Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so
People will try and sue for a poor outcome regardless of the info given etc. But, if you have provided them with adequate info, and they have made their choice and you exercise the 'expected' level of skill - their case will be unsuccessful. I've just finished a legal, risk management course and learned a lot. People will sue whatever (and unpredictably sometimes), but you can protect yourself against them being successful. Women and their partners need to take responsibility for their birth experiences, and we should be encouraging them to do so. Rachel From: brendamanning [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 15:27:07 +1000 Whilst I agree totally in theory.. Bad workmen always blame their tools. I mean we are all talking about 35 years exp of 'seeing' births or deliveries here are we not ? I too had a KRF del x 1 was OK afterwards so it isn't a personal bias (mind you, made sure I had the next babies at home !!). Just observation experience. Whatever the instrument, NB, Wrig, Keill it's incidental, whatever the surgery it's incidental, damage happens. Some places don't use Keill anymore because they cause maternal damage, in inexp hands, if they kept using them knowing this, we'd consider them negligent wouldn't we ? Some folks love the Ventouse, some hate it. Some folks love EL C/S, some condemn it. We've all seen horrific outcomes from what we thought ( to all intents purposes appeared) to be NVDs at the time haven't we ? I have actually been present on more than one occasion when an OB has given what I considered (given the time, energy urgency in the situation) to be a very reasonable balanced summary of events with choices, options, rationales, possible sequalae etc the woman her support team have made their choices then.. sued later. Go figure As I say, emotive, subjective stuff all the way isn't it ? With kind regards Brenda Manning www.themidwife.com.au - Original Message - From: Ken WArd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 2:34 PM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Sorry, I too have seen some dreadful injuries, but not with Kielland, and my own experience with the Kielland was okay, no episi and only a very small tear. Which I thought was pretty good considering the huge epises I'd had with the others. It was the Neville Barnes forceps that did the damage, not to me but the baby, and I think it was the stuck shoulders that caused the neck. Some of the worse injuries I have seen have been wriggleys lift outs. Dreadful placement of the blades, although my 2 wriggleys births were fine, no probs with me or the babies. We do need to remember that not all forcep births result in injury, and are sometimes necessary -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of brendamanning Sent: Sunday, 16 October 2005 12:12 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Ken, Your story is a very common one. I think we all saw a good many Keillands Rotations in our day often the dreadful resulting lacerations pain, injury suffering that went along with them for mother baby. I agree with Rachel in that often this was caused by operator error, the Reg 'practising' (foot on the end of the bed stuff, makes me shudder to think about it). Fourth degree tears were not uncommon the long-lasting damage to babies, womens minds, pelvic floors pelvic organs was horrendous. BUT.and I realise this could be construed as inflammatory but it's not intended to be, really !! Perhaps in the age of 'new obstetrics' if women ceased sueing OBs for everything that went wrong then they (the OBs) wouldn't all be resorting to C/S at absolutely any excuse. Really it's a very emotive argument the OBs are damned if they do damned if they don't. Sometimes we midwives are in the same boat !! I'm not defending them overly here, just telling it like it is. The OB is the story below emerges as skilled but he could just as easily have had the arse sued off him for mishandling or something if the outcome had been less favourable couldn't he? With kind regards Brenda Manning www.themidwife.com.au - Original Message - From: Ken WArd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:26 AM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so I have experienced 4 assisted vaginal birth myself. The second was dreadful, and injured the baby, dislocated his neck. Number four was posterior, 2 hrs of no descent in 2nd stage. I could feel she was stuck and tried everything
Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so
Actually repeated studies of medical negligence and why Show those that are not involved in the decision making regardless of the outcome sue they want some answers to their questions even an apology! Those consulted and heard do not sue even when the outcome is not positive!! Denise Hynd Let us support one another, not just in philosophy but in action, for the sake of freedom for all women to choose exactly how and by whom, if by anyone, our bodies will be handled. - Linda Hes - Original Message - From: wump fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so People will try and sue for a poor outcome regardless of the info given etc. But, if you have provided them with adequate info, and they have made their choice and you exercise the 'expected' level of skill - their case will be unsuccessful. I've just finished a legal, risk management course and learned a lot. People will sue whatever (and unpredictably sometimes), but you can protect yourself against them being successful. Women and their partners need to take responsibility for their birth experiences, and we should be encouraging them to do so. Rachel From: brendamanning [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 15:27:07 +1000 Whilst I agree totally in theory.. Bad workmen always blame their tools. I mean we are all talking about 35 years exp of 'seeing' births or deliveries here are we not ? I too had a KRF del x 1 was OK afterwards so it isn't a personal bias (mind you, made sure I had the next babies at home !!). Just observation experience. Whatever the instrument, NB, Wrig, Keill it's incidental, whatever the surgery it's incidental, damage happens. Some places don't use Keill anymore because they cause maternal damage, in inexp hands, if they kept using them knowing this, we'd consider them negligent wouldn't we ? Some folks love the Ventouse, some hate it. Some folks love EL C/S, some condemn it. We've all seen horrific outcomes from what we thought ( to all intents purposes appeared) to be NVDs at the time haven't we ? I have actually been present on more than one occasion when an OB has given what I considered (given the time, energy urgency in the situation) to be a very reasonable balanced summary of events with choices, options, rationales, possible sequalae etc the woman her support team have made their choices then.. sued later. Go figure As I say, emotive, subjective stuff all the way isn't it ? With kind regards Brenda Manning www.themidwife.com.au - Original Message - From: Ken WArd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 2:34 PM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Sorry, I too have seen some dreadful injuries, but not with Kielland, and my own experience with the Kielland was okay, no episi and only a very small tear. Which I thought was pretty good considering the huge epises I'd had with the others. It was the Neville Barnes forceps that did the damage, not to me but the baby, and I think it was the stuck shoulders that caused the neck. Some of the worse injuries I have seen have been wriggleys lift outs. Dreadful placement of the blades, although my 2 wriggleys births were fine, no probs with me or the babies. We do need to remember that not all forcep births result in injury, and are sometimes necessary -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of brendamanning Sent: Sunday, 16 October 2005 12:12 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Ken, Your story is a very common one. I think we all saw a good many Keillands Rotations in our day often the dreadful resulting lacerations pain, injury suffering that went along with them for mother baby. I agree with Rachel in that often this was caused by operator error, the Reg 'practising' (foot on the end of the bed stuff, makes me shudder to think about it). Fourth degree tears were not uncommon the long-lasting damage to babies, womens minds, pelvic floors pelvic organs was horrendous. BUT.and I realise this could be construed as inflammatory but it's not intended to be, really !! Perhaps in the age of 'new obstetrics' if women ceased sueing OBs for everything that went wrong then they (the OBs) wouldn't all be resorting to C/S at absolutely any excuse. Really it's a very emotive argument the OBs are damned if they do damned if they don't. Sometimes we midwives are in the same boat !! I'm not defending them overly here, just
Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so
Just beware the documentation. It is not enough to say that you discussed the pro's and con's of the course of action, you have to write exactly what you said. Cheers Judy --- wump fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: People will try and sue for a poor outcome regardless of the info given etc. But, if you have provided them with adequate info, and they have made their choice and you exercise the 'expected' level of skill - their case will be unsuccessful. I've just finished a legal, risk management course and learned a lot. People will sue whatever (and unpredictably sometimes), but you can protect yourself against them being successful. Women and their partners need to take responsibility for their birth experiences, and we should be encouraging them to do so. Rachel From: brendamanning [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 15:27:07 +1000 Whilst I agree totally in theory.. Bad workmen always blame their tools. I mean we are all talking about 35 years exp of 'seeing' births or deliveries here are we not ? I too had a KRF del x 1 was OK afterwards so it isn't a personal bias (mind you, made sure I had the next babies at home !!). Just observation experience. Whatever the instrument, NB, Wrig, Keill it's incidental, whatever the surgery it's incidental, damage happens. Some places don't use Keill anymore because they cause maternal damage, in inexp hands, if they kept using them knowing this, we'd consider them negligent wouldn't we ? Some folks love the Ventouse, some hate it. Some folks love EL C/S, some condemn it. We've all seen horrific outcomes from what we thought ( to all intents purposes appeared) to be NVDs at the time haven't we ? I have actually been present on more than one occasion when an OB has given what I considered (given the time, energy urgency in the situation) to be a very reasonable balanced summary of events with choices, options, rationales, possible sequalae etc the woman her support team have made their choices then.. sued later. Go figure As I say, emotive, subjective stuff all the way isn't it ? With kind regards Brenda Manning www.themidwife.com.au - Original Message - From: Ken WArd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 2:34 PM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Sorry, I too have seen some dreadful injuries, but not with Kielland, and my own experience with the Kielland was okay, no episi and only a very small tear. Which I thought was pretty good considering the huge epises I'd had with the others. It was the Neville Barnes forceps that did the damage, not to me but the baby, and I think it was the stuck shoulders that caused the neck. Some of the worse injuries I have seen have been wriggleys lift outs. Dreadful placement of the blades, although my 2 wriggleys births were fine, no probs with me or the babies. We do need to remember that not all forcep births result in injury, and are sometimes necessary -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of brendamanning Sent: Sunday, 16 October 2005 12:12 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Ken, Your story is a very common one. I think we all saw a good many Keillands Rotations in our day often the dreadful resulting lacerations pain, injury suffering that went along with them for mother baby. I agree with Rachel in that often this was caused by operator error, the Reg 'practising' (foot on the end of the bed stuff, makes me shudder to think about it). Fourth degree tears were not uncommon the long-lasting damage to babies, womens minds, pelvic floors pelvic organs was horrendous. BUT.and I realise this could be construed as inflammatory but it's not intended to be, really !! Perhaps in the age of 'new obstetrics' if women ceased sueing OBs for everything that went wrong then they (the OBs) wouldn't all be resorting to C/S at absolutely any excuse. Really it's a very emotive argument the OBs are damned if they do damned if they don't. Sometimes we midwives are in the same boat !! I'm not defending them overly here, just telling it like it is. The OB is the story below emerges as skilled but he could just as easily have had the arse sued off him for mishandling or something if the outcome had been less favourable couldn't he? With kind regards Brenda Manning www.themidwife.com.au - Original Message - From: Ken WArd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so
No - of course he didn't!! Sue The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing Edmund Burke - Original Message - From: wump fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 7:23 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so I wonder if he told her that it would be better for her baby if she experienced some labour - even if she then had a c-section. Although I doubt that option would fit with his schedule. I also think that it is a shame that women are missing out on the option of an assisted vaginal birth due to the lack of obs skills. I have observed some fantastically gentle and effective instrumental births by experienced and skilled obs. Including brow presentations manouvered and delivered with intact perineums. Far better than abdominal surgery. Perhaps if the obs in Australia concentrated on their own area (abnormal birth) instead of wasting time in ours (normal birth) they may develop the skills women need them for. Rachel From: Susan Cudlipp [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 22:52:48 +0800 Rachel, you raise an interesting point. One of our obs was talking to a woman in clinic last week, she is 4'9 and baby is posterior and not engaged at 39 weeks (primip) so he was advising her to go straight for C/S - now I do not necessarily agree that she could not deliver - given some time to allow her body to do it's thing so please don't flame me, but his words were that he felt she would have a struggle and that these days it was felt that it is better to have a C/S than a difficult vaginal birth, whereas in past times there was no choice but to attempt vaginal birth. On the plus side, we have had several successful ECV's of late and even have had obs talking women into VBAC Sue The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing Edmund Burke - Original Message - From: wump fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 6:24 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so I wouldn't be too impressed by UK c-section rates. What is more important is the 'normal' birth rate. I worked in a large regional referral unit in the UK (5000 births per year). The Consultant was always bragging to new drs that the c-section rate was around 20%. He used to get rather p**sed off when I interrupted to point out that the normal birth rate for a 'low risk' primip was 49%. The instrumental birth rate was very high. I have noticed here (Queensland public hospital) that the c-section rate is around 30+%. But, women very rarely have instrumental births. Often the c-sections are done at full dilatation and the baby's head has to be dis-impacted from the pelvis. I asked about it (I ask far too many questions), and was told it was because the drs don't have the experience or skill of instrumental births, therefore prefer c-section. Those women that do have instrumental births often end up with 3rd degree tears. I can only speak for the hospitals I have worked in (both public sector), but my observations are the 'normal birth' is higher than the rate in the UK. Rachel From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:12:57 EDT I just wish we had their C/S rate!! Ours is about 5 times that lately. The other week I counted 18 out of 30 women on one ward had had the chop - there were also a few antenates, believe it or not! We're a major tertiary hospital, I know, but they weren't all fulminating P.E.T's, or grade 34 plac. praevias! But don't ya just love some of those threatening stand over tactics by support (now there's a loose term) people demanding you give pain relief? We've had to call security a few times - it can be so distressing for the women and the birth process, eh! GW _ Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters! http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.1/135 - Release Date: 15/10/2005 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. _ Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters
Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so
What about when you feel like giving the drugs to the obstetrician! Maxine - Original Message - From: Ken WArd To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 11:04 AM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so I have given women drugs in labour at their partners demand. Also epidurals and c/s organised because the partner wasn't coping. It is devesting when a woman is labouring well, and her partner, or sometimes her mother, isn't coping and undermines the woman's confidence in her body. I have often felt like giving him the drugs. One feels hopeless and helpless when adverse comments and stressed support people influence the woman. And lets face it, in the hospital setting who has the strongest and personal relationship, and therefore more likely to influence ? -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Gloria LemaySent: Friday, 14 October 2005 5:59 AMTo: Undisclosed-Recipient:;@uniserve.com;;;Subject: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so This is a group that no one has thought to blame the high cesarean rate on. Hmm. Gloria Scotland on Sunday - October 2, 2005Squeamish men pushing wives towards Caesareans RICHARD GRAY HEALTH CORRESPONDENT FRETTING fathers-to-be are fuelling Scotland's soaring Caesarean sectionrate because they do not like to see their pregnant partners in pain,midwives have warned. They claim many worried husbands are afraid of the mess and noise thataccompanies natural childbirth. Instead they are encouraging their wives to give birth at largeconsultant-led hospital units where they can get powerful painkillers andsurgery. But midwives claim these over-protective men are unwittingly causing theirpartners to have unnecessary Caesarean sections and drugs by taking them tothese "baby factories". They say more women would have natural births if they used smallermidwife-run maternity units. The proportion of women choosing to have Caesareans has leapt from 6.2% to9% in the last 10 years with more than 4,600 women choosing to have themajor surgical procedure in 2004. Experts claim the increase in popularity is mainly due to the misconceptionthat Caesareans are a safer and pain-free option to traditional childbirth. But the abdominal surgery can leave mothers in pain for weeks afterwards andthey are prone to getting infections in their wound. The controversy surrounding Caesareans has led to tensions between midwivesand doctors over the best way of providing services to pregnant women. Earlier this year the Royal College of Midwives launched a campaign topromote "normality" in childbirth. Phyllis Winters, a midwifery team leader at Montrose Community MaternityUnit, believes the celebrity trend of opting for Caesareans has helpedcreate the myth that surgery is the easier option. But she believes squeamish husbands have also played a part in the declineof natural childbirth. She will present her claims at a conference organised by the NationalChildbirth Trust (NCT) and the Royal College of Midwives in Dunfermline,Fife, on Thursday. Winters said: "A lot of couples take decisions about childbirth together andmen in particular feel wary about childbirth. "They are frightened about seeing their partner in pain and about what cango wrong. As a result they often prefer to go to the consultant led unitwhere they perceive there is a higher level of care. "Unfortunately there is also a higher level of intervention when it is notneeded. In Montrose less than 8% of the births we deal with at themidwife-led unit get transported to the specialist unit due to complications"Women need more positive role models to have natural births and perhapsthen we will see a change in the way society views what is a natural lifeevent. "Men also have to understand that by going to a midwife-led service they arenot taking a risk." Currently just 63% of all babies born in Scotland are delivered naturally,but midwives claim the vast majority of births using Caesarean sections andinduction should be allowed to happen naturally. Patricia Purton, director of the Royal College of Midwives Scotland, agreedthat fathers-to-be played a significant role in helping women choose theirmethod of birth. She added: "I would go further, as a lot of women's mothers have only everexperienced consultant led services and so that has become the norm as faras they are concerned. "The problem is that often in large hospitals, childbirth is made to fita
Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so I just wish we had their C/S rate!! Ours is about 5 times that lately. The other week I counted 18 out of 30 women on one ward had had the chop - there were also a few antenates, believe it or not! We're a major tertiary hospital, I know, but they weren't all fulminating P.E.T's, or grade 34 plac. praevias! But don't ya just love some of those threatening stand over tactics by support (now there's a loose term) people demanding you give pain relief? We've had to call security a few times - it can be so distressing for the women and the birth process, eh! GW Dear Gaye If midwives provided 1-2-1 care and women actually got to know and trust them your c/s rate would plummet. The partner or support people would also be more likely to trust, and hell what a better outcome and ongoing relationship for the couple and the new family. So wheres the proposal for a caseload program?? Quite frankly I cant believe any woman can birth successfully amongst strangers,as I said on 60 Minutes its like having sex in public (oh a didnt they love that line!) Kind regards Justine
Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so
Rachel, you raise an interesting point. One of our obs was talking to a woman in clinic last week, she is 4'9 and baby is posterior and not engaged at 39 weeks (primip) so he was advising her to go straight for C/S - now I do not necessarily agree that she could not deliver - given some time to allow her body to do it's thing so please don't flame me, but his words were that he felt she would have a struggle and that these days it was felt that it is better to have a C/S than a difficult vaginal birth, whereas in past times there was no choice but to attempt vaginal birth. On the plus side, we have had several successful ECV's of late and even have had obs talking women into VBAC Sue The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing Edmund Burke - Original Message - From: wump fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 6:24 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so I wouldn't be too impressed by UK c-section rates. What is more important is the 'normal' birth rate. I worked in a large regional referral unit in the UK (5000 births per year). The Consultant was always bragging to new drs that the c-section rate was around 20%. He used to get rather p**sed off when I interrupted to point out that the normal birth rate for a 'low risk' primip was 49%. The instrumental birth rate was very high. I have noticed here (Queensland public hospital) that the c-section rate is around 30+%. But, women very rarely have instrumental births. Often the c-sections are done at full dilatation and the baby's head has to be dis-impacted from the pelvis. I asked about it (I ask far too many questions), and was told it was because the drs don't have the experience or skill of instrumental births, therefore prefer c-section. Those women that do have instrumental births often end up with 3rd degree tears. I can only speak for the hospitals I have worked in (both public sector), but my observations are the 'normal birth' is higher than the rate in the UK. Rachel From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:12:57 EDT I just wish we had their C/S rate!! Ours is about 5 times that lately. The other week I counted 18 out of 30 women on one ward had had the chop - there were also a few antenates, believe it or not! We're a major tertiary hospital, I know, but they weren't all fulminating P.E.T's, or grade 34 plac. praevias! But don't ya just love some of those threatening stand over tactics by support (now there's a loose term) people demanding you give pain relief? We've had to call security a few times - it can be so distressing for the women and the birth process, eh! GW _ Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters! http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.1/135 - Release Date: 15/10/2005 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so
Be good to start a trend with that one!!! Judy --- Maxine Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What about when you feel like giving the drugs to the obstetrician! Maxine - Original Message - From: Ken WArd To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 11:04 AM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so I have given women drugs in labour at their partners demand. Also epidurals and c/s organised because the partner wasn't coping. It is devesting when a woman is labouring well, and her partner, or sometimes her mother, isn't coping and undermines the woman's confidence in her body. I have often felt like giving him the drugs. One feels hopeless and helpless when adverse comments and stressed support people influence the woman. And lets face it, in the hospital setting who has the strongest and personal relationship, and therefore more likely to influence ? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gloria Lemay Sent: Friday, 14 October 2005 5:59 AM To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;@uniserve.com;;; Subject: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so This is a group that no one has thought to blame the high cesarean rate on. Hmm. Gloria Scotland on Sunday - October 2, 2005 Squeamish men pushing wives towards Caesareans RICHARD GRAY HEALTH CORRESPONDENT FRETTING fathers-to-be are fuelling Scotland's soaring Caesarean section rate because they do not like to see their pregnant partners in pain, midwives have warned. They claim many worried husbands are afraid of the mess and noise that accompanies natural childbirth. Instead they are encouraging their wives to give birth at large consultant-led hospital units where they can get powerful painkillers and surgery. But midwives claim these over-protective men are unwittingly causing their partners to have unnecessary Caesarean sections and drugs by taking them to these baby factories. They say more women would have natural births if they used smaller midwife-run maternity units. The proportion of women choosing to have Caesareans has leapt from 6.2% to 9% in the last 10 years with more than 4,600 women choosing to have the major surgical procedure in 2004. Experts claim the increase in popularity is mainly due to the misconception that Caesareans are a safer and pain-free option to traditional childbirth. But the abdominal surgery can leave mothers in pain for weeks afterwards and they are prone to getting infections in their wound. The controversy surrounding Caesareans has led to tensions between midwives and doctors over the best way of providing services to pregnant women. Earlier this year the Royal College of Midwives launched a campaign to promote normality in childbirth. Phyllis Winters, a midwifery team leader at Montrose Community Maternity Unit, believes the celebrity trend of opting for Caesareans has helped create the myth that surgery is the easier option. But she believes squeamish husbands have also played a part in the decline of natural childbirth. She will present her claims at a conference organised by the National Childbirth Trust (NCT) and the Royal College of Midwives in Dunfermline, Fife, on Thursday. Winters said: A lot of couples take decisions about childbirth together and men in particular feel wary about childbirth. They are frightened about seeing their partner in pain and about what can go wrong. As a result they often prefer to go to the consultant led unit where they perceive there is a higher level of care. Unfortunately there is also a higher level of intervention when it is not needed. In Montrose less than 8% of the births we deal with at the midwife-led unit get transported to the specialist unit due to complications Women need more positive role models to have natural births and perhaps then we will see a change in the way society views what is a natural life event. Men also have to understand that by going to a midwife-led service they are not taking a risk. Currently just 63% of all babies born in Scotland are delivered naturally, but midwives claim the vast majority of births using Caesarean sections and induction should be allowed to happen naturally. Patricia Purton, director of the Royal College of Midwives Scotland, agreed that fathers-to-be played a significant role in helping women choose their method of birth. She added: I would go further, as a lot of women's mothers have only ever experienced consultant led services and so
Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so
I wonder if he told her that it would be better for her baby if she experienced some labour - even if she then had a c-section. Although I doubt that option would fit with his schedule. I also think that it is a shame that women are missing out on the option of an assisted vaginal birth due to the lack of obs skills. I have observed some fantastically gentle and effective instrumental births by experienced and skilled obs. Including brow presentations manouvered and delivered with intact perineums. Far better than abdominal surgery. Perhaps if the obs in Australia concentrated on their own area (abnormal birth) instead of wasting time in ours (normal birth) they may develop the skills women need them for. Rachel From: Susan Cudlipp [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 22:52:48 +0800 Rachel, you raise an interesting point. One of our obs was talking to a woman in clinic last week, she is 4'9 and baby is posterior and not engaged at 39 weeks (primip) so he was advising her to go straight for C/S - now I do not necessarily agree that she could not deliver - given some time to allow her body to do it's thing so please don't flame me, but his words were that he felt she would have a struggle and that these days it was felt that it is better to have a C/S than a difficult vaginal birth, whereas in past times there was no choice but to attempt vaginal birth. On the plus side, we have had several successful ECV's of late and even have had obs talking women into VBAC Sue The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing Edmund Burke - Original Message - From: wump fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 6:24 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so I wouldn't be too impressed by UK c-section rates. What is more important is the 'normal' birth rate. I worked in a large regional referral unit in the UK (5000 births per year). The Consultant was always bragging to new drs that the c-section rate was around 20%. He used to get rather p**sed off when I interrupted to point out that the normal birth rate for a 'low risk' primip was 49%. The instrumental birth rate was very high. I have noticed here (Queensland public hospital) that the c-section rate is around 30+%. But, women very rarely have instrumental births. Often the c-sections are done at full dilatation and the baby's head has to be dis-impacted from the pelvis. I asked about it (I ask far too many questions), and was told it was because the drs don't have the experience or skill of instrumental births, therefore prefer c-section. Those women that do have instrumental births often end up with 3rd degree tears. I can only speak for the hospitals I have worked in (both public sector), but my observations are the 'normal birth' is higher than the rate in the UK. Rachel From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:12:57 EDT I just wish we had their C/S rate!! Ours is about 5 times that lately. The other week I counted 18 out of 30 women on one ward had had the chop - there were also a few antenates, believe it or not! We're a major tertiary hospital, I know, but they weren't all fulminating P.E.T's, or grade 34 plac. praevias! But don't ya just love some of those threatening stand over tactics by support (now there's a loose term) people demanding you give pain relief? We've had to call security a few times - it can be so distressing for the women and the birth process, eh! GW _ Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters! http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.1/135 - Release Date: 15/10/2005 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. _ Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters! http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so
I have experienced 4 assisted vaginal birth myself. The second was dreadful, and injured the baby, dislocated his neck. Number four was posterior, 2 hrs of no descent in 2nd stage. I could feel she was stuck and tried everything. In the end I demanded an epidural and forceps. Once the doctor rotated her into oa she just about fell out. I saw his a lot in my mid. An op rotated into a oa with forceps and then the mother birthing with no further assistance. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of wump fish Sent: Sunday, 16 October 2005 9:24 AM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so I wonder if he told her that it would be better for her baby if she experienced some labour - even if she then had a c-section. Although I doubt that option would fit with his schedule. I also think that it is a shame that women are missing out on the option of an assisted vaginal birth due to the lack of obs skills. I have observed some fantastically gentle and effective instrumental births by experienced and skilled obs. Including brow presentations manouvered and delivered with intact perineums. Far better than abdominal surgery. Perhaps if the obs in Australia concentrated on their own area (abnormal birth) instead of wasting time in ours (normal birth) they may develop the skills women need them for. Rachel From: Susan Cudlipp [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 22:52:48 +0800 Rachel, you raise an interesting point. One of our obs was talking to a woman in clinic last week, she is 4'9 and baby is posterior and not engaged at 39 weeks (primip) so he was advising her to go straight for C/S - now I do not necessarily agree that she could not deliver - given some time to allow her body to do it's thing so please don't flame me, but his words were that he felt she would have a struggle and that these days it was felt that it is better to have a C/S than a difficult vaginal birth, whereas in past times there was no choice but to attempt vaginal birth. On the plus side, we have had several successful ECV's of late and even have had obs talking women into VBAC Sue The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing Edmund Burke - Original Message - From: wump fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 6:24 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so I wouldn't be too impressed by UK c-section rates. What is more important is the 'normal' birth rate. I worked in a large regional referral unit in the UK (5000 births per year). The Consultant was always bragging to new drs that the c-section rate was around 20%. He used to get rather p**sed off when I interrupted to point out that the normal birth rate for a 'low risk' primip was 49%. The instrumental birth rate was very high. I have noticed here (Queensland public hospital) that the c-section rate is around 30+%. But, women very rarely have instrumental births. Often the c-sections are done at full dilatation and the baby's head has to be dis-impacted from the pelvis. I asked about it (I ask far too many questions), and was told it was because the drs don't have the experience or skill of instrumental births, therefore prefer c-section. Those women that do have instrumental births often end up with 3rd degree tears. I can only speak for the hospitals I have worked in (both public sector), but my observations are the 'normal birth' is higher than the rate in the UK. Rachel From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:12:57 EDT I just wish we had their C/S rate!! Ours is about 5 times that lately. The other week I counted 18 out of 30 women on one ward had had the chop - there were also a few antenates, believe it or not! We're a major tertiary hospital, I know, but they weren't all fulminating P.E.T's, or grade 34 plac. praevias! But don't ya just love some of those threatening stand over tactics by support (now there's a loose term) people demanding you give pain relief? We've had to call security a few times - it can be so distressing for the women and the birth process, eh! GW _ Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters! http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus
Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so
Ken, Your story is a very common one. I think we all saw a good many Keillands Rotations in our day often the dreadful resulting lacerations pain, injury suffering that went along with them for mother baby. I agree with Rachel in that often this was caused by operator error, the Reg 'practising' (foot on the end of the bed stuff, makes me shudder to think about it). Fourth degree tears were not uncommon the long-lasting damage to babies, womens minds, pelvic floors pelvic organs was horrendous. BUT.and I realise this could be construed as inflammatory but it's not intended to be, really !! Perhaps in the age of 'new obstetrics' if women ceased sueing OBs for everything that went wrong then they (the OBs) wouldn't all be resorting to C/S at absolutely any excuse. Really it's a very emotive argument the OBs are damned if they do damned if they don't. Sometimes we midwives are in the same boat !! I'm not defending them overly here, just telling it like it is. The OB is the story below emerges as skilled but he could just as easily have had the arse sued off him for mishandling or something if the outcome had been less favourable couldn't he? With kind regards Brenda Manning www.themidwife.com.au - Original Message - From: Ken WArd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:26 AM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so I have experienced 4 assisted vaginal birth myself. The second was dreadful, and injured the baby, dislocated his neck. Number four was posterior, 2 hrs of no descent in 2nd stage. I could feel she was stuck and tried everything. In the end I demanded an epidural and forceps. Once the doctor rotated her into oa she just about fell out. I saw his a lot in my mid. An op rotated into a oa with forceps and then the mother birthing with no further assistance. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of wump fish Sent: Sunday, 16 October 2005 9:24 AM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so I wonder if he told her that it would be better for her baby if she experienced some labour - even if she then had a c-section. Although I doubt that option would fit with his schedule. I also think that it is a shame that women are missing out on the option of an assisted vaginal birth due to the lack of obs skills. I have observed some fantastically gentle and effective instrumental births by experienced and skilled obs. Including brow presentations manouvered and delivered with intact perineums. Far better than abdominal surgery. Perhaps if the obs in Australia concentrated on their own area (abnormal birth) instead of wasting time in ours (normal birth) they may develop the skills women need them for. Rachel From: Susan Cudlipp [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 22:52:48 +0800 Rachel, you raise an interesting point. One of our obs was talking to a woman in clinic last week, she is 4'9 and baby is posterior and not engaged at 39 weeks (primip) so he was advising her to go straight for C/S - now I do not necessarily agree that she could not deliver - given some time to allow her body to do it's thing so please don't flame me, but his words were that he felt she would have a struggle and that these days it was felt that it is better to have a C/S than a difficult vaginal birth, whereas in past times there was no choice but to attempt vaginal birth. On the plus side, we have had several successful ECV's of late and even have had obs talking women into VBAC Sue The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing Edmund Burke - Original Message - From: wump fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 6:24 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so I wouldn't be too impressed by UK c-section rates. What is more important is the 'normal' birth rate. I worked in a large regional referral unit in the UK (5000 births per year). The Consultant was always bragging to new drs that the c-section rate was around 20%. He used to get rather p**sed off when I interrupted to point out that the normal birth rate for a 'low risk' primip was 49%. The instrumental birth rate was very high. I have noticed here (Queensland public hospital) that the c-section rate is around 30+%. But, women very rarely have instrumental births. Often the c-sections are done at full dilatation and the baby's head has to be dis-impacted from the pelvis. I asked about it (I ask far too many questions), and was told it was because the drs don't have the experience
Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so
It's unlikely that an obs would get sued if the woman had made an informed decision about her birth option. Some women would opt for a 'difficult' forceps birth rather than a c-section. Others would rather have a c-section than an 'easy' ventouse. Obs may find themselves getting sued when a woman experiences complications following an argueably unnecessary c-section at full dilatation when an instrumental delivery was not offered as an option. It's about providing adequate information to women then supporting their decisions and choices. It is their body, their baby, their birth, their risk. Rachel From: brendamanning [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 12:12:25 +1000 Ken, Your story is a very common one. I think we all saw a good many Keillands Rotations in our day often the dreadful resulting lacerations pain, injury suffering that went along with them for mother baby. I agree with Rachel in that often this was caused by operator error, the Reg 'practising' (foot on the end of the bed stuff, makes me shudder to think about it). Fourth degree tears were not uncommon the long-lasting damage to babies, womens minds, pelvic floors pelvic organs was horrendous. BUT.and I realise this could be construed as inflammatory but it's not intended to be, really !! Perhaps in the age of 'new obstetrics' if women ceased sueing OBs for everything that went wrong then they (the OBs) wouldn't all be resorting to C/S at absolutely any excuse. Really it's a very emotive argument the OBs are damned if they do damned if they don't. Sometimes we midwives are in the same boat !! I'm not defending them overly here, just telling it like it is. The OB is the story below emerges as skilled but he could just as easily have had the arse sued off him for mishandling or something if the outcome had been less favourable couldn't he? With kind regards Brenda Manning www.themidwife.com.au - Original Message - From: Ken WArd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:26 AM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so I have experienced 4 assisted vaginal birth myself. The second was dreadful, and injured the baby, dislocated his neck. Number four was posterior, 2 hrs of no descent in 2nd stage. I could feel she was stuck and tried everything. In the end I demanded an epidural and forceps. Once the doctor rotated her into oa she just about fell out. I saw his a lot in my mid. An op rotated into a oa with forceps and then the mother birthing with no further assistance. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of wump fish Sent: Sunday, 16 October 2005 9:24 AM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so I wonder if he told her that it would be better for her baby if she experienced some labour - even if she then had a c-section. Although I doubt that option would fit with his schedule. I also think that it is a shame that women are missing out on the option of an assisted vaginal birth due to the lack of obs skills. I have observed some fantastically gentle and effective instrumental births by experienced and skilled obs. Including brow presentations manouvered and delivered with intact perineums. Far better than abdominal surgery. Perhaps if the obs in Australia concentrated on their own area (abnormal birth) instead of wasting time in ours (normal birth) they may develop the skills women need them for. Rachel From: Susan Cudlipp [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 22:52:48 +0800 Rachel, you raise an interesting point. One of our obs was talking to a woman in clinic last week, she is 4'9 and baby is posterior and not engaged at 39 weeks (primip) so he was advising her to go straight for C/S - now I do not necessarily agree that she could not deliver - given some time to allow her body to do it's thing so please don't flame me, but his words were that he felt she would have a struggle and that these days it was felt that it is better to have a C/S than a difficult vaginal birth, whereas in past times there was no choice but to attempt vaginal birth. On the plus side, we have had several successful ECV's of late and even have had obs talking women into VBAC Sue The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing Edmund Burke - Original Message - From: wump fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 6:24 AM Subject: Re
RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so
Sorry, I too have seen some dreadful injuries, but not with Kielland, and my own experience with the Kielland was okay, no episi and only a very small tear. Which I thought was pretty good considering the huge epises I'd had with the others. It was the Neville Barnes forceps that did the damage, not to me but the baby, and I think it was the stuck shoulders that caused the neck. Some of the worse injuries I have seen have been wriggleys lift outs. Dreadful placement of the blades, although my 2 wriggleys births were fine, no probs with me or the babies. We do need to remember that not all forcep births result in injury, and are sometimes necessary -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of brendamanning Sent: Sunday, 16 October 2005 12:12 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Ken, Your story is a very common one. I think we all saw a good many Keillands Rotations in our day often the dreadful resulting lacerations pain, injury suffering that went along with them for mother baby. I agree with Rachel in that often this was caused by operator error, the Reg 'practising' (foot on the end of the bed stuff, makes me shudder to think about it). Fourth degree tears were not uncommon the long-lasting damage to babies, womens minds, pelvic floors pelvic organs was horrendous. BUT.and I realise this could be construed as inflammatory but it's not intended to be, really !! Perhaps in the age of 'new obstetrics' if women ceased sueing OBs for everything that went wrong then they (the OBs) wouldn't all be resorting to C/S at absolutely any excuse. Really it's a very emotive argument the OBs are damned if they do damned if they don't. Sometimes we midwives are in the same boat !! I'm not defending them overly here, just telling it like it is. The OB is the story below emerges as skilled but he could just as easily have had the arse sued off him for mishandling or something if the outcome had been less favourable couldn't he? With kind regards Brenda Manning www.themidwife.com.au - Original Message - From: Ken WArd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:26 AM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so I have experienced 4 assisted vaginal birth myself. The second was dreadful, and injured the baby, dislocated his neck. Number four was posterior, 2 hrs of no descent in 2nd stage. I could feel she was stuck and tried everything. In the end I demanded an epidural and forceps. Once the doctor rotated her into oa she just about fell out. I saw his a lot in my mid. An op rotated into a oa with forceps and then the mother birthing with no further assistance. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of wump fish Sent: Sunday, 16 October 2005 9:24 AM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so I wonder if he told her that it would be better for her baby if she experienced some labour - even if she then had a c-section. Although I doubt that option would fit with his schedule. I also think that it is a shame that women are missing out on the option of an assisted vaginal birth due to the lack of obs skills. I have observed some fantastically gentle and effective instrumental births by experienced and skilled obs. Including brow presentations manouvered and delivered with intact perineums. Far better than abdominal surgery. Perhaps if the obs in Australia concentrated on their own area (abnormal birth) instead of wasting time in ours (normal birth) they may develop the skills women need them for. Rachel From: Susan Cudlipp [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 22:52:48 +0800 Rachel, you raise an interesting point. One of our obs was talking to a woman in clinic last week, she is 4'9 and baby is posterior and not engaged at 39 weeks (primip) so he was advising her to go straight for C/S - now I do not necessarily agree that she could not deliver - given some time to allow her body to do it's thing so please don't flame me, but his words were that he felt she would have a struggle and that these days it was felt that it is better to have a C/S than a difficult vaginal birth, whereas in past times there was no choice but to attempt vaginal birth. On the plus side, we have had several successful ECV's of late and even have had obs talking women into VBAC Sue The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing Edmund Burke - Original Message - From: wump fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so
Actually the safest option all up, as mentioned previously , is to... ...buy a puppy !! With kind regards Brenda Manning www.themidwife.com.au - Original Message - From: Ken WArd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 2:34 PM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Sorry, I too have seen some dreadful injuries, but not with Kielland, and my own experience with the Kielland was okay, no episi and only a very small tear. Which I thought was pretty good considering the huge epises I'd had with the others. It was the Neville Barnes forceps that did the damage, not to me but the baby, and I think it was the stuck shoulders that caused the neck. Some of the worse injuries I have seen have been wriggleys lift outs. Dreadful placement of the blades, although my 2 wriggleys births were fine, no probs with me or the babies. We do need to remember that not all forcep births result in injury, and are sometimes necessary -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of brendamanning Sent: Sunday, 16 October 2005 12:12 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Ken, Your story is a very common one. I think we all saw a good many Keillands Rotations in our day often the dreadful resulting lacerations pain, injury suffering that went along with them for mother baby. I agree with Rachel in that often this was caused by operator error, the Reg 'practising' (foot on the end of the bed stuff, makes me shudder to think about it). Fourth degree tears were not uncommon the long-lasting damage to babies, womens minds, pelvic floors pelvic organs was horrendous. BUT.and I realise this could be construed as inflammatory but it's not intended to be, really !! Perhaps in the age of 'new obstetrics' if women ceased sueing OBs for everything that went wrong then they (the OBs) wouldn't all be resorting to C/S at absolutely any excuse. Really it's a very emotive argument the OBs are damned if they do damned if they don't. Sometimes we midwives are in the same boat !! I'm not defending them overly here, just telling it like it is. The OB is the story below emerges as skilled but he could just as easily have had the arse sued off him for mishandling or something if the outcome had been less favourable couldn't he? With kind regards Brenda Manning www.themidwife.com.au - Original Message - From: Ken WArd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:26 AM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so I have experienced 4 assisted vaginal birth myself. The second was dreadful, and injured the baby, dislocated his neck. Number four was posterior, 2 hrs of no descent in 2nd stage. I could feel she was stuck and tried everything. In the end I demanded an epidural and forceps. Once the doctor rotated her into oa she just about fell out. I saw his a lot in my mid. An op rotated into a oa with forceps and then the mother birthing with no further assistance. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of wump fish Sent: Sunday, 16 October 2005 9:24 AM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so I wonder if he told her that it would be better for her baby if she experienced some labour - even if she then had a c-section. Although I doubt that option would fit with his schedule. I also think that it is a shame that women are missing out on the option of an assisted vaginal birth due to the lack of obs skills. I have observed some fantastically gentle and effective instrumental births by experienced and skilled obs. Including brow presentations manouvered and delivered with intact perineums. Far better than abdominal surgery. Perhaps if the obs in Australia concentrated on their own area (abnormal birth) instead of wasting time in ours (normal birth) they may develop the skills women need them for. Rachel From: Susan Cudlipp [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 22:52:48 +0800 Rachel, you raise an interesting point. One of our obs was talking to a woman in clinic last week, she is 4'9 and baby is posterior and not engaged at 39 weeks (primip) so he was advising her to go straight for C/S - now I do not necessarily agree that she could not deliver - given some time to allow her body to do it's thing so please don't flame me, but his words were that he felt she would have a struggle and that these days it was felt that it is better to have a C/S than a difficult vaginal birth
Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so
Rachel, I wouldn't call that unprofessional, just lateral thinking !! Adapting to the situation at hand, well done yourself. Kind regards Brenda Manning www.themidwife.com.au - Original Message - From: wump fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 3:45 PM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so It is very frustrating when a woman is labouring really well and her birth partners are counter-acting her state of mind. Some get quite annoyed that you are not responding to her noises by giving her drugs to make her quiet and easier to watch. I have actually given a dad the entonox once during a waterbirth. The woman was coping fantastically and vocally during her contractions, relaxed in between. Every contraction he would freak out and ask me to help her, then hang his head in his hands. He was s stressed out and I couldn't talk him down. In the end I handed him the entonox and told him it would do him more good than her. It worked! He chilled out and we all had a good laugh about it. Probably highly unprofessional! Rachel From: Ken WArd [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:04:10 +1000 I have given women drugs in labour at their partners demand. Also epidurals and c/s organised because the partner wasn't coping. It is devesting when a woman is labouring well, and her partner, or sometimes her mother, isn't coping and undermines the woman's confidence in her body. I have often felt like giving him the drugs. One feels hopeless and helpless when adverse comments and stressed support people influence the woman. And lets face it, in the hospital setting who has the strongest and personal relationship, and therefore more likely to influence ? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gloria Lemay Sent: Friday, 14 October 2005 5:59 AM To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;@uniserve.com;;; Subject: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so This is a group that no one has thought to blame the high cesarean rate on. Hmm. Gloria Scotland on Sunday - October 2, 2005 Squeamish men pushing wives towards Caesareans RICHARD GRAY HEALTH CORRESPONDENT FRETTING fathers-to-be are fuelling Scotland's soaring Caesarean section rate because they do not like to see their pregnant partners in pain, midwives have warned. They claim many worried husbands are afraid of the mess and noise that accompanies natural childbirth. Instead they are encouraging their wives to give birth at large consultant-led hospital units where they can get powerful painkillers and surgery. But midwives claim these over-protective men are unwittingly causing their partners to have unnecessary Caesarean sections and drugs by taking them to these baby factories. They say more women would have natural births if they used smaller midwife-run maternity units. The proportion of women choosing to have Caesareans has leapt from 6.2% to 9% in the last 10 years with more than 4,600 women choosing to have the major surgical procedure in 2004. Experts claim the increase in popularity is mainly due to the misconception that Caesareans are a safer and pain-free option to traditional childbirth. But the abdominal surgery can leave mothers in pain for weeks afterwards and they are prone to getting infections in their wound. The controversy surrounding Caesareans has led to tensions between midwives and doctors over the best way of providing services to pregnant women. Earlier this year the Royal College of Midwives launched a campaign to promote normality in childbirth. Phyllis Winters, a midwifery team leader at Montrose Community Maternity Unit, believes the celebrity trend of opting for Caesareans has helped create the myth that surgery is the easier option. But she believes squeamish husbands have also played a part in the decline of natural childbirth. She will present her claims at a conference organised by the National Childbirth Trust (NCT) and the Royal College of Midwives in Dunfermline, Fife, on Thursday. Winters said: A lot of couples take decisions about childbirth together and men in particular feel wary about childbirth. They are frightened about seeing their partner in pain and about what can go wrong. As a result they often prefer to go to the consultant led unit where they perceive there is a higher level of care. Unfortunately there is also a higher level of intervention when it is not needed. In Montrose less than 8% of the births we deal with at the midwife-led unit get transported to the specialist unit due to complications Women
RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so
Great thinking. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of brendamanning Sent: Friday, 14 October 2005 5:11 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Rachel, I wouldn't call that unprofessional, just lateral thinking !! Adapting to the situation at hand, well done yourself. Kind regards Brenda Manning www.themidwife.com.au - Original Message - From: wump fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 3:45 PM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so It is very frustrating when a woman is labouring really well and her birth partners are counter-acting her state of mind. Some get quite annoyed that you are not responding to her noises by giving her drugs to make her quiet and easier to watch. I have actually given a dad the entonox once during a waterbirth. The woman was coping fantastically and vocally during her contractions, relaxed in between. Every contraction he would freak out and ask me to help her, then hang his head in his hands. He was s stressed out and I couldn't talk him down. In the end I handed him the entonox and told him it would do him more good than her. It worked! He chilled out and we all had a good laugh about it. Probably highly unprofessional! Rachel From: Ken WArd [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:04:10 +1000 I have given women drugs in labour at their partners demand. Also epidurals and c/s organised because the partner wasn't coping. It is devesting when a woman is labouring well, and her partner, or sometimes her mother, isn't coping and undermines the woman's confidence in her body. I have often felt like giving him the drugs. One feels hopeless and helpless when adverse comments and stressed support people influence the woman. And lets face it, in the hospital setting who has the strongest and personal relationship, and therefore more likely to influence ? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gloria Lemay Sent: Friday, 14 October 2005 5:59 AM To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;@uniserve.com;;; Subject: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so This is a group that no one has thought to blame the high cesarean rate on. Hmm. Gloria Scotland on Sunday - October 2, 2005 Squeamish men pushing wives towards Caesareans RICHARD GRAY HEALTH CORRESPONDENT FRETTING fathers-to-be are fuelling Scotland's soaring Caesarean section rate because they do not like to see their pregnant partners in pain, midwives have warned. They claim many worried husbands are afraid of the mess and noise that accompanies natural childbirth. Instead they are encouraging their wives to give birth at large consultant-led hospital units where they can get powerful painkillers and surgery. But midwives claim these over-protective men are unwittingly causing their partners to have unnecessary Caesarean sections and drugs by taking them to these baby factories. They say more women would have natural births if they used smaller midwife-run maternity units. The proportion of women choosing to have Caesareans has leapt from 6.2% to 9% in the last 10 years with more than 4,600 women choosing to have the major surgical procedure in 2004. Experts claim the increase in popularity is mainly due to the misconception that Caesareans are a safer and pain-free option to traditional childbirth. But the abdominal surgery can leave mothers in pain for weeks afterwards and they are prone to getting infections in their wound. The controversy surrounding Caesareans has led to tensions between midwives and doctors over the best way of providing services to pregnant women. Earlier this year the Royal College of Midwives launched a campaign to promote normality in childbirth. Phyllis Winters, a midwifery team leader at Montrose Community Maternity Unit, believes the celebrity trend of opting for Caesareans has helped create the myth that surgery is the easier option. But she believes squeamish husbands have also played a part in the decline of natural childbirth. She will present her claims at a conference organised by the National Childbirth Trust (NCT) and the Royal College of Midwives in Dunfermline, Fife, on Thursday. Winters said: A lot of couples take decisions about childbirth together and men in particular feel wary about childbirth. They are frightened about seeing their partner in pain and about what can go wrong. As a result they often prefer to go to the consultant
Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so
I just wish we had their C/S rate!! Ours is about 5 times that lately. The other week I counted 18 out of 30 women on one ward had had the chop - there were also a few antenates, believe it or not! We're a major tertiary hospital, I know, but they weren't all fulminating P.E.T's, or grade 34 plac. praevias! But don't ya just love some of those threatening stand over tactics by "support" (now there's a loose term) people demanding you give pain relief? We've had to call security a few times - it can be so distressing for the women and the birth process, eh! GW
Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so
I wouldn't be too impressed by UK c-section rates. What is more important is the 'normal' birth rate. I worked in a large regional referral unit in the UK (5000 births per year). The Consultant was always bragging to new drs that the c-section rate was around 20%. He used to get rather p**sed off when I interrupted to point out that the normal birth rate for a 'low risk' primip was 49%. The instrumental birth rate was very high. I have noticed here (Queensland public hospital) that the c-section rate is around 30+%. But, women very rarely have instrumental births. Often the c-sections are done at full dilatation and the baby's head has to be dis-impacted from the pelvis. I asked about it (I ask far too many questions), and was told it was because the drs don't have the experience or skill of instrumental births, therefore prefer c-section. Those women that do have instrumental births often end up with 3rd degree tears. I can only speak for the hospitals I have worked in (both public sector), but my observations are the 'normal birth' is higher than the rate in the UK. Rachel From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:12:57 EDT I just wish we had their C/S rate!! Ours is about 5 times that lately. The other week I counted 18 out of 30 women on one ward had had the chop - there were also a few antenates, believe it or not! We're a major tertiary hospital, I know, but they weren't all fulminating P.E.T's, or grade 34 plac. praevias! But don't ya just love some of those threatening stand over tactics by support (now there's a loose term) people demanding you give pain relief? We've had to call security a few times - it can be so distressing for the women and the birth process, eh! GW _ Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters! http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so
This is a group that no one has thought to blame the high cesarean rate on. Hmm. Gloria Scotland on Sunday - October 2, 2005Squeamish men pushing wives towards Caesareans RICHARD GRAY HEALTH CORRESPONDENT FRETTING fathers-to-be are fuelling Scotland's soaring Caesarean sectionrate because they do not like to see their pregnant partners in pain,midwives have warned. They claim many worried husbands are afraid of the mess and noise thataccompanies natural childbirth. Instead they are encouraging their wives to give birth at largeconsultant-led hospital units where they can get powerful painkillers andsurgery. But midwives claim these over-protective men are unwittingly causing theirpartners to have unnecessary Caesarean sections and drugs by taking them tothese "baby factories". They say more women would have natural births if they used smallermidwife-run maternity units. The proportion of women choosing to have Caesareans has leapt from 6.2% to9% in the last 10 years with more than 4,600 women choosing to have themajor surgical procedure in 2004. Experts claim the increase in popularity is mainly due to the misconceptionthat Caesareans are a safer and pain-free option to traditional childbirth. But the abdominal surgery can leave mothers in pain for weeks afterwards andthey are prone to getting infections in their wound. The controversy surrounding Caesareans has led to tensions between midwivesand doctors over the best way of providing services to pregnant women. Earlier this year the Royal College of Midwives launched a campaign topromote "normality" in childbirth. Phyllis Winters, a midwifery team leader at Montrose Community MaternityUnit, believes the celebrity trend of opting for Caesareans has helpedcreate the myth that surgery is the easier option. But she believes squeamish husbands have also played a part in the declineof natural childbirth. She will present her claims at a conference organised by the NationalChildbirth Trust (NCT) and the Royal College of Midwives in Dunfermline,Fife, on Thursday. Winters said: "A lot of couples take decisions about childbirth together andmen in particular feel wary about childbirth. "They are frightened about seeing their partner in pain and about what cango wrong. As a result they often prefer to go to the consultant led unitwhere they perceive there is a higher level of care. "Unfortunately there is also a higher level of intervention when it is notneeded. In Montrose less than 8% of the births we deal with at themidwife-led unit get transported to the specialist unit due to complications"Women need more positive role models to have natural births and perhapsthen we will see a change in the way society views what is a natural lifeevent. "Men also have to understand that by going to a midwife-led service they arenot taking a risk." Currently just 63% of all babies born in Scotland are delivered naturally,but midwives claim the vast majority of births using Caesarean sections andinduction should be allowed to happen naturally. Patricia Purton, director of the Royal College of Midwives Scotland, agreedthat fathers-to-be played a significant role in helping women choose theirmethod of birth. She added: "I would go further, as a lot of women's mothers have only everexperienced consultant led services and so that has become the norm as faras they are concerned. "The problem is that often in large hospitals, childbirth is made to fitaround the service rather than letting nature take its course and fittingthe service around the labour." A survey of 800 new fathers carried out four years ago by parental supportgroup Fathers Direct and the NCT revealed many of the anxieties faced by newfathers when their partners give birth. It found nearly a third of men felt powerless during the childbirth processwhile most said it was difficult to see their partners in pain and beingunable to help. A third also said that they felt ill-informed about thechoices couples faced during pregnancy. It said that many men wanted a more active role in the delivery process Shona Gore, an antenatal tutor with the NCT, said: "Men are often pushedinto the role of the protector during a pregnancy and it is only naturalthat they want the best for their partners. "At the start of my courses almost all of the men want to go down theconsultant led route as it appears to be the safer option, but one of theaims of our classes is to give couples time to reflect on the decisions theyface. "There is a culture in this country that hospital is the safest place to be,but this attitude is now slowly changing, particularly with fears about MRSA" But Jack O'Sullivan, from Fathers' Direct, said it was unfair to blame highCaesarean rates on men. He said: "Fathers play a vital role in the decision-making process ofchildbirth and they are naturally concerned about their partners' wellbeing."But often they are relying too much on their
RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so
I have given women drugs in labour at their partners demand. Also epidurals and c/s organised because the partner wasn't coping. It is devesting when a woman is labouring well, and her partner, or sometimes her mother, isn't coping and undermines the woman's confidence in her body. I have often felt like giving him the drugs. One feels hopeless and helpless when adverse comments and stressed support people influence the woman. And lets face it, in the hospital setting who has the strongest and personal relationship, and therefore more likely to influence ? -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Gloria LemaySent: Friday, 14 October 2005 5:59 AMTo: Undisclosed-Recipient:;@uniserve.com;;;Subject: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so This is a group that no one has thought to blame the high cesarean rate on. Hmm. Gloria Scotland on Sunday - October 2, 2005Squeamish men pushing wives towards Caesareans RICHARD GRAY HEALTH CORRESPONDENT FRETTING fathers-to-be are fuelling Scotland's soaring Caesarean sectionrate because they do not like to see their pregnant partners in pain,midwives have warned. They claim many worried husbands are afraid of the mess and noise thataccompanies natural childbirth. Instead they are encouraging their wives to give birth at largeconsultant-led hospital units where they can get powerful painkillers andsurgery. But midwives claim these over-protective men are unwittingly causing theirpartners to have unnecessary Caesarean sections and drugs by taking them tothese "baby factories". They say more women would have natural births if they used smallermidwife-run maternity units. The proportion of women choosing to have Caesareans has leapt from 6.2% to9% in the last 10 years with more than 4,600 women choosing to have themajor surgical procedure in 2004. Experts claim the increase in popularity is mainly due to the misconceptionthat Caesareans are a safer and pain-free option to traditional childbirth. But the abdominal surgery can leave mothers in pain for weeks afterwards andthey are prone to getting infections in their wound. The controversy surrounding Caesareans has led to tensions between midwivesand doctors over the best way of providing services to pregnant women. Earlier this year the Royal College of Midwives launched a campaign topromote "normality" in childbirth. Phyllis Winters, a midwifery team leader at Montrose Community MaternityUnit, believes the celebrity trend of opting for Caesareans has helpedcreate the myth that surgery is the easier option. But she believes squeamish husbands have also played a part in the declineof natural childbirth. She will present her claims at a conference organised by the NationalChildbirth Trust (NCT) and the Royal College of Midwives in Dunfermline,Fife, on Thursday. Winters said: "A lot of couples take decisions about childbirth together andmen in particular feel wary about childbirth. "They are frightened about seeing their partner in pain and about what cango wrong. As a result they often prefer to go to the consultant led unitwhere they perceive there is a higher level of care. "Unfortunately there is also a higher level of intervention when it is notneeded. In Montrose less than 8% of the births we deal with at themidwife-led unit get transported to the specialist unit due to complications"Women need more positive role models to have natural births and perhapsthen we will see a change in the way society views what is a natural lifeevent. "Men also have to understand that by going to a midwife-led service they arenot taking a risk." Currently just 63% of all babies born in Scotland are delivered naturally,but midwives claim the vast majority of births using Caesarean sections andinduction should be allowed to happen naturally. Patricia Purton, director of the Royal College of Midwives Scotland, agreedthat fathers-to-be played a significant role in helping women choose theirmethod of birth. She added: "I would go further, as a lot of women's mothers have only everexperienced consultant led services and so that has become the norm as faras they are concerned. "The problem is that often in large hospitals, childbirth is made to fitaround the service rather than letting nature take its course and fittingthe service around the labour." A survey of 800 new fathers carried out four years ago by parental supportgroup Fathers Direct and the NCT revealed many of the anxieties faced by newfathers when their partners give birth. It found nearly a third of men felt powerless during the childbirth processwhile most said it was difficult to see their partners in pain and beingunabl
RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so
It is very frustrating when a woman is labouring really well and her birth partners are counter-acting her state of mind. Some get quite annoyed that you are not responding to her noises by giving her drugs to make her quiet and easier to watch. I have actually given a dad the entonox once during a waterbirth. The woman was coping fantastically and vocally during her contractions, relaxed in between. Every contraction he would freak out and ask me to help her, then hang his head in his hands. He was s stressed out and I couldn't talk him down. In the end I handed him the entonox and told him it would do him more good than her. It worked! He chilled out and we all had a good laugh about it. Probably highly unprofessional! Rachel From: Ken WArd [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:04:10 +1000 I have given women drugs in labour at their partners demand. Also epidurals and c/s organised because the partner wasn't coping. It is devesting when a woman is labouring well, and her partner, or sometimes her mother, isn't coping and undermines the woman's confidence in her body. I have often felt like giving him the drugs. One feels hopeless and helpless when adverse comments and stressed support people influence the woman. And lets face it, in the hospital setting who has the strongest and personal relationship, and therefore more likely to influence ? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gloria Lemay Sent: Friday, 14 October 2005 5:59 AM To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;@uniserve.com;;; Subject: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so This is a group that no one has thought to blame the high cesarean rate on. Hmm. Gloria Scotland on Sunday - October 2, 2005 Squeamish men pushing wives towards Caesareans RICHARD GRAY HEALTH CORRESPONDENT FRETTING fathers-to-be are fuelling Scotland's soaring Caesarean section rate because they do not like to see their pregnant partners in pain, midwives have warned. They claim many worried husbands are afraid of the mess and noise that accompanies natural childbirth. Instead they are encouraging their wives to give birth at large consultant-led hospital units where they can get powerful painkillers and surgery. But midwives claim these over-protective men are unwittingly causing their partners to have unnecessary Caesarean sections and drugs by taking them to these baby factories. They say more women would have natural births if they used smaller midwife-run maternity units. The proportion of women choosing to have Caesareans has leapt from 6.2% to 9% in the last 10 years with more than 4,600 women choosing to have the major surgical procedure in 2004. Experts claim the increase in popularity is mainly due to the misconception that Caesareans are a safer and pain-free option to traditional childbirth. But the abdominal surgery can leave mothers in pain for weeks afterwards and they are prone to getting infections in their wound. The controversy surrounding Caesareans has led to tensions between midwives and doctors over the best way of providing services to pregnant women. Earlier this year the Royal College of Midwives launched a campaign to promote normality in childbirth. Phyllis Winters, a midwifery team leader at Montrose Community Maternity Unit, believes the celebrity trend of opting for Caesareans has helped create the myth that surgery is the easier option. But she believes squeamish husbands have also played a part in the decline of natural childbirth. She will present her claims at a conference organised by the National Childbirth Trust (NCT) and the Royal College of Midwives in Dunfermline, Fife, on Thursday. Winters said: A lot of couples take decisions about childbirth together and men in particular feel wary about childbirth. They are frightened about seeing their partner in pain and about what can go wrong. As a result they often prefer to go to the consultant led unit where they perceive there is a higher level of care. Unfortunately there is also a higher level of intervention when it is not needed. In Montrose less than 8% of the births we deal with at the midwife-led unit get transported to the specialist unit due to complications Women need more positive role models to have natural births and perhaps then we will see a change in the way society views what is a natural life event. Men also have to understand that by going to a midwife-led service they are not taking a risk. Currently just 63% of all babies born in Scotland are delivered naturally, but midwives claim the vast majority of births using Caesarean sections and induction should
