two Swedish guys are studs, and had managed to build a high performance, scaleable version of J2EE when we had largely failed internally. We think that this is a huge breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single biggest threat to Java, which is performance. -LARRY ELLISON CEO, ORACLE Now, that is sweet!
