RE: [ozmidwifery] question
Hi Bec, Just reading the mail from a few days back and saw your request for info on restless legs. Interestingly it is not just for pregnant women and my husband suffers from it everynow and then. He treats it by taking silicea gel. It cost a bit but you just take a teaspoon a day. Works great for him. The tablets work too but are less effective. Hope this helps. Dierdre B. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jen Semple Sent: Friday, 1 October 2004 12:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] question Hi Bec, I remember someone raising this question ages ago on this list someone recommended the for the Restless Legs Foundation website www.rls.org w/ lots of good info recommendations. If you're interested in reading what was written on the list before on the subject, check out the archives @ http://www.birthinternational.com/mailing/archive.html search under restless leg syndrome, jumpy legs, etc. Cheers, Jen -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rebecca King Sent: Friday, 1 October 2004 8:06 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ozmidwifery] question hi everyone, my name's bec, I'm a student midwife. One of my friends is pregnant and she has what I think is called restless leg syndrome. She says it feels like ants are crawling over her legs all the time and it's driving her crazy! I have not really come across this too much and I haven't heard of any ideas of what may help relieve this for her. I think her midwife suggested maternity stockings may help, any more ideas anyone? Thanks in anticipation, bec king :) -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] ve's
Thanks to the midwives/ students who have replied. I don't think I am asking a question that is disrespectful to women or midwives. I have 2 of my own children and have welcomed the involvement of midiwifery students in my births. I personally don't see VE's as a 'bad or interventialist' but understand your perspectives. I do understand listening to women in labour without a physical examination - I have had 2 homebirths! I had a midwife and a student both times without frequent Ve's. However I personally didn't need that many and didn't see a problem with them in fact I found it comforting to be aware of how far I had come. I do see how they are not appropriate for some women particularly those who have been sexually abused. I also feel that I must learn this skill as is required as a student and nobody that I have asked seems to be able to answer the question between the difference of length and thickness of the cervix. I mean no disrespect to women in trying to understand this but I must because there will be situations that I will be needed to differentiate between the two. Currently I treat them as the same because I don't understand the difference. Thanks Stacey -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] ve's
Stacey: A cervix is long before it has started effacing: that's when it feels almost like it does when non-pregnant: like a nose. First it shortens and may feel like a loose mouth or like a tight mouth: it is still thick but short it will become wafer thin in some women before much dilation starts. Theoretically primips do all their effacing before they start dilating where as a multip will often do both at once. You will hear the term multi os refferring to a cervix that is partially effaced(not long)and dilating ( thick: but stretchy). Reading back over that it is as clear as mud. I just hope it helps. marilyn - Original Message - From: Stacey Wentworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 6:55 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] ve's Thanks to the midwives/ students who have replied. I don't think I am asking a question that is disrespectful to women or midwives. I have 2 of my own children and have welcomed the involvement of midiwifery students in my births. I personally don't see VE's as a 'bad or interventialist' but understand your perspectives. I do understand listening to women in labour without a physical examination - I have had 2 homebirths! I had a midwife and a student both times without frequent Ve's. However I personally didn't need that many and didn't see a problem with them in fact I found it comforting to be aware of how far I had come. I do see how they are not appropriate for some women particularly those who have been sexually abused. I also feel that I must learn this skill as is required as a student and nobody that I have asked seems to be able to answer the question between the difference of length and thickness of the cervix. I mean no disrespect to women in trying to understand this but I must because there will be situations that I will be needed to differentiate between the two. Currently I treat them as the same because I don't understand the difference. Thanks Stacey -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] ve's
Dear Stacey and All What Mary was saying is the same for me In my expereince of women centred birth and understanding of birth in non-medical holistic approach most women do not need any VEs infact a VE can stop a labour. A VE for a midwife should be like a thermometer used to confirm what you already know by looking, listening and being with the woman. There was/is an article in MIDRIS by Michel Odent peeling back the layers which attempts to look backward and explains that VE s were once/ARE an intervention in Natural labour! If midwives truly do support women centred care and birth as a normal life event then they need to look at the physiology and recognise that so much we accept as OK is an intervention! And as we strive to reduce the C/S rate so we should strive to reduce the interventions in a normal life event that our culture of hospital birth has led us to beleive are OK are not necessary and can interfere with the labours of many women. I think that needs to start with recognition that most women even in our culture given back confidence in their bodies hearts and minds can birth safely where they choose and with whom they choose! . This acknowledges that our medicalised childbirth induced fear about mothers and babies results in adrenaline and so most of our women start on the cascade of intervention before they are even pregnant. Then we others (including midwives) with our fear and related words and actions propel them to or over the edge sadly we not or rarely bring them back to what is possible and desirable for the majority a natural powerful birth!! Denise Hynd Never believe that a few caring people can't change the world. For, indeed, they are the only ones who ever have. Margaret Mead - Original Message - From: Stacey Wentworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 9:55 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] ve's Thanks to the midwives/ students who have replied. I don't think I am asking a question that is disrespectful to women or midwives. I have 2 of my own children and have welcomed the involvement of midiwifery students in my births. I personally don't see VE's as a 'bad or interventialist' but understand your perspectives. I do understand listening to women in labour without a physical examination - I have had 2 homebirths! I had a midwife and a student both times without frequent Ve's. However I personally didn't need that many and didn't see a problem with them in fact I found it comforting to be aware of how far I had come. I do see how they are not appropriate for some women particularly those who have been sexually abused. I also feel that I must learn this skill as is required as a student and nobody that I have asked seems to be able to answer the question between the difference of length and thickness of the cervix. I mean no disrespect to women in trying to understand this but I must because there will be situations that I will be needed to differentiate between the two. Currently I treat them as the same because I don't understand the difference. Thanks Stacey -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] VE
I think that Stacey needs to learn ves because regardless of what we ideally want for birth at present times ves are a major aspect in the care of women in labour wards. I would rather a caring midwife do them than anyone else so if you know how to do them then you can maintain your care without a doctor or other midwife coming in to your room. With the high use of synto and epidurals listening is often not enough because they both change everything. This is the reality Stacey will have to face until the perspective of birth changes and women also seek change. I agree with most of the comments that you can manage birth without ves but for the majority of women who at present birth in labour wards it is a rare time for them not to have one. That is not to say we always have to do one but it is also the case that women are taught to expect ves and to worry about their dilation. Ves can sometimes reassure them they are doing okay. In my practice I avoid ves and do believe that you can hear what dilation women are at, but I had an experience when my friend was having a fast third labour after two horrible labours. She did not believe she was in good labour and while I reassured her and explained why I didn't need to do a ves she didn't enjoy this birth and I regret not doing a ve to tell her her dilation. When Stacey is confident with ves then she will be confident in defining her own practice (and defending it). Stacey try holding your hand into a fist fingers curled feeling across the bottom of your fist (little finger end) that is roughly the thickness and note your cant get your finger inwhere your little finger is curled. going up the side is the length both roughly 3cm and 3cm. Women in long or in labour but not active yet often are effacing that is the thickness is going but not dilating and when they do start to dilate often then move quickly. Also just because a woman is maybe 1cm dilated and still long and posterior doesn't mean she wont be birthing in the next hour or so. This is where listening to her is vital especially if she has birthed before and she is telling you she is in good labour or will have it soon etc For positions get a doll and a pelvis and practice heaps as well as figuring out what you would feel on palpation, you can pick up delflexed heads etc by palp but it takes confidence in your palp skills - and time is needed for that. Good luck and dont forget we all started with more queastions than answers - you will get there Belinda -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] ve's
One of my strongest memories from my fourth son's birth was doing a VE on myself whilst reclined on the toilet. I did it mainly because it was my last oppurtunity to feel a dilating cervix. WOW it was amazing, but it was mine to feel. My first son was born in hospital where I had a few VE's, I did then believe I needed to know how I was doing. Next 3 bubs born at home with same Ind Midwife, no VE's by her. I did have a feel with my third son, but by then his big beautiful head was working its way out. When I touched my cervix and felt the circle that was about 4 cm, so clearly and readable, it was amazing. How far dialted I was made no difference, I was an hour into labour and an hour later I was holding my baby boy, that was the measure of my progression. How we dilate has become such a focus for birthing women and maybe more so their carers, its become the yard stick of childbirth. I understand why women think they want/need them, especially when birthing in an environment of the unknown. Sadly most Midwives are not able to work (for lots of reasons) in a model of continuity and women are no doubt asking for Ve's as inspiration or perhaps used with time as the marker to have the intervention. I also see women being told that they don't need to have VEs, but then we expect them to birth with Mids/Obs who need to do them. It can get very confusing for the birthing woman. What do Midwives do in this circumstance and I assume that confidence in understanding the dilation process is an advantage? Which I think is was Stacey is asking? Its questions like this that spread the wisdom learnt, not one teacher but many, cheers Megan R This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] ve's
Hi Stacy, I'm a mid student too, I too have stuggled trying to get my head around various concepts (eg difference b/w legnth thickness). After having many many midwives explain it in different ways, the way that I understand it is that legnth thickness go hand in hand. A long cervix is a thick cervix. As the cervix begins to effaces, the cervical os is taken up it becomes shorter thins out to the point when it's completely effaced, rather than feeling like the tip of your nose, then, pursed lips (soft squishy), then like a thin rim of tissue in active labour. So really legnth thickness is just another discrpition of effacement readiness to labour. In the midwifery-led model that I've spent most of my time in hospital with, usually the only time we do VEs when we find or expect to find a long, thick, closed cervix (eg not having begun to efface) is with inductions (of which many VEs are but one of the many, many interventions that go along with induction). I'm not sure if that discription helps at all (somebody please clarify is you can!). Mayes Midwifery has good diagrams to help visualise. All the best, Jen 3rd year BMid, Melbourne --- Stacey Wentworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks to the midwives/ students who have replied. I don't think I am asking a question that is disrespectful to women or midwives. I have 2 of my own children and have welcomed the involvement of midiwifery students in my births. I personally don't see VE's as a 'bad or interventialist' but understand your perspectives. I do understand listening to women in labour without a physical examination - I have had 2 homebirths! I had a midwife and a student both times without frequent Ve's. However I personally didn't need that many and didn't see a problem with them in fact I found it comforting to be aware of how far I had come. I do see how they are not appropriate for some women particularly those who have been sexually abused. I also feel that I must learn this skill as is required as a student and nobody that I have asked seems to be able to answer the question between the difference of length and thickness of the cervix. I mean no disrespect to women in trying to understand this but I must because there will be situations that I will be needed to differentiate between the two. Currently I treat them as the same because I don't understand the difference. Thanks Stacey Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] ve's
There is a fantastic chapter in Ina May Gasgin's new book about vaginal examinations. I would recommend that you find it and read. It really give some great information and guidance about vaginal examinations. Sally Westbury Homebirth Midwife It takes courage to remain a true advocate for women, challenging authority and sacrificing social and professional acceptance. It takes courage for a woman to choose a caregiver who will truly advocate for and empower her.-Judy Slome Cohain -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, 3 October 2004 9:25 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ozmidwifery] ve's One of my strongest memories from my fourth son's birth was doing a VE on myself whilst reclined on the toilet. I did it mainly because it was my last oppurtunity to feel a dilating cervix. WOW it was amazing, but it was mine to feel. My first son was born in hospital where I had a few VE's, I did then believe I needed to know how I was doing. Next 3 bubs born at home with same Ind Midwife, no VE's by her. I did have a feel with my third son, but by then his big beautiful head was working its way out. When I touched my cervix and felt the circle that was about 4 cm, so clearly and readable, it was amazing. How far dialted I was made no difference, I was an hour into labour and an hour later I was holding my baby boy, that was the measure of my progression. How we dilate has become such a focus for birthing women and maybe more so their carers, its become the yard stick of childbirth. I understand why women think they want/need them, especially when birthing in an environment of the unknown. Sadly most Midwives are not able to work (for lots of reasons) in a model of continuity and women are no doubt asking for Ve's as inspiration or perhaps used with time as the marker to have the intervention. I also see women being told that they don't need to have VEs, but then we expect them to birth with Mids/Obs who need to do them. It can get very confusing for the birthing woman. What do Midwives do in this circumstance and I assume that confidence in understanding the dilation process is an advantage? Which I think is was Stacey is asking? Its questions like this that spread the wisdom learnt, not one teacher but many, cheers Megan R This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] ve's
Yes, well said Megan. What a powerful imagine you've described in my mind of you in labour with your 4th! Thanks for sharing, Jen --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One of my strongest memories from my fourth son's birth was doing a VE on myself whilst reclined on the toilet. I did it mainly because it was my last oppurtunity to feel a dilating cervix. WOW it was amazing, but it was mine to feel. My first son was born in hospital where I had a few VE's, I did then believe I needed to know how I was doing. Next 3 bubs born at home with same Ind Midwife, no VE's by her. I did have a feel with my third son, but by then his big beautiful head was working its way out. When I touched my cervix and felt the circle that was about 4 cm, so clearly and readable, it was amazing. How far dialted I was made no difference, I was an hour into labour and an hour later I was holding my baby boy, that was the measure of my progression. How we dilate has become such a focus for birthing women and maybe more so their carers, its become the yard stick of childbirth. I understand why women think they want/need them, especially when birthing in an environment of the unknown. Sadly most Midwives are not able to work (for lots of reasons) in a model of continuity and women are no doubt asking for Ve's as inspiration or perhaps used with time as the marker to have the intervention. I also see women being told that they don't need to have VEs, but then we expect them to birth with Mids/Obs who need to do them. It can get very confusing for the birthing woman. What do Midwives do in this circumstance and I assume that confidence in understanding the dilation process is an advantage? Which I think is was Stacey is asking? Its questions like this that spread the wisdom learnt, not one teacher but many, cheers Megan R Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] VE
VEs are like perineal suturing and rupturing of membranes. They are a tool in the professional midwife's kit that should be used with caution, judgement, humanity and great respect. They should only be practised by skillfull practitioners who know the theory behind what they are doing, the evidence basis for them, and the ramifications of not doing as well as of doing them. To think you will never have to use them, so therefore should never learn them (like resuscitation) puts women at risk of a bungle. Therefore, as skills that have been part of the midwife's kit bag for millennia, I would suggest ALL midwives should be competent (not merely manually able) to perform VE, ARM, suturing, emergency procedures, waterbirth and so on and so on. We can teach skills, we can encourage learning, but we can only mentor and role-model compassion, judgement and a woman-centred philosophy. Trish Belinda Maier wrote: I think that Stacey needs to learn ves because regardless of what we ideally want for birth at present times ves are a major aspect in the care of women in labour wards. I would rather a caring midwife do them than anyone else so if you know how to do them then you can maintain your care without a doctor or other midwife coming in to your room. With the high use of synto and epidurals listening is often not enough because they both change everything. This is the reality Stacey will have to face until the perspective of birth changes and women also seek change. I agree with most of the comments that you can manage birth without ves but for the majority of women who at present birth in labour wards it is a rare time for them not to have one. That is not to say we always have to do one but it is also the case that women are taught to expect ves and to worry about their dilation. Ves can sometimes reassure them they are doing okay. In my practice I avoid ves and do believe that you can hear what dilation women are at, but I had an experience when my friend was having a fast third labour after two horrible labours. She did not believe she was in good labour and while I reassured her and explained why I didn't need to do a ves she didn't enjoy this birth and I regret not doing a ve to tell her her dilation. When Stacey is confident with ves then she will be confident in defining her own practice (and defending it). Stacey try holding your hand into a fist fingers curled feeling across the bottom of your fist (little finger end) that is roughly the thickness and note your cant get your finger inwhere your little finger is curled. going up the side is the length both roughly 3cm and 3cm. Women in long or in labour but not active yet often are effacing that is the thickness is going but not dilating and when they do start to dilate often then move quickly. Also just because a woman is maybe 1cm dilated and still long and posterior doesn't mean she wont be birthing in the next hour or so. This is where listening to her is vital especially if she has birthed before and she is telling you she is in good labour or will have it soon etc For positions get a doll and a pelvis and practice heaps as well as figuring out what you would feel on palpation, you can pick up delflexed heads etc by palp but it takes confidence in your palp skills - and time is needed for that. Good luck and dont forget we all started with more queastions than answers - you will get there Belinda -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
