Re: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fwd: term breech trial There are 2 OBs at Rosebud Hospital who do ECVs. One of them will attend standing vag beech on insistent request at the level 2 units on the Peninsula. But women don't request it, they opt for C/S instead. With kind regardsBrenda Manning www.themidwife.com.au - Original Message - From: Helen and Graham To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 12:52 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option I think it would be good to get a list of providers in each state who are performing External Cephalic Version ECV. I know, having just been to Box Hill Maternity for an inservice, they have one or two progressive obstetricians who have a regularECV clinic. They have theatre on standby if needed. I am sure plenty of women would be prepared to travel far and wide if they knew this option existed and could possibly avoid the need for LUSCS. I know this is not optimal, but at least some women may avoid LUSCS if ECV is offered. I think it is performed at 37 weeks to be the most successful. I would also be interested in other units offering this service to tell the women in my care if anyone knows of them. Thanks Helen Cahill - Original Message - From: Justine Caines To: OzMid List Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fwd: term breech trial Hi ChrisI am a rural consumer, with knowledge of practices pretty much across the country.The term breech trial has done us in. I agree the paper turning it on its head (no pun intended!) is basically being ignored. The only vaginal breech I hear of or see in the stats, (other than those at JHH with Andrew Bisits) in the system are the undiagnosed ones and if a woman is very lucky the 2nd twin who is dragged out by forceps after she has consented to an epidural (often the only way she will be allowed to have twins vaginally).So what to do?Midwives: Raise this in clinical forums and instead of presenting the evidence for vaginal breech ask Drs what their evidence is for routine c/s. If you come across women with a breech on board provide them with all the info Consumers: Put it out there that breech does not necessarily equal c/s and continue to mount the arguments of the furphy of risk (for much of obstetrics). Support women we meet to demand choice.JCJustine CainesNational Policy Co-ordinatorMaternity Coalition IncPO Box 625SCONE NSW 2329Ph: (02) 65453612Fax: (02)65482902Mob: 0408 210273E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]www.maternitycoalition.org.au__ NOD32 1.1797 (20061010) Information __This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.http://www.eset.com
RE: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fwd: term breech trial further to supporting ECV is osteotherapy. My osteopath recently shared with me her experience of treating a client with a breech baby who was being forced into having a c/s. Her Dr's were very synical of the idea. Working with both, the woman had scans etc but also had a treatment before (not sure how long) the ECV. Osteo can treat both Mum and baby, creating a nice spacious environment and perhaps addressing some fears the baby has etc. In this case, bubs turned beautifully, much to the astonishment of the medical Dr's. I have personally experienced an Osteo treatment with my 3rd baby who was very much responding to the hands on my belly. I could feel him hidingand eventually he came to her and it was incredibly clear to me what was going on. After, the osteo who was also my friend, was able to express some very interesting stuff about my baby that made sense. as said, if an ECV is a womans only option for a breech lay then supporting it is important. cheers Megan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of nunyaraSent: Thursday, 12 October 2006 9:12 AMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option Hi all! Most of you probably already know that acupuncture can help turn a breech baby. I know of some mothers who have used Moxa (a Chinese herb Mugwort in a rolled form which is lit and applied to a specific acupuncture point Bladder 67) successfully to turn a breech bub and for others it has not worked. However, I would recommend that professional acupuncture treatment be sought as acupuncturists use Moxa as well. I have recently read an article in the Journal of Complementary Medicine (which is a journal for doctors and pharmacists who are trying to get in on natural therapies) which covered a scientific trial in the use of acupuncture to turn breech babies. Of the group who had acupuncture treatment, most of those babies turned but out of the group who received no treatment, only a couple of the bubs turned. The outcome of the trial was that acupuncture was successful with breech presentations. I am madly trying to find which Journal this article was in but I have safely put it away (which means that I probably wont ever be able to find it again!) I am a Bowen therapist as well and have used bowen a couple of times with breech and the bubs have turned. I think trying acupuncture and/or Bowen though is preferable to doing nothing and ending up with a C/S. Cheers, Ramona Lane Nunyara, Bargara Beach, Qld. From: owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au [mailto:owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au] On Behalf Of Honey AcharyaSent: Wednesday, 11 October 2006 2:18 PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option Here in Townsville Qld some of the Ob's in the Townsville Hospital perform ECV's. David Watson is particulary successful at this and I have seen him perform a few and he seems to have the right touch and technique, the women who had other Ob's try on them firstand then himsaid he was much more gentle and it looked that way too. He has the woman lie on her side slightly and rests his knee behind their back, and using ultrasound on and off to monitor baby's position, then pushes the baby around getting them to either do a forward somersault or backward one. The private Ob's here refuse to do it all together. I noticed they are also performing the EECV trial (EarlyECV) around 33-34 weeks? One of the women I was with was being offerred this optionbut declined preferring to give her baby further time to turn and then at 37-38 weeks when baby was still in the breech position had a successful ECV and went on to have a straightforward normal vaginal birth at 41 weeks. Honey - Original Message - From: Helen and Graham To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 12:52 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option I think it would be good to get a list of providers in each state who are performing External Cephalic Version ECV. I know, having just been to Box Hill Maternity for an inservice, they have one or two progressive obstetricians who have a regularECV clinic. They have theatre on standby if needed. I am sure plenty of women would be prepared to travel far and wide if they knew this option existed and could possibly avoid the need for LUSCS. I know this is not optimal, but at least some women may avoid LUSCS if ECV is offered. I think it is performed at 37 weeks to be the most successful. I would also be interested in other units offering this service to tell the women in my care if anyone knows of them. Thanks Helen Cahill - Original Message - From
Re: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option As a British midwife I have experienced lots of breeches but this was the first time in the water. It was amazing as the water stopped that hang and the pressure that the cord is sometimes under. Apart from dropping my trousers there was no contact with the woman and her baby, just whispers and encouragement. She did it totally unassisted complete hand off the breech. I feel so proud to be involved with women who have such confidence in their birthing ability. That's half the problems we are facing here. Both women and lots of midwives are scared and don't trust birth. As a midwife we should be highly skilled and knowledgeable, but knowing when to get involved and when to just watch is the greatest skill of all. Lisa Barrett Hi Lisa, Mary and All What a great story! My 2nd twin was breech and was also born into water (untouched until the very end). I had caught twin 1 but wasnt as quick with twin 2 so as she slid out one of our wonderful midwives lightly pushed the babe back towards the front so she would not bob up behind me and instead floated to the front and was essentially caught by me. My babe was footling breech (single). First I knew was our midwife said theres a foot. I remember thinking as her body slid out, brace yourself for the head but it was really quite easy (yes I had just birthed another babe I know!!). She had apgars of 9 and 9. The only discernable difference between her cephalic sister and her was she was a teeny bit shocked and had a wee cry. I am going to try and upload the photos somehow as quite a few people have contacted me (out of interest re twins) JC
Re: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option
Justine I would LOVE to see these !!JoOn 12/10/2006, at 9:49 PM, Justine Caines wrote: As a British midwife I have experienced lots of breeches but this was the first time in the water. It was amazing as the water stopped that hang and the pressure that the cord is sometimes under. Apart from dropping my trousers there was no contact with the woman and her baby, just whispers and encouragement. She did it totally unassisted complete hand off the breech.I feel so proud to be involved with women who have such confidence in their birthing ability. That's half the problems we are facing here. Both women and lots of midwives are scared and don't trust birth. As a midwife we should be highly skilled and knowledgeable, but knowing when to get involved and when to just watch is the greatest skill of all. Lisa Barrett Hi Lisa, Mary and All What a great story! My 2nd twin was breech and was also born into water (untouched until the very end). I had caught twin 1 but wasn’t as quick with twin 2 so as she slid out one of our wonderful midwives lightly pushed the babe back towards the front so she would not bob up behind me and instead floated to the front and was essentially caught by me. My babe was footling breech (single). First I knew was our midwife said there’s a foot. I remember thinking as her body slid out, brace yourself for the head but it was really quite easy (yes I had just birthed another babe I know!!). She had apgars of 9 and 9. The only discernable difference between her cephalic sister and her was she was a teeny bit ‘shocked’ and had a wee cry. I am going to try and upload the photos somehow as quite a few people have contacted me (out of interest re twins) JC
Re: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fwd: term breech trial Well I birthed with a woman on the weekend (and asked her permission before posting this) She had a breech birth in the water. As far as I'm concerned it is a normal vaginal birth and although it was a compound presentation it was very straight forward indeed. Maybe if the attitude of more people is that it's just a variation of normal (and it is) then women wouldn't be so scared. Ultimately it's not up to Obs to "do it" or not it's up to the women. The thought of using ECV to put the baby into the correct position just a choice. Just as breech position maybe the baby's choice. Lisa Barrett - Original Message - From: Honey Acharya To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 1:47 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option Here in Townsville Qld some of the Ob's in the Townsville Hospital perform ECV's. David Watson is particulary successful at this and I have seen him perform a few and he seems to have the right touch and technique, the women who had other Ob's try on them firstand then himsaid he was much more gentle and it looked that way too. He has the woman lie on her side slightly and rests his knee behind their back, and using ultrasound on and off to monitor baby's position, then pushes the baby around getting them to either do a forward somersault or backward one. The private Ob's here refuse to do it all together. I noticed they are also performing the EECV trial (EarlyECV) around 33-34 weeks? One of the women I was with was being offerred this optionbut declined preferring to give her baby further time to turn and then at 37-38 weeks when baby was still in the breech position had a successful ECV and went on to have a straightforward normal vaginal birth at 41 weeks. Honey
RE: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fwd: term breech trial Lisa, could you describe this for us? MM She had a breech birth in the water. As far as I'm concerned it is a normal vaginal birth and although it was a compound presentation it was very straight forward indeed.
RE: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fwd: term breech trial I like this article J: http://www.birthinternational.com/articles/andrea13.html From: owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au [mailto:owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au] On Behalf Of Lisa Barrett Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:06 AM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option resending this message as it didn't seem to appear the last time I posted it Lisa Barrett From: Lisa Barrett To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 4:27 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option Well I birthed with a woman on the weekend (and asked her permission before posting this) She had a breech birth in the water. As far as I'm concerned it is a normal vaginal birth and although it was a compound presentation it was very straight forward indeed. Maybe if the attitude of more people is that it's just a variation of normal (and it is) then women wouldn't be so scared. Ultimately it's not up to Obs to do it or not it's up to the women. The thought of using ECV to put the baby into the correct position just a choice. Just as breech position maybe the baby's choice. Lisa Barrett - Original Message - From: Honey Acharya To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 1:47 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option Here in Townsville Qld some of the Ob's in the Townsville Hospital perform ECV's. David Watson is particulary successful at this and I have seen him perform a few and he seems to have the right touch and technique, the women who had other Ob's try on them firstand then himsaid he was much more gentle and it looked that way too. He has the woman lie on her side slightly and rests his knee behind their back, and using ultrasound on and off to monitor baby's position, then pushes the baby around getting them to either do a forward somersault or backward one. The private Ob's here refuse to do it all together. I noticed they are also performing the EECV trial (EarlyECV) around 33-34 weeks? One of the women I was with was being offerred this optionbut declined preferring to give her baby further time to turn and then at 37-38 weeks when baby was still in the breech position had a successful ECV and went on to have a straightforward normal vaginal birth at 41 weeks. Honey
Re: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fwd: term breech trial Hi Mary, do you mean the birth? Well baby was in a type of yoga positionsitting onone foot . She birthed a foot then the bum then the rest of one leg, next came a knee and the rest of the second leg and foot followed on. she slide out to her abdomen and the water was holding her beautifully the cord not stretched as there was no real downward traction due to the water. She was cycling her legs. First arm came very easily. Second arm didn't seem to be appearing and we could see the arm pit. After two contractions I admit I took off my socks and shoes and was just dropping my trousers when an elbow appeared. Trousers back up. hand must have been at face as it was a few more minutes, then once hand came she slide to the nape of her neck. Chin and mouth appeared showing her head was well tucked in and the woman just breathed this out slowly catching her baby through her legs. cord around the neck x2 apgar 5 at1 9 by 3 mins. She birthed the first foot at 0.55 and completed her birth at 1.18. As a British midwife I have experienced lots of breeches but this was the first time in the water. It was amazing as the water stopped that hang and the pressure that the cord is sometimes under. Apart from dropping my trousers there was no contact with the woman and her baby, just whispers and encouragement. She did it totally unassisted complete hand off the breech. I feel so proud to be involved with women who have such confidence in their birthing ability. That's half the problems we are facing here. Both women and lots of midwives are scared and don't trust birth. As a midwife we should be highly skilled and knowledgeable, but knowing when to get involved and when to just watch is the greatest skill of all. Lisa Barrett - Original Message - From: Mary Murphy To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 10:09 PM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option Lisa, could you describe this for us? MM She had a breech birth in the water. As far as I'm concerned it is a normal vaginal birth and although it was a compound presentation it was very straight forward indeed.
RE: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fwd: term breech trial Hi all! Most of you probably already know that acupuncture can help turn a breech baby. I know of some mothers who have used Moxa (a Chinese herb Mugwort in a rolled form which is lit and applied to a specific acupuncture point Bladder 67) successfully to turn a breech bub and for others it has not worked. However, I would recommend that professional acupuncture treatment be sought as acupuncturists use Moxa as well. I have recently read an article in the Journal of Complementary Medicine (which is a journal for doctors and pharmacists who are trying to get in on natural therapies) which covered a scientific trial in the use of acupuncture to turn breech babies. Of the group who had acupuncture treatment, most of those babies turned but out of the group who received no treatment, only a couple of the bubs turned. The outcome of the trial was that acupuncture was successful with breech presentations. I am madly trying to find which Journal this article was in but I have safely put it away (which means that I probably wont ever be able to find it again!) I am a Bowen therapist as well and have used bowen a couple of times with breech and the bubs have turned. I think trying acupuncture and/or Bowen though is preferable to doing nothing and ending up with a C/S. Cheers, Ramona Lane Nunyara, Bargara Beach, Qld. From: owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au [mailto:owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au] On Behalf Of Honey Acharya Sent: Wednesday, 11 October 2006 2:18 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option Here in Townsville Qld some of the Ob's in the Townsville Hospital perform ECV's. David Watson is particulary successful at this and I have seen him perform a few and he seems to have the right touch and technique, the women who had other Ob's try on them firstand then himsaid he was much more gentle and it looked that way too. He has the woman lie on her side slightly and rests his knee behind their back, and using ultrasound on and off to monitor baby's position, then pushes the baby around getting them to either do a forward somersault or backward one. The private Ob's here refuse to do it all together. I noticed they are also performing the EECV trial (EarlyECV) around 33-34 weeks? One of the women I was with was being offerred this optionbut declined preferring to give her baby further time to turn and then at 37-38 weeks when baby was still in the breech position had a successful ECV and went on to have a straightforward normal vaginal birth at 41 weeks. Honey - Original Message - From: Helen and Graham To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 12:52 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option I think it would be good to get a list of providers in each state who are performing External Cephalic Version ECV. I know, having just been to Box Hill Maternity for an inservice, they have one or two progressive obstetricians who have a regularECV clinic. They have theatre on standby if needed. I am sure plenty of women would be prepared to travel far and wide if they knew this option existed and could possibly avoid the need for LUSCS. I know this is not optimal, but at least some women may avoid LUSCS if ECV is offered. I think it is performed at 37 weeks to be the most successful. I would also be interested in other units offering this service to tell the women in my care if anyone knows of them. Thanks Helen Cahill - Original Message - From: Justine Caines To: OzMid List Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fwd: term breech trial Hi Chris I am a rural consumer, with knowledge of practices pretty much across the country. The term breech trial has done us in. I agree the paper turning it on its head (no pun intended!) is basically being ignored. The only vaginal breech I hear of or see in the stats, (other than those at JHH with Andrew Bisits) in the system are the undiagnosed ones and if a woman is very lucky the 2nd twin who is dragged out by forceps after she has consented to an epidural (often the only way she will be allowed to have twins vaginally). So what to do? Midwives: Raise this in clinical forums and instead of presenting the evidence for vaginal breech ask Drs what their evidence is for routine c/s. If you come across women with a breech on board provide them with all the info Consumers: Put it out there that breech does not necessarily equal c/s and continue to mount the arguments of the furphy of risk (for much of obstetrics). Support women we meet to demand choice. JC Justine Caines National Policy Co-ordinator Maternity Coalition Inc PO Box 625 SCONE NSW 2329 Ph: (02) 65453612 Fax: (02)65482902
Re: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fwd: term breech trial Here in Townsville Qld some of the Ob's in the Townsville Hospital perform ECV's. David Watson is particulary successful at this and I have seen him perform a few and he seems to have the right touch and technique, the women who had other Ob's try on them firstand then himsaid he was much more gentle and it looked that way too. He has the woman lie on her side slightly and rests his knee behind their back, and using ultrasound on and off to monitor baby's position, then pushes the baby around getting them to either do a forward somersault or backward one. The private Ob's here refuse to do it all together. I noticed they are also performing the EECV trial (EarlyECV) around 33-34 weeks? One of the women I was with was being offerred this optionbut declined preferring to give her baby further time to turn and then at 37-38 weeks when baby was still in the breech position had a successful ECV and went on to have a straightforward normal vaginal birth at 41 weeks. Honey - Original Message - From: Helen and Graham To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 12:52 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] term breech trial - ECV option I think it would be good to get a list of providers in each state who are performing External Cephalic Version ECV. I know, having just been to Box Hill Maternity for an inservice, they have one or two progressive obstetricians who have a regularECV clinic. They have theatre on standby if needed. I am sure plenty of women would be prepared to travel far and wide if they knew this option existed and could possibly avoid the need for LUSCS. I know this is not optimal, but at least some women may avoid LUSCS if ECV is offered. I think it is performed at 37 weeks to be the most successful. I would also be interested in other units offering this service to tell the women in my care if anyone knows of them. Thanks Helen Cahill - Original Message - From: Justine Caines To: OzMid List Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fwd: term breech trial Hi ChrisI am a rural consumer, with knowledge of practices pretty much across the country.The term breech trial has done us in. I agree the paper turning it on its head (no pun intended!) is basically being ignored. The only vaginal breech I hear of or see in the stats, (other than those at JHH with Andrew Bisits) in the system are the undiagnosed ones and if a woman is very lucky the 2nd twin who is dragged out by forceps after she has consented to an epidural (often the only way she will be allowed to have twins vaginally).So what to do?Midwives: Raise this in clinical forums and instead of presenting the evidence for vaginal breech ask Drs what their evidence is for routine c/s. If you come across women with a breech on board provide them with all the info Consumers: Put it out there that breech does not necessarily equal c/s and continue to mount the arguments of the furphy of risk (for much of obstetrics). Support women we meet to demand choice.JCJustine CainesNational Policy Co-ordinatorMaternity Coalition IncPO Box 625SCONE NSW 2329Ph: (02) 65453612Fax: (02)65482902Mob: 0408 210273E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]www.maternitycoalition.org.au__ NOD32 1.1797 (20061010) Information __This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.http://www.eset.com
