subject:"\[PD\] Musical notation object on Pd"

The INScore project is also cross-platform (Linux, MacOS, Windows).  
Controlled using OSC, build over the Guido Engine, it extends the music  
score to arbitrary graphic objets and gives a temporal dimension to all  
of them. It provides graphic synchronization between the components,  
interaction features... More about the system capabilities :  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p96FVMENNtI


these examples are quite nice, haven't seen them in max before. I didn't
look at the max folder before. if you want, I can program them in Pd,
including the ones that you didn't include, like interlude.maxpat (or
someone else can as well, if they want to).

I didn't see the interaction example in your folders, can you include it
as well?

What is the current situation of this project? Are you temporarily at
Grame, is this a thesis of yours? How long is it going to be developed,
are there going to be any license issues in the future, etc etc.?


João

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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd


in that case, I'll have little interest in your solution.


Hey, I'm making an abstraction, which you can modify to make it work the
way you want, and I promise to accept your version in GridFlow (though
perhaps under a different name). What's wrong with that ?


nothing, it's quite nice. I'm just alerting that it can be a more complex  
problem.




I'm just alerting to what going on to this terrain might involve, as for
long pitch hasn't been reduced to midi integers. like if someone
releases an oscilator that doesn't accept values behind commas, no one
will find it useful.


The analogy doesn't hold that much, because oscillators use non-integer
midi numbers a lot more often than a score needs to.


that depends on the person. if you get someone that doesn't really work  
that much with electronic, you give him an oscillator with integers, and  
he'll be happy (for a short while, until he will need more than that,  
hopefully).




I'm saying to notate these things in the picture.


ok... hmmm... I may try something later, but you're still not telling me
how someone would pick a number of ± cents by clicking in a certain way
inside of the box. How would that happen ?


I didn't look at your example and I can't do it for now, I really can't  
have a break to look for the files.
I'm not sure if it's a good idea to control that with the mouse, maybe  
better an external command? As I said on another mail, I don't know if on  
open music etc is possible to change notes by click-dragging, or if it's  
that important.




you could display some of these with a cluster, indicating the top and
bottom values, and the normal cluster line to notate it's a cluster.


A probability distribution is not just an interval, it's a likelihood
associated to each value. (Well, often a probability distribution isn't
even an interval, but that's another story)


that's right. in that case it would have to be a symbol or something, that  
opens up the note reservoir by clicking on it.




I mentioned those things because I was just guessing what kind of things
one could invent, which would make microtonality just not complete enough
anymore, so I picked a few things that a mathematician might be curious  
to

try.


anyway these examples can be interesting. it might be better to do with  
encapsulation of note objects inside other notes. don't know pd is  
capable of doing that with normal objects (or current data structures  
capabilities, they're still underdeveloped), without giving the programmer  
a breakdown and psychanalist therapy.


João

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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

we can have a few examples in here:

http://james-ingram-act-two.de/stockhausen/stockhausenScores.html

ah, didn't know he had these examples, weren't there last time I visited
this site.

particulary Xi for flûte,
http://james-ingram-act-two.de/stockhausen/Xi/sxia1l.html

he use exactly the same notation shown in your preview picture, thank
you for showing it.

Those are samples of papers written by the master, but the pieces I
played at school contained also explanations about symbols used all
along the scores,
maybe be that's why I confused the issue by saying he used his own
standard.

master indeed, but not about microtonal music or notation. these pieces I
don't know (am not very interested in the Licht period), and if you look
at the Licht formula
(http://www.analogartsensemble.net/blog/licht_superformula.jpg), it's
basically chromatic. The Klang cycle I also don't know, it can be that
there are more microtonal works there.
In current day notation there are also huge amounts of symbols for all
kinds of actions (and as with pitch notation, some composers share
symbols, other decide to make new ones), but that's not important for this
discussion.

Also, how a composer would do when he need to build his own scale, from
empiric harmonic rules?
Let me try to explain, music composition has evolved a certain way
technically that one composer could build up a scale for each different
piece he makes.
How could he write scores that could be read by any genuine musician any
time?

[warning for anyone else, the rest of the paragraph has nothing to do with
Pd]

I'm going backwards on the sentences:

Absolutely, he can't (and that can be a good thing). How do you know how a
staccato in a Beethoven piano sonata really sounds? Even if you get the
right instrument (not a piano, but a pianoforte, and a specific model at
that), you would have to go to the propper room where it should be
performed (not a concert hall, but some ballroom at some aristocrat's
castle), where the people with huge dresses [that probably absorb more
frequencies than nowadays jeans and t-shirts] sit or stand around, some of
them talking (planning a war or a love escapade) or eating, or even
pissing in a corner or behind a door (if it would be played at Versailles).

For a 20th century composer (with Cds and other technologies around), he
can notate his score as clear as possible - if the music is notateable,
which isn't the case with e.g. Bussoti
(http://transcriptions.english.ucsb.edu/archive/courses/liu/materials/DG/bussoti-rhizome.gif)
and many others -, but the rest is related to performance practice, and
theoretical documentation. Speaking of Stockhausen, he's done a good job
at that, because he always worked with specific performers who specialized
in his music (and were even prohibited from playing anything else than
Stockhausen), who now teach in his music courses. He also recorded all his
works himself (tradition started by Stravinsky), so there is a concrete
reference that is accessible, and many theoretical articles about his
works and his views on music etc.

The composer can choose any system he wants to, as long as there is enough
(fixed and aural / written and recorded) documentation, and everything is
explained somewhere quite clearly. Going back to the notation examples,
the symbols I sent are mainstream, but in some pieces they don't make
sense musically, so they won't fit 100% of music around. But they fit lots
of it, and many composers think on those scales when working.
Nowadays, mostly, a scale is just a pitch reservoir without hierarchies
(which in a traditional scales are important), what most composers do is
to choose the highest definition they want/can hear (usually being 1/4
tone, but also going up to 16th or 32th tone) and/or makes sense musically
for the piece in question.

There are always exceptions. One example, a friend of mine did a piece
where at some point the amplified instruments should generate beatings
between each other. So one instrument stays put, and the other has an
accidental with an arrow (like in the picture) and a number with the
beating frequency he should try to get at (very difficult to play). This
moment in the piece needs another system than the normal tempered
notation, because it hasn't much to do with tempered music. He explained
it clearly in the notes, so it should be clear what the piece should sound
like.

João

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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

2010-11-10 Thread patko



we can have a few examples in here:

http://james-ingram-act-two.de/stockhausen/stockhausenScores.html

particulary Xi for flûte, 
http://james-ingram-act-two.de/stockhausen/Xi/sxia1l.html 

he use exactly the same notation shown in your preview picture, thank you for 
showing it.

Those are samples of papers written by the master, but the pieces I played at 
school contained also explanations about symbols used all along the scores,
maybe be that's why I confused the issue by saying he used his own standard.

 Also, how a composer would do when he need to build his own scale, from 
empiric harmonic rules?
Let me try to explain, music composition has evolved a certain way technically 
that one composer could build up a scale for each different piece he makes.
How could he write scores that could be read by any genuine musician any time?


- João Pais jmmmp...@googlemail.com a écrit :

   Can we have a view of one of these pieces written with modern  
  notation?
 
  just to have a clue about what we are saying in here.
 
 I don't have the time now to look for scores with didactic examples. I
  
 made a small image which has the most used examples (or they wouldn't
 be  
 in sibelius). inside the black area [only the upper row, I notice now]
 are  
 the mostly used for 1/2 (chromatic) and 1/4-tone notation.
 The accidentals with arrows can be interpreted on different ways
 depending  
 on the composer, but in most cases mean smaller inflection than 1/4
 tone.  
 They can also mean a) 8th or 16th tones b) 1/4 tones (if the composer 
 
 doesn't use many) c) unscaled deviations, like natural harmonics d)
 1/3  
 tones e) something else.
 But main point is, they're used quite often, even if there's no
 standard  
 as traditional as for chromatic notation.
 I guess main composers I was thinking of are Grisey, Ferneyhough, some
  
 Nono, and lots of young people I know (more or less personally).
 For example, my old composition teacher, Spahlinger, has a system for 
 
 32th-tones, but that I don't find it to be a standard.
 
 
  I've played several pieces where composers like K. H. Stockhausen
 used  
  their own
  notation, not based on a standard, in fact there is no standard for 
 
  microtonal
 
 the scores I have from Stockhausen are not microtonal yet, they're
 before  
 the Licht period. which scores are you talking about?
 
 
  music because:
 
  1/ this style doesn't exist since a significant enough amount of
 time.
 
 true, notated microtonal music is around one century old now, although
 no  
 one play Wyschnegradsky or Hába nowadays. only from/after the 60s it 
 
 really kicked in in a systematic way.
 
 
  2/ actually many different styles of microtonal music emerge from  
  different
  composers
  that uses their own notation system.
 
 that was more the case in the 60s-80s - and the sudden notation
 expansion  
 happened with any kind of musical parameters, not just with pitch  
 notation. nowadays it's becoming slowly a standard, one symptom of it
 is  
 that all main notation programs offer the symbols I sent. also
 composers  
 nowadays are thinking more of 1/4 (and 1/8 tones) as part of the
 tempered  
 scale - of course, not all. and also depending on the geographic  
 (cultural) location.
 
 
  3/ no one (that I know) has been able to find an harmonical
 relationship  
  that
  would introduce a real notation system like we have in classical
 music  
  notation.
 
 don't know if I understand the problem exactly. anyway these systems
 are  
 built upon the classical tonal notation system, which doesn't make
 much  
 sense nowadays if we consider that each note is equal to each other, 
 
 instead of having a diatonic scale.
 but I don't know if I understood what you meant, and if it even is
 that  
 important for the use of these symbols.

-- 
Patrice Colet 

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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

2010-11-10 Thread Ed Kelly

To wade in again, as I am still writing my objects...

I think we need to think of opening up possibilities that encompass others, 
rather than restricting any new objects to traditional tonal/rhythmic 
music(s).

The reason why I chose GEM as the platform for my notation experiments was that 
it can be augmented (a la Busoni) with standard GEM objects (i.e. non-standard 
notation) so that if a composer (me) wishes for the lines of the stave to go 
haywire, it is a possibility. But this sort of graphical manipulation of the 
objects falls outside of what I would deem standardised music notation - 
Busoni/Busotti is for poetic interpretation by someone like David Tudor, rather 
than proscriptive execution of symbols with definite meanings.

However, any new object specifically designed for standardised music notation 
must at least have the capability to represent possibilities that can be 
well-defined e.g. 1/4 tones, glissandi, different stops, noteheads, beam 
styles, 
proportional notation, non-standard key signatures (armature? See Messeian's 
Mode 2 for an 8-note scale) etc. Non-standard (i.e. deliberately ambiguous) 
elements of notation should be left out of such a system I think.

...But this is also why I've chosen to represent the notation elements using 
truetype fonts, which can be easily edited and augmented. Meanwhile, just 
organising rhythmic groupings within a bar is enough of a perplexing problem, 
especially when one is using dynamic patching to achieve this!

There is my 2 crotchets worth for today :)
Ed

 Metastudio 4 for Pure Data - coming soon!
Metastudio 3 still available at http://sharktracks.co.uk/puredata



- Original Message 
From: João Pais jmmmp...@googlemail.com
To: patko colet.patr...@free.fr
Cc: pd-list pd-list@iem.at
Sent: Wed, 10 November, 2010 11:55:17
Subject: Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

 we can have a few examples in here:
 
 http://james-ingram-act-two.de/stockhausen/stockhausenScores.html

ah, didn't know he had these examples, weren't there last time I visited
this site.


 particulary Xi for flûte, 
http://james-ingram-act-two.de/stockhausen/Xi/sxia1l.html
 
 he use exactly the same notation shown in your preview picture, thank you for 
showing it.
 
 Those are samples of papers written by the master, but the pieces I played at 
school contained also explanations about symbols used all along the scores,
 maybe be that's why I confused the issue by saying he used his own standard.

master indeed, but not about microtonal music or notation. these pieces I
don't know (am not very interested in the Licht period), and if you look
at the Licht formula
(http://www.analogartsensemble.net/blog/licht_superformula.jpg), it's
basically chromatic. The Klang cycle I also don't know, it can be that
there are more microtonal works there.
In current day notation there are also huge amounts of symbols for all
kinds of actions (and as with pitch notation, some composers share
symbols, other decide to make new ones), but that's not important for this
discussion.


  Also, how a composer would do when he need to build his own scale, from 
empiric harmonic rules?
 Let me try to explain, music composition has evolved a certain way 
 technically 
that one composer could build up a scale for each different piece he makes.
 How could he write scores that could be read by any genuine musician any time?

[warning for anyone else, the rest of the paragraph has nothing to do with
Pd]

I'm going backwards on the sentences:

Absolutely, he can't (and that can be a good thing). How do you know how a
staccato in a Beethoven piano sonata really sounds? Even if you get the
right instrument (not a piano, but a pianoforte, and a specific model at
that), you would have to go to the propper room where it should be
performed (not a concert hall, but some ballroom at some aristocrat's
castle), where the people with huge dresses [that probably absorb more
frequencies than nowadays jeans and t-shirts] sit or stand around, some of
them talking (planning a war or a love escapade) or eating, or even
pissing in a corner or behind a door (if it would be played at Versailles).

For a 20th century composer (with Cds and other technologies around), he
can notate his score as clear as possible - if the music is notateable,
which isn't the case with e.g. Bussoti
(http://transcriptions.english.ucsb.edu/archive/courses/liu/materials/DG/bussoti-rhizome.gif)

and many others -, but the rest is related to performance practice, and
theoretical documentation. Speaking of Stockhausen, he's done a good job
at that, because he always worked with specific performers who specialized
in his music (and were even prohibited from playing anything else than
Stockhausen), who now teach in his music courses. He also recorded all his
works himself (tradition started by Stravinsky), so there is a concrete
reference that is accessible, and many theoretical articles about his
works and his views on music etc

Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

2010-11-10 Thread Jonathan Wilkes

--- On Wed, 11/10/10, João Pais jmmmp...@googlemail.com wrote:

 From: João Pais jmmmp...@googlemail.com
 Subject: Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd
 To: patko colet.patr...@free.fr
 Cc: pd-list pd-list@iem.at
 Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 12:55 PM
  we can have a few examples in
 here:

  http://james-ingram-act-two.de/stockhausen/stockhausenScores.html

 ah, didn't know he had these examples, weren't there last
 time I visited
 this site.

  particulary Xi for flûte, 
  http://james-ingram-act-two.de/stockhausen/Xi/sxia1l.html

  he use exactly the same notation shown in your preview
 picture, thank you for showing it.

  Those are samples of papers written by the master, but
 the pieces I played at school contained also explanations
 about symbols used all along the scores,
  maybe be that's why I confused the issue by saying he
 used his own standard.

 master indeed, but not about microtonal music or notation.
 these pieces I
 don't know (am not very interested in the Licht period),
 and if you look
 at the Licht formula
 (http://www.analogartsensemble.net/blog/licht_superformula.jpg),
 it's
 basically chromatic. The Klang cycle I also don't know, it
 can be that
 there are more microtonal works there.
 In current day notation there are also huge amounts of
 symbols for all
 kinds of actions (and as with pitch notation, some
 composers share
 symbols, other decide to make new ones), but that's not
 important for this
 discussion.

   Also, how a composer would do when he need to
 build his own scale, from empiric harmonic rules?
  Let me try to explain, music composition has evolved a
 certain way technically that one composer could build up a
 scale for each different piece he makes.
  How could he write scores that could be read by any
 genuine musician any time?

 [warning for anyone else, the rest of the paragraph has
 nothing to do with
 Pd]

 I'm going backwards on the sentences:

 Absolutely, he can't (and that can be a good thing). How do
 you know how a
 staccato in a Beethoven piano sonata really sounds?

Do you mean how a staccato in a Beethoven sonata 
sounded to an audience member listening to the composer himself play 
it?  Because I don't at all understand what it means to say 
what a notated piece of music really sounds like.

-Jonathan

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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd


Absolutely, he can't (and that can be a good thing). How do
you know how a
staccato in a Beethoven piano sonata really sounds?


Do you mean how a staccato in a Beethoven sonata
sounded to an audience member listening to the composer himself play
it?  Because I don't at all understand what it means to say
what a notated piece of music really sounds like.


the original question had to do with how a composer expresses his wishes  
as well as possible so other performers interpret it correctly. What a  
pieces really sounds like is another question, most likely much more  
complicated, I guess.


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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

2010-11-10 Thread Jonathan Wilkes

--- On Wed, 11/10/10, João Pais jmmmp...@googlemail.com wrote:

 From: João Pais jmmmp...@googlemail.com
 Subject: Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd
 To: patko colet.patr...@free.fr, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com
 Cc: pd-list pd-list@iem.at
 Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 11:52 PM
  Absolutely, he can't (and
 that can be a good thing). How do
  you know how a
  staccato in a Beethoven piano sonata really
 sounds?

  Do you mean how a staccato in a Beethoven sonata
  sounded to an audience member listening to the
 composer himself play
  it?  Because I don't at all understand what it
 means to say
  what a notated piece of music really sounds like.

 the original question had to do with how a composer
 expresses his wishes as well as possible so other performers
 interpret it correctly.

Right.  And, for the sake of argument, let's assume that we can 
precisely reproduce the sonic/cultural setting you were referring to 
in your Beethoven analogy, and we hear the staccato in that setting.

What's the relevance of that experience for a performer who wants to 
interpret that staccato in a performance?  I think the answer 
depends on issues surrounding the rest of around 200 years of reception 
history of that piece, as well as various other historical/cultural
/musical factors that the performer keeps in mind.  It could be 
anywhere on a spectrum from completely
irrelevant, as it is in many performances in the early 20-th century 
on modern instruments, to the sole factor in some other performance.  
But it doesn't make sense to call any point on that spectrum 
correct interpretation just because it jibes with the original 
sound of the staccato (still assuming that could be known).  It does, 
however, seem fitting to call some interpretations boring 
because the performer limits his/her imagination to fit whatever 
models of interpretation are fashionable at the time.

Also, when speculating about original intentions, it seems curious that 
people tend to assume such knowledge would clear up issues of 
interpretation.  It seems equally possible that, upon magically hearing 
Mozart or Beethoven play some enigmatically notated articulation or 
slur, that one would come out more confused than when they entered.

Maybe a shorter way to say all this is that clear, well thought-out 
scores in the 21st century made by considerate composers have a very 
high likelyhood of receiving a serious and considerate performance.  
Really, who are these composers whose scores are so misunderstood that 
their complex poly-rythms get played back as homophony?

-Jonathan

 What a pieces really sounds like
 is another question, most likely much more complicated, I
 guess.

It's actually quite simple: the piece really sounds like what one hears 
when listening to the piece.  What else could possibly be the case?

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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

2010-11-09 Thread João Pais


 Also you might be interested by this:

http://strasheela.sourceforge.net/strasheela/examples/Output/05-MicrotonalChordProgression-ex9.preview.png

we see microtones indicated by signs upside the note, not in the  
armature, neither on the ladder,
this is clean, easier to read than microtonal 'flat up' , or microtonal  
'natural down' signs


I'm just giving the viewpoint of a composer who works with modern notation  
here.
I've never seen this standard before. I'm sure that if I see any reference  
about it I'll understand how it works, but this isn't anything that has  
been widely used (if at all) in written music. Since there are already  
several notation standards out there which are widely used, any solution  
that might be programmed should use these standards. Or in the end it come  
out a nice object, but not really usable by musicians (which was the first  
topic of this thread).


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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

2010-11-09 Thread João Pais

If i'm not mistaken, in PWGL and OpenMusic the user can choose if he or  
she
wants to display all the notes as sharps (dièse) or flats (bémol) and  
then
change each note to its enharmonic pair if wanted. What I supouse would  
be

the best choice is to have a kind of message that you send to the object
with the following options:
- all black notes as sharps. suggestion: [accidental sharp
- all black notes as flats. suggestion: [accidental flat
- wich note I want in wich way. suggestion: [accidental 1 0 1 0 0   
meaning

c-sharp, e-flat, f-sharp, a-flat and b-flat.
What would be extremely nice is if the user could change those options  
after

the note is displayed, dynamically.

In the case of microtones, again, if I'm not mistaken, in those CAC
softwares the user can choose between:
- Display the quarter-tone default symbols(
http://en.wikivisual.com/index.php/Image:Partial_accidentals.gif) if its
just quarter tone what the user wants
- Display the arrowed accidentals for more-than-sharp,
less-than-natural, etc. (see attached picture, made with lilypond) and
display a number at the right of the note wich I don't remember if it is  
the
frequency in Herz or the midi pitch as in, for instance, 60.3. I  
personally

prefer the second option, but I believe that in the perfect tool the user
could choose between the two.


I don't use open music, but can get the input of someone who works with it  
almost every day. The list Caio made is right from a notation viewpoint.  
The only thing that can be added is that for the microtonal pitches, the  
number above is usually either the frequency of the note, or the cent  
deviation (between 0 and 100).


Or maybe any other number that the composer wants to display there. But at  
some point, it is expected that a number will appear there.


João

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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

2010-11-09 Thread Dominique Fober

Hi all,

I'm a bit late to join this discussion... 
This is just to mention some open source projects of interest regarding the 
music notation topic. First the GUIDO project 
(http://guidolib.sourceforge.net/) that already includes a Pd external and next 
the INScore project (http://inscore.sourceforge.net/) - already mentioned by 
João - which may be viewed as an extension of the former.

The GUIDO project is cross-platform (Linux, MacOS, Windows). It is based on the 
Guido Music Notation format, a simple textual music description language. It 
takes account of conventional western music notation and probably supports most 
of  the features you're discussing but no microtonal yet (which shouldn't be 
difficult to implement) and more generally no contemporary music notation 
signs. 
The GUIDO PureData external 
(https://sourceforge.net/projects/guidolib/files/PureData/) provides all of the 
engine capabilities but is actually not very efficient due to an implementation 
over Tcl/Tk (quickly made without prior experience of externals design). 

The INScore project is also cross-platform (Linux, MacOS, Windows). Controlled 
using OSC, build over the Guido Engine, it extends the music score to arbitrary 
graphic objets and gives a temporal dimension to all of them. It provides 
graphic synchronization between the components, interaction features... More 
about the system capabilities : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p96FVMENNtI 

Regards,

Dominique Fober 
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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

2010-11-09 Thread colet . patrice

Can we have a view of one of these pieces written with modern notation?

just to have a clue about what we are saying in here.

I've played several pieces where composers like K. H. Stockhausen used their own
notation, not based on a standard, in fact there is no standard for microtonal
music because:

1/ this style doesn't exist since a significant enough amount of time.

2/ actually many different styles of microtonal music emerge from different
composers
that uses their own notation system.

3/ no one (that I know) has been able to find an harmonical relationship that
would introduce a real notation system like we have in classical music notation.

Also the notation example I've proposed does exist, I couldn't post a
screenshot otherwise.

well that was my two cents, I'm proposing solutions, I'm not trying to sell my
stuff.

Selon JoÃ£o Pais jmmmp...@googlemail.com:

Also you might be interested by this:

http://strasheela.sourceforge.net/strasheela/examples/Output/05-MicrotonalChordProgression-ex9.preview.png

we see microtones indicated by signs upside the note, not in the
armature, neither on the ladder,
this is clean, easier to read than microtonal 'flat up' , or microtonal
'natural down' signs

I'm just giving the viewpoint of a composer who works with modern notation
here.
I've never seen this standard before. I'm sure that if I see any reference
about it I'll understand how it works, but this isn't anything that has
been widely used (if at all) in written music. Since there are already
several notation standards out there which are widely used, any solution
that might be programmed should use these standards. Or in the end it come
out a nice object, but not really usable by musicians (which was the first
topic of this thread).

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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

2010-11-09 Thread João Pais


I had an idea for the mouse dragging that I don't know how hard is to
implement.
How about making the object behave like the number atom, that is, if the
user click and drag, the notes will go up and down chromatically (or in  
the

scale choosen) and if the user shift+click+drag the notes would move in a
microtonal way. It doesn't have to be that much precise (I would say, two
float points in midi scale maybe? = cents), if the user really wants to  
make

precise notation it would input it as a float on the inlet. At least in
western music, this much precision is impossible to execute by a human
player playing an instrument, this precition would be only for  
calculations

anyway.


I didn't see Mathieu's object yet, but just a small opinion about  
mouse-dragging (or mouse events): afaik, the graphical display of musical  
elements in open music et al is just a display, just an expressive way of  
looking at numbers. I'm not sure if these surfaces allow for mouse control  
in that way (I suspect they don't). Adding mouse control might be not  
really necessary (if you control the numbers), and can make things really  
complicated to manage.


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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

2010-11-09 Thread Caio Barros

About the key signature (armadure), if the user choose, for instance, the
key of G major (with the f-sharp) and click+drag the mouse it will get only
the seven notes from the G major scale? if thats the case I really think
that one important option should be the chromatic scale and in that case the
user need again to choose wich notes are flat and wich are sharp.
If you are planning to make the object behave in major/minor scales the
really best would be to have the options to accept any scale like, for
instance, the modes of limited transposition (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modes_of_limited_transposition) and a lot of
ethnic modes wich are about unlimited (and a lot of them are microtonal, by
the way). If this is too much, at least the chromatic option is imperative.
On the one hand, the scale behavior is nice for some calculations (I already
have some ideas), but honestly I would almost always use it in the chromatic
mode.

I had an idea for the mouse dragging that I don't know how hard is to
implement.
How about making the object behave like the number atom, that is, if the
user click and drag, the notes will go up and down chromatically (or in the
scale choosen) and if the user shift+click+drag the notes would move in a
microtonal way. It doesn't have to be that much precise (I would say, two
float points in midi scale maybe? = cents), if the user really wants to make
precise notation it would input it as a float on the inlet. At least in
western music, this much precision is impossible to execute by a human
player playing an instrument, this precition would be only for calculations
anyway.

2010/11/9 João Pais jmmmp...@googlemail.com

 If i'm not mistaken, in PWGL and OpenMusic the user can choose if he or she
 wants to display all the notes as sharps (dièse) or flats (bémol) and then
 change each note to its enharmonic pair if wanted. What I supouse would be
 the best choice is to have a kind of message that you send to the object
 with the following options:
 - all black notes as sharps. suggestion: [accidental sharp
 - all black notes as flats. suggestion: [accidental flat
 - wich note I want in wich way. suggestion: [accidental 1 0 1 0 0 
 meaning
 c-sharp, e-flat, f-sharp, a-flat and b-flat.
 What would be extremely nice is if the user could change those options
 after
 the note is displayed, dynamically.

 In the case of microtones, again, if I'm not mistaken, in those CAC
 softwares the user can choose between:
 - Display the quarter-tone default symbols(
 http://en.wikivisual.com/index.php/Image:Partial_accidentals.gif) if its
 just quarter tone what the user wants
 - Display the arrowed accidentals for more-than-sharp,
 less-than-natural, etc. (see attached picture, made with lilypond) and
 display a number at the right of the note wich I don't remember if it is
 the
 frequency in Herz or the midi pitch as in, for instance, 60.3. I
 personally
 prefer the second option, but I believe that in the perfect tool the user
 could choose between the two.


 I don't use open music, but can get the input of someone who works with it
 almost every day. The list Caio made is right from a notation viewpoint. The
 only thing that can be added is that for the microtonal pitches, the number
 above is usually either the frequency of the note, or the cent deviation
 (between 0 and 100).

 Or maybe any other number that the composer wants to display there. But at
 some point, it is expected that a number will appear there.

 João

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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

2010-11-08 Thread João Pais


About the scale, do you have problems with midi note? I believe this
would be the most compatible with other functions.


Well, normally I use midi note numbers or a transposed version thereof
(especially : midi note minus a multiple of 12), but in this case, I have
only implemented «white keys», and then, I wonder what you expect the
interface to be, to implement the «black keys», and whether those numbers
should be displayed as dièse or bémol.

I think I will use the vertical space as something as equally divided as
possible into midi notes, and then display all of them as either  
unaltered

or dièse. Later, the latter part can be modified to show notes in any
other chosen scale, maybe...

And I want an option to hide the clef de Sol (thinking of it in the
context of using it as a [#many] component, hypothesising a future in
which [#many] supports an abstraction name as its $1).


don't forget that chromatic pitches is just a small fraction of what's  
available. then there's quarter-, eight-, sixteenth-, etc. tones (just to  
say some for which there exist already notation standards), natural  
tunings (harmonic series), other tunings, cent notation...


as I see it, no notation object is complete without being possible to  
incorporate these as well (I didn't download your object yet, so didn't  
see how you do it).


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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

2010-11-08 Thread Jamie Bullock


On 6 Nov 2010, at 18:16, Jaime Oliver wrote:

 Hi all, 
 
 I once made a draft of an object to convertpitch/duration pairs to lilypond. 
 At this stage, you get a score.txt, the contents of which you have to copy to 
 a lilypond document (.ly) and typeset the score. It doesn't do any of the 
 fancy drawing in the patch.
 
 It is an unfinished object for sure, so be patient, but perhaps there is 
 something in the code that is helpful. It can all be found here:
 
 www.jaimeoliver.pe/src/pd2ly-may10.zip
 
 the score.txt document wil be created in your / directory.
 
 I was hoping to have some time in the future to finish it. in the meantime 
 you can grab it and use it if it is helpful.
 

In addition to this Graham Percival has just kindly agreed to make available 
his old Firelily code.

From the README:


This software package is intended to be an aid to producing algorithmic
sheet music, either in real-time or not.  It takes OSC (Open Sound
Control) messages, which are easily produced in any music programming
language (MAX/Msp, pd, supercollider, chuck, etc) and translates them
into lilypond input files.

As an option, these input files may be sent to lilypond immediately and
the resulting images displayed.  Alternatively, the data may simply be
saved for extra manual tweaks and composition.


This is a 5-years old project, so it might need some tweaking to get it 
working, but still the code/ideas might be useful to someone.

Download:

http://percival-music.ca/software/firelily-0.3.tar.gz

All best,

Jamie

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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

2010-11-08 Thread Caio Barros

2010/11/8 João Pais jmmmp...@googlemail.com

 About the scale, do you have problems with midi note? I believe this
 would be the most compatible with other functions.


 Well, normally I use midi note numbers or a transposed version thereof
 (especially : midi note minus a multiple of 12), but in this case, I have
 only implemented «white keys», and then, I wonder what you expect the
 interface to be, to implement the «black keys», and whether those numbers
 should be displayed as dièse or bémol.

 I think I will use the vertical space as something as equally divided as
 possible into midi notes, and then display all of them as either unaltered
 or dièse. Later, the latter part can be modified to show notes in any
 other chosen scale, maybe...

 And I want an option to hide the clef de Sol (thinking of it in the
 context of using it as a [#many] component, hypothesising a future in
 which [#many] supports an abstraction name as its $1).


 don't forget that chromatic pitches is just a small fraction of what's
 available. then there's quarter-, eight-, sixteenth-, etc. tones (just to
 say some for which there exist already notation standards), natural
 tunings (harmonic series), other tunings, cent notation...

 as I see it, no notation object is complete without being possible to
 incorporate these as well (I didn't download your object yet, so didn't see
 how you do it).


If i'm not mistaken, in PWGL and OpenMusic the user can choose if he or she
wants to display all the notes as sharps (dièse) or flats (bémol) and then
change each note to its enharmonic pair if wanted. What I supouse would be
the best choice is to have a kind of message that you send to the object
with the following options:
- all black notes as sharps. suggestion: [accidental sharp
- all black notes as flats. suggestion: [accidental flat
- wich note I want in wich way. suggestion: [accidental 1 0 1 0 0  meaning
c-sharp, e-flat, f-sharp, a-flat and b-flat.
What would be extremely nice is if the user could change those options after
the note is displayed, dynamically.

In the case of microtones, again, if I'm not mistaken, in those CAC
softwares the user can choose between:
- Display the quarter-tone default symbols(
http://en.wikivisual.com/index.php/Image:Partial_accidentals.gif) if its
just quarter tone what the user wants
- Display the arrowed accidentals for more-than-sharp,
less-than-natural, etc. (see attached picture, made with lilypond) and
display a number at the right of the note wich I don't remember if it is the
frequency in Herz or the midi pitch as in, for instance, 60.3. I personally
prefer the second option, but I believe that in the perfect tool the user
could choose between the two.

I didn't try the object yet because I didn't have the chance to try to
compile gridflow 9.13. I never done this before, but I'll try to do it
today. Anyway, this [note] object seems the most promissing of the choices
presented here (I feel that of course because its the closest to what I had
in mind, maybe in the future the community will choose something different).
Thank you Mathieu!
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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd


On Sun, 7 Nov 2010, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:

Well, normally I use midi note numbers or a transposed version thereof 
(especially : midi note minus a multiple of 12), but in this case, I 
have only implemented «white keys»,


Oupse, to be clear, I mean that I numbered them

  0=Do 1=Ré 2=Mi 3=Fa 4=Sol 5=La 6=Si 7=Do

but that I intend to change that.

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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd


On Sun, 7 Nov 2010, jancs...@yahoo.com wrote:

You could have a method that sets accidental type.  Zero for flats, 1 
for sharps.


Yeah, but I think it should be a manner that can be expanded to future 
support for armatures of any kind. (Are there scores that use accidental 
flats and accidental sharps at the same time ? How often does that 
happen ?)


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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd


On Mon, 8 Nov 2010, João Pais wrote:

don't forget that chromatic pitches is just a small fraction of what's 
available.


Don't forget that I have little interest in microtonal. Don't forget that 
this is an abstraction, and you can either modify it to support microtonal 
and I accept, or you modify it and I refuse the changes and you rename it 
to [microtone] and then I accept it. (!)


then there's quarter-, eight-, sixteenth-, etc. tones (just to say some 
for which there exist already notation standards),


Never seen those. We're getting close to the precision limit of the mouse 
anyway, so, you will have to figure out another way to get more precise 
than 100 ¢ (I never liked the single-pixel precision of Pd, so, when 
we're already down to 2 px per 100 ¢,



natural tunings (harmonic series), other tunings


If you need any kind of just-intonation, it's better to write it in whole 
semitones at first and then use a translator that turns 64 into 63.8631 
and so on, isn't it ? Or are there any complications with that ?



cent notation...


Why not use [nbx] or a plain numberbox (Ctrl+3) for that ?

as I see it, no notation object is complete without being possible to 
incorporate these as well (I didn't download your object yet, so didn't 
see how you do it).


And once it is completed, people will find another reason to call it 
non-complete, such as its inability to represent probability distributions 
of pitches that are supposed to sound different each time you play them, 
or what if the pitch is a complex number, or a quaternion, or a matrix. I 
mean, I don't really believe in this complete word, unless I can see an 
end to the feature expansion.


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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd


On Mon, 8 Nov 2010, Caio Barros wrote:

- wich note I want in wich way. suggestion: [accidental 1 0 1 0 0  
meaning c-sharp, e-flat, f-sharp, a-flat and b-flat. What would be 
extremely nice is if the user could change those options after the note 
is displayed, dynamically.


But this does not handle the question of how I'd set an armature using a 
message. For example, if I have a E-flat armature, 71 has to be displayed 
as B-bécarre, whereas 70 is now the default B.


  http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:B%C3%A9carre.PNG

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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

Not all, if you follow the fourth cycle you don't have a B bécarre but a C flat

- Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca a écrit :

 On Mon, 8 Nov 2010, Caio Barros wrote:
 
  - wich note I want in wich way. suggestion: [accidental 1 0 1 0 0 
 
  meaning c-sharp, e-flat, f-sharp, a-flat and b-flat. What would be 
  extremely nice is if the user could change those options after the
 note 
  is displayed, dynamically.
 
 But this does not handle the question of how I'd set an armature using
 a 
 message. For example, if I have a E-flat armature, 71 has to be
 displayed 
 as B-bécarre, whereas 70 is now the default B.
 
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:B%C3%A9carre.PNG
 
  
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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

Hello, we dont put accidental alterations to armature, we usually put it before 
a note, and eventually in parentheses.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt%C3%A9ration_%28solf%C3%A8ge%29

- Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca a écrit :

 On Sun, 7 Nov 2010, jancs...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
  You could have a method that sets accidental type.  Zero for flats,
 1 
  for sharps.
 
 Yeah, but I think it should be a manner that can be expanded to future
 
 support for armatures of any kind. (Are there scores that use
 accidental 
 flats and accidental sharps at the same time ? How often does that 
 happen ?)
 
  
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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

2010-11-08 Thread João Pais


don't forget that chromatic pitches is just a small fraction of what's
available.


Don't forget that I have little interest in microtonal. Don't forget that
this is an abstraction, and you can either modify it to support  
microtonal

and I accept, or you modify it and I refuse the changes and you rename it
to [microtone] and then I accept it. (!)


in that case, I'll have little interest in your solution. I'm just  
alerting to what going on to this terrain might involve, as for long pitch  
hasn't been reduced to midi integers. like if someone releases an  
oscilator that doesn't accept values behind commas, no one will find it  
useful.




then there's quarter-, eight-, sixteenth-, etc. tones (just to say some
for which there exist already notation standards),


Never seen those. We're getting close to the precision limit of the mouse
anyway, so, you will have to figure out another way to get more precise
than 100 ¢ (I never liked the single-pixel precision of Pd, so, when
we're already down to 2 px per 100 ¢,


natural tunings (harmonic series), other tunings


If you need any kind of just-intonation, it's better to write it in whole
semitones at first and then use a translator that turns 64 into 63.8631
and so on, isn't it ? Or are there any complications with that ?


the problem isn't the exit parameter, but the notation. I was pointing to  
the several standards that exist. and since the point made in this thread  
(not by me) was for this kind of tools to be of assistance to written  
music composers, they should be aware of the complexities these composers  
use.
it's perfectly possible to notate other intonations using a normal  
chromatic scale. one option is not to notate anything at all (and the  
result will just sound untuned), another one is to add the accidentals  
with arrows (which can mean a lot of different things, but it's usually  
accepted), another is to add the accidentals with arrows with the exact  
cent count for the deviation, ... main thing is, the tool should allow for  
these solutions.




cent notation...


Why not use [nbx] or a plain numberbox (Ctrl+3) for that ?


I'm saying to notate these things in the picture. I only saw your object  
from your screenshot, did you mean to add a numberbox over the note?




as I see it, no notation object is complete without being possible to
incorporate these as well (I didn't download your object yet, so didn't
see how you do it).


And once it is completed, people will find another reason to call it
non-complete, such as its inability to represent probability  
distributions

of pitches that are supposed to sound different each time you play them,
or what if the pitch is a complex number, or a quaternion, or a matrix. I
mean, I don't really believe in this complete word, unless I can see an
end to the feature expansion.


you could display some of these with a cluster, indicating the top and  
bottom values, and the normal cluster line to notate it's a cluster. I  
have never seen a pitch as a complex number, but I don't really know what  
is a complex number, I didn't have much math in high school. as for the  
matrix, I guess the word you're looking for is chord? (or a cluster,  
which is a specific type of chord)


main point is, we're in the 21st century, and composers nowadays -  
specially the ones using pwgl, open music, and similar tools - have been  
for a long time not confined to integer midi pitch, and these tools  
reflect that. so if this subject is for a composition tool, this is the  
standard of these tools nowadays, and if someone wants to include  
something like that in Pd, it would make sense to consider the standards  
around us.
music with 8bits and 15Khz can sound nice and there's nothing wrong with  
it, but if pd would be confined to those standards (instead of being  
confined to another set of standards, which still aren't enough for some  
people), it's user base would be much smaller.


João

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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

The armature could be set by telling which scale is played from C major
0 then is no alteration, let says we follow the fifth cycle, then 1 would be 
one sharp, and then G major, 2 two sharps and then D major, etc,
when we arrive after F sharp we come to bémols, so 7 would be like -6 the D 
bémol major scale, 8 or -5 A bémol, etc, ...
is that clear?

If you have exotic scale, the structure will have to be set somwhere like the 
major scale, for setting the armature the same way.

If you have an accidental alteration, just use another flag or message than for 
setting armature.

- Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca a écrit :

 On Sun, 7 Nov 2010, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
 
  Well, normally I use midi note numbers or a transposed version
 thereof 
  (especially : midi note minus a multiple of 12), but in this case, I
 
  have only implemented «white keys»,
 
 Oupse, to be clear, I mean that I numbered them
 
0=Do 1=Ré 2=Mi 3=Fa 4=Sol 5=La 6=Si 7=Do
 
 but that I intend to change that.
 
  
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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd


On Tue, 9 Nov 2010, patko wrote:

Hello, we dont put accidental alterations to armature, we usually put it 
before a note, and eventually in parentheses.


Hello, I'm talking about which armature should be considered implied when 
trying to display a note. E.g. suppose I have an [armature] object 
(hypothetical class) which shows a certain number of alterations. How do I 
communicate that info to nearby [note] objects, which should display notes 
relatively to that armature ?


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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd


- Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca a écrit :

 On Tue, 9 Nov 2010, patko wrote:
 
  Hello, we dont put accidental alterations to armature, we usually
 put it 
  before a note, and eventually in parentheses.
 
 Hello, I'm talking about which armature should be considered implied
 when 
 trying to display a note. E.g. suppose I have an [armature] object 
 (hypothetical class) which shows a certain number of alterations. How
 do I 
 communicate that info to nearby [note] objects, which should display
 notes 
 relatively to that armature ?
 

I'm thinking about additions, by using a dimension value for the number of 
notes in a scale,
and a value corresponding with alteration, so G major scale would look like 
this [7 # 0 0 0 1 0 0 0(.

 Before this the midi notes needs to be scaled, with that way it's possible to 
make up any scale
maybe it would be better to use another class object for the scale as well.

 Also you might be interested by this:

http://strasheela.sourceforge.net/strasheela/examples/Output/05-MicrotonalChordProgression-ex9.preview.png

we see microtones indicated by signs upside the note, not in the armature, 
neither on the ladder,
this is clean, easier to read than microtonal 'flat up' , or microtonal 
'natural down' signs

  
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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd


On Tue, 9 Nov 2010, João Pais wrote:


in that case, I'll have little interest in your solution.


Hey, I'm making an abstraction, which you can modify to make it work the 
way you want, and I promise to accept your version in GridFlow (though 
perhaps under a different name). What's wrong with that ?


I'm just alerting to what going on to this terrain might involve, as for 
long pitch hasn't been reduced to midi integers. like if someone 
releases an oscilator that doesn't accept values behind commas, no one 
will find it useful.


The analogy doesn't hold that much, because oscillators use non-integer 
midi numbers a lot more often than a score needs to.


I'm not really against microtonal, I just don't use it by myself, and I 
don't see myself using them anytime soon. I don't work in a music 
department either.



I'm saying to notate these things in the picture.


ok... hmmm... I may try something later, but you're still not telling me 
how someone would pick a number of ± cents by clicking in a certain way 
inside of the box. How would that happen ?


you could display some of these with a cluster, indicating the top and 
bottom values, and the normal cluster line to notate it's a cluster.


A probability distribution is not just an interval, it's a likelihood 
associated to each value. (Well, often a probability distribution isn't 
even an interval, but that's another story)


I have never seen a pitch as a complex number, but I don't really know 
what is a complex number,


I was more or less joking.

It's a math gimmick that was found to allow to shorten a lot of formulas, 
apart from making them weirder. For example, a complex pitch is an 
ordinary pitch and a decay speed (of the note's volume) expressed in the 
same number (that's both a shortcut and something weird).



I didn't have much math in high school.


When I was in school, complex numbers were generally avoided. Even in 
grade 13 physics, were they'd have fitted well, they were avoided. I 
had to wait till the mid year of a university degree to have a course on 
them.


as for the matrix, I guess the word you're looking for is chord? (or a 
cluster, which is a specific type of chord)


No, I'm not looking for a word. A matrix is another math gadget bigger 
than a complex number, and sometimes you can do funny things with them. If 
one made an oscillator whose pitch is a matrix, a single oscillator would 
output several signals at once (!!!).


I mentioned those things because I was just guessing what kind of things 
one could invent, which would make microtonality just not complete enough 
anymore, so I picked a few things that a mathematician might be curious to 
try.


But you can use complex numbers in pd already, using [fft~] or [cpole~]. I 
made a song based on [cpole~] called I'm Just a Simple Pole in a Complex 
Plane.


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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd


I don't know if you already see this website:
http://music.columbia.edu/~alessi/  
http://music.columbia.edu/%7Ealessi/ it

has an e-mail but is very outdated...


that mail bounced. it's current employer has his name on a list, but no  
mail contact.



I still think you could do all the CAC 'logic' in Pd and use external  
tools

for the music notation part.



I could do it, no doubt about it, and I think that I will eventualy (I'm
having some troubles with jack in my computer though, but that's another
problem). Still, what I want is something to display the pitches inside  
Pd
while I'm working with the algorithms, honestly, all those hacks are not  
as

good as a tool like those from PWGL or OpenMusic. I know that Pd was not
tought as a CAC program, but on the other side, It was not tought as a  
video

rendering software either...


I also agree. this isn't about rendering a score programmed in Pd, but  
working on the score at the same time one works on Pd. And for that it's  
necessary that both things work at the same time and can communicate with  
each other.
One other detail that would be important is also the communication from  
the score to the patch. For example, trigger events by clicking in the  
score, etc.




Don't get me wrong, all those ideas were very very helpful and I will try
them, but since we are just talking about an (yet) hypothetical tool, I
think we should consider what would be the best thing to have for that
poupose. Pd has a lot of potential as a CAC tool (we are already doing  
it)
and a notation display is something that I feel is essential for that  
task.


As I said, this project seemed to me to be nice, and it's also at an  
advanced stage. http://sourceforge.net/projects/inscore/


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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

 I'm not a programmer and don't want to disencourage you, but I don't know if 
you're really picking the 

 right surface/tools for this. would it make sense to unite forces around an 
other project?


Well...that might have been an option, but the first concert is already 
organised, in less than three months, the system is nearly finished, and I've 
been working on it for two years.

I can't stop now!!!

It _will_ work.

Ed


 Another one! I'm working on a full system of music notation display for GEM if
 that's any help. Progress is really slow, I'm using dynamic patching to create
 the objects, and it's in no way compatible with Lilypond notation.
 
 In fact, it's a painful process. The kind of object you are talking about 
would
 be much nicer - but only if it could also cope with complete rhythmic elements
 (ties, beaming, time sigs etc) for me.



  

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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

that looks a nice beginning (I can't try it now). But I would say that in  
order to make a complete object, it should be possible to


- render complex musical structures (including microtonal pitches,  
dynamics, articulations, rhythms, polyphony ...)
- get instructions from pd and/or from other standards - musicxml, for  
example

- use characters and fonts defined by the user
- on top of the cherry, interact with pd as well - e.g. release messages  
when someone clicks on a note on the score, ...

- whatever I'm not remembering now

Since there are already some projects going through in this area (e.g.  
pwgl or inscore), wouldn't it make sense to try to integrate with these,  
or try to help them, instead of reinventing the wheel?


João



On Thu, 4 Nov 2010, Caio Barros wrote:


Hello guys. I've been dreaming about an object that would display
musical notation and output data (like midi numbers for instance).


Hi, I just made a slider for a musical note on a stave, but I haven't
decided what to do with the scales. Look at this :

   http://gridflow.ca/help/note-help.png

(It's in GridFlow's SVN, if you can use that.)

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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

Having said what I said, inscore does look particularly interesting

 Metastudio 4 for Pure Data - coming soon!
Metastudio 3 still available at http://sharktracks.co.uk/puredata

- Original Message 
From: Ed Kelly morph_2...@yahoo.co.uk
To: João Pais jmmmp...@googlemail.com
Cc: PD List pd-list@iem.at
Sent: Sun, 7 November, 2010 10:37:49
Subject: Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

 I'm not a programmer and don't want to disencourage you, but I don't know if 
you're really picking the 

 right surface/tools for this. would it make sense to unite forces around an 
other project?

Well...that might have been an option, but the first concert is already 
organised, in less than three months, the system is nearly finished, and I've 
been working on it for two years.

I can't stop now!!!

It _will_ work.

Ed

 Another one! I'm working on a full system of music notation display for GEM if
 that's any help. Progress is really slow, I'm using dynamic patching to create
 the objects, and it's in no way compatible with Lilypond notation.

 In fact, it's a painful process. The kind of object you are talking about 
would
 be much nicer - but only if it could also cope with complete rhythmic elements
 (ties, beaming, time sigs etc) for me.

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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

2010-11-07 Thread Andy Farnell


That's a really neat and clever little object
that musicians will immediately love.

a.


On Sat, 6 Nov 2010 23:50:37 -0400 (EDT)
Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote:

 On Thu, 4 Nov 2010, Caio Barros wrote:
 
  Hello guys. I've been dreaming about an object that would display 
  musical notation and output data (like midi numbers for instance).
 
 Hi, I just made a slider for a musical note on a stave, but I haven't 
 decided what to do with the scales. Look at this :
 
http://gridflow.ca/help/note-help.png
 
 (It's in GridFlow's SVN, if you can use that.)
 
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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

 Since there are already some projects going through in this area (e.g. pwgl 
 or 
inscore), wouldn't it
 make sense to try to integrate with these, or try to help them, instead of 
reinventing the wheel?


Perhaps, but consider this:

The performer I am working with is a percussionist, and excellent at 
sight-reading music. However, he's not by any stretch of the imagination a 
programmer, and the idea of giving him command-line compilation issues to deal 
with, or complex connectivity between packages, would kill the project straight 
away. From me he needs to receive, via email, a PD patch that will just work. 
If 
other libraries are wrapped into PD i.e. externals are made and integrated 
into a future PD-extended, then these might provide some practical options for 
me to work with classical musicians who aren't programmers (and the majority of 
them are not). However, for the time being I am limited to that which can be 
rendered by the current PD-extended straight out of the (in)box, without any 
modifications to the computer it is running on.

That is why I'm building a system that uses just GEM and a truetype font, which 
can be made into a single package and distributed to the performer of my piece. 
If I had institutional support perhaps I could envisage something more complex 
to work, but I have been unlucky in that respect. I could either give up, or 
try 
to find a practical solution that works both for me and for a non-computer geek 
classically trained player. I choose the latter because I want to make music.

Best,
Ed



  

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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

2010-11-07 Thread patko


- Caio Barros caio.bar...@gmail.com a écrit :

 About the scale, do you have problems with midi note? I believe this
 would be the most compatible with other functions.
 
 2010/11/7 Mathieu Bouchard  ma...@artengine.ca 

 Hi, I just made a slider for a musical note on a stave, but I haven't
 decided what to do with the scales

 We usually set scale by transposing to the fifth (the major scale seven half 
tones upper) for adding a sharp,
 and to the fourth (the major scale five half-tones upper) for adding a flat


-- 
Patrice Colet 

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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

I know about non-techsavy classical players, I wrote the click tracker for  
them - http://puredata.info/Members/jmmmp/click-tracker.


of course you shouldn't send any cryptical commands to anyone who isn't  
interested in getting them. But for example packaging inscore into the  
same folder as your patch, and starting it (it's a separate application)  
isn't that hard to manage in Pd, and not something that's hard to  
organise. as long as the patch works on its own, the players don't really  
care what's happening inside.


you're free to do what you want, I would myself not even venture into such  
a project, because there are already several resources available that  
might be more efficient on doing the same (or even a better) job.



Since there are already some projects going through in this area (e.g.  
pwgl or

inscore), wouldn't it
make sense to try to integrate with these, or try to help them, instead  
of

reinventing the wheel?



Perhaps, but consider this:

The performer I am working with is a percussionist, and excellent at
sight-reading music. However, he's not by any stretch of the imagination  
a
programmer, and the idea of giving him command-line compilation issues  
to deal
with, or complex connectivity between packages, would kill the project  
straight
away. From me he needs to receive, via email, a PD patch that will just  
work. If
other libraries are wrapped into PD i.e. externals are made and  
integrated
into a future PD-extended, then these might provide some practical  
options for
me to work with classical musicians who aren't programmers (and the  
majority of
them are not). However, for the time being I am limited to that which  
can be
rendered by the current PD-extended straight out of the (in)box, without  
any

modifications to the computer it is running on.

That is why I'm building a system that uses just GEM and a truetype  
font, which
can be made into a single package and distributed to the performer of my  
piece.
If I had institutional support perhaps I could envisage something more  
complex
to work, but I have been unlucky in that respect. I could either give  
up, or try
to find a practical solution that works both for me and for a  
non-computer geek
classically trained player. I choose the latter because I want to make  
music.


Best,
Ed







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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

Yep, you're probably right. I hate this project already, since it's given me a 
summer of frustration while I attempt to look after a 1-year old child while 
trying to get my head around segmented counts and automatically adjusted beams. 
The latter is solved, the former is in an emacs window next to this one.

I'm just in a bit too deep to get out now! If I'd known about inscore before I 
started, I probably would have gone down that path. It doesn't seem to have a 
Linux compile method though...and I don't have a Mac...and the player does.

Best,
Ed


 of course you shouldn't send any cryptical commands to anyone who isn't 
interested in getting
 them. But for example packaging inscore into the same folder as your patch, 
 and 
starting it (it's a
 separate application) isn't that hard to manage in Pd, and not something 
 that's 
hard to organise. as 

 long as the patch works on its own, the players don't really care what's 
happening inside.


 you're free to do what you want, I would myself not even venture into such a 
project, because there 

 are already several resources available that might be more efficient on doing 
the same (or even a 

 better) job.


 Since there are already some projects going through in this area (e.g. pwgl 
or
 inscore), wouldn't it
 make sense to try to integrate with these, or try to help them, instead of
 reinventing the wheel?
 
 
 Perhaps, but consider this:
 
 The performer I am working with is a percussionist, and excellent at
 sight-reading music. However, he's not by any stretch of the imagination a
 programmer, and the idea of giving him command-line compilation issues to deal
 with, or complex connectivity between packages, would kill the project 
straight
 away. From me he needs to receive, via email, a PD patch that will just work. 
If
 other libraries are wrapped into PD i.e. externals are made and integrated
 into a future PD-extended, then these might provide some practical options for
 me to work with classical musicians who aren't programmers (and the majority 
of
 them are not). However, for the time being I am limited to that which can be
 rendered by the current PD-extended straight out of the (in)box, without any
 modifications to the computer it is running on.
 
 That is why I'm building a system that uses just GEM and a truetype font, 
which
 can be made into a single package and distributed to the performer of my 
piece.
 If I had institutional support perhaps I could envisage something more complex
 to work, but I have been unlucky in that respect. I could either give up, or 
try
 to find a practical solution that works both for me and for a non-computer 
geek
 classically trained player. I choose the latter because I want to make music.
 
 Best,
 Ed
 
 
 
 


--Friedenstr. 58
10249 Berlin (Deutschland)
Tel +49 30 42020091 | Mob +49 162 6843570
Studio +49 30 69509190
jmmmp...@googlemail.com | skype: jmmmpjmmmp



  

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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

that makes sense, now it's not the time to stop. maybe for the next piece  
(or not) :)


I only tried the windows version, but inscore should work for all  
plattforms, I think (or I'm misunderstanding something).



Yep, you're probably right. I hate this project already, since it's  
given me a
summer of frustration while I attempt to look after a 1-year old child  
while
trying to get my head around segmented counts and automatically adjusted  
beams.

The latter is solved, the former is in an emacs window next to this one.

I'm just in a bit too deep to get out now! If I'd known about inscore  
before I
started, I probably would have gone down that path. It doesn't seem to  
have a
Linux compile method though...and I don't have a Mac...and the player  
does.


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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

2010-11-07 Thread Marco Donnarumma

Ed that's really madness! but it does look great, I'd be curious to see the
patch.


M



 Yes, it's madness to try this through dynamic patching, but I'm getting
 pretty
 far (see screenshot)




-- 
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Independent New Media Arts Professional, Performer, Teacher
Ongoing MSc by Research, University of Edinburgh, UK


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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd

2010-11-07 Thread Caio Barros

patko:

 We usually set scale by transposing to the fifth (the major scale seven
 half tones upper) for adding a sharp,
  and to the fourth (the major scale five half-tones upper) for adding a
 flat


Now I'm confused. What does Mathieu meant by scale? I tought it was just
what number corresponds to what pitch.


João:

 Since there are already some projects going through in this area (e.g. pwgl
 or inscore), wouldn't it make sense to try to integrate with these, or try
 to help them, instead of reinventing the wheel?


I just tryed INScore and it looks fantastic, although I don't know yet if it
can send information to Pd, how it handles microtonal information, etc. The
problem I see is having that separate window to display the results. Right
now I'm convinced that the ideal would be to have a display inside the same
patch you are working on, a real object.

What Mathieu Bouchard did seems to be just in the right way, although it do
need all that implementations you mentioned its a very very good start.
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Re: [PD] Musical notation object on Pd