subject:"\[PD\] Pd, Max\/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare\?"

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-26 Thread Michal Seta

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Jeffrey Concepcion
 wrote:
> that works fine for sending audio to and from live and pd, but not midi (as
> far as i know). if anyone knows how to send midi to and from live and pd
> (having live's metronome in charge). midi ox/ midi yoke is extremely
> glitchy, it constantly sends signals that turn things on and off within
> live, making it impossible to use.

Welcome to the world of interconnectivity ;)

What about OSC?  Doesn't AL implement that?

cheers

./MiS

___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-26 Thread Daniel Almeida

Jack works. I've used it before, but the other way around, from live to PD. 
What I've found boring was that I couldn't figure out how to send more than 1 
midi message at the same time. Ended up doing several midi channels to control 
PD using MIDI.
Daniel

--- On Fri, 3/26/10, Jeffrey Concepcion  wrote:

From: Jeffrey Concepcion 
Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
To: "Alexandre Porres" , "pd-list" 
Date: Friday, March 26, 2010, 1:57 PM

that works fine for sending audio to and from live and pd, but not midi (as far 
as i know). if anyone knows how to send midi to and from live and pd (having 
live's metronome in charge). midi ox/ midi yoke is extremely glitchy, it 
constantly sends signals that turn things on and off within live, making it 
impossible to use.

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 7:44 PM, Alexandre Porres  wrote:

"i can't remember exactly where i read this, sorry. but i'd really like to be
able to use the vst object to run it in ableton. Jeff"
Hey, why don't you just create a bridge between Live + Pd with Jack?Alex

___

Pd-list@iem.at mailing list

UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

-- 
www.avmachinists.org Puerto Rico based Art Collective/ Non-Profit Org

-Inline Attachment Follows-

___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

  ___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-26 Thread Jeffrey Concepcion

that works fine for sending audio to and from live and pd, but not midi (as
far as i know). if anyone knows how to send midi to and from live and pd
(having live's metronome in charge). midi ox/ midi yoke is extremely
glitchy, it constantly sends signals that turn things on and off within
live, making it impossible to use.

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 7:44 PM, Alexandre Porres  wrote:

> "i can't remember exactly where i read this, sorry. but i'd really like to be
> able to use the vst object to run it in ableton. Jeff"
>
>
> Hey, why don't you just create a bridge between Live + Pd with Jack?
>
> Alex
>
>
> ___
> Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>
>

-- 
www.avmachinists.org Puerto Rico based Art Collective/ Non-Profit Org
___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-24 Thread Alexandre Porres

"i can't remember exactly where i read this, sorry. but i'd really like to be
able to use the vst object to run it in ableton. Jeff"


Hey, why don't you just create a bridge between Live + Pd with Jack?

Alex
___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-23 Thread Jeffrey Concepcion

i can't remember exactly where i read this, sorry. but i'd really like to be
able to use the vst object to run it in ableton.

Jeff

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 5:21 AM, Thomas Grill  wrote:

> > the last i read about the [vst] object in Pd was that is was generally
> > defective (can anyone confirm or correct this?).
>
> Jeffrey, do you know where you read this?
> I would certainly be interested to hear about bug reports.
>
> thanks, Thomas
>



-- 
www.avmachinists.org Puerto Rico based Art Collective/ Non-Profit Org
___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare?

2010-03-22 Thread Frank Barknecht

Hallo,
Jonathan Wilkes hat gesagt: // Jonathan Wilkes wrote:

> I'd just add that one could start from the end of 3.audio.examples 
> and 4.data.structures to get a decent overall idea of what Pd is capable 
> of doing.  

I learned most of the basic Pd knowledge from these patches (and the
html-manual and the control.examples of course, which many people
unfortunalty believe they can skip), but that was several years ago, and at
that time, there wasn't much else. Today you get more detailed explanation of
what these patches do in Miller's book, and you can take courses and workshops,
read more books and tutorials and you have this great large community here and
elsewhere on the web, which wasn't that big in the past.

In "rj" many of the DSP abstractions are actually taken from the
3.audio.examples with localized variable names (tables, sends), so that you can
immediatly use them in your own work without doing that yourself again.

Ciao
-- 
Frank

___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-21 Thread Marco Donnarumma

(Sorry, had a couple of days off)

I actually meant what Roman pointed out, but I wrote it in horrible english.
However, I do agree with you that both aspects are complementary.


M




On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 9:11 PM, Jonathan Wilkes  wrote:

>
>
> --- On Fri, 3/19/10, Roman Haefeli  wrote:
>
> > From: Roman Haefeli 
> > Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these
> compare?
> > To: "Jonathan Wilkes" 
> > Cc: "Marco Donnarumma" , pd-list@iem.at, "Matteo
> Sisti Sette" , m...@artengine.ca
> > Date: Friday, March 19, 2010, 8:11 PM
> > On Fri, 2010-03-19 at 11:02 -0700,
> > Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
> > >
> > > --- On Fri, 3/19/10, Roman Haefeli 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: Roman Haefeli 
> > > > Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue
> > Bidule... How do these compare?
> > > > To: "Marco Donnarumma" 
> > > > Cc: "Jonathan Wilkes" ,
> > pd-list@iem.at,
> > "Matteo Sisti Sette" ,
> > m...@artengine.ca
> > > > Date: Friday, March 19, 2010, 6:07 PM
> > > > On Fri, 2010-03-19 at 09:58 +0100,
> > > > Marco Donnarumma wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Talking about Pd It's fundamental to learn
> > how things
> > > > works, imho.
> > > >
> > > > Pd is the fundament for learning how things work.
> > That was
> > > > my experience
> > > > (and still is).
> > > >
> > > > Roman
> > >
> > > What are you getting at?  The two aren't mutually
> > exclusive.
> >
> > I am actually thinking that the two are complementary.
> >
> > Of course, it helps a lot to have a certain level of
> > knowledge in
> > dsp/math/whatsover before touching Pd. I just wanted to
> > point out, that
> > Pd very well supports the approach of acquiring theory
> > through practice.
> > Concepts such as, that every sound is composed of its
> > sinusoidal
> > partials (just one example of so many possible), sound very
> > abstract and
> > are hard to explain in words. But at the same time, they
> > are often quite
> > easy to illustrate with Pd (see 07.additive.pd from
> > 3.audio.examples).
> >
> > Of course, it is fundamental to learn how things works, but
> > how do you
> > learn those things? My answer is: By using Pd. Similar to
> > how a two year
> > old child learns the basic laws of physics by letting
> > things fall down,
> > throw them away, put them on other things etc, Pd lets you
> > explore the
> > nature of sound. I often feel the need of telling potential
> > Pd users,
> > that it's not necessary to have read many books and be a
> > master in math
> > before doing Pd, but if they do read books, it helps a lot
> > to try things
> > out in Pd right away.
>
> I see.  I took Marco's statement to mean that talking about Pd is
> fundamental to learning how things work in Pd.  It sounds like you're
> saying that you don't have to have a comprehensive knowledge of
> "how dsp works" before diving into Pd because using Pd is a way of
> aquiring that knowledge.  I agree with both.
>
> -Jonathan
>
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Marco Donnarumma aka TheSAD
Independent New Media Arts Professional, Performer, Teacher - Edinburgh, UK


PORTFOLIO: http://marcodonnarumma.com
LAB: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net |
http://www.flxer.net
EVENT: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net
___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-19 Thread Jonathan Wilkes



--- On Fri, 3/19/10, Roman Haefeli  wrote:

> From: Roman Haefeli 
> Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
> To: "Jonathan Wilkes" 
> Cc: "Marco Donnarumma" , pd-list@iem.at, "Matteo Sisti 
> Sette" , m...@artengine.ca
> Date: Friday, March 19, 2010, 8:11 PM
> On Fri, 2010-03-19 at 11:02 -0700,
> Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
> > 
> > --- On Fri, 3/19/10, Roman Haefeli 
> wrote:
> > 
> > > From: Roman Haefeli 
> > > Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue
> Bidule... How do these compare?
> > > To: "Marco Donnarumma" 
> > > Cc: "Jonathan Wilkes" ,
> pd-list@iem.at,
> "Matteo Sisti Sette" ,
> m...@artengine.ca
> > > Date: Friday, March 19, 2010, 6:07 PM
> > > On Fri, 2010-03-19 at 09:58 +0100,
> > > Marco Donnarumma wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Talking about Pd It's fundamental to learn
> how things
> > > works, imho.
> > > 
> > > Pd is the fundament for learning how things work.
> That was
> > > my experience
> > > (and still is). 
> > > 
> > > Roman
> > 
> > What are you getting at?  The two aren't mutually
> exclusive.
> 
> I am actually thinking that the two are complementary.
> 
> Of course, it helps a lot to have a certain level of
> knowledge in
> dsp/math/whatsover before touching Pd. I just wanted to
> point out, that
> Pd very well supports the approach of acquiring theory
> through practice.
> Concepts such as, that every sound is composed of its
> sinusoidal
> partials (just one example of so many possible), sound very
> abstract and
> are hard to explain in words. But at the same time, they
> are often quite
> easy to illustrate with Pd (see 07.additive.pd from
> 3.audio.examples). 
> 
> Of course, it is fundamental to learn how things works, but
> how do you
> learn those things? My answer is: By using Pd. Similar to
> how a two year
> old child learns the basic laws of physics by letting
> things fall down,
> throw them away, put them on other things etc, Pd lets you
> explore the
> nature of sound. I often feel the need of telling potential
> Pd users,
> that it's not necessary to have read many books and be a
> master in math
> before doing Pd, but if they do read books, it helps a lot
> to try things
> out in Pd right away.

I see.  I took Marco's statement to mean that talking about Pd is 
fundamental to learning how things work in Pd.  It sounds like you're 
saying that you don't have to have a comprehensive knowledge of 
"how dsp works" before diving into Pd because using Pd is a way of 
aquiring that knowledge.  I agree with both.

-Jonathan


  


___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare?

2010-03-19 Thread Jonathan Wilkes



--- On Fri, 3/19/10, Frank Barknecht  wrote:

> From: Frank Barknecht 
> Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, 
> compare?
> To: pd-list@iem.at
> Date: Friday, March 19, 2010, 7:08 PM
> Hallo,
> Pierre Massat hat gesagt: // Pierre Massat wrote:
> 
> > Another thing that'd be nice to make available for new
> users would be a
> > comprehensive set of generic patches, which would
> cover the whole range of
> > DSP audio. A little bit like Puckette's audio help
> patches, only on a higher
> > level (stuff like a basic drum machine, a
> comprehensive synth, granular
> > synthesis, etc). I know that these aren't impossible
> to find, but it'd be
> > nice to have it all in the same place. 
> 
> The "rj" library developed for the creation of RjDj scenes,
> but also usable
> outside, tries exactly that. It is all abstractions, all
> run on Pd vanilla, no
> externals, not complicated -path setup needed, it has IMO
> pretty good help
> files (I wrote most, so I have to say this) and it provides
> a lot of everyday
> musician's tools plus some analysis and composition
> helpers. 
> 
> It's deliberatly minimal, so that it doesn't overwhelm a
> newbie user with
> hundreds of objects.  It's philosophy is "often-needed
> batteries included". For
> example, from [list]-abs it has a "listmap", "listdrip",
> "listreduce",
> "listfilter", "listrandom" and "listnth", but not the other
> 50 or so list
> objects. The included objects will solve about 80% of your
> everyday list-use,
> for the rest, you can still resort to the full [list]-abs
> objects. Similar
> approaches have been taken for other areas.
> 
> So far it has proven to be a successful base for many
> interesting music pieces
> written in Pd for RjDj. Check out trac.rjdj.me for details.
> 
> 
> Ciao
> -- 
> Frank

I'd just add that one could start from the end of 3.audio.examples 
and 4.data.structures to get a decent overall idea of what Pd is capable 
of doing.  

The only problem with this currently is that those patches are 
quite understandably not the most beginner-friendly ones-- something like 
doc/4.data.structures/14.partialtracer.pd probably looks fairly 
intimidating to a beginner.  But if it were organized a little and given 
some friendly controls (plus maybe a feature to write the re-edited 
tracks to a .wav file) there's no reason a beginner couldn't start there 
and other places to get some pretty interesting sounds out of the computer.

-Jonathan


  


___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-19 Thread Roman Haefeli

On Fri, 2010-03-19 at 11:02 -0700, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
> 
> --- On Fri, 3/19/10, Roman Haefeli  wrote:
> 
> > From: Roman Haefeli 
> > Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these 
> > compare?
> > To: "Marco Donnarumma" 
> > Cc: "Jonathan Wilkes" , pd-list@iem.at, "Matteo Sisti 
> > Sette" , m...@artengine.ca
> > Date: Friday, March 19, 2010, 6:07 PM
> > On Fri, 2010-03-19 at 09:58 +0100,
> > Marco Donnarumma wrote:
> > 
> > > Talking about Pd It's fundamental to learn how things
> > works, imho.
> > 
> > Pd is the fundament for learning how things work. That was
> > my experience
> > (and still is). 
> > 
> > Roman
> 
> What are you getting at?  The two aren't mutually exclusive.

I am actually thinking that the two are complementary.

Of course, it helps a lot to have a certain level of knowledge in
dsp/math/whatsover before touching Pd. I just wanted to point out, that
Pd very well supports the approach of acquiring theory through practice.
Concepts such as, that every sound is composed of its sinusoidal
partials (just one example of so many possible), sound very abstract and
are hard to explain in words. But at the same time, they are often quite
easy to illustrate with Pd (see 07.additive.pd from 3.audio.examples). 

Of course, it is fundamental to learn how things works, but how do you
learn those things? My answer is: By using Pd. Similar to how a two year
old child learns the basic laws of physics by letting things fall down,
throw them away, put them on other things etc, Pd lets you explore the
nature of sound. I often feel the need of telling potential Pd users,
that it's not necessary to have read many books and be a master in math
before doing Pd, but if they do read books, it helps a lot to try things
out in Pd right away.

Btw, it was great to hear about eleven year olds working with Pd. I
wished I would have known a tool like Pd, when I was at that age,
especially in math class. Not that I had extraordinary difficulties in
understanding the matter, but it would have been so much more
interesting with a lot of formulas being translated to Pd. There is a
_huge_ didactic difference between a written representation of a formula
and Pd-patch representation with sliders and numberboxes.

Roman

___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare?

2010-03-19 Thread Frank Barknecht

Hallo,
Pierre Massat hat gesagt: // Pierre Massat wrote:

> Another thing that'd be nice to make available for new users would be a
> comprehensive set of generic patches, which would cover the whole range of
> DSP audio. A little bit like Puckette's audio help patches, only on a higher
> level (stuff like a basic drum machine, a comprehensive synth, granular
> synthesis, etc). I know that these aren't impossible to find, but it'd be
> nice to have it all in the same place. 

The "rj" library developed for the creation of RjDj scenes, but also usable
outside, tries exactly that. It is all abstractions, all run on Pd vanilla, no
externals, not complicated -path setup needed, it has IMO pretty good help
files (I wrote most, so I have to say this) and it provides a lot of everyday
musician's tools plus some analysis and composition helpers. 

It's deliberatly minimal, so that it doesn't overwhelm a newbie user with
hundreds of objects.  It's philosophy is "often-needed batteries included". For
example, from [list]-abs it has a "listmap", "listdrip", "listreduce",
"listfilter", "listrandom" and "listnth", but not the other 50 or so list
objects. The included objects will solve about 80% of your everyday list-use,
for the rest, you can still resort to the full [list]-abs objects. Similar
approaches have been taken for other areas.

So far it has proven to be a successful base for many interesting music pieces
written in Pd for RjDj. Check out trac.rjdj.me for details. 

Ciao
-- 
Frank

___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-19 Thread Jonathan Wilkes



--- On Fri, 3/19/10, Roman Haefeli  wrote:

> From: Roman Haefeli 
> Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
> To: "Marco Donnarumma" 
> Cc: "Jonathan Wilkes" , pd-list@iem.at, "Matteo Sisti 
> Sette" , m...@artengine.ca
> Date: Friday, March 19, 2010, 6:07 PM
> On Fri, 2010-03-19 at 09:58 +0100,
> Marco Donnarumma wrote:
> 
> > Talking about Pd It's fundamental to learn how things
> works, imho.
> 
> Pd is the fundament for learning how things work. That was
> my experience
> (and still is). 
> 
> Roman

What are you getting at?  The two aren't mutually exclusive.

-Jonathan


  


___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-19 Thread Roman Haefeli

On Fri, 2010-03-19 at 09:58 +0100, Marco Donnarumma wrote:

> Talking about Pd It's fundamental to learn how things works, imho.

Pd is the fundament for learning how things work. That was my experience
(and still is). 

Roman






___ 
Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de

___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-19 Thread Marco Donnarumma

> I'm almost finished revising the docs: 2.control.examples,
> 3.audio.examples, 4.data.structures, and 5.reference.  I'll post them to
> the list when I'm done (should be shortly).
>
>
cool!




> >Anyway learning Pd is _not_ easy and it doesn't have to be. Hence the
> >learning curve and learning tools could be improved, but you still should
> >be aware that if you want to be able to master such a flexible computing
> >capability you need to get your hands (and mind) dirty. I think it's
> >worth, and I wouldn't like it to be easier.
>
> I disagree-- I would like it to be easier, and it should be easier.  More
> time spent trying to figure out how dollarsym atoms get expanded is less
> time spent making music.  The last paragraph of Pd Manual 2.6.5 doesn't
> reflect the current state of Pd, btw.  Do items like that belong on the
> bug tracker?
>
>

Well, I agree It could be a better learning, but Michael stole my thought:

" If I am not interested in solving problems
algorithmically through programming, I will not use Pd but some other
software that will help me accomplish my goals via some other means
that I can understand better."





> >Studying and Teaching I found Pd can operate kind of "natural selection"
> >that sometimes is needed in some context.
>
> By that logic there should be even less documentation (or more outdated/
> erroneous docs).  But what are the characteristics that make students fit
> enough to avoid death and reproduce themselves into the next generation of
> the Pd learning environment?  As far as I can tell, Pd crashes will remain
> Pd crashes, regardless of whether the output isn't boring, so I don't
> think I understand what you mean.
>

mm.. why less documentation? Could be better and updated documentation as
you are doing. Be sure that who's studying and teaching to learn Pd (and not
to _instantly_ make music) will be very grateful (i am the first!)
ehehe, probably my statement was slightly "racist", apologies, I only mean
"what makes students fit enough to use Pd, or to die in the boredom of
User-friendly soft".
The _process_ of learning any kind of programming language play an essential
role in the way you will use it in the future.
As Michael outlined too, I don't think it would be useful to show students
there exist a supercool ready-made drum sequencer, but i prefer to teach
first how to load a sample in a table, explaining how they can get a drum
sequencer from there.
Talking about Pd It's fundamental to learn how things works, imho.




-- 
Marco Donnarumma aka TheSAD
Independent New Media Arts Professional, Performer, Teacher - Edinburgh, UK


PORTFOLIO: http://marcodonnarumma.com
LAB: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net |
http://www.flxer.net
EVENT: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net
___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare?

2010-03-18 Thread Jonathan Wilkes

--- On Fri, 3/19/10, Michal Seta  wrote:

> From: Michal Seta 
> Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, 
> compare?
> To: "Pierre Massat" 
> Cc: "PD list" , "Matteo Sisti Sette" 
> , "Marco Donnarumma" 
> Date: Friday, March 19, 2010, 5:31 AM
> Hi Pierre,

[...]

> I think that pdpedia (http://wiki.puredata.info) tried to
> address this
> issue.  Recently someone suggested to get rid of it
> because it was not
> being used much.  Perhaps it was not advertised enough
> and the
> resulting slim user-base did not provide much motivation
> to
> maintainers.  Pdpedia addresses also (in some ways)
> you earlier point,
> that of finding *about* classes.  Type "oscillator"
> for instance and
> you get hundreds of results, some pointing to various sound
> generators
> that actually fall into the category of oscillators. 
> I think pdpedia
> is a great idea and is a potential spot for gathering info
> about as
> many externs as possible.  Once again, the problem is
> in maintenance
> (this is why someone wanted to shut it down) because we all
> know that
> developers don't want to write documentation and we, users,
> composers,
> video artists, installation artists, students, lurkers and
> everyone
> else do not want to do it because we do not understand the
> developers
> and, in any case, we don't have time because we have
> deadlines in
> whatever we do.  Right?  Right.  I am guilty
> of that, too.

There's an old pddp mockup on puredata.info of a search feature.  That 
would help things out a lot.  I like the idea of pdpedia but I don't 
want to have to leave pd to find out what kind of objects are right here 
on my harddrive.

Another helpful thing would be supercollider-style stats when Pd is 
started.  I see the printout of loaded libraries, but for example I'd 
really like to know how many objects that is.  (And maybe how long it 
takes to load them.)

Also, is there any way to know how many pd-extended objects have no 
helpfiles?  I think any time clicking "Help" on an object returns the 
following...
'sorry, couldn't find help patch for "serial.pd"'
... it should be considered a bug, because for some "helpless" objects 
it's practically impossible to even figure out what library they're in to read 
their source code.

-Jonathan

___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare?

2010-03-18 Thread Michal Seta

Hi Pierre,

You raise some interesting questions.  I teach pd occasionally or just
help newbies to get their feet wet, get off the ground or simply help
with some specific projects.  I will address some of the issues you
raise below but note that my comments are not exhaustive nor
definitive:

On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Pierre Massat  wrote:
> One is the documentation of the Extra objects of Pd-extended. It seems to
> like the help browser was designed at a time when there were very little
> externals. The vanilla help is well organized and easily accessible, but
> such is not the case for the massive bulk of externals, and this is a pity
> because i keep finding wonderful new objects everyday.

I think this needs a little clarification.  While I concur that there
are some undocumented objects, I think that you are talking about the
problem of finding a suitable object for a particular task.  Right?

This was party addressed in the antique version of pddp (pd
documentation project), where help patches would also include hints
about objects that are related in some way (protocol, functionality,
alternatives etc).  I guess this practice was inspired by the MaxMSP
documentation.

Although such practice, if done diligently, would be very useful, it
is at the same time futile as someone would have to go through loads
of help patches to add similar objects that are being created
constantly.  Yes, this could be automated via scripts but then someone
would need to add this information to scripts or a database of sorts.
Maintenance.

> A way of fixing this
> would be maybe to update the list of objects on Floss more frequently as
> well as revamping the structure of the Pd's help completely (don't know how
> easy or even feasible this would be though?).

I think that pdpedia (http://wiki.puredata.info) tried to address this
issue.  Recently someone suggested to get rid of it because it was not
being used much.  Perhaps it was not advertised enough and the
resulting slim user-base did not provide much motivation to
maintainers.  Pdpedia addresses also (in some ways) you earlier point,
that of finding *about* classes.  Type "oscillator" for instance and
you get hundreds of results, some pointing to various sound generators
that actually fall into the category of oscillators.  I think pdpedia
is a great idea and is a potential spot for gathering info about as
many externs as possible.  Once again, the problem is in maintenance
(this is why someone wanted to shut it down) because we all know that
developers don't want to write documentation and we, users, composers,
video artists, installation artists, students, lurkers and everyone
else do not want to do it because we do not understand the developers
and, in any case, we don't have time because we have deadlines in
whatever we do.  Right?  Right.  I am guilty of that, too.

[snip... sorry]
> I'm saying this because i've found
> myself re-inventing the wheel more often than not, and it is always a bit
> frustrating to find out that somebody did the same thing you've been working
> on for weeks long time ago, and way better than you.

Well, this is where google and pure-data.info comes in handy.  Search
the archives, search the forums.  It is very likely that if you are
trying to do something that is more or less standard practice (chorus,
spectral delay, granular synth) someone already did it.  Probably more
than one person, even, and implementations vary wildly.

> Basically what a new user would
> need (well, at least what'd need) is a set of patches that tells him
> "Ok,
> you've seen all these commercial softwares (editors, sequencers, soft
> synths, vst plugins,etc.), well here's what's in their guts, and here's the
> basic stuff one can do with a computer in 2010."

I don't really agree with that.  This is how bloat is created.  And I
must quote matju here: "Ready-made solutions are for ready-made
problems.  For everything else there is Pure data."  Remember that Pd
is a programming language and you cannot provide all possible
solutions to everyone's taste.  What I see a lot these days is that
the attitude towards computing is slowly changing, especially in
digital arts.  A lot of people are trying to get away from read-made
solutions and they are actually getting closer to the machine.  They
pick up MaxMSP, Pd, Python, C++, Java, Processing, Arduino and many
other tools and they learn how to do stuff that the software market is
not able to provide.  Computers are more and more accessible to
people, much cheaper than 15-20 years ago, more powerful, too, and I
think that a very valid way to be creative with a computer is to learn
how to speak its language.  It is not for everyone though and it
doesn't have to be.  If I am not interested in solving problems
algorithmically through programming, I will not use Pd but some other
software that will help me accomplish my goals via some other means
that I can understand better.

> This in my view would be a
> great

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-18 Thread Jonathan Wilkes

--- On Thu, 3/18/10, Marco Donnarumma  wrote:

From: Marco Donnarumma 
Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
To: "Jonathan Wilkes" 
Cc: quietdi...@gmail.com, pd-list@iem.at
Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 6:38 PM

>Hi Jonathan,
>I think it can be, of course it is not for everybody. it was for me too :9
>
>However, as somebody already answered, few things could improve the beg >phase 
>of a learning curve.
>The plugin introduced in Pd 0.43 which shows a category dropdown menu >which 
>can be used to recall objects in a easier way and _above all_ >without knowing 
>about their existence could be one of those enhancement.
>
>Also I wonder about a stronger background color difference among few >objects 
>(i.e. a different color for [inlet]/[outlet], [send]/[receive], >or tilde 
>objects).
>And probably more recent embedded tutorials to get started (and I feel 
>>ashamed I still didn't contribute, many thanks to all the people who >already 
>did it).

I'm almost finished revising the docs: 2.control.examples, 
3.audio.examples, 4.data.structures, and 5.reference.  I'll post them to 
the list when I'm done (should be shortly).

>Anyway learning Pd is _not_ easy and it doesn't have to be. Hence the 
>>learning curve and learning tools could be improved, but you still should >be 
>aware that if you want to be able to master such a flexible computing 
>>capability you need to get your hands (and mind) dirty. I think it's >worth, 
>and I wouldn't like it to be easier.

I disagree-- I would like it to be easier, and it should be easier.  More 
time spent trying to figure out how dollarsym atoms get expanded is less 
time spent making music.  The last paragraph of Pd Manual 2.6.5 doesn't 
reflect the current state of Pd, btw.  Do items like that belong on the 
bug tracker?

>Studying and Teaching I found Pd can operate kind of "natural selection" >that 
>sometimes is needed in some context.

By that logic there should be even less documentation (or more outdated/ 
erroneous docs).  But what are the characteristics that make students fit 
enough to avoid death and reproduce themselves into the next generation of 
the Pd learning environment?  As far as I can tell, Pd crashes will remain 
Pd crashes, regardless of whether the output isn't boring, so I don't 
think I understand what you mean.

On a related note, a [sculch-gate~] object would be cool. (sculch = junk)

-Jonathan

___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare?

2010-03-18 Thread Pierre Massat

Hi all,

I only know Pd and i've been using it for only a year and a half, so i don't
have anything interesting at all concerning the comparison with other
softwares. But since many of you have been discussing Pd's documentation,
i'd like to share my own experience and point to something Pd-newbies my
like.
Although i wouldn't say that Pd is easy to learn, i believe that anybody who
has a fairly precise idea of what he wants to achieve with Pd can get a
satisfying result within a couple of months, provided that he reads the
first chapters of Miller Puckette's book and that he asks for help on either
the Pd forum or the pd-list.
Yet there are two points regarding the documentation which could be improved
in my opinion.
One is the documentation of the Extra objects of Pd-extended. It seems to
like the help browser was designed at a time when there were very little
externals. The vanilla help is well organized and easily accessible, but
such is not the case for the massive bulk of externals, and this is a pity
because i keep finding wonderful new objects everyday. A way of fixing this
would be maybe to update the list of objects on Floss more frequently as
well as revamping the structure of the Pd's help completely (don't know how
easy or even feasible this would be though?).
Another thing that'd be nice to make available for new users would be a
comprehensive set of generic patches, which would cover the whole range of
DSP audio. A little bit like Puckette's audio help patches, only on a higher
level (stuff like a basic drum machine, a comprehensive synth, granular
synthesis, etc). I know that these aren't impossible to find, but it'd be
nice to have it all in the same place. I'm saying this because i've found
myself re-inventing the wheel more often than not, and it is always a bit
frustrating to find out that somebody did the same thing you've been working
on for weeks long time ago, and way better than you. This happened to me
again a few days ago about spectral delay. Basically what a new user would
need (well, at least what'd need) is a set of patches that tells him "Ok,
you've seen all these commercial softwares (editors, sequencers, soft
synths, vst plugins,etc.), well here's what's in their guts, and here's the
basic stuff one can do with a computer in 2010." This in my view would be a
great help and would boost Pd user's creativity a great deal, because they
wouldn't have to re-invent (almost) everything from scratch, and they'd
learn very quickly what is new and what is not. This is especially true for
people who learned Pd by themselves, without taking any classes about audio
programming and digital music theory.

Anyway, the more i use it, the more i like it. Sometimes i wonder what Pd
will be like 10 years from now. Whatever it'll be i'm excited!

Cheers!

Pierre

2010/3/18 Matteo Sisti Sette 

> Marco Donnarumma escribió:
>
>
>  Well, what is reasonable is quite subjective though.
>>
>
> You have a point :)
>
>
> > Anyway I referred
>
>> to a "global" comparison, as you said the (_computing_) domain of both do
>> overlap, but I specified the importance that IMHO the community supporting
>> the project has.
>> I personally don't think the community approach of Max is comparable to
>> Pd.
>>
>
> I agree here. Well, I don't know if I agree that they are not comparable, I
> agree they are hugely different. But yes, when you need to chose between two
> "comparable" software, the kind of community surrounding them is a factor
> you have to take into account, and indeed, neither "kind of community" is
> better, it is just a matter of which one best suit your needs (i.e.: you
> prefer a company that sells the software and that can give you support for a
> fee, or that you can expect support from since you paid the software, or you
> may prefer an open source community where thanks to open source fixes and
> solutions are often quickly available).. so it's like you said
>
>
> > reading
>
>> documentation is not the only way to learn something. Again, the way you
>> look for knowledge depends just on your personal approach.
>>
>
> Yes of course; I was just pointing out a particular aspect, that is
> documentation (in a somewhat wide sense though: documentation proper i.e.
> manual; help patches; tutorials...)
>
>
>
>  (anyway there is plenty of documentation about Pd,
>>
>
> Yeah, it is not a matter of quantity ;)
>
> But however, I am a fan of Pd, don't make me feel like I am "on the
> opposite side" :)
>
>
> --
> Matteo Sisti Sette
> matteosistise...@gmail.com
> http://www.matteosistisette.com
>
> ___
> Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
> http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>
___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-18 Thread Michal Seta

On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 6:02 AM, saint  wrote:

> But I also can't wait for it to evolve into a more user friendly and
> intuitive program (not at the expense of it's simplicity though!).
>

Is that an oxymoron?


>
>  "Well, I was using Pure Data wy before it could emit a speaker
> beep..."


I was using Pd on PPC linux wy before it was big-endian friendly and the
beeps from the speakers were harsh and loud :)

-- 
./MiS
514-344-0726
http://www.creazone.ca
___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare?

2010-03-18 Thread Matteo Sisti Sette


Marco Donnarumma escribió:

Well, what is reasonable is quite subjective though. 


You have a point :)

> Anyway I referred
to a "global" comparison, as you said the (_computing_) domain of both 
do overlap, but I specified the importance that IMHO the community 
supporting the project has.

I personally don't think the community approach of Max is comparable to Pd.


I agree here. Well, I don't know if I agree that they are not 
comparable, I agree they are hugely different. But yes, when you need to 
chose between two "comparable" software, the kind of community 
surrounding them is a factor you have to take into account, and indeed, 
neither "kind of community" is better, it is just a matter of which one 
best suit your needs (i.e.: you prefer a company that sells the software 
and that can give you support for a fee, or that you can expect support 
from since you paid the software, or you may prefer an open source 
community where thanks to open source fixes and solutions are often 
quickly available).. so it's like you said


> reading
documentation is not the only way to learn something. Again, the way you 
look for knowledge depends just on your personal approach.


Yes of course; I was just pointing out a particular aspect, that is 
documentation (in a somewhat wide sense though: documentation proper 
i.e. manual; help patches; tutorials...)




(anyway there is plenty of documentation about Pd,


Yeah, it is not a matter of quantity ;)

But however, I am a fan of Pd, don't make me feel like I am "on the 
opposite side" :)


--
Matteo Sisti Sette
matteosistise...@gmail.com
http://www.matteosistisette.com

___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-18 Thread Marco Donnarumma

Hi Jonathan,
I think it can be, of course it is not for everybody. it was for me too :9

However, as somebody already answered, few things could improve the beg
phase of a learning curve.
The plugin introduced in Pd 0.43 which shows a category dropdown menu which
can be used to recall objects in a easier way and _above all_ without
knowing about their existence could be one of those enhancement.
Also I wonder about a stronger background color difference among few objects
(i.e. a different color for [inlet]/[outlet], [send]/[receive], or tilde
objects).
And probably more recent embedded tutorials to get started (and I feel
ashamed I still didn't contribute, many thanks to all the people who already
did it).

Anyway learning Pd is _not_ easy and it doesn't have to be. Hence the
learning curve and learning tools could be improved, but you still should be
aware that if you want to be able to master such a flexible computing
capability you need to get your hands (and mind) dirty. I think it's worth,
and I wouldn't like it to be easier.
Studying and Teaching I found Pd can operate kind of "natural selection"
that sometimes is needed in some context.

On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 3:26 AM, Jonathan Wilkes  wrote:

>
> --- On Wed, 3/17/10, Marco Donnarumma  wrote:
>
> From: Marco Donnarumma 
> Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these
> compare?
> To: quietdi...@gmail.com
> Cc: pd-list@iem.at
> Date: Wednesday, March 17, 2010, 11:16 AM
>
> >As many other said before, I personally think there is nothing to
> >compare. All of them are quite separate environments, and i mean not only
> >computing capabilities, flexibility and GUI, but above all each community
> >supporting the projects.
>
> >"this" is not better than "that", it's only about what fit best your
> >needs.
> >So first point out which are exactly your needs. Learning Pd can be
> >difficult and exhausting in the beg, but once you get familiar with it, I
> >can assure you it's only pleasure. And there is a world of things you
> >can't do with any other software. But you have to find out what.
>
> Hi Marco,
> What do you think makes learning Pd difficult and exhausting in the
> beginning?  Is it just a general learning curve, or are there speficic
> issues you think could be improved for the future?
>
> -Jonathan
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Marco Donnarumma aka TheSAD
Independent New Media Arts Professional, Performer, Teacher - Edinburgh, UK

PORTFOLIO: http://marcodonnarumma.com
LAB: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net |
http://www.flxer.net
EVENT: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net
___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare?

2010-03-18 Thread Marco Donnarumma

> Well I think Max and PD _are_ quite comparable; their domains do overlap
> quite a lot, though of course they are not identical.
> And though it is absurd to state that one is plainly better than the other,
> it _is_ reasonable to discuss in which aspects one is better and in which
> others the other is.
>

Well, what is reasonable is quite subjective though. Anyway I referred to a
"global" comparison, as you said the (_computing_) domain of both do
overlap, but I specified the importance that IMHO the community supporting
the project has.
I personally don't think the community approach of Max is comparable to Pd.
As concerning the documentation issue, well I think it is a constant topic
while discussing about free or open source software, but reading
documentation is not the only way to learn something. Again, the way you
look for knowledge depends just on your personal approach.
I started with Max (at university, our prof. gave us cracked copies to use),
and then I migrate to Pd _also_ because I found many people around me, or in
the different places i happened to be, who were incredibly glad and excited
while sharing their knowledge.
I'm not saying this does not happen for Max users, actually i don't know,
just explaining my experience.
(anyway there is plenty of documentation about Pd, i don't know when I will
finish to read everything, perhaps, yes, sometimes it is not so easy to
find)





On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Matteo Sisti Sette <
matteosistise...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Marco Donnarumma  wrote:
> > I personally think there is nothing to >compare. All of them are quite
> > separate environments, and i mean not only >computing capabilities,
> > flexibility and GUI, but above all each community >supporting the
> > projects.
>
> Well I think Max and PD _are_ quite comparable; their domains do overlap
> quite a lot, though of course they are not identical.
> And though it is absurd to state that one is plainly better than the other,
> it _is_ reasonable to discuss in which aspects one is better and in which
> others the other is. Especially for the sake of improving PD until it _is_
> just plainly better :))
>
> Then the answer to the original question (i.e. the subject) is: Pd rules,
> all the others just suck - just kidding here.
>
>
> By the way I once collaborated with a guy who composes electroacustic music
> and now is doing a Ph.D. at Harvard University (I made some Pd patches for a
> piece he wrote), and he was fond of Pd, preferring it over Max mainly
> because it is Open Source etc. So when he went to Harvard and everybody
> there uses Max, he still was willing to keep using Pd and keep learning Pd.
> At the end, he told me he decided to give up and start using Max; and not
> because everybody does (this guy generally is not scared of being on his
> own) but because of documentation. He said: with Max you just download
> tutorials, manuals and the like and you just have to study and you learn;
> with Pd it is not so. He often felt stuck and/or frustrated.
>
> I don't think Max is easier to learn than Pd; i really think they are
> equally difficult (or equally easy) to learn (though this is more a guess
> than an opinion, since I don't know Max enough). But this doesn't seem to be
> a unique case: I heard quite a lot of people saying they find it easier to
> learn Max. So I think it is a matter of documentation.
>
> Though it may be as well a matter of personal "taste" (just the "look and
> feel" of an application may make you feel more or less confortable).
>
>
> --
> Matteo Sisti Sette
> matteosistise...@gmail.com
> http://www.matteosistisette.com
>
>


-- 
Marco Donnarumma aka TheSAD
Independent New Media Arts Professional, Performer, Teacher - Edinburgh, UK


PORTFOLIO: http://marcodonnarumma.com
LAB: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net |
http://www.flxer.net
EVENT: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net
___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare?

2010-03-18 Thread Matteo Sisti Sette


hard off escribió:


i hope you got paid.  because he certainly is.



Yes indeed he did pay me. On an earlier occasion, in which he wasn't 
paid at all (before he entered at Harvard), he also paid me. He is a 
very nice guy :)


--
Matteo Sisti Sette
matteosistise...@gmail.com
http://www.matteosistisette.com

___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare?

2010-03-18 Thread hard off

>>
By the way I once collaborated with a guy who composes electroacustic music
and now is doing a Ph.D. at Harvard University (I made some Pd patches for a
piece he wrote)<<

i hope you got paid.  because he certainly is.
___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these, compare?

2010-03-18 Thread Matteo Sisti Sette

Marco Donnarumma  wrote:
> I personally think there is nothing to >compare. All of them are quite
> separate environments, and i mean not only >computing capabilities,
> flexibility and GUI, but above all each community >supporting the
> projects.

Well I think Max and PD _are_ quite comparable; their domains do overlap 
quite a lot, though of course they are not identical.
And though it is absurd to state that one is plainly better than the 
other, it _is_ reasonable to discuss in which aspects one is better and 
in which others the other is. Especially for the sake of improving PD 
until it _is_ just plainly better :))

Then the answer to the original question (i.e. the subject) is: Pd 
rules, all the others just suck - just kidding here.

By the way I once collaborated with a guy who composes electroacustic 
music and now is doing a Ph.D. at Harvard University (I made some Pd 
patches for a piece he wrote), and he was fond of Pd, preferring it over 
Max mainly because it is Open Source etc. So when he went to Harvard and 
everybody there uses Max, he still was willing to keep using Pd and keep 
learning Pd. At the end, he told me he decided to give up and start 
using Max; and not because everybody does (this guy generally is not 
scared of being on his own) but because of documentation. He said: with 
Max you just download tutorials, manuals and the like and you just have 
to study and you learn; with Pd it is not so. He often felt stuck and/or 
frustrated.

I don't think Max is easier to learn than Pd; i really think they are 
equally difficult (or equally easy) to learn (though this is more a 
guess than an opinion, since I don't know Max enough). But this doesn't 
seem to be a unique case: I heard quite a lot of people saying they find 
it easier to learn Max. So I think it is a matter of documentation.

Though it may be as well a matter of personal "taste" (just the "look 
and feel" of an application may make you feel more or less confortable).

--
Matteo Sisti Sette
matteosistise...@gmail.com
http://www.matteosistisette.com

___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-18 Thread tep

Sorry for previous mistake.
I feel concerned because i have been using all of these softwares. It all
started with Reaktor, which is clearly music-oriented (though some people
are able to make video games on it !). I had a lot of fun and headaches. It
was a good introduction to modular-environment. Great for synth / fx /
buffer things. It can be used as a VST but has no video support. And i think
making math in Reaktor is not very handy.

Now I can't use it anymore. Pd seems more 'austere' at first looking but
also it shows the basics you need to know in order to go on. I think it
brings to a better understanding of how things work, at least for me.

And it's cross-platform, free and quite stable. And people answer you
quickly. And it's the sexiest :)

I personally REALLY got into it while having a specific thing to accomplish.
At the beginning, learning it was difficult and blurry. It seems you can do
A LOT indeed.

In my own opinion.
___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-18 Thread tep

Hi
I have been
2010/3/18 

> Send Pd-list mailing list submissions to
>pd-list@iem.at
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>pd-list-requ...@iem.at
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>pd-list-ow...@iem.at
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Pd-list digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these
>  compare? (Jonathan Wilkes)
>   2. Re: video of Pd Workshop for 11 year olds
>  (errordevelo...@gmail.com)
>   3. Re: mp3cast~ on ubuntu 9.10 crash pd (IOhannes m zmoelnig)
>   4. Re: video of Pd Workshop for 11 year olds (Lorenzo)
>   5. Re: video of Pd Workshop for 11 year olds (Andrew Faraday)
>   6. Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
>  (saint)
>   7. Re: video of Pd Workshop for 11 year olds (Pedro Oliveira)
>
>
> --------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:26:42 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jonathan Wilkes 
> Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these
>compare?
> To: quietdi...@gmail.com, Marco Donnarumma 
> Cc: pd-list@iem.at
> Message-ID: <376196.72041...@web65616.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> --- On Wed, 3/17/10, Marco Donnarumma  wrote:
>
> From: Marco Donnarumma 
> Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these
> compare?
> To: quietdi...@gmail.com
> Cc: pd-list@iem.at
> Date: Wednesday, March 17, 2010, 11:16 AM
>
> >As many other said before, I personally think there is nothing to
> >compare. All of them are quite separate environments, and i mean not only
> >computing capabilities, flexibility and GUI, but above all each community
> >supporting the projects.
>
> >"this" is not better than "that", it's only about what fit best your
> >needs.
> >So first point out which are exactly your needs. Learning Pd can be
> >difficult and exhausting in the beg, but once you get familiar with it, I
> >can assure you it's only pleasure. And there is a world of things you
> >can't do with any other software. But you have to find out what.
>
> Hi Marco,
> What do you think makes learning Pd difficult and exhausting in the
> beginning?  Is it just a general learning curve, or are there speficic
> issues you think could be improved for the future?
>
> -Jonathan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:38:37 +
> From: errordevelo...@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [PD] video of Pd Workshop for 11 year olds
> To: pd-list@iem.at
> Message-ID: <20100318043837.gb10...@00110101.home>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Hans, that's excellent!
>
> i was quite curious how kids could react to pd ..
> hm ..i'd love to do some pd tutorials one day, and yeah i was thinking
> about kids as well!
>
> the only thing is that i couldn't check the video -
> i still don't have sound working in flash with my soundcard setup ;(
>
> may be you have the video somewhere else?
> abby/cclive doesn't support blip.tv and i tried videosnag.com ..but it
> didn't do anything ..
>
> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 01:56:00PM -0400, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:
> >
> > Here's a video of a Pd workshop I taught with 11 year old kids in New
> York.
> >  It was amazing how they picked it up and had so little fear to
> experiment:
> >
> >
> http://eyebeam.org/press/media/videos/an-introduction-to-electronic-soundscape-design
> >
> > .hc
> >
> >
> 
> >
> > Looking at things from a more basic level, you can come up with a more
> > direct solution... It may sound small in theory, but it in practice, it
> can
> > change entire economies. - Amy Smith
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
> > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
> > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:22:05 +0100
> From: IOhannes m zmoelnig 
> Subject: Re: [PD] mp3cast~ on ubuntu 9.10 crash pd
> To: Nicolas Montgermont 
> Cc: pd-li

[PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-18 Thread saint

I do think that a big snag in the learning curve for some people is the initial 
provision of only very basic building blocks.

You pretty much have to download Pd and then get Miller's book (what I did) or 
FLOSS Manual/Andy Farnell's etc. (God I really want Andy's book! Broke atm!) 
and then devote a good few hours into getting off the ground.

What should really be implemented (I've seen some screenshots for the next 
release yes??) is the right-click style access to a menu organised into say, 
primitive objects, medium and high-level abstractions.

Initial users, say the casual VST synth Mike or Michelle, just want to...
1. Crack open a subractive synth. Play it. (High level).
2. Then dismantle it, see how it works and maybe make their own modular noise 
spewers from pre-formed building blocks. (Medium level).
3. Build their own building blocks to suit their own desire/dream/whim etc. 
(Low level)

Which is what Reaktor has. (Does the newer bubbly Max have that too?). So I can 
see the original poster's point.


Don't get me wrong, I love Pd (I'm here aren't I??!). But I also can't wait for 
it to evolve into a more user friendly and intuitive program (not at the 
expense of it's simplicity though!). There'll be more of us here then.

Or do we want to be like the Fixed-gear Cyclists? All exclusive and 
haircutty??! "Well, I was using Pure Data wy before it could emit a speaker 
beep..."


John.



  ___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-17 Thread Jonathan Wilkes

--- On Wed, 3/17/10, Marco Donnarumma  wrote:

From: Marco Donnarumma 
Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
To: quietdi...@gmail.com
Cc: pd-list@iem.at
Date: Wednesday, March 17, 2010, 11:16 AM

>As many other said before, I personally think there is nothing to >compare. 
>All of them are quite separate environments, and i mean not only >computing 
>capabilities, flexibility and GUI, but above all each community >supporting 
>the projects.

>"this" is not better than "that", it's only about what fit best your >needs.
>So first point out which are exactly your needs. Learning Pd can be >difficult 
>and exhausting in the beg, but once you get familiar with it, I >can assure 
>you it's only pleasure. And there is a world of things you >can't do with any 
>other software. But you have to find out what.

Hi Marco,
 What do you think makes learning Pd difficult and exhausting in the 
beginning?  Is it just a general learning curve, or are there speficic 
issues you think could be improved for the future?

-Jonathan

___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-17 Thread Adityo Pratomo

> 2010/3/17 András Murányi 
>
>
>
>>  Remember, ancient people used to make their instruments, sometimes taking
>> a lot of time.
>> Actually, whatever i'm operating, i find it an advantage to know how it
>> works inside, and an ultimate advantage to operate my own creation.
>> 2 cents, Andras
>>
>>
> Gotta agree with that Andras :) I think the key is self contolling e.g:
> know where to stop build instrument and start make music with it :D
>
> --
> lunchboxav.wordpress.com
>
>


-- 
mataharipertama.wordpress.com
kotakmakan.multiply.com
___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-17 Thread András Murányi

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 1:58 PM, john saylor  wrote:

> ciao
>
> > Gareth Loy with the title 'The Composer Seduced into Programming'
> > "It is important to note just what the
> > seducing agent in these cases really is. It is certainly not carpentry or
> > programming, or we would have ceased as artists and become tradesmen. It
> is
> > really the will of the composer, expressed through the discipline of the
> art
> > form itself which, in all cases, not just the ones under discussion here,
> > causes the artist to stray into these seemingly distant fields."
>
> i find it beneficial to try and make explicit assumptions, in
> persuasive writing or music composing.
>
> what is the difference between artists and tradesmen? are either more
> valuable than the other? [try getting to work in a contrapuntal study]
>
> 'the will of the composer'
> that's a very evocative phrase
> what about zen composers? [john cage] what kind of will do they have?
>
> i am suspect of self importance.
> i think learning how to use something [a digital audio environment,
> pen and paper musical notation, ...] will enrich a person.
> it's all connected.
>
> a person has to make choices on how to spend their time. are they good
> choices or bad ones? it is not for me to say.
>
> i think spending time learning dsp or any tools is worthwhile. as i
> said above, i find it enriching.
>
> also, we are not machines. it is ok to have multiple interests [it
> means you are just more engaged in the world around you]. it is ok to
> fail. it is part of what makes us human [and not machine].
>
> nonetheless, machines can be very helpful.
>
>
Just to bring it back down to my simple level ;o)
indeed, many things can enrich a person's/musician's life: some programming,
a hike in the forest, even a lucky car crash!
But making your own instrument has a more direct advantage: you will know
your instument better. While you're playing it, you'll know more about
what's happening inside it, and that will certainly add something important
to your music.
Remember, ancient people used to make their instruments, sometimes taking a
lot of time.
Actually, whatever i'm operating, i find it an advantage to know how it
works inside, and an ultimate advantage to operate my own creation.
2 cents, Andras
___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-17 Thread john saylor

ciao

> Gareth Loy with the title 'The Composer Seduced into Programming'
> "It is important to note just what the
> seducing agent in these cases really is. It is certainly not carpentry or
> programming, or we would have ceased as artists and become tradesmen. It is
> really the will of the composer, expressed through the discipline of the art
> form itself which, in all cases, not just the ones under discussion here,
> causes the artist to stray into these seemingly distant fields."

i find it beneficial to try and make explicit assumptions, in
persuasive writing or music composing.

what is the difference between artists and tradesmen? are either more
valuable than the other? [try getting to work in a contrapuntal study]

'the will of the composer'
that's a very evocative phrase
what about zen composers? [john cage] what kind of will do they have?

i am suspect of self importance.
i think learning how to use something [a digital audio environment,
pen and paper musical notation, ...] will enrich a person.
it's all connected.

a person has to make choices on how to spend their time. are they good
choices or bad ones? it is not for me to say.

i think spending time learning dsp or any tools is worthwhile. as i
said above, i find it enriching.

also, we are not machines. it is ok to have multiple interests [it
means you are just more engaged in the world around you]. it is ok to
fail. it is part of what makes us human [and not machine].

nonetheless, machines can be very helpful.

-- 
\js  :-P

___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-17 Thread Adityo Pratomo

>
> mmm, I can't get what you mean here by "smoother".
> Best,
>
> M
>
>
> Ah, by saying smoother, I feel that Pd produce a more harsh noise. I can
here a little bit of click on my windows. While on my Mac,when using mlr
application (a sampler for monome) the Pd and the Max version, I also feel
that Pd produce a more harsh noise of the playback sample, a little bit of
clicking sound. Hope that clear everybody's understanding :)

Regards,
Didit
___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-17 Thread Marco Donnarumma

As many other said before, I personally think there is nothing to compare.
All of them are quite separate environments, and i mean not only computing
capabilities, flexibility and GUI, but above all each community supporting
the projects.
"this" is not better than "that", it's only about what fit best your needs.
So first point out which are exactly your needs. Learning Pd can be
difficult and exhausting in the beg, but once you get familiar with it, I
can assure you it's only pleasure. And there is a world of things you can't
do with any other software. But you have to find out what.
Of course if you don't want to spend too much time _learning_ that's a
different situation. Your needs will tell you.

But anyway, I feel that Max/MSP produce a smoother audio than Pd, is it me
> or does anyone feel this too?
>

mmm, I can't get what you mean here by "smoother".
Best,

M



Sorry for bringing this old thread up, I find Alex's opinion very
> interesting. Actually I kinda feel that using Pd, I'm stuck in the process
> of "making the instrument instead of the music" kinda situation.Even though
> at first, I can custom made an instrument specific to what I want, I ended
> up exhausted at building the instrument first, and find myself resting for
> several moments before finally finishing a composition.
>
> I recently tried Reaktor, and one thing that's best is the interface, that
> features definitely makes me interested in learning deeper into this tool.
> I
> also tried Max/MSP, and yes I love the interface, kinda more engaging to
> patch things. I also recently acquired Launchpad, (with all the monome
> emulations build using Max/MSP, I become slowly adapt to it). But either
> way, I kinda stuck with Pd because this is the first audiovisual
> environment
> programming that I know and dig. So, I think, probably it will all go down
> to which tool we are comfort with (ugh, sounds so diplomatic, hate it).
>
> But anyway, I feel that Max/MSP produce a smoother audio than Pd, is it me
> or does anyone feel this too?
>
> Regards,
>
> Didit
>



-- 
Marco Donnarumma aka TheSAD
Independent New Media Arts Professional, Performer, Teacher - Edinburgh, UK


PORTFOLIO: http://marcodonnarumma.com
LAB: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net |
http://www.flxer.net
EVENT: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net
___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-17 Thread Jonathan Wilkes

--- On Wed, 3/17/10, Lorenzo  wrote:

From: Lorenzo 
Subject: Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?
To: pd-list@iem.at
Date: Wednesday, March 17, 2010, 9:03 AM

[...]

I guess this comes up frequently in 'computer-based' music discussions.
I think it depends much on the type of music/artistic project/vision
you have... I find making the instrument for the music extremely
fascinating and much related with the musician's nature... I recently
found an article (unfortunately it's not publicly available online but
it's on Jstor music) of 1980 by Gareth Loy with the title 'The Composer
Seduced into Programming' which I guess is pretty explicative as a
title per se. I will only cite a small piece from the beginning of the
article where he is explaining the title which I feel pretty close to:
"It is important to note just what the seducing agent in these cases
really is. It is certainly not carpentry or programming, or we would
have ceased as artists and become tradesmen. It is really the will of
the composer, expressed through the discipline of the art form itself
which, in all cases, not just the ones under discussion here, causes
the artist to stray into these seemingly distant fields."

It certainly could be true in all cases, but think about how inclusive 
the phrase "the will of the composer" must then be.  The preface to 
Satie's Choral unappetizement comes to mind-- "I have put into it all I 
know about Boredom"-- plus many others that unfortunately aren't so tongue 
and-cheek about it.

-Jonathan

___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-17 Thread Thomas Grill

> the last i read about the [vst] object in Pd was that is was generally
> defective (can anyone confirm or correct this?).

Jeffrey, do you know where you read this?
I would certainly be interested to hear about bug reports.

thanks, Thomas

___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-17 Thread Lorenzo


Hi Didit,

Sorry for long post.. but the topic is ever so fascinating :)
Sorry for bringing this old thread up, I find Alex's opinion very 
interesting. Actually I kinda feel that using Pd, I'm stuck in the 
process of "making the instrument instead of the music" kinda situation.
I guess this comes up frequently in 'computer-based' music discussions. 
I think it depends much on the type of music/artistic project/vision you 
have... I find making the instrument for the music extremely fascinating 
and much related with the musician's nature... I recently found an 
article (unfortunately it's not publicly available online but it's on 
Jstor music) of 1980 by Gareth Loy with the title 'The Composer Seduced 
into Programming' which I guess is pretty explicative as a title per se. 
I will only cite a small piece from the beginning of the article where 
he is explaining the title which I feel pretty close to: "It is 
important to note just what the seducing agent in these cases really is. 
It is certainly not carpentry or programming, or we would have ceased as 
artists and become tradesmen. It is really the will of the composer, 
expressed through the discipline of the art form itself which, in all 
cases, not just the ones under discussion here, causes the artist to 
stray into these seemingly distant fields."


Even though at first, I can custom made an instrument specific to what 
I want, I ended up exhausted at building the instrument first, and 
find myself resting for several moments before finally finishing a 
composition.
It can be an exhausting activity, yes.. But so is(was) preparing a 
performance-ready score for 'traditional' music right?


I recently tried Reaktor, and one thing that's best is the interface, 
that features definitely makes me interested in learning deeper into 
this tool. I also tried Max/MSP, and yes I love the interface, kinda 
more engaging to patch things. I also recently acquired Launchpad, 
(with all the monome emulations build using Max/MSP, I become slowly 
adapt to it). But either way, I kinda stuck with Pd because this is 
the first audiovisual environment programming that I know and dig. So, 
I think, probably it will all go down to which tool we are comfort 
with (ugh, sounds so diplomatic, hate it).


But anyway, I feel that Max/MSP produce a smoother audio than Pd, is 
it me or does anyone feel this too?
I guess everyone should use the tools that work best.. although I'm not 
sure what you mean thtat the audio in MAX is 'smoother'.
My two cents: I started with Max and then switched to Pd. Eventually I 
found that although initially a little 'harder' Pd, because of the much 
less frills than Max, especially Max 5, and is much 'lower level', helps 
you maintain focus (for example no hiding mechanism means that when a 
patch is too full it's probably time to modularise.. in max you often 
end up with hidden spaghetti :).. and at the same time experiment in 
much more unplanned directions. But this is my very personal view.


Regards,

Didit

All the best,
Lorenzo.
___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2010-03-16 Thread Adityo Pratomo

Sorry for bringing this old thread up, I find Alex's opinion very
interesting. Actually I kinda feel that using Pd, I'm stuck in the process
of "making the instrument instead of the music" kinda situation.Even though
at first, I can custom made an instrument specific to what I want, I ended
up exhausted at building the instrument first, and find myself resting for
several moments before finally finishing a composition.

I recently tried Reaktor, and one thing that's best is the interface, that
features definitely makes me interested in learning deeper into this tool. I
also tried Max/MSP, and yes I love the interface, kinda more engaging to
patch things. I also recently acquired Launchpad, (with all the monome
emulations build using Max/MSP, I become slowly adapt to it). But either
way, I kinda stuck with Pd because this is the first audiovisual environment
programming that I know and dig. So, I think, probably it will all go down
to which tool we are comfort with (ugh, sounds so diplomatic, hate it).

But anyway, I feel that Max/MSP produce a smoother audio than Pd, is it me
or does anyone feel this too?

Regards,

Didit

lunchboxavlab.wordpress.com

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 11:45 PM, Alexandre Porres  wrote:

> hi,
> Here are MY thoughts:
>
>
> As a composer attending composition courses in brazilian universities I was
> presented with the idea that MAX was "professional" and "stable. and pd
> "experimental" and "unstable". Another given point is that MAX had some
> wonderful capabilities that Pd might never, giving the sense that you can
> only do some sorts of thing in MAX. But that is some load of BS in my
> opinion (I know you didn't see that coming... shocking, huh?).
>
> when it came for me to decide which to study and where to implement my
> research. It felt logical to go for a free environment, meaning that I'd be
> able to show results and present knowledge in a free way, and one wouldn't
> need to buy a software to able to check my study. But this seems more of an
> issue here in Brazil, as in some places people don't bother with the cash
> issue, and got MAX everywhere.
>
> But in Brazil, most MAX users go for the pirate version, and if you hope
> for stability, what is the point in that?
>
> The CA$H issue is greatly pertinent in this discussion, but it gets deeper
> than that. The way I see it, and you have put it in your email, is that Pd
> and MAX are in fact more powerful, and you need quite a knowledge to be able
> to design stuff. Reaktor and Bidule are easier for that matter.
>
> So my point is, it is too important that you really know what you are
> doing. You need to study DSP for christ's sake, know exactly how FFT works,
> or even Wavelets! You also need to really work hard and practice it as an
> instrument to be able to develop patching techniques in Pd or MAX.
>
> They are great "Do it yourself" environments, and now I ask, what is the
> point of spending a lot here? It seems reasonable for me to pay for other
> people to do the work for you. If this was cooking, I would pay for a chef
> to cook for me, and not spend a lot to make the meal myself...
>
> At least here in Brazil, I haven't seen people doing great and highly
> sophisticated MAX patches that would justify it being a more powerful tool.
> And i dont really use it to know myself whatever there is to it besides the
> friendlier interface and customer support. And i haven't had trouble not
> being able to use Pd in my Computer Music projects. I also have the idea
> that Pd is simpler and more straight to the point, and that MAX is heavier
> to run and has all sorts of gadgets that are there more to justify the
> investment, but that end up making it more confusing for me.
>
> It gets to a point where is rather paradoxal to me, you have a do it
> yourself environment trying to be an end-user end oriented tool.
>
> Now, Reaktor and Bidule are not that powerful and more straightforward into
> some direction. This makes them more specific tools and easier to use, and I
> see now the point of paying for those. they are more headed torwards
> end-users, and they are kind of cooking for them.
>
> Another issue comes to aesthetics. Being a free software community, stuff
> made in Pd or by Pd people tends to be more anarchic and somewhat
> standard-free. MAX, on the other hand, seems to be highly inserted into this
> really specialized niche of the traditional Computer Music environment.
> After all, it is something that comes from IRCAM, so it is natural that the
> aesthetic of MAX users usually tend to look as something related to IRCAM's
> school, and that kind of standard.
>
> But then, being a composer dealing with computer music is hard because you
> need to be both a composer and a computer science guy. The way around is
> making partnerships, and people in IRCAM actually do partnerships. So, if
> you are a composer, you need to compose and that is it... you give the
> computer stuff to a computer guy and let him bother w

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2009-11-15 Thread Alexandre Porres

hi,
Here are MY thoughts:


As a composer attending composition courses in brazilian universities I was
presented with the idea that MAX was "professional" and "stable. and pd
"experimental" and "unstable". Another given point is that MAX had some
wonderful capabilities that Pd might never, giving the sense that you can
only do some sorts of thing in MAX. But that is some load of BS in my
opinion (I know you didn't see that coming... shocking, huh?).

when it came for me to decide which to study and where to implement my
research. It felt logical to go for a free environment, meaning that I'd be
able to show results and present knowledge in a free way, and one wouldn't
need to buy a software to able to check my study. But this seems more of an
issue here in Brazil, as in some places people don't bother with the cash
issue, and got MAX everywhere.

But in Brazil, most MAX users go for the pirate version, and if you hope for
stability, what is the point in that?

The CA$H issue is greatly pertinent in this discussion, but it gets deeper
than that. The way I see it, and you have put it in your email, is that Pd
and MAX are in fact more powerful, and you need quite a knowledge to be able
to design stuff. Reaktor and Bidule are easier for that matter.

So my point is, it is too important that you really know what you are doing.
You need to study DSP for christ's sake, know exactly how FFT works, or even
Wavelets! You also need to really work hard and practice it as an instrument
to be able to develop patching techniques in Pd or MAX.

They are great "Do it yourself" environments, and now I ask, what is the
point of spending a lot here? It seems reasonable for me to pay for other
people to do the work for you. If this was cooking, I would pay for a chef
to cook for me, and not spend a lot to make the meal myself...

At least here in Brazil, I haven't seen people doing great and highly
sophisticated MAX patches that would justify it being a more powerful tool.
And i dont really use it to know myself whatever there is to it besides the
friendlier interface and customer support. And i haven't had trouble not
being able to use Pd in my Computer Music projects. I also have the idea
that Pd is simpler and more straight to the point, and that MAX is heavier
to run and has all sorts of gadgets that are there more to justify the
investment, but that end up making it more confusing for me.

It gets to a point where is rather paradoxal to me, you have a do it
yourself environment trying to be an end-user end oriented tool.

Now, Reaktor and Bidule are not that powerful and more straightforward into
some direction. This makes them more specific tools and easier to use, and I
see now the point of paying for those. they are more headed torwards
end-users, and they are kind of cooking for them.

Another issue comes to aesthetics. Being a free software community, stuff
made in Pd or by Pd people tends to be more anarchic and somewhat
standard-free. MAX, on the other hand, seems to be highly inserted into this
really specialized niche of the traditional Computer Music environment.
After all, it is something that comes from IRCAM, so it is natural that the
aesthetic of MAX users usually tend to look as something related to IRCAM's
school, and that kind of standard.

But then, being a composer dealing with computer music is hard because you
need to be both a composer and a computer science guy. The way around is
making partnerships, and people in IRCAM actually do partnerships. So, if
you are a composer, you need to compose and that is it... you give the
computer stuff to a computer guy and let him bother with it in the way he
wants. Philippe Manoury is a composer that was there when MAX came out, and
his pieces are classic MAX computer music pieces from the 80's. Now the same
pieces are being done in Pd. You ask, did Philippe change from MAX to Pd?
No, not at all. He was working with Miller Puckette in the 80's in IRCAM,
and keeps working with Miller to this date in San diego. He is just the
composer, and Miller is the computer guy... Miller wrote MAX in the 80's,
but now uses Pd which he also wrote himself.

Well, thanks for your attention on my thoughts, see you next time.

Cheers
Alex
___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

Re: [PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2009-11-15 Thread András Murányi

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 5:54 PM, Jeffrey Concepcion <
jeffreyconcepc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> From an audio processing perspective...
>
> My first introduction to a visual programming environment was Reaktor, then
> Max, then Pd. Only recently did i find out about plogue bidule. As far as
> interface goes they seem quite similar, and one obviously must consider that
> the commercial products have customer support rather than the community
> effort that is PD (which is great, don't get me wrong) and the "user
> friendliness" approach they must have in order to appeal to users.
>
> As far as i know, reaktor and plogue bidule have VST capabilities, i
> believe the last i read about the [vst] object in Pd was that is was
> generally defective (can anyone confirm or correct this?). Max seems to be
> the largest and most complex of all (The creators of the 
> Monomeand
> OHM64  both designed
> their product with max, although i'm sure it could have been with Pd just
> the same). correct me if i'm wrong, but i understand that pd and max are the
> most powerful, although i've yet to build anything that sounds as good as
> what i was able to make in reaktor, and i have no idea about the sound
> quality that can be achieved with plogue bidule.
>
> your thoughts?
>
> jeff
>

I started with Reaktor too - as far as i remember it was quality-wise
"secure" (means easy to make good sounds, hard to mess up) because really
basic elements had been introduced only later, and still not many patches
messed with them. Pd imho have been always using smaller, more basic
building blocks which always allow for all kinds of glitches.
Not an audio issue, but Reaktor does not do midi sysex, that's why i broke
up with it.

Andras
___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

[PD] Pd, Max/Msp, Reaktor, Plogue Bidule... How do these compare?

2009-11-15 Thread Jeffrey Concepcion

>From an audio processing perspective...

My first introduction to a visual programming environment was Reaktor, then
Max, then Pd. Only recently did i find out about plogue bidule. As far as
interface goes they seem quite similar, and one obviously must consider that
the commercial products have customer support rather than the community
effort that is PD (which is great, don't get me wrong) and the "user
friendliness" approach they must have in order to appeal to users.

As far as i know, reaktor and plogue bidule have VST capabilities, i believe
the last i read about the [vst] object in Pd was that is was generally
defective (can anyone confirm or correct this?). Max seems to be the largest
and most complex of all (The creators of the Monome  and
OHM64  both designed
their product with max, although i'm sure it could have been with Pd just
the same). correct me if i'm wrong, but i understand that pd and max are the
most powerful, although i've yet to build anything that sounds as good as
what i was able to make in reaktor, and i have no idea about the sound
quality that can be achieved with plogue bidule.

your thoughts?

jeff

-- 
www.avmachinists.org Puerto Rico based Art Collective/ Non-Profit Org
___
Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

41 matches

Mail list logo