Re: [PD] , , , || etc
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: On Apr 6, 2009, at 5:26 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote: Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: So a library like 'audiomath' would then have audiomath/libaudiomath.pd_linux. Normally, audiomath/libaudiomath.pd_linux would only include shared code, but for this case, it would also include the ~ class, etc. i guess you meant to name it either audiomath/libaudiomath.so (or .dll or .dylib) or audiomath/audiomath.pd_linux. Perhaps audiomath/libaudiomath.so makes the most sense so that it can't be loaded by Pd as an objectclass. But I am guessing. the question is why you would want to enforce Pd not being able to load this library. at the worst this would allow to mix abstractions, single-object-binaries, multi-object-binaries and shared-code dylibs into a single bundle (libdir-like directory defining a library) the only reason i see to create an explicit mechanism to prevent Pd from loadinga file as an object-class is a notorious aversion against multiboject-binaries. it's ok for me if someone doesn't like these. it's not ok for me declaring war on them. i admit that currently all C-code is considered shared (that is: there is no list2symbol.pd_linux), but once you start blurring the two worlds it get's blurry anyhow (and l2s and list2symbol share about 100% of their code anyhow) I like having each objectclass as its own file. i know Then only the code that is in use will be loaded into memory. linking everything together into one zexy.pd_linux means the whole thing is loaded into memory, no? obviously. but you are surely aware that you cannot avoid people doing this with shared libs (that cannot be loaded directly by Pd) as well. so again, the only reason to make this explicit is because to throw feeble hurdles on the path of freedom of a developer. trying to turn pathos mode off i would also like to have Pd's loading mechanism modified so that it _temporarily_ adds Gem/ to the dylib-searchpath, so one could ship a library with external dependencies (without having to link them statically) I am sure you don't mean to do this on GNU/Linux, right? yes i want to do this on all platforms. I take it you mean like including a .dylib in the Gem folder? but i am not talking about including libGL.so with Gem. it is really something along the lines of your proposal on audiomath/libaudiomath.so. Kind of like what I do with Pd-extended and the Fink dylibs? That is not a great system. I think due to the limitations of the Mac OS X shared lib loading, it would be painful. Basically, AFAIK, a .dylib in Mac OS X must have its path hard-coded in the file. Otherwise, you have to load it manually with a direct call to dlopen. but the path can be relative, no? I don't remember the details in Windows, I think that it already checks . for .dlls by default. this is how i remember it as well. fgmasdr IOhannes smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] , , , || etc
On Apr 8, 2009, at 7:19 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote: Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: On Apr 6, 2009, at 5:26 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote: Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: So a library like 'audiomath' would then have audiomath/ libaudiomath.pd_linux. Normally, audiomath/libaudiomath.pd_linux would only include shared code, but for this case, it would also include the ~ class, etc. i guess you meant to name it either audiomath/ libaudiomath.so (or .dll or .dylib) or audiomath/ audiomath.pd_linux. Perhaps audiomath/libaudiomath.so makes the most sense so that it can't be loaded by Pd as an objectclass. But I am guessing. the question is why you would want to enforce Pd not being able to load this library. at the worst this would allow to mix abstractions, single-object- binaries, multi-object-binaries and shared-code dylibs into a single bundle (libdir-like directory defining a library) the only reason i see to create an explicit mechanism to prevent Pd from loadinga file as an object-class is a notorious aversion against multiboject-binaries. it's ok for me if someone doesn't like these. it's not ok for me declaring war on them. I have traditionally had an aversion to multiobject-binaries because of the pain they caused many people, me included. It seems that they could be fine as long as we have the right mechanisms to be able to put the objectclasses in that binary into a fully functioning namespace, and be able to address them using namespace prefixes. From the Pd interface point of view, all objectclasses should behave the same, regardless of how they are implemented. The idea for the audiomath/libaudiomath.so chunk is for shared code that would be loaded when the library is loaded, whether or not any object class has been loaded. I suppose it might just be simpler to make it a .pd_linux. I just have a feeling that it will cause problems down the line, I don't have an example off hand to back up that feeling. i admit that currently all C-code is considered shared (that is: there is no list2symbol.pd_linux), but once you start blurring the two worlds it get's blurry anyhow (and l2s and list2symbol share about 100% of their code anyhow) I like having each objectclass as its own file. i know Then only the code that is in use will be loaded into memory. linking everything together into one zexy.pd_linux means the whole thing is loaded into memory, no? obviously. but you are surely aware that you cannot avoid people doing this with shared libs (that cannot be loaded directly by Pd) as well. so again, the only reason to make this explicit is because to throw feeble hurdles on the path of freedom of a developer. trying to turn pathos mode off I think the archives have some long discussions about the problems with multi-object binaries. I am not opposed to using them if someone wants to do the work to make them behave like abstractions in a libdir currently do. (i.e. [import mylib] then [myobj]; [mylib/myobj], etc.) Then we would have a relatively straightforward solution for the problems with ~, etc. i would also like to have Pd's loading mechanism modified so that it _temporarily_ adds Gem/ to the dylib-searchpath, so one could ship a library with external dependencies (without having to link them statically) I am sure you don't mean to do this on GNU/Linux, right? yes i want to do this on all platforms. What lib would you include with Gem on GNU/Linux? Shouldn't Gem use the Debian/Ubuntu/Fedora packages? Or am I missing something? I take it you mean like including a .dylib in the Gem folder? but i am not talking about including libGL.so with Gem. it is really something along the lines of your proposal on audiomath/libaudiomath.so. Kind of like what I do with Pd-extended and the Fink dylibs? That is not a great system. I think due to the limitations of the Mac OS X shared lib loading, it would be painful. Basically, AFAIK, a .dylib in Mac OS X must have its path hard-coded in the file. Otherwise, you have to load it manually with a direct call to dlopen. but the path can be relative, no? Not really, IIRC. It has to be an absolute path, but then there is this @executable_path@ variable which is replaced by the path to the executable that is loading the lib. Its all a bit hazy in my brain, it would be worth checking the docs and maybe trying a relative path. I remember trying a lot of things, then giving up and thinking that Pd would have to open audiomath/libaudiomath.so directly using dlopen(). .hc I don't remember the details in Windows, I think that it already checks . for .dlls by default. this is how i remember it as well. fgmasdr IOhannes ¡El pueblo unido jamás será vencido! ___
Re: [PD] , , , || etc
On Apr 6, 2009, at 5:26 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote: Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: So a library like 'audiomath' would then have audiomath/ libaudiomath.pd_linux. Normally, audiomath/libaudiomath.pd_linux would only include shared code, but for this case, it would also include the ~ class, etc. i guess you meant to name it either audiomath/ libaudiomath.so (or .dll or .dylib) or audiomath/ audiomath.pd_linux. Perhaps audiomath/libaudiomath.so makes the most sense so that it can't be loaded by Pd as an objectclass. But I am guessing. the latter is btw, similar to what zexy and/or Gem suggest upstream (that is: from my side; not to be confused with any packagers' versions):: zexy/zexy.pd_linux holds shared code (e.g. [~]) and signle-file-object live side-by-side to it, e.g. rad2deg.pd; i admit that currently all C-code is considered shared (that is: there is no list2symbol.pd_linux), but once you start blurring the two worlds it get's blurry anyhow (and l2s and list2symbol share about 100% of their code anyhow) I like having each objectclass as its own file. Then only the code that is in use will be loaded into memory. linking everything together into one zexy.pd_linux means the whole thing is loaded into memory, no? having said all that, i think it is a good idea: i would like to be able (e.g. in Pd-extended) to load Gem (without modifying the path!) and it should find Gem/Gem.pd_linux and add Gem/ to it's search paths (for abstractions and single-file externals) i would also like to have Pd's loading mechanism modified so that it _temporarily_ adds Gem/ to the dylib-searchpath, so one could ship a library with external dependencies (without having to link them statically) I am sure you don't mean to do this on GNU/Linux, right? I take it you mean like including a .dylib in the Gem folder? Kind of like what I do with Pd-extended and the Fink dylibs? That is not a great system. I think due to the limitations of the Mac OS X shared lib loading, it would be painful. Basically, AFAIK, a .dylib in Mac OS X must have its path hard-coded in the file. Otherwise, you have to load it manually with a direct call to dlopen. I don't remember the details in Windows, I think that it already checks . for .dlls by default. .hc I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. - General Smedley Butler ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] , , , || etc
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: So a library like 'audiomath' would then have audiomath/libaudiomath.pd_linux. Normally, audiomath/libaudiomath.pd_linux would only include shared code, but for this case, it would also include the ~ class, etc. i guess you meant to name it either audiomath/libaudiomath.so (or .dll or .dylib) or audiomath/audiomath.pd_linux. the latter is btw, similar to what zexy and/or Gem suggest upstream (that is: from my side; not to be confused with any packagers' versions):: zexy/zexy.pd_linux holds shared code (e.g. [~]) and signle-file-object live side-by-side to it, e.g. rad2deg.pd; i admit that currently all C-code is considered shared (that is: there is no list2symbol.pd_linux), but once you start blurring the two worlds it get's blurry anyhow (and l2s and list2symbol share about 100% of their code anyhow) having said all that, i think it is a good idea: i would like to be able (e.g. in Pd-extended) to load Gem (without modifying the path!) and it should find Gem/Gem.pd_linux and add Gem/ to it's search paths (for abstractions and single-file externals) i would also like to have Pd's loading mechanism modified so that it _temporarily_ adds Gem/ to the dylib-searchpath, so one could ship a library with external dependencies (without having to link them statically) fmgadsr IOhannes smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] , , , || etc
Martin Peach wrote: Mathieu Bouchard wrote: On Sun, 5 Apr 2009, Martin Peach wrote: The shell's [] (/usr/bin/test) also has -gt,-lt,-ge,-le,-eq,-ne, which it uses for numeric comparisons, whereas it uses ,,=,=,==,!= for string comparisons. It also needs both by design. [snip] Oh I see. But that notation is only standard in shell languages also at least one assembly language: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/68000_Assembly#Conditional_tests Claude -- http://claudiusmaximus.goto10.org ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] , , , || etc
Claude Heiland-Allen wrote: Martin Peach wrote: Mathieu Bouchard wrote: On Sun, 5 Apr 2009, Martin Peach wrote: The shell's [] (/usr/bin/test) also has -gt,-lt,-ge,-le,-eq,-ne, which it uses for numeric comparisons, whereas it uses ,,=,=,==,!= for string comparisons. It also needs both by design. [snip] Oh I see. But that notation is only standard in shell languages also at least one assembly language: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/68000_Assembly#Conditional_tests While it's true 68000 was one of the easiest to learn, assembly language is notoriously obscure. (like anl, orl, jc from 8051) And proprietary concerns meant that every processor had a different mnemonic set, so standardization was out the window from the beginning. Pd is a higher level language that trades off efficiency for a more human interface. Naming things for ease of typing is not usually consistent with naming things according to what they do. Martin ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] , , , || etc
On Sun, 5 Apr 2009, Martin Peach wrote: Oh I see. But that notation is only standard in shell languages and is not going to help someone guess the name of the object or what it does, especially if they are not used to english. If they are so much not used to English, then how do you justify names like [hip~] and [dac~] ? So you want something guessable by someone in most any language, then do your best to support [] [] [=] etc, because that's exactly what you need. So if I understand you correctly, you need something written in English for people who can't read English, and is guessable by them because they can't use help files and they don't read manuals, and at the same time it can't be the symbols that they already know because the filesystems might not support the characters that could already be substituted by hexloader which might be not loaded, on a system that deprecated non-libdir -lib for ideological reasons about how much code should be put per file. Maybe I should've just say, just figure out how to support special characters so that we don't have to hear about elongated names designed for people who can't read them. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] , , , || etc
On Sun, 5 Apr 2009, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: --- On Mon, 4/6/09, Martin Peach martin.pe...@sympatico.ca wrote: Oh I see. But that notation is only standard in shell languages and is not going to help someone guess the name of the object or what it does, especially if they are not used to english. You could name [or] just [o] for example...a saving of one letter in exchange for an infinite increase in uncertainty. It would contribute to making Pd a secret language for initiates who bang until. Are you saying that initiates would know a secret way to bang until that does not cause Pd to freeze? It's all about users who don't want to read helpfiles and refuse to learn anything and whose opinion is still important, I don't know why. Or, that an infinite increase in uncertainty would dull the users' senses so much that they could no longer tell the difference between an operational and frozen patch? You have to question the infinite increase in uncertainty. Why was this said? is Martin assuming [o] to be an abbreviation for every possible current or future word that may start by [o] ? And somehow at once the user can't possibly be bothered to open the help file to figure what o means. Pd is already a secret language for initiates. Even your hypothetical beginner is required to guess the name and functionality of what should be a standard object. But I imagine the work everyone is doing on organizing libraries by category will go a long way towards remedying that. A system of mutually-exclusive categories is not very hyperlinked... multiple tags per class is a way that is a lot more helpful in getting people to find what they need, as there is usually more than one useful tag to put on a class, and a system of mutually-exclusive categories only allows one such word at the expense of others. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] , , , || etc
On Mon, 6 Apr 2009, Claude Heiland-Allen wrote: also at least one assembly language: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/68000_Assembly#Conditional_tests Yeah, but if Martin thinks that shells and Perl both don't matter, then anything lower-level won't matter (if you don't think of Pd as being lower-level than Perl, which imho would also be questionable...) Basically it's a matter of first coming up with a long-worded solution as a way to teach english to non-english speakers who want patches to read like english, and then coming up with an appropriately-elaborated problem to fit that solution. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] , , , || etc
On Mon, 6 Apr 2009, Martin Peach wrote: Pd is a higher level language that trades off efficiency for a more human interface. Yes, it's definitely more human to take a simple formula that fits in a small space and explode it into a network of little components with long names for the sake of reassuring themselves on the basis that it's more visual (so it must be easier, isn't it?) and more verbose (so it must be easier isn't it?) and then use all the placebo effect necessary to make spiderwebs of long names _become_ easier than the simple formula. This is for the benefit of those users who define themselves as more human than the others because they say so. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] , , , || etc
Claude Heiland-Allen wrote: Martin Peach wrote: Mathieu Bouchard wrote: On Sun, 5 Apr 2009, Martin Peach wrote: The shell's [] (/usr/bin/test) also has -gt,-lt,-ge,-le,-eq,-ne, which it uses for numeric comparisons, whereas it uses ,,=,=,==,!= for string comparisons. It also needs both by design. [snip] Oh I see. But that notation is only standard in shell languages also at least one assembly language: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/68000_Assembly#Conditional_tests Claude and in the PHP template engine PHPTAL: http://phptal.motion-twin.com/manual/en/#tal-condition Thomas -- Spielen Sie Strip Schnipp-Schnapp? (Adam Weishaupt to Johann Wolfgang von Goethe in: Robert Shea Robert A. Wilson, The Golden Apple) http://www.residuum.org/ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] , , , || etc
On Sun, 5 Apr 2009, Martin Peach wrote: The shell's [] (/usr/bin/test) also has -gt,-lt,-ge,-le,-eq,-ne, which it uses for numeric comparisons, whereas it uses ,,=,=,==,!= for string comparisons. It also needs both by design. Sure, but bash is written in c and it can call its functions whatever it likes because they are built into the program. (It will also try to interpret your file name if it isn't alphanumeric) The reason why I listed those examples is not to say that you could just use the special punctuation instead of letters. I'm just pointing you to what looks like a standard notation for writing those same concepts as letters, so that you write = as ge instead of greaterthanorequal or greaterequal or greq or any other long and nonstandard combination. That's all I mean. Do you understand? _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801, Montréal, Québec___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] , , , || etc
Hallo, Derek Holzer hat gesagt: // Derek Holzer wrote: I have found that using these math functions doesn't always create on different systems using Pd-Extended. Is this really true? Because these objects for messages are builtins and if builtins don't work in Pd extended that would be a severe issue. Of course it's different with their signal counterparts where they are externals. Ciao -- Frank BarknechtDo You RjDj.me? _ __footils.org__ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] , , , || etc
Sorry not to be specific. I meant the signal ones. I have replaced all with [expr~]. D. Frank Barknecht wrote: Hallo, Derek Holzer hat gesagt: // Derek Holzer wrote: I have found that using these math functions doesn't always create on different systems using Pd-Extended. Is this really true? Because these objects for messages are builtins and if builtins don't work in Pd extended that would be a severe issue. Of course it's different with their signal counterparts where they are externals. Ciao -- ::: derek holzer ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ::: http://www.vimeo.com/macumbista ::: ---Oblique Strategy # 168: Use fewer notes ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] , , , || etc
I think there a workable solution for the problem of object names that use characters that don't work on all filesystems. For binaries, like ~, they can be linked into a .pd_linux that is loaded as part of the libdir. One part of the libdir plan is to have a shared library that is loaded when the libdir is loaded. That mechanism could also be used to load a file that includes these classes. So a library like 'audiomath' would then have audiomath/ libaudiomath.pd_linux. Normally, audiomath/libaudiomath.pd_linux would only include shared code, but for this case, it would also include the ~ class, etc. .hc On Apr 5, 2009, at 3:44 PM, Derek Holzer wrote: Sorry not to be specific. I meant the signal ones. I have replaced all with [expr~]. D. Frank Barknecht wrote: Hallo, Derek Holzer hat gesagt: // Derek Holzer wrote: I have found that using these math functions doesn't always create on different systems using Pd-Extended. Is this really true? Because these objects for messages are builtins and if builtins don't work in Pd extended that would be a severe issue. Of course it's different with their signal counterparts where they are externals. Ciao -- ::: derek holzer ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista ::: http://www.vimeo.com/macumbista ::: ---Oblique Strategy # 168: Use fewer notes ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list Programs should be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute. - from Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] , , , || etc
Mathieu Bouchard wrote: On Sun, 5 Apr 2009, Martin Peach wrote: The shell's [] (/usr/bin/test) also has -gt,-lt,-ge,-le,-eq,-ne, which it uses for numeric comparisons, whereas it uses ,,=,=,==,!= for string comparisons. It also needs both by design. Sure, but bash is written in c and it can call its functions whatever it likes because they are built into the program. (It will also try to interpret your file name if it isn't alphanumeric) The reason why I listed those examples is not to say that you could just use the special punctuation instead of letters. I'm just pointing you to what looks like a standard notation for writing those same concepts as letters, so that you write = as ge instead of greaterthanorequal or greaterequal or greq or any other long and nonstandard combination. That's all I mean. Do you understand? Oh I see. But that notation is only standard in shell languages and is not going to help someone guess the name of the object or what it does, especially if they are not used to english. You could name [or] just [o] for example...a saving of one letter in exchange for an infinite increase in uncertainty. It would contribute to making Pd a secret language for initiates who bang until. Martin ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] , , , || etc
--- On Mon, 4/6/09, Martin Peach martin.pe...@sympatico.ca wrote: From: Martin Peach martin.pe...@sympatico.ca Subject: Re: [PD] , , , || etc To: Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca Cc: pd list pd-list@iem.at Date: Monday, April 6, 2009, 5:50 AM Mathieu Bouchard wrote: On Sun, 5 Apr 2009, Martin Peach wrote: The shell's [] (/usr/bin/test) also has -gt,-lt,-ge,-le,-eq,-ne, which it uses for numeric comparisons, whereas it uses ,,=,=,==,!= for string comparisons. It also needs both by design. Sure, but bash is written in c and it can call its functions whatever it likes because they are built into the program. (It will also try to interpret your file name if it isn't alphanumeric) The reason why I listed those examples is not to say that you could just use the special punctuation instead of letters. I'm just pointing you to what looks like a standard notation for writing those same concepts as letters, so that you write = as ge instead of greaterthanorequal or greaterequal or greq or any other long and nonstandard combination. That's all I mean. Do you understand? Oh I see. But that notation is only standard in shell languages and is not going to help someone guess the name of the object or what it does, especially if they are not used to english. You could name [or] just [o] for example...a saving of one letter in exchange for an infinite increase in uncertainty. It would contribute to making Pd a secret language for initiates who bang until. Are you saying that initiates would know a secret way to bang until that does not cause Pd to freeze? Or, that an infinite increase in uncertainty would dull the users' senses so much that they could no longer tell the difference between an operational and frozen patch? Pd is already a secret language for initiates. Even your hypothetical beginner is required to guess the name and functionality of what should be a standard object. But I imagine the work everyone is doing on organizing libraries by category will go a long way towards remedying that. -Jonathan Martin ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] , , , || etc
Derek Holzer wrote:
I have found that using these math functions doesn't always create on
different systems using Pd-Extended. Therefore, it makes it difficult to
write about them in the FLOSS Manual. How can I insure that they work on
every Extended installation, or should I replace them with [expr] and
[expr~] equivalents?
Personally I wish those things would be renamed using the kind of simple
alphabetic characters that work as file names on any OS ('a', 'b', 'c'
etc...). For instance greaterthan, lessthan, and, or; then some
aliasing method could provide a means on those systems that can handle
it to refer to them as '' or whatever).
There are still files in the svn repository that make it impossible for
me to update the Pd svn on a Windows box, since tortoise svn at least
abandons the update at the first error. (Files with * in the name.)
A previous attempt to solve this was the hexloader, I think it failed
because not many people can recall the hex equivalent of characters like
'' in less time than it takes to do something else instead, like [expr].
Martin
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Re: [PD] , , , || etc
Mathieu Bouchard wrote: On Sat, 4 Apr 2009, Martin Peach wrote: etc...). For instance greaterthan, lessthan, and, or; then some aliasing method could provide a means on those systems that can handle it to refer to them as '' or whatever). Perl uses gt,lt,ge,le,eq,ne as string comparisons whereas ,,=,=,==,!= are used for numeric comparisons. Perl needs both by design. You could reuse the same names. The shell's [] (/usr/bin/test) also has -gt,-lt,-ge,-le,-eq,-ne, which it uses for numeric comparisons, whereas it uses ,,=,=,==,!= for string comparisons. It also needs both by design. Sure, but bash is written in c and it can call its functions whatever it likes because they are built into the program. (It will also try to interpret your file name if it isn't alphanumeric) Pd too has that freedom for its built-in functions but also has the ability to load a subset of all imaginable functions as externals. The limitation lies in the inability of the various operating systems to accept files named using arbitrary combinations of the available character set. All of the OSs that I know of can handle regular a-z type characters, so I suggest sticking to that range for the names of externals. That's all. Martin ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] /etc/security/limits.conf WAS Re: Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc4 released on ubuntu
Sounds like a big buffer by default is the best option for the package. Maybe something like 50ms, that should be big enough to cover all but the really heinous hardware. Then docs about setting up for tight timing, limits.conf, -rt, etc. .hc On Jul 18, 2007, at 2:03 PM, Miller Puckette wrote: I think it's best to put this on the wiki as a possible tweak. There are too many 'reasonable' variations. For instance, on personal machines I use my own login name instead of a group 'audio' (for simplicity); also, I don't touch the 'nice' settings. I've never had stability problems with -rt and use it in all my routine work. My idea is to make my development environment exactly the same as the performance environment to reduce the chance of surprises. However, if you're in the habit of having Pd spawn sub-processes, -rt is dangerous. I'm not sure if renicing is safe or not; I never do it myself, preferring to count on the RTPRIO setting to take care of things. cheers Miller On Wed, Jul 18, 2007 at 06:52:11PM +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote: Hallo, hard off hat gesagt: // hard off wrote: The rlimits approach will soon be common knowledge among all Linux audio users anyway. Not everyone wants to learn about this stuff. Some people just want to install Ubuntu Studio and make music. hans, i am so much on your side here. ..although i'd say: 'some of us just want to install ubuntu studio, make massively complicated pd patches, and then make music.' Others want to make massive 36-channel recordings with Ardour, run 128-voice synthesiziers with SuperCollider, rock the party with Mixxx, play Csound5 in realtime, edit midi arrangements with MusE, run a live webradio stream with icecast2 while OTOH others want to harden their webserver with port-knock logins or set fierce limits for all users. Should all these packages fight for who should edit limits.conf and whose edits will finally survive? This is not about if users should learn how to edit limits.conf or not, this is about playing fair with other pieces of software installed in a distribution. If it was only about making editing limits.conf easier, here's a way: Just run this script as root/under sudo: #!/bin/sh if test -w /etc/security/limits.conf then read -p Update /etc/security/limits.conf? [yN]: DOIT if test $DOIT = y then echo @audio - nice -10 /etc/security/limits.conf echo @audio - rtprio 99 /etc/security/limits.conf echo @audio - memlock unlimited /etc/security/ limits.conf echo /etc/security/limits.conf updated successfully! echo You need to logout completely and login again to echo activate changes. echo Also make sure you're in group \audio\. else echo Okay, doing nothing fi else echo /etc/security/limits.conf not writable, giving up fi # EOF Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list You can't steal a gift. Bird gave the world his music, and if you can hear it, you can have it. - Dizzy Gillespie ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] /etc/security/limits.conf WAS Re: Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc4 released on ubuntu
On Jul 14, 2007, at 2:16 PM, Frank Barknecht wrote: Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: Can anyone make a wiki page about this on http://puredata.org/docs ? It would be quite handy to have. Also, I'd love to hear suggestions how to make this part of the Pd- extended package. I think it makes a lot of sense to have this a debconf question. I suppose setuid could be a debconf question as well. I *really* don't think, that every audio software on the planet should try to setup a user's system for a certain way of realtime operation. If at all, this should be done only by the package libpam-modules or maybe by some meta-package (e.g. realtime-desktop) that the puredata package could recommend. I am interested in the result rather than how it is implemented. If that was a bad idea, are there any others? I think it is important that the Pd packages work well after installing without having to tweak it, including having glitch-free audio after installing. It works like this with many programs on Mac OS X, I think it should work the same on GNU/Linux. The rlimits approach will soon be common knowledge among all Linux audio users anyway. Not everyone wants to learn about this stuff. Some people just want to install Ubuntu Studio and make music. It would like to support that impulse. I think that is possible without restricting people from getting deeper. .hc Adding a note to /usr/share/doc/puredata/README.Debian would be something to consider, of course. Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list Mistrust authority - promote decentralization. - the hacker ethic ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] /etc/security/limits.conf WAS Re: Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc4 released on ubuntu
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: I am interested in the result rather than how it is implemented. If that was a bad idea, are there any others? I think it is important that the Pd packages work well after installing without having to tweak it, including having glitch-free audio after installing. The issue is: Tweaking Pd is fine, but editing limits.conf is tweaking a very different part of the system. If I may exaggerate a teeny-tiny bit: I guess we would never consider to download, configure, compile and install a realtime-patched kernel while installing Pd, even though Pd would benefit from that. Regarding getting glitch-free operation in Pd for newbies: Just make a big buffer size the default, then nobody should get (too many) glitches even without realtime mode. As I wrote elsewhere, enabling -rt for Pd as default in my opinion is a bad idea, and without that startup setting, it doesn't matter at all what's in limits.conf. As I wrote there as well: Personally I never run -rt except in performances or rehearsals for performances. It works like this with many programs on Mac OS X, I think it should work the same on GNU/Linux. Things may have changed, but when I still had Windows, no audio application I installed has ever asked me if I would like to change the security settings of my system. Not everyone wants to learn about this stuff. Some people just want to install Ubuntu Studio and make music. It would like to support that impulse. I think that is possible without restricting people from getting deeper. By all I know, Ubuntustudio, Jacklab, Pure:Dyne and 64Studio already have limits.conf set up accordingly. Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] /etc/security/limits.conf WAS Re: Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc4 released on ubuntu
The rlimits approach will soon be common knowledge among all Linux audio users anyway. Not everyone wants to learn about this stuff. Some people just want to install Ubuntu Studio and make music. hans, i am so much on your side here. ..although i'd say: 'some of us just want to install ubuntu studio, make massively complicated pd patches, and then make music.' ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] /etc/security/limits.conf WAS Re: Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc4 released on ubuntu
Hallo, Frank Barknecht hat gesagt: // Frank Barknecht wrote: By all I know, Ubuntustudio, Jacklab, Pure:Dyne and 64Studio already have limits.conf set up accordingly. Or actually: I didn't check, so maybe they haven't (except pure:dyne, which has), but it may be worth to take a look at how they do it, if they do it, and if they don't, maybe indeed suggest a meta-package that sets limits.conf. A puredata package as well as jackd, ardour etc. could then recommend this package. Just doing this for limits.conf would be trivial, but such a tweak-realtime package could also include some other stuff, like setting interrupts, checking for preempt in the kernel etc. But to reiterate: IMO this is not something a Pd package should even try to do itself, especially out of respect for the various distribution policies. Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] /etc/security/limits.conf WAS Re: Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc4 released on ubuntu
Hallo, hard off hat gesagt: // hard off wrote: The rlimits approach will soon be common knowledge among all Linux audio users anyway. Not everyone wants to learn about this stuff. Some people just want to install Ubuntu Studio and make music. hans, i am so much on your side here. ..although i'd say: 'some of us just want to install ubuntu studio, make massively complicated pd patches, and then make music.' Others want to make massive 36-channel recordings with Ardour, run 128-voice synthesiziers with SuperCollider, rock the party with Mixxx, play Csound5 in realtime, edit midi arrangements with MusE, run a live webradio stream with icecast2 while OTOH others want to harden their webserver with port-knock logins or set fierce limits for all users. Should all these packages fight for who should edit limits.conf and whose edits will finally survive? This is not about if users should learn how to edit limits.conf or not, this is about playing fair with other pieces of software installed in a distribution. If it was only about making editing limits.conf easier, here's a way: Just run this script as root/under sudo: #!/bin/sh if test -w /etc/security/limits.conf then read -p Update /etc/security/limits.conf? [yN]: DOIT if test $DOIT = y then echo @audio - nice -10 /etc/security/limits.conf echo @audio - rtprio 99 /etc/security/limits.conf echo @audio - memlock unlimited /etc/security/limits.conf echo /etc/security/limits.conf updated successfully! echo You need to logout completely and login again to echo activate changes. echo Also make sure you're in group \audio\. else echo Okay, doing nothing fi else echo /etc/security/limits.conf not writable, giving up fi # EOF Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] /etc/security/limits.conf WAS Re: Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc4 released on ubuntu
Hallo, Miller Puckette hat gesagt: // Miller Puckette wrote: I've never had stability problems with -rt and use it in all my routine work. My idea is to make my development environment exactly the same as the performance environment to reduce the chance of surprises. However, if you're in the habit of having Pd spawn sub-processes, -rt is dangerous. I'm not sure if renicing is safe or not; I never do it myself, preferring to count on the RTPRIO setting to take care of things. My main reason to not run -rt normally is to avoid the risk of getting into a lockup when I do something wrong in my patch. ;) A reason not to have it in .pdrc/.pdsettings is, that I often to run two Pds, one for Gem, one for audio. I prefer starting the audio Pd with -rt manually then, while the Gem-Pd won't run with -rt. (I also run two Pds, because Gem with Mesa-DRI drivers crashes Pd when closing the gemwin, and often even without closing. By running two Pds I only loose half of my work.) But anyway, I believe all this should be a choice of the user and not be predefined by the package. Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] /etc/security/limits.conf WAS Re: Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc4 released on ubuntu
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: Can anyone make a wiki page about this on http://puredata.org/docs ? It would be quite handy to have. Also, I'd love to hear suggestions how to make this part of the Pd- extended package. I think it makes a lot of sense to have this a debconf question. I suppose setuid could be a debconf question as well. I *really* don't think, that every audio software on the planet should try to setup a user's system for a certain way of realtime operation. If at all, this should be done only by the package libpam-modules or maybe by some meta-package (e.g. realtime-desktop) that the puredata package could recommend. The rlimits approach will soon be common knowledge among all Linux audio users anyway. Adding a note to /usr/share/doc/puredata/README.Debian would be something to consider, of course. Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] /etc/security/limits.conf WAS Re: Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc4 released on ubuntu
Frank Barknecht wrote: [...] its astonishing, how often we agree... mfga.sdr IOhannes ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] /etc/security/limits.conf WAS Re: Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc4 released on ubuntu
On Jul 14, 2007, at 2:16 PM, Frank Barknecht wrote: Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: Can anyone make a wiki page about this on http://puredata.org/docs ? It would be quite handy to have. Also, I'd love to hear suggestions how to make this part of the Pd- extended package. I think it makes a lot of sense to have this a debconf question. I suppose setuid could be a debconf question as well. I *really* don't think, that every audio software on the planet should try to setup a user's system for a certain way of realtime operation. If at all, this should be done only by the package libpam-modules or maybe by some meta-package (e.g. realtime-desktop) that the puredata package could recommend. The rlimits approach will soon be common knowledge among all Linux audio users anyway. Adding a note to /usr/share/doc/puredata/README.Debian would be something to consider, of course. If someone writes that README, I'll happily add it to the package. I think that docs or packages/linux_make could work as a place in CVS for it. Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list [W]e have invented the technology to eliminate scarcity, but we are deliberately throwing it away to benefit those who profit from scarcity.-John Gilmore ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
