Re: [ozmidwifery] face presentation
Perhaps mechanical delivery is not possible, but certainly a mother birthing a baby herself is possible even when the baby is presenting face first. There was an excellent photo diary on the web last year but was removed after a few weeks. I had printed off the photos and they are just beautiful. I guess when a person calls a birth a mechanical delivery they are not going to see many things that happen as nature intended, or is that just my bias? Nikki Macfarlane www.childbirthinternational.com
Re: [ozmidwifery] face presentation
I don't know what mechanically delivered means unless they mean using instruments. However the radmid site has great links to stories and pics of face presentations. J
RE: [ozmidwifery] face presentation
Hi Emily, I believe mento anterior or chin facing mum's pubic bone can birth vaginally. Mento posterior the babe can't come around the curve of the pelvis. Theoretically, at least! Nicole. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of EmilySent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 3:31 PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: [ozmidwifery] face presentation hi im really sorry that i think this has been discussed not to long ago but i had a frustrating incident with a collegue today who told me very confidently that 'face presentations cannot mechanically be delivered.' i told her i was quite sure it wasnt impossible as i had seen one but she said something like 'no they cant. you might like to think they can but they cant.' i have sent her a photo diary of one little chubby face presenting and birthing without a problem but would like some references or comments from others especially if someone has seen one. thanks so much emily Do you Yahoo!?Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
Re: [ozmidwifery] face presentation
what she meant by mechanically was that she thought the babes actually couldnt be born vaginally ie mechanically impossible to fit out ! not referring to instrumental delivery she thought categorically that face presentation was an absolute indication for caesar/forceps. yes it seems people who talk of delivering women and babies really do seem to do that. i wonder how much difference it would take if this language was changed? just simple things like people often say 'im going to deliver a baby' rather than 'im going to help a woman birth/deliver her baby.' simplewords that would presumably make women feel much more incontrol and important inthe whole process, rather than a bystander who is 'delivered' here is that photo diary http://www.birthdiaries.com/diary/face.htm Janet Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know what mechanically delivered means unless they mean using instruments. However the radmid site has great links to stories and pics of face presentations. J Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out!
RE: [ozmidwifery] face presentation
Hi Emily, I have a client who, back home in Wales 3 years ago, delivered a 3.8kg face presentation on the bed while everyone was running around organizing a C/S. Scared the life out of her husband who wasnt expecting a bruised, swollen faced baby to appear. The baby had no problems other than being unable to attach on the breast for a few days due to his swollen lips. Cheers, MM From: owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au [mailto:owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au] On Behalf Of Emily Sent: Tuesday, 7 June 2005 2:37 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] face presentation what she meant by mechanically was that she thought the babes actually couldnt be born vaginally ie mechanically impossible to fit out ! not referring to instrumental delivery she thought categorically that face presentation was an absolute indication for caesar/forceps. yes it seems people who talk of delivering women and babies really do seem to do that. i wonder how much difference it would take if this language was changed? just simple things like people often say 'im going to deliver a baby' rather than 'im going to help a woman birth/deliver her baby.' simplewords that would presumably make women feel much more incontrol and important inthe whole process, rather than a bystander who is 'delivered' here is that photo diary http://www.birthdiaries.com/diary/face.htm Janet Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know what mechanically delivered means unless they mean using instruments. However the radmid site has great links to stories and pics of face presentations. J Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM more. Check it out!
RE: [ozmidwifery] face presentation
This reminds me of a beautiful baby who presented face first at home after lying in an oblique position antenatally. Took me by surprise but it was one of the easiest births I have seen. Definately had a bruised and swollen face but it disappeared in a matter of hours, with only residula bruising around the mouth. Sally ___ NOCC, http://nocc.sourceforge.net -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] Brilliant women on the campaign trail
well done Jenny Gamble and Sally Tracy on Radio National tonite ! you were brilliant Sally-Anne No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.2 - Release Date: 4/06/2005
Re: [ozmidwifery] vulval varices
I recently had a woman who I believe had a vulval varices that I felt on VE prior to birth although at the time I was not exactly aware that that was what I was feeling. After birth she had profuse bleeding from what appeared to be a laceration but I could not explain from the birth. Anyway it kept belleding profusely despite all measures to stop it until I finally insisted on suturing it because I was concerned about what could have been a fatal blood loss if left. It was enough to have me extremely concerned. So I could see how it could happen. Andrea On 06/06/2005, at 8:14 PM, Lindsay Kennedy wrote: x-tad-biggerHi/x-tad-bigger x-tad-biggerI am doing some research into varicose veins for an assignment. According to Foote (1960), it is possible that extensive vulval varices could rupture during birth and cause fatal hemorrhage. Does anyone know anything about this subject? It is the only bit of research I found that said this. But there is very little info on vulval varices at all. /x-tad-bigger x-tad-biggerCheers/x-tad-bigger x-tad-biggerLindsay/x-tad-bigger x-tad-bigger /x-tad-bigger No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.2 - Release Date: 4/06/2005
RE: [ozmidwifery] New to list - Hi
:) Nicola -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barb Glare Chris Bright Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 10:25 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] New to list - Hi Welcome Nicola, Fancy meeting you here! (after meeting you in NSW) Love, Barb -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] gastric washes
Sue Many of us understand your frustrations!! we hope you Hang In there I feel sure you are offereing view and opening windows for many around you Denise Hynd Let us support one another, not just in philosophy but in action, for the sake of freedom for all women to choose exactly how and by whom, if by anyone, our bodies will be handled. - Linda Hes - Original Message - From: Sue Cookson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 6:07 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] gastric washes Hi again and thanks to Robyn and Marilyn for your replies so far, I fully agree that gastric washes are not warranted, but having been faced with babies who receive no breastmilk at all when the mothers choose to artificially feed, I wonder at their different mechanism of clearing a gut full of mucous/blood/mec. Colostrum kick starts all sorts of mechanisms - from mechanical to hormonal etc etc. Really surprises me that there is no formula substitute for colostrum to start these A/F babies off with. That's not to say that all the babies who received gastric washes were a/f, they weren't. Also Marilyn if you talk of babies who are born rapidly, then I guess every c/section baby would fit this category... The mechanised birthing and protocols and the way most midwives just follows things and don't query them really amazes me. One amazed and frustrated student, Sue -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.6.3 - Release Date: 6/06/2005 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] PS. oxytocinon
Where did you see this MM as despite negative encouragement from the midwives syntometrine is used exclusively where I work and we have no problems with establishement of BF? What does it mean by adverse effects? Andrea Q On 06/06/2005, at 7:56 PM, Mary Murphy wrote: x-tad-biggerI was also very surprised to learn that syntometrine has an adverse effect of the establishment of breast feeding. How did I come to miss that after so many years of practice?? Admittedly I rarely use it, but still, I am usually alert to those kind of issues. Perhaps, as I said, we treat them rather casually. MM/x-tad-bigger
Re: [ozmidwifery] face presentation
Hi, I helped a woman give birth some time ago to a baby born face first. I remember flipping though the 'textbook in my brain' until I came to chin to pubes. By then of course baby had presented exactly that way and born normally. 2nd degree tear as head flexed through the peri, but apart from that, no problems. I have been taught that if the face presents the other way, ie face to anus, then the head can't flex under the pubis. Hope this helps, Sue hi im really sorry that i think this has been discussed not to long ago but i had a frustrating incident with a collegue today who told me very confidently that 'face presentations cannot mechanically be delivered.' i told her i was quite sure it wasnt impossible as i had seen one but she said something like 'no they cant. you might like to think they can but they cant.' i have sent her a photo diary of one little chubby face presenting and birthing without a problem but would like some references or comments from others especially if someone has seen one. thanks so much emily Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/spamguard/*http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail/static/protection.html. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] gastric washes
Hi Sue This practice has always astounded me too. Although I will admit to 'doing' a couple over the years- but never ever got any returns so now I refuse to do them if requested and have a discussion with the Paed who requests it or the Midwife who thinks she might just give it a go to clear a mucousy babe. (Wont go into how ineffective a lavage is for the mucousy newborn just now), So if you do see any actual recent evidence based references I'll be truly amazed:) Cheers Alesa -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] PS. oxytocinon
Hi Andrea, it is in the book by Sue Jordan , 2002, Pharmacology for Midwives, published by Palgrave, Hampshire, U.K. chapter 6, pages 143-174. It had a lot to do with side effects of oxytocins. This is one of the main texts we are using in our studies for the Enhanced Role of the Midwife course with the Health Dept W.A. There were no maybes about it. The text is quite clear. As I said I was surprised to read it as it had never been pointed out to me before. The possible adverse effects of both syntocinin syntometrine were surprising too. Cheers, Mary Murphy From: owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au [mailto:owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au] On Behalf Of Andrea Quanchi Sent: Tuesday, 7 June 2005 5:42 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] PS. oxytocinon Where did you see this MM as despite negative encouragement from the midwives syntometrine is used exclusively where I work and we have no problems with establishement of BF? What does it mean by adverse effects? Andrea Q On 06/06/2005, at 7:56 PM, Mary Murphy wrote: I was also very surprised to learn that syntometrine has an adverse effect of the establishment of breast feeding. How did I come to miss that after so many years of practice?? Admittedly I rarely use it, but still, I am usually alert to those kind of issues. Perhaps, as I said, we treat them rather casually. MM
Re: [ozmidwifery] face presentation
Seen several, delivered a few, the last one was a primip with an OP position which converted to a face in 2nd stage (I remember the long ago tutorials on mechanisms of labour and conversion to face is one possible outcome of persistent OP) This primip delivered well with just a small vaginal graze. If mento-anterior, they can deliver vaginally, mento-posterior will not go around the curve. So tell your colleague she needs to revise her mechanisms! We had a face presentation at work yesterday (I was not there) but the baby was 4770kg and it still came out! Sue "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"Edmund Burke - Original Message - From: Emily To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 1:30 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] face presentation hi im really sorry that i think this has been discussed not to long ago but i had a frustrating incident with a collegue today who told me very confidently that 'face presentations cannot mechanically be delivered.' i told her i was quite sure it wasnt impossible as i had seen one but she said something like 'no they cant. you might like to think they can but they cant.' i have sent her a photo diary of one little chubby face presenting and birthing without a problem but would like some references or comments from others especially if someone has seen one. thanks so much emily Do you Yahoo!?Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.4 - Release Date: 6/06/2005
Re: [ozmidwifery] face presentation
a face presentation cannotbirth when the mentum or chin is posterior, unless of course the baby rotates so that the mentum is anterior then depending on the sacrum of the woman, the baby can birth vaginally. It just depends how firmly the baby is in a mentum posterior position. marilyn - Original Message - From: Nikki Macfarlane To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] face presentation Perhaps mechanical delivery is not possible, but certainly a mother birthing a baby herself is possible even when the baby is presenting face first. There was an excellent photo diary on the web last year but was removed after a few weeks. I had printed off the photos and they are just beautiful. I guess when a person calls a birth a mechanical delivery they are not going to see many things that happen as nature intended, or is that just my bias? Nikki Macfarlane www.childbirthinternational.com
Re: [ozmidwifery] face presentation
Having just read the other posts on this - after my reply - I think somepeople are confusing 'mechanical delivery' (presumably meaning instrumental) with 'mechanisms of labour'. Mechanisms refer to the nature of the passage of the baby through the pelvis, and were taught extensively in my student days. They do help one to understand just what is happening with regard to descent, rotation, and advancement of the baby and are different with each type of presentation, OA, OP, breech, face, brow etc. We were taught that mento-posterior absolutely cannot deliver vaginally, but I'm sure a few have managed to get through, small baby in a generous sized pelvis. It would be a difficult vaginal birth though and few would attempt it given a choice. Mento-anterior though is really no harder than OA, but the dimension of the head as it flexes upwards and sweeps the perineum, would be larger than 'normal' and we were taught it was an absolute indication for an episiotomy - that was a while ago and I know better now. The birth I refered to was quite delightful, and as the baby had only extended her head to a face presentation at the last minute, she was not excessively bruised. some I have seen have very severe facial swelling/bruising due to 'forwards' moulding of the face. Actually, I did not know this girl, having just taken over her care when she suddenly started to push - when I saw two little lips appearing, for a moment I thought it was an undiagnosed breech (labia). When I saw the little nose I was much relieved! Regards, Sue PS just home from late shift and had a lovely birth of baby complete in membranes! "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"Edmund Burke - Original Message - From: Emily To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] face presentation what she meant by mechanically was that she thought the babes actually couldnt be born vaginally ie mechanically impossible to fit out ! not referring to instrumental delivery she thought categorically that face presentation was an absolute indication for caesar/forceps. yes it seems people who talk of delivering women and babies really do seem to do that. i wonder how much difference it would take if this language was changed? just simple things like people often say 'im going to deliver a baby' rather than 'im going to help a woman birth/deliver her baby.' simplewords that would presumably make women feel much more incontrol and important inthe whole process, rather than a bystander who is 'delivered' here is that photo diary http://www.birthdiaries.com/diary/face.htm Janet Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know what mechanically delivered means unless they mean using instruments. However the radmid site has great links to stories and pics of face presentations. J Discover Yahoo!Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM more. Check it out! No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.4 - Release Date: 6/06/2005
Re: [ozmidwifery] gastric washes
Hi Sue, Your request reminded me of an incident I had as a new graduate. A very mucousy baby hadn't fed for 6 hours and as per the hospital policy of where I was working I had to do a blood sugar level which came in at 4mmol/l, as I went to reassure mum I was told by my supervisor that the reading was due to the mucous in the tummy and not milk and therefore I needed to do a lavage before tube feeding the baby with some formula otherwise the blood sugar could plummet dangerously. To this day I still can't work the logic out of this and despite much discussion she didn't see my point of view! Research into the much used and abused lavages would be great. cheers Wendy. - Original Message - From: Alesa Koziol [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] gastric washes Hi Sue This practice has always astounded me too. Although I will admit to 'doing' a couple over the years- but never ever got any returns so now I refuse to do them if requested and have a discussion with the Paed who requests it or the Midwife who thinks she might just give it a go to clear a mucousy babe. (Wont go into how ineffective a lavage is for the mucousy newborn just now), So if you do see any actual recent evidence based references I'll be truly amazed:) Cheers Alesa -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] RE:PS. oxytocinon
Andrea, in reply to your questions: ergot alkaloids act on dopamine receptors to suppress prolactin production and lactation . And intravenous ergotamine 500mcgms for management of the third stage gave a statistically significant increase in the number of women supplementing and ceasing breastfeeding by one and four weeks postpartum, mainly because lactation was inadequate for the infants needs. And Midwives need to consider that syntometrine may adversely impact on breastfeeding. When she speaks of side effects of erometrine, we need to remember that combining it with syntocinin doesnt reduce the risk of side effects of the ergometrine alone, just adds on the side effects of syntometrine. We do know that syntocinin alone has a positive effect on lactation in some women. And hypersensitivity responses: anaphylactic shock, weak rapid pulse, pulmonary oedema, dysnoea, broncho spasm in asthmatic women. And Puerperal psychosis may be linked to ergometrine administration. Pge 71. I know that Syntometrine is designed for IMI use, but I have seen it given IV in some hospitals as routine. Pge 173 speaks of the positive effects of active management of the third stage with oxytocics, but recommends syntocinin alone, because there are less side effects eg: less nausea, vomiting, sweating, headache, shortness of breath, chest pain, blood pressure elevation, and bradycardia . Pge 169, mild or moderate diarrhoea and reflex bradycardia and reduced cardiac output, hypertensive crisis and cerebral haemorrhage, postpartum eclamptic fits, raised central venous pressure, coronary artery spasm. And cerebral vasoconstriction may cause sudden severe headache, dizziness, sweating, confusion, retinal detatchment, cerebrovascular accisdent or seizures. Vasoconstricion may affect peripheral circulation (cold hands and feet), occasionally numbness, paraesthesae, pain, weakness or even gangrene This is not particularly talking about IV administration, just the side effects of the action of the drug which is complex. There are also a lot of side effects of oxytocin alone (syntocinon) especially in relation to augmentation or induction. They are too long to quote. There is a website (one of a million) http:/www.drugdigest.org which gave a good, simple, coverage of the contraindications and side effects which should be given to women before they give informed consent for the use of this drug. (Do women give informed consent ? ) This information should not make anyone defensive about their practice, but it is good to be aware of the full implications of drugs we use so often and of the possible side effects we ignore, but for the woman are unpleasant. In the past, women thought that vomiting after the baby was born was a normal part of labour. No one told them it was because of the syntometrine they were routinely given. Cheers, MM
[ozmidwifery] correction
Hi, the page number I gave for oxytocin/puerperal psychosis should be 171 not 71. MM
[ozmidwifery] NUM - Mildura
Dear List Please consider the pasted advert below, placed on behalf of Admin - Mildura Base Hospital. NURSE UNIT MANAGER MATERNITY SERVICES The Mildura Base Hospital is currently seeking a Division 1 Registered Midwife, who has leadership qualities, experience and/or a qualification in management and sound clinical experience to lead the dynamic team in Maternity Services. The position is full-time although part-time applications may be considered. In this senior role you will be an integral member of the management team working closely with the Associate Director of Nursing. Key responsibilities include: Providing leadership, vision and support to clinical staff, ensuring that a high standard of clinical practice is maintained. Project co-ordination including research , quality and EquIP activities. Leading by example, demonstrating flexibility, professionalism and a genuine desire to create and maintain a positive environment. Active management of human and material resources. The successful candidate will be an experienced midwife registered or eligible for registration in Victoria. They will join a management team that is enthusiastic and clinically focused and have the opportunity to develop this role in consultation with the Associate Director of Nursing to reflect their perception of the current needs and future direction of the unit. Proven highly developed communication, clinical, planning and change management skills and the ability to lead and motivate a dedicated team of nurses in a co-operative and supportive manner are essential. This role will appeal to flexible, motivated and dynamic individuals who desire to work as part of a team that will help guide the Nursing Department towards achieving its goals. Mildura is considered the gateway to Australias magnificent outback. Nestled on the banks of the majestic Murray River, the city boasts a cosmopolitan lifestyle of cafes, restaurants and sporting facilities that many only associate with capital cities. As well as offering rewarding career opportunities, Mildura is a growing regional city, readily accessible by road or air from Melbourne and Adelaide. For further details regarding this position, please contact: Ms Simone Heald Associate Director of Nursing Patient Services on (03)50223219 or email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or Ms Sue Thornton, Director of Nursing on (03)50223219 or email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Applications including curriculum vitae and names of 3 professional referees to be forwarded to Mr Don Palazzo, Manger: Human Resources, Mildura Base Hospital, PO Box 620, Mildura, Vic. 3502 (or email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) by Thursday 7th July 2005.
