Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
On Sat, 2007-03-24 at 05:54 +, padawan12 wrote: On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:55:39 -0700 shift8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: spore, not seed - sry :) looks like eno's doing a procedural / generative sound track for it! Yeah I checked that out. It's procedural music, basically what we do in puredata. pretty cool! http://www.we-make-money-not-art.com/archives/009261.php On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 16:49 -0700, shift8 wrote: my interests here are developments like the Seed game prototype, the concept of synthesizing *anything* - generic assemblers, a la the That's what I really mean by procedural audio, but with an important constraint. As opposed to synthetic sound, procedural sound is run real-time on the client. Synthetic sound *can be* computed a priori in the studio and recorded. Spore seemed to be hinting at the former, which get me very excited because it's exactly my work with physics engine tie in to the sounds, but from what I can make of their propaganda it isn't actually what they are doing. I hear that EA are using Puredata now, but still for synthetic sound. I don't actually know any examples of games working with runtime sound synthesis objects. got it - i was using the term to mean synthesis on the client... or something :) the concept of storing descriptors of sound events in the game source, and synthesising then on the client. same for terrain generation, fractal trees, etc. those are really exciting to me. there was a gamasutra article a couple of years or so ago that covers this a little, though i don't know any actual games that use it ether. they moved it to a must be logged in section for some reason, but it's a free membership for viewing: http://www.gamasutra.com/resource_guide/20030528/paul_01.shtml -- Mechanize something idiosyncratic. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
Various versions of Extended on OS X, and AFAIK all PD versions on Windows, have trouble with the [~] object. It can be replaced with: [expr~ $v1 $v2] if there are two audio signals to be compared (as in a Pulse Width Modulation application of this), or: [expr~ $v1 1] in the case you are simply converting a phasor~ to a balanced square wave. best, d. Thomas Mayer wrote: You'll need [~] from Zexy plus [eadsr~] and [svf~] externals. You can also hear the synth in use: http://thomas.dergrossebruder.org/misc/residuum-in_the_swamp.ogg -- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ---Oblique Strategy # 199: What would make this really successful? ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
very diverse sound! i would be also very interested in the (are they 909?) kick and the clap. have you done them in pd? roman On Mon, 2007-03-26 at 17:37 +0200, Thomas Mayer wrote: hard off wrote: have you made a good oldschool pd synth? anything i make sounds like some roland groovebox from the 90's. anyone got any cool old rave sounds? After all this discussion about hard bass synths, I've made an abstraction with four pulse synth. Pulsewidth modulation can be done via the right inlet, e.g. applying [osc~ 0.2] | [avg~] | [abs] to it. You'll need [~] from Zexy plus [eadsr~] and [svf~] externals. You can also hear the synth in use: http://thomas.dergrossebruder.org/misc/residuum-in_the_swamp.ogg cu Thomas plain text document attachment (hoover~.pd) #N canvas 545 280 496 600 10; #X obj 33 -17 inlet; #X obj 134 -23 inlet; #X obj 253 -18 inlet; #X obj 308 -18 inlet; #X obj 359 -17 inlet; #X obj 187 458 outlet~; #X text 33 -36 freq; #X text 133 -38 vel; #X text 248 -35 cutoff; #X text 312 -38 res; #X text 355 -38 pulsewidth; #X obj 123 294 svf~ low; #X obj 50 190 +~; #X obj 210 203 +~; #X obj 181 164 *~ 0.5; #X obj 263 168 *~ 0.3; #X obj 122 226 +~; #X obj 95 160 *~ 0.5; #X obj 8 139 pulsewidth~; #X obj 185 373 *~; #X obj 186 422 *~; #X obj 200 293 eadsr~ 20 220 0.5 180; #X obj 179 9 sel 0; #X obj 374 294 / 127; #X msg 183 41 0; #X obj 81 97 * 0.97; #X obj 163 100 * 1.02; #X obj 226 97 * 1.11; #X obj 94 136 pulsewidth~; #X obj 180 136 pulsewidth~; #X obj 265 137 pulsewidth~; #X obj 411 31 loadbang; #X msg 410 70 0.5; #X connect 0 0 18 0; #X connect 0 0 25 0; #X connect 0 0 26 0; #X connect 0 0 27 0; #X connect 1 0 22 0; #X connect 1 0 21 0; #X connect 2 0 11 1; #X connect 3 0 11 2; #X connect 4 0 18 1; #X connect 4 0 28 1; #X connect 4 0 29 1; #X connect 4 0 30 1; #X connect 11 0 19 0; #X connect 12 0 16 0; #X connect 13 0 16 1; #X connect 14 0 13 0; #X connect 15 0 13 1; #X connect 16 0 11 0; #X connect 17 0 12 1; #X connect 18 0 12 0; #X connect 19 0 20 0; #X connect 20 0 5 0; #X connect 21 0 19 1; #X connect 22 1 23 0; #X connect 22 1 24 0; #X connect 23 0 20 1; #X connect 24 0 18 2; #X connect 24 0 28 2; #X connect 24 0 29 2; #X connect 24 0 30 2; #X connect 25 0 28 0; #X connect 26 0 29 0; #X connect 27 0 30 0; #X connect 28 0 17 0; #X connect 29 0 14 0; #X connect 30 0 15 0; #X connect 31 0 32 0; #X connect 32 0 18 1; #X connect 32 0 28 1; #X connect 32 0 29 1; #X connect 32 0 30 1; plain text document attachment (pulsewidth~.pd) #N canvas 202 290 450 401 10; #X obj 65 33 inlet; #X obj 127 36 inlet; #X obj 181 37 inlet; #X text 62 14 freq; #X text 109 13 pulsewidth; #X text 185 15 reset; #X obj 67 160 hip~ 5; #X obj 67 188 outlet~; #X obj 66 100 ~ \$2; #X obj 65 70 phasor~ \$1; #X obj 67 130 -~; #X obj 151 94 expr 1 - \$2; #X connect 0 0 9 0; #X connect 1 0 8 1; #X connect 1 0 11 0; #X connect 2 0 9 1; #X connect 6 0 7 0; #X connect 8 0 10 0; #X connect 9 0 8 0; #X connect 10 0 6 0; #X connect 11 0 10 1; ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
padawan12 wrote: Cool, that's an efficient PWM osc. It has a clean sound, more prophet than juno. What is svf~? svf~ is a state variable filter with a great implementation of resonance IMHO. cu Thomas -- Prisons are needed only to provide the illusion that courts and police are effective. They're a kind of job insurance. (Leto II. in: Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune) http://thomas.dergrossebruder.org/ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
Hallo, Thomas Mayer hat gesagt: // Thomas Mayer wrote: padawan12 wrote: Cool, that's an efficient PWM osc. It has a clean sound, more prophet than juno. What is svf~? svf~ is a state variable filter with a great implementation of resonance IMHO. There are different versions, though. I know of at least two [svf~]s. Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:55:39 -0700 shift8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: spore, not seed - sry :) looks like eno's doing a procedural / generative sound track for it! Yeah I checked that out. It's procedural music, basically what we do in puredata. http://www.we-make-money-not-art.com/archives/009261.php On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 16:49 -0700, shift8 wrote: my interests here are developments like the Seed game prototype, the concept of synthesizing *anything* - generic assemblers, a la the That's what I really mean by procedural audio, but with an important constraint. As opposed to synthetic sound, procedural sound is run real-time on the client. Synthetic sound *can be* computed a priori in the studio and recorded. Spore seemed to be hinting at the former, which get me very excited because it's exactly my work with physics engine tie in to the sounds, but from what I can make of their propaganda it isn't actually what they are doing. I hear that EA are using Puredata now, but still for synthetic sound. I don't actually know any examples of games working with runtime sound synthesis objects. -- Mechanize something idiosyncratic. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
spore, not seed - sry :) looks like eno's doing a procedural / generative sound track for it! http://www.we-make-money-not-art.com/archives/009261.php On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 16:49 -0700, shift8 wrote: my interests here are developments like the Seed game prototype, the concept of synthesizing *anything* - generic assemblers, a la the -- Mechanize something idiosyncratic. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
Hallo, shift8 hat gesagt: // shift8 wrote: A personal favourite of mine then is F.R. Moore's Elements of Computer Music, but it doesn't fit your description. But I come back to it again and again, while my CMT is collecting dust. ok, but i'm intrigued - i've almost always been a fan of your pd studies, and appreciate that often that's exactly what they are - illustrations of less then obvious techniques. this book inspires that to some extent? Not more than the others. But Elements is *the* classic textbook on computer music, everything - Dodges/Jerse, Roads - else came afterwards, and it's still one of the best written books in that area, has tons of useful source code and it starts with explain the Fourier Transform instead of putting it somewhere in the middle. Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:56:46 -0400 Chuckk Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/16/07, padawan12 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 06:54:40 -0700 shift8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As Chuckk and some of the other mathematicians have said here, some esoteric pure math like operator theory subsumes the whole subject, because Wait, what? I wish I was a mathematician. Do I come across that way? I don't know what operator theory is, but I guess if it's related to what I've said about music cognition, then I have some idea. One k too many, I meant t'other Charlie :) I'm sure C.Henry once said there was something to be said for looking at operator theory, maybe I totally misunderstood because thats well beyond me. sound is about changes and transformations, but I wonder what other peoples top 10 'must have' concepts are. I suppose it depends on your goals, for example a lot of composers learn a disproportionate amount of stats and distributions. I'm humbled by those guys. I borrowed an extra book from my probability teacher (since probability class at an art school is kind of tame), hoping to understand Gaussian, Poisson, etc., after seeing them in the Csound manual, but I'm kind of marooned. Can you remember what it was? I say disproportionate, but really from ignorance of use in composition. For sounds generally they are useful. The times I've encountered that theory was with water, where I found bilinear exponential to be useful, gaussian normal and 1/f for damping effects. I think there was bit of talk on this list about perlin noise and somebody mentioned 3D terrain generation, I'm generally interested in that and other natural distributions that can be used for textutred extents. I think if I understood more behind the statistical theories I could link them better to observed physical behaviours. But there's a lot to think about, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability_distribution Having the graphs printed on the right is really useful because in stats talk some familiar curves are called by different names. Probably half of them are no use for sound applications at all. Poisson should be useful for rain and breaking glass and quite sparse events I guess. Also I thought all the tons of stats work that's been done on earthquakes is probably useful to model any type of frictional excitation generally, I mean if it works for tectonic plates aren't the same principles there between a violin bow and a string? You never apprehend the object as a whole, because you don't know what comes next. Then again, I just apprehended that bottle of lager as a whole, so I'm not sure if I'm making much sense... I think beer is triangular, up to a point everything improves linearly, then it all turns to bollocks and goes downhill at roughly the same rate:) peace, Andy Viva la dialectic. -Chuckk -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
Hallo, Frank Barknecht hat gesagt: // Frank Barknecht wrote: Not more than the others. But Elements is *the* classic textbook on computer music, everything - Dodges/Jerse, Roads - else came afterwards Ah, sorry, I got that wrong: The first edition of the Dogde/Jerse is older than Elements of ... Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
On 16/03/2007, at 22.26, padawan12 wrote: One k too many, I meant t'other Charlie :) I'm sure C.Henry once said there was something to be said for looking at operator theory, maybe I totally misunderstood because thats well beyond me. You might think of this email: http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2006-08/040561.html Two side notes: - 1 - It would be cool if people have a bibtex or other reference file to share. There often come some reference to some PDF that someone wrote up to a proceeding or to some journal. And often they are directly linked to Pd, and at other times they are about a general dsp/ synthesis topic. I ask since while these mastodon and influential text books are good there is a lot of stuff spread out in journals and proceedings that are worth reading and which are detailed and interesting on it's own. - 2 - The relates to a prayer i have been meaning to say: Some of the cool stuff people make or implement in Pd often use some technique or are inspired by some article (or part of a book). It would be really nice with more references in those patches. Note that i don't say that since i'm lazy and just don't bother to ready the books mentioned in this thread - in fact i can't wait to read them and have been meaning to for a while, but don't have had the time. I say that since i don't have a music or new-media background hence it's hard to put thing into an over all picture of what is techniques are about - much like what i think is shift8 motivation for the request, to get a picture of what is out there and what does it do. I also believe that adding such lill info in patches, that i request in my prayer, will aid the use Pd in conventional (university courses) as well as unconventional (workshops, self-learning) learning environments. And yeah. Big up to the community power. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
On 3/16/07, padawan12 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:56:46 -0400 Chuckk Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/16/07, padawan12 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As Chuckk and some of the other mathematicians have said here, some esoteric pure math like operator theory subsumes the whole subject, because Wait, what? I wish I was a mathematician. Do I come across that way? I don't know what operator theory is, but I guess if it's related to what I've said about music cognition, then I have some idea. One k too many, I meant t'other Charlie :) I'm sure C.Henry once said there was something to be said for looking at operator theory, maybe I totally misunderstood because thats well beyond me. I realized after I posted that you must have meant him, but alas I was too tipsy to respond again. sound is about changes and transformations, but I wonder what other peoples top 10 'must have' concepts are. I suppose it depends on your goals, for example a lot of composers learn a disproportionate amount of stats and distributions. I'm humbled by those guys. I borrowed an extra book from my probability teacher (since probability class at an art school is kind of tame), hoping to understand Gaussian, Poisson, etc., after seeing them in the Csound manual, but I'm kind of marooned. Can you remember what it was? I say disproportionate, but really from ignorance What what was? The Csound opcode? I do think of it as overkill for synthesis purposes, but people use Csound for lots of other purposes. I guess for algorithmic composition that kind of specificity is indispensible. You never apprehend the object as a whole, because you don't know what comes next. Then again, I just apprehended that bottle of lager as a whole, so I'm not sure if I'm making much sense... I think beer is triangular, up to a point everything improves linearly, then it all turns to bollocks and goes downhill at roughly the same rate:) It might have been smoother if I had distributed the beer more uniformly across the 10 minutes I took to drink it. Or I could have used a smaller hop size to get more gradual changes. -Chuckk -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
Nice pun! ~Kyle On 3/16/07, Chuckk Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It might have been smoother if I had distributed the beer more uniformly across the 10 minutes I took to drink it. Or I could have used a smaller hop size to get more gradual changes. -- http://theradioproject.com http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com (()()()(()))()()())( (())(())()((( ))(__ _())(()))___ (((000)))oOO ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:06:37 -0400 Chuckk Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What what was? The Csound opcode? No the book on stats for music applications. I do think of it as overkill for synthesis purposes, but people use Csound for lots of other purposes. I guess for algorithmic composition that kind of specificity is indispensible. I'd argue for its audio precision, but then it's not realtime (by design) in the same way that Pd is. Not sure what control stuff you could do in csound that you couldn't in Pd (?) Never really loved the score-orchestra dichotomy either, without that wall to negotiate I think you have more freedom in instrument design and in generation. It might have been smoother if I had distributed the beer more uniformly across the 10 minutes I took to drink it. Or I could have used a smaller hop size to get more gradual changes. Hop size, yeah :) ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
On 3/17/07, padawan12 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:06:37 -0400 Chuckk Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What what was? The Csound opcode? No the book on stats for music applications. Alas, it is merely a probability textbook with a little more detail than the one we're using in class; it isn't geared towards music. I do think of it as overkill for synthesis purposes, but people use Csound for lots of other purposes. I guess for algorithmic composition that kind of specificity is indispensible. I'd argue for its audio precision, but then it's not realtime (by design) in the same way that Pd is. Not sure what control stuff you could do in csound that you couldn't in Pd (?) Never really loved the score-orchestra dichotomy either, without that wall to negotiate I think you have more freedom in instrument design and in generation. I love Csound for a bunch of reasons. The score format is definitely not one of them. The csoundapi~ Pd object is awesome, though, and now supports multiple instances. At the moment, I'm working with a 4-movement microtonal sonata I wrote with my Pd JIsequencer and translated to a Csound score. I find it much easier to control synthesis and production with Csound. I think just because it has higher-level stuff. It's also older and has more contributors. But I bet for most people the bottom line is whether they prefer to work with text or graphics. I like both. I'm not sure why, but it seems like the Csound and Pd camps are almost mutually exclusive. -Chuckk -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
Would you please be willing to share some examples of using the CSound external with Pd? I have it, but have not really done much with it. ~Kyle On 3/16/07, Chuckk Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/17/07, padawan12 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:06:37 -0400 Chuckk Hubbard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What what was? The Csound opcode? No the book on stats for music applications. Alas, it is merely a probability textbook with a little more detail than the one we're using in class; it isn't geared towards music. I do think of it as overkill for synthesis purposes, but people use Csound for lots of other purposes. I guess for algorithmic composition that kind of specificity is indispensible. I'd argue for its audio precision, but then it's not realtime (by design) in the same way that Pd is. Not sure what control stuff you could do in csound that you couldn't in Pd (?) Never really loved the score-orchestra dichotomy either, without that wall to negotiate I think you have more freedom in instrument design and in generation. I love Csound for a bunch of reasons. The score format is definitely not one of them. The csoundapi~ Pd object is awesome, though, and now supports multiple instances. At the moment, I'm working with a 4-movement microtonal sonata I wrote with my Pd JIsequencer and translated to a Csound score. I find it much easier to control synthesis and production with Csound. I think just because it has higher-level stuff. It's also older and has more contributors. But I bet for most people the bottom line is whether they prefer to work with text or graphics. I like both. I'm not sure why, but it seems like the Csound and Pd camps are almost mutually exclusive. -Chuckk -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- http://theradioproject.com http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com (()()()(()))()()())( (())(())()((( ))(__ _())(()))___ (((000)))oOO ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
I'm always embarrassed to share my patches, as I'm not much of a programmer and they tend to be really haphazard. So far I've mostly used it to get a feel for Csound opcodes, and of course to have better GUI control. I have one for grain3 and one for testing different filter opcodes. Careful with the filter tester. For some reason the output of reson is like ten thousand times as high as any of the others. Like I said, you can now run sound from multiple instances, so csoundapi~ objects can feed into each other, if you have some reason to do that... At any rate, it beats having one csoundapi~ object and having everything send to the same subpatch to process. -Chuckk On 3/16/07, Kyle Klipowicz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would you please be willing to share some examples of using the CSound external with Pd? I have it, but have not really done much with it. ~Kyle #N canvas 27 173 1216 644 12; #X obj 223 502 dac~; #X msg 631 240 event e; #X msg 30 110 control kcps1 \$1; #X floatatom 170 63 5 0 0 0 - - -; #X msg 170 110 control kphs1 \$1; #X msg 30 190 control kgdur1 \$1; #X obj 416 327 print three; #X obj 470 355 print four; #X floatatom 30 142 5 0 0 0 - - -; #X obj 30 164 / 1000; #X msg 366 173 reset; #X msg 154 265 run \$1; #X obj 154 245 tgl 15 0 empty empty empty 17 7 0 10 -262144 -1 -1 1 1; #X floatatom 30 63 5 0 0 0 - - -; #X obj 30 85 / 100; #X msg 86 37 280; #X msg 100 138 155; #X obj 632 -48 notein 1; #X msg 253 59 156; #X obj 791 -16 moses 0.001; #X obj 796 101 spigot; #X msg 825 75 1; #X msg 859 75 0; #X obj 632 43 spigot; #X msg 756 17 1; #X msg 791 17 0; #X obj 324 -2 loadbang; #X obj 231 392 lop~ 400; #X obj 319 391 lop~ 400; #X floatatom 160 343 5 0 0 0 - - -; #X obj 170 85 / 100; #X obj 632 68 t f f; #X obj 632 149 pack 0 0 0; #X obj 707 98 / 1000; #X obj 707 124 + 1; #X msg 796 125 control off \$1; #X msg 631 215 event i \$3 0 0.1 \$1 \$2 \, control off -999; #X obj 324 282 csoundapi~ midigrain3.csd; #X msg 324 25 set kcps1 kcps2 kcps3 kphs1 kgdur1 off offr kthresh; #X text 703 -48 MIDI through PD; #X text 920 125 noteoff message; #X text 114 322 cutoff; #X text 715 146 csound allows decimal instrument names to create different instances of the same instrument that don't interrupt each other. this pack object allows each note number to start a different instance \, as 1.06 \, 1.061 \, etc.; #X text 21 31 Formant; #X text 17 211 Grain duration; #X text 153 38 Normalized location; #X text 890 -15 noteon or noteoff?; #X text 671 449 MIDI/PD control of Csound's grain3; #X connect 1 0 37 0; #X connect 2 0 37 0; #X connect 3 0 30 0; #X connect 4 0 37 0; #X connect 5 0 37 0; #X connect 8 0 9 0; #X connect 9 0 5 0; #X connect 10 0 37 0; #X connect 11 0 37 0; #X connect 12 0 11 0; #X connect 13 0 14 0; #X connect 14 0 2 0; #X connect 15 0 14 0; #X connect 16 0 9 0; #X connect 17 0 23 0; #X connect 17 0 20 0; #X connect 17 1 19 0; #X connect 18 0 30 0; #X connect 19 0 25 0; #X connect 19 0 21 0; #X connect 19 1 24 0; #X connect 19 1 22 0; #X connect 19 1 32 1; #X connect 20 0 35 0; #X connect 21 0 20 1; #X connect 22 0 20 1; #X connect 23 0 31 0; #X connect 24 0 23 1; #X connect 25 0 23 1; #X connect 26 0 38 0; #X connect 26 0 12 0; #X connect 27 0 0 0; #X connect 28 0 0 1; #X connect 29 0 27 1; #X connect 29 0 28 1; #X connect 30 0 4 0; #X connect 31 0 32 0; #X connect 31 1 33 0; #X connect 32 0 36 0; #X connect 33 0 34 0; #X connect 34 0 32 2; #X connect 35 0 37 0; #X connect 36 0 37 0; #X connect 37 0 27 0; #X connect 37 1 28 0; #X connect 37 2 6 0; #X connect 37 3 7 0; #X connect 38 0 37 0; midigrain3.csd Description: Binary data csapifiltertest.csd Description: Binary data #N canvas 351 45 916 710 12; #X msg 172 320 control freq \$1; #X msg 328 276 control q \$1; #X obj 356 40 vsl 15 200 0 100 0 0 empty empty empty 0 -9 0 10 -262144 -1 -1 1000 1; #X floatatom 357 254 5 0 0 0 - - -; #X obj 281 40 vsl 15 200 0 2000 0 0 empty empty empty 0 -9 0 10 -262144 -1 -1 1200 1; #X floatatom 281 246 5 0 0 0 - - -; #X obj 184 449 dac~; #X obj 598 308 phasor~; #X floatatom 573 267 5 0 0 0 - - -; #X obj 598 333 *~; #X floatatom 669 259 5 0 0 0 - - -; #X obj 669 284 / 100; #X obj 76 494 env~; #X floatatom 76 522 5 0 0 0 - - -; #X obj 478 41 vsl 15 200 0 100 0 0 empty empty empty 0 -9 0 10 -262144 -1 -1 1500 1; #X floatatom 478 250 5 0 0 0 - - -; #X msg 406 305 control gain \$1; #X msg 494 434 rezzy; #X msg 503 458 butterlp; #X msg 512 482 butterbp; #X msg 527 504 reson; #X msg 530 529 lowpass2; #X msg 550 554 tone; #X msg 409 473 raw; #X msg 292 647 control filter \$1; #X obj 335 577 route raw rezzy butterlp butterbp reson lowpass2 tone ; #X msg 331 603 0; #X msg 380 601 1; #X msg 439 605 2; #X msg 504 604 3; #X msg 566 607 4; #X msg 625 609 5; #X msg 690 609 6; #X msg 33 282 set freq q gain switch filter; #X msg 95 390 run \$1; #X obj 74 375 tgl 15 0 empty empty empty 17 7 0 10 -262144 -1 -1 0 1; #X msg 254 452 reset; #X msg 307 449 compile; #X obj 33 248 loadbang; #X text 314 16 Q/bw depending; #X
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
shift8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: sounds perfect - amazon i presume? cc would be dope tho... If you're on a budget you can always try http://www.abebooks.com. ./MiS ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
On 15/03/2007, at 16.24, padawan12 wrote: I thought [lowpass] and [highpass] were vanilla. I found them in externals/ggee/filters/. They are in 0.39.2-extended- test7 as fx [ggee/highpass~] or after [import ggee]. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
dude - you are a ninja. uhm, i mean, a jedi. seriously - i want to emulate you a bit when i grow up ;P that said, what resources would you recommend that illustrate calculus as used for signal processing, but from a more functional point of view as opposed to a theoretical one. i know there are dsp chip programming guides for engineering, but there seems to be only how and not the why in most cases there. too theoretical of descriptions makes it difficult for me to visualize the action or imagine the sonic implications of the theory being discussed. personally, i find that the application of theories make much more sense than the abstract theories themselves. maybe it's brain damage, or perhaps plain 'ol ignorance. but anyway, here's a simple example: someone tells me an empirical definition of the nyquist theory, it's hard to get my head around. but if someone says hey, you can't sample a frequency that is = 1/2 of the sample rate, because the wavelength is too short in duration to fit sample boundaries, and it causes distortions that are related to the frequency being sampled. that totally makes sense. i can picture that from a functional point of view, and then have a much easier time with the math an theory of it. are there any resources, books, etc out that approach the subject of dsp in a style like this? thanks and high regards, star On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 15:24 +, padawan12 wrote: [pow~] is from cyclone, I think in the case I used it (pow 2) you can replace it with an equivilent [expr~] expression or [*~]. I thought [lowpass] and [highpass] were vanilla. They are needed to set the coeffs for biquad~ On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:49:29 -0800 Josh Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i seem to be missing: lowpass, highpass and pow~ running 0.39.2-extended-test7 on winxp -josh padawan12 wrote: Sorry Hardoff, scratch that last load of rubbish. The parasite synth is the wrong patch, and I thought I was talking about different oscillators, it should have been something more like the ones here. The oscillator is a dual-slope one in hoover-triangles.pd, much easier to pull out than the last mess. Another take is the hoover-pwm.pd, which is a juno voice basically, it's much brighter and fizzy down low. It just depends what you want more in the low registers, up high theres not so much difference. One is pulse width mod of a square, the other is slope mod of a triangle, both have a bit of frequency lfo on too at about 5 Hz. A fat Juno hoover noise uses the fast chorus so there's one on both versions. Each has the same sequence so you can compare the sounds. All the hoover flavours have a different character, like a highpass resonant filter makes an interesting addition. But what they share in common is a busy sound made by having 3 or 4 detuned components. Juno is a pwm + saw + square mix, with the square an octave down. On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:34:01 +0900 hard off [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: andy's tokyo techno one is cool. but i want hoovers. i keep try to make them and they always suck. there must have been a secret ingredient that i am forgetting. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- tasty electronic music vittles -- bluevitriol.com the only music blog you need-- playtherecords.com you are the dj. interactive music -- improbableorchestra.com random observations of the bizarre -- vitriolix.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Mechanize something idiosyncratic. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
Not sure if it's exactly what you are after, but the computer musical tutorial by Curtis Roads, takes you through it all in a not too scientific/mathematic way. Actually I think it accompanies PD extremely well. http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Music-Tutorial-Curtis-Roads/dp/0262680823/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-5380871-4068156?ie=UTF8s=booksqid=1173978334sr=8-1 I hope you'll find it useful. Cheers! Thomas - Original Message - From: shift8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: padawan12 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: pd-list@iem.at; Josh Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 6:54 AM Subject: Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths dude - you are a ninja. uhm, i mean, a jedi. seriously - i want to emulate you a bit when i grow up ;P that said, what resources would you recommend that illustrate calculus as used for signal processing, but from a more functional point of view as opposed to a theoretical one. i know there are dsp chip programming guides for engineering, but there seems to be only how and not the why in most cases there. too theoretical of descriptions makes it difficult for me to visualize the action or imagine the sonic implications of the theory being discussed. personally, i find that the application of theories make much more sense than the abstract theories themselves. maybe it's brain damage, or perhaps plain 'ol ignorance. but anyway, here's a simple example: someone tells me an empirical definition of the nyquist theory, it's hard to get my head around. but if someone says hey, you can't sample a frequency that is = 1/2 of the sample rate, because the wavelength is too short in duration to fit sample boundaries, and it causes distortions that are related to the frequency being sampled. that totally makes sense. i can picture that from a functional point of view, and then have a much easier time with the math an theory of it. are there any resources, books, etc out that approach the subject of dsp in a style like this? thanks and high regards, star On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 15:24 +, padawan12 wrote: [pow~] is from cyclone, I think in the case I used it (pow 2) you can replace it with an equivilent [expr~] expression or [*~]. I thought [lowpass] and [highpass] were vanilla. They are needed to set the coeffs for biquad~ On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:49:29 -0800 Josh Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i seem to be missing: lowpass, highpass and pow~ running 0.39.2-extended-test7 on winxp -josh padawan12 wrote: Sorry Hardoff, scratch that last load of rubbish. The parasite synth is the wrong patch, and I thought I was talking about different oscillators, it should have been something more like the ones here. The oscillator is a dual-slope one in hoover-triangles.pd, much easier to pull out than the last mess. Another take is the hoover-pwm.pd, which is a juno voice basically, it's much brighter and fizzy down low. It just depends what you want more in the low registers, up high theres not so much difference. One is pulse width mod of a square, the other is slope mod of a triangle, both have a bit of frequency lfo on too at about 5 Hz. A fat Juno hoover noise uses the fast chorus so there's one on both versions. Each has the same sequence so you can compare the sounds. All the hoover flavours have a different character, like a highpass resonant filter makes an interesting addition. But what they share in common is a busy sound made by having 3 or 4 detuned components. Juno is a pwm + saw + square mix, with the square an octave down. On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:34:01 +0900 hard off [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: andy's tokyo techno one is cool. but i want hoovers. i keep try to make them and they always suck. there must have been a secret ingredient that i am forgetting. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- tasty electronic music vittles -- bluevitriol.com the only music blog you need-- playtherecords.com you are the dj. interactive music -- improbableorchestra.com random observations of the bizarre -- vitriolix.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Mechanize something idiosyncratic. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
Hallo, shift8 hat gesagt: // shift8 wrote: are there any resources, books, etc out that approach the subject of dsp in a style like this? I think, without some abstraction (sic!) one wouldn't get far with Pd. It's just not a tool for ignoring certain rather abstract issues. But I don't think you're looking for such a tool anyways. So for starters I would recommend Computer Music by Dodge/Jerse. It doesn't skip the necessary math, but has a good way of explaining it and illustrating its use from a practical POV. It's definitly a book every aspiring Pd user should read. I won't say the same of the Computer Music Tutorial, which IMO often is a bit to, uhm, referential: It's very complete in its scope, but too often just directs you to a paper or another book if you want to know the real details. And it's too heavy to carry around in your bag. A personal favourite of mine then is F.R. Moore's Elements of Computer Music, but it doesn't fit your description. But I come back to it again and again, while my CMT is collecting dust. Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
On 15/03/2007, at 14.54, shift8 wrote: are there any resources, books, etc out that approach the subject of dsp in a style like this? There is also Music: a Mathematical Offering by Dave Benson URL: http://www.maths.abdn.ac.uk/~bensondj/html/maths-music.html There is a free and regularly updated PDF version on that site. Also it was reviewed in the February issue of The Wire Mag. From the TOC: 7. Digital music 7.1 Digital signals 7.2 Dithering 7.3 WAV and MP3 files 7.4 MIDI 7.5 Delta functions and sampling 7.6 Nyquist's theorem 7.7 The z-transform 7.8 Digital filters 7.9 The discrete Fourier transform 7.10 The fast Fourier transform 8. Synthesis 8.1 Introduction 8.2 Envelopes and LFOs 8.3 Additive synthesis 8.4 Physical modeling 8.5 The Karplus-Strong algorithm 8.6 Filter analysis for the Karplus-Strong algorithm 8.7 Amplitude and frequency modulation 8.8 The Yamaha DX7 and FM synthesis 8.9 Feedback, or self-modulation 8.10 CSound 8.11 FM synthesis using CSound 8.12 Simple FM instruments 8.13 Further techniques in CSound 8.14 Other methods of synthesis 8.15 The phase vocoder 8.16 Chebychev polynomials I like this topic. In fact is was thinking about requesting folks bibtex files for inspiration. Anyone? ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
Funny, I tend to recommend two books to people: the Dodge/Jerse one for those who aren't mathematical (like myself), and the Roads one (the CMT) for those who are. Keeping in mind that whole chapters of the revised Dodge/Jerse--basically all the chapters on anything which are contemporary like granular synthesis--have been lifted almost verbatim from Curtis Roads' works, the Dodge/Jerse book is an excellent introduction. I still find that the CMT is like a bible, and when I'm scratching my head I can browse through it to find the right starting point. But it would be much more incomprehensible without the headstart I got from the Dodge/Jerse book. best, d. Frank Barknecht wrote: I think, without some abstraction (sic!) one wouldn't get far with Pd. It's just not a tool for ignoring certain rather abstract issues. But I don't think you're looking for such a tool anyways. So for starters I would recommend Computer Music by Dodge/Jerse. It doesn't skip the necessary math, but has a good way of explaining it and illustrating its use from a practical POV. It's definitly a book every aspiring Pd user should read. I won't say the same of the Computer Music Tutorial, which IMO often is a bit to, uhm, referential: It's very complete in its scope, but too often just directs you to a paper or another book if you want to know the real details. And it's too heavy to carry around in your bag. -- derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ---Oblique Strategy # 9: Adding on ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
thanks man, i'll check this out - but, for the record, i'm not put off by the maths so much (they are needed to implement, after all :), but i am most interested in practical implementations w/ and explorations of the implications of the techniques - that's my main interest and, like pd itself, augments my learning style. :) cheers thx, star On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 18:04 -0700, Thomas Jeppesen wrote: Not sure if it's exactly what you are after, but the computer musical tutorial by Curtis Roads, takes you through it all in a not too scientific/mathematic way. Actually I think it accompanies PD extremely well. http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Music-Tutorial-Curtis-Roads/dp/0262680823/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-5380871-4068156?ie=UTF8s=booksqid=1173978334sr=8-1 I hope you'll find it useful. Cheers! Thomas - Original Message - From: shift8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: padawan12 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: pd-list@iem.at; Josh Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 6:54 AM Subject: Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths dude - you are a ninja. uhm, i mean, a jedi. seriously - i want to emulate you a bit when i grow up ;P that said, what resources would you recommend that illustrate calculus as used for signal processing, but from a more functional point of view as opposed to a theoretical one. i know there are dsp chip programming guides for engineering, but there seems to be only how and not the why in most cases there. too theoretical of descriptions makes it difficult for me to visualize the action or imagine the sonic implications of the theory being discussed. personally, i find that the application of theories make much more sense than the abstract theories themselves. maybe it's brain damage, or perhaps plain 'ol ignorance. but anyway, here's a simple example: someone tells me an empirical definition of the nyquist theory, it's hard to get my head around. but if someone says hey, you can't sample a frequency that is = 1/2 of the sample rate, because the wavelength is too short in duration to fit sample boundaries, and it causes distortions that are related to the frequency being sampled. that totally makes sense. i can picture that from a functional point of view, and then have a much easier time with the math an theory of it. are there any resources, books, etc out that approach the subject of dsp in a style like this? thanks and high regards, star On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 15:24 +, padawan12 wrote: [pow~] is from cyclone, I think in the case I used it (pow 2) you can replace it with an equivilent [expr~] expression or [*~]. I thought [lowpass] and [highpass] were vanilla. They are needed to set the coeffs for biquad~ On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:49:29 -0800 Josh Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i seem to be missing: lowpass, highpass and pow~ running 0.39.2-extended-test7 on winxp -josh padawan12 wrote: Sorry Hardoff, scratch that last load of rubbish. The parasite synth is the wrong patch, and I thought I was talking about different oscillators, it should have been something more like the ones here. The oscillator is a dual-slope one in hoover-triangles.pd, much easier to pull out than the last mess. Another take is the hoover-pwm.pd, which is a juno voice basically, it's much brighter and fizzy down low. It just depends what you want more in the low registers, up high theres not so much difference. One is pulse width mod of a square, the other is slope mod of a triangle, both have a bit of frequency lfo on too at about 5 Hz. A fat Juno hoover noise uses the fast chorus so there's one on both versions. Each has the same sequence so you can compare the sounds. All the hoover flavours have a different character, like a highpass resonant filter makes an interesting addition. But what they share in common is a busy sound made by having 3 or 4 detuned components. Juno is a pwm + saw + square mix, with the square an octave down. On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:34:01 +0900 hard off [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: andy's tokyo techno one is cool. but i want hoovers. i keep try to make them and they always suck. there must have been a secret ingredient that i am forgetting. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- tasty electronic
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 20:45 +0100, Frank Barknecht wrote: Hallo, shift8 hat gesagt: // shift8 wrote: are there any resources, books, etc out that approach the subject of dsp in a style like this? I think, without some abstraction (sic!) one wouldn't get far with Pd. heh :) It's just not a tool for ignoring certain rather abstract issues. But I don't think you're looking for such a tool anyways. So for starters I would recommend Computer Music by Dodge/Jerse. It doesn't skip the necessary math, but has a good way of explaining it and illustrating its use from a practical POV. sounds perfect - amazon i presume? cc would be dope tho... It's definitly a book every aspiring Pd user should read. I won't say the same of the Computer Music Tutorial, which IMO often is a bit to, uhm, referential: It's very complete in its scope, but too often just directs you to a paper or another book if you want to know the real details. And it's too heavy to carry around in your bag. 'k A personal favourite of mine then is F.R. Moore's Elements of Computer Music, but it doesn't fit your description. But I come back to it again and again, while my CMT is collecting dust. ok, but i'm intrigued - i've almost always been a fan of your pd studies, and appreciate that often that's exactly what they are - illustrations of less then obvious techniques. this book inspires that to some extent? Ciao l8 -- Mechanize something idiosyncratic. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
excellent lead - thanks! i love this list :) On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 21:43 +0100, Steffen wrote: On 15/03/2007, at 14.54, shift8 wrote: are there any resources, books, etc out that approach the subject of dsp in a style like this? There is also Music: a Mathematical Offering by Dave Benson URL: http://www.maths.abdn.ac.uk/~bensondj/html/maths-music.html There is a free and regularly updated PDF version on that site. Also it was reviewed in the February issue of The Wire Mag. From the TOC: 7. Digital music 7.1 Digital signals 7.2 Dithering 7.3 WAV and MP3 files 7.4 MIDI 7.5 Delta functions and sampling 7.6 Nyquist's theorem 7.7 The z-transform 7.8 Digital filters 7.9 The discrete Fourier transform 7.10 The fast Fourier transform 8. Synthesis 8.1 Introduction 8.2 Envelopes and LFOs 8.3 Additive synthesis 8.4 Physical modeling 8.5 The Karplus-Strong algorithm 8.6 Filter analysis for the Karplus-Strong algorithm 8.7 Amplitude and frequency modulation 8.8 The Yamaha DX7 and FM synthesis 8.9 Feedback, or self-modulation 8.10 CSound 8.11 FM synthesis using CSound 8.12 Simple FM instruments 8.13 Further techniques in CSound 8.14 Other methods of synthesis 8.15 The phase vocoder 8.16 Chebychev polynomials I like this topic. In fact is was thinking about requesting folks bibtex files for inspiration. Anyone? -- Mechanize something idiosyncratic. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
man - so many good recommendations - thx^3! On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 19:38 -0700, Thomas Jeppesen wrote: Not sure if it's exactly what you are after, but the computer musical tutorial by Curtis Roads, takes you through it all in a not too scientific/mathematic way. Actually I think it accompanies PD extremely well. http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Music-Tutorial-Curtis-Roads/dp/0262680823/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-5380871-4068156?ie=UTF8s=booksqid=1173978334sr=8-1 I hope you'll find it useful. Cheers! Thomas - Original Message - From: shift8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: padawan12 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: pd-list@iem.at; Josh Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 6:54 AM Subject: Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths dude - you are a ninja. uhm, i mean, a jedi. seriously - i want to emulate you a bit when i grow up ;P that said, what resources would you recommend that illustrate calculus as used for signal processing, but from a more functional point of view as opposed to a theoretical one. i know there are dsp chip programming guides for engineering, but there seems to be only how and not the why in most cases there. too theoretical of descriptions makes it difficult for me to visualize the action or imagine the sonic implications of the theory being discussed. personally, i find that the application of theories make much more sense than the abstract theories themselves. maybe it's brain damage, or perhaps plain 'ol ignorance. but anyway, here's a simple example: someone tells me an empirical definition of the nyquist theory, it's hard to get my head around. but if someone says hey, you can't sample a frequency that is = 1/2 of the sample rate, because the wavelength is too short in duration to fit sample boundaries, and it causes distortions that are related to the frequency being sampled. that totally makes sense. i can picture that from a functional point of view, and then have a much easier time with the math an theory of it. are there any resources, books, etc out that approach the subject of dsp in a style like this? thanks and high regards, star On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 15:24 +, padawan12 wrote: [pow~] is from cyclone, I think in the case I used it (pow 2) you can replace it with an equivilent [expr~] expression or [*~]. I thought [lowpass] and [highpass] were vanilla. They are needed to set the coeffs for biquad~ On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:49:29 -0800 Josh Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i seem to be missing: lowpass, highpass and pow~ running 0.39.2-extended-test7 on winxp -josh padawan12 wrote: Sorry Hardoff, scratch that last load of rubbish. The parasite synth is the wrong patch, and I thought I was talking about different oscillators, it should have been something more like the ones here. The oscillator is a dual-slope one in hoover-triangles.pd, much easier to pull out than the last mess. Another take is the hoover-pwm.pd, which is a juno voice basically, it's much brighter and fizzy down low. It just depends what you want more in the low registers, up high theres not so much difference. One is pulse width mod of a square, the other is slope mod of a triangle, both have a bit of frequency lfo on too at about 5 Hz. A fat Juno hoover noise uses the fast chorus so there's one on both versions. Each has the same sequence so you can compare the sounds. All the hoover flavours have a different character, like a highpass resonant filter makes an interesting addition. But what they share in common is a busy sound made by having 3 or 4 detuned components. Juno is a pwm + saw + square mix, with the square an octave down. On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:34:01 +0900 hard off [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: andy's tokyo techno one is cool. but i want hoovers. i keep try to make them and they always suck. there must have been a secret ingredient that i am forgetting. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- tasty electronic music vittles -- bluevitriol.com the only music blog you need-- playtherecords.com you are the dj. interactive music -- improbableorchestra.com random observations of the bizarre -- vitriolix.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
On Fri, 2007-03-16 at 08:26 +, padawan12 wrote: On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 06:54:40 -0700 shift8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what resources would you recommend that illustrate calculus as used for signal processing, but from a more functional point of view as opposed to a theoretical one. I heartily recommend Steven W Smiths Scientists and Engineers guide to DSP, before tackling Perry Cook, Eduardo Miranda and our own Miller Puckette. Calculus is only a small part of the picture, maybe you use the word too broadly because it's just a technique that helps understand certain equations. For calculus you needn't really go above A level, a little of that with a good grasp of algebra, trig and geometry are a solid enough basis. Linear algebra and matrices are some useful tricks to put in your bag, and you can get a long way by reading many of the tutorials for Octave. this site rocks! http://www.dspguide.com/ haven't seen this one - will check it out. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Real-Sound-Synthesis-Interactive-Applications/dp/1568811683 As Chuckk and some of the other mathematicians have said here, some esoteric pure math like operator theory subsumes the whole subject, because sound is about changes and transformations, but I wonder what other peoples top 10 'must have' concepts are. I suppose it depends on your goals, for example a lot of composers learn a disproportionate amount of stats and distributions. i have been playing around with those a bit from a very lay perspective - mostly randomized scales w/ occasional octave shifting (random w/ %, usually). i'm a fan of generative work, and hope to get better at it as time goes by and i better my skills. i know there are dsp chip programming guides for engineering, but there seems to be only how and not the why in most cases there. too theoretical of descriptions makes it difficult for me to visualize the action or imagine the sonic implications of the theory being discussed. personally, i find that the application of theories make much more sense than the abstract theories themselves. maybe it's brain damage, or perhaps plain 'ol ignorance. but anyway, here's a simple example: someone tells me an empirical definition of the nyquist theory, it's hard to get my head around. but if someone says hey, you can't sample a frequency that is = 1/2 of the sample rate, because the wavelength is too short in duration to fit sample boundaries, and it causes distortions that are related to the frequency being sampled. that totally makes sense. i can picture that from a functional point of view, and then have a much easier time with the math an theory of it. I strongly agree with you about teaching theory in context. It is hard to pick good examples and write using only words so that the knowledge sticks. Sometimes symbolic representation is the only way to be unambiguous. That is why Puredata is a powerful teaching and exploration tool, the diagram is the program. We are also lucky to have people like Derek and Frank who write from a position of least assumptions. I find a lot can be learned by just browsing the archives. truly - i've learned so much from pd, the help docs (brilliantly implemented in pd themselves), and all of the rocking folks that share their ideas w/ the list so often. the pd archive is a super bad ass resource - one of the days i'm going to throw together a script that culls patches from the archives and makes the containing mail the readme.txt for them. are there any resources, books, etc out that approach the subject of dsp in a style like this? One of Eduardo Mirandas more gentle books Computer Sound Design gives a pretty broad read, it also has some fun Windows and Mac software on the CD ROM. And you can't go wrong reading classics like Roads. that's like the 3rd recommendation for Rhoads - guess i'll be picking that one up :) Perhaps it's important to know that classic DSP is only a part of synthesis and analysis. It's the implementation layer. true - but i think the digital representation has a definite impact on technique. Another area of wisdom to explore is physics. I like to start sound design lectures by explaining that sound is a branch of dynamics, particularly fluid dynamics. Physics really helps design realistic sound effects, to know about propagation, interference, reflection, damping, stress, elasticity and all that. Then you can make ballpark models of what sound waves are doing in an object of given materials and dimensions. There's a big section in the book I'm writing about knowledge, imperative, declarative and procedural, and how to move from a description to a model to a method. Really this is Software Engineering, but that's what we are doing at the end of the day. software and systems arch is what i do for a living, and one of the big reasons why pd has such a draw to me. i'm much better at
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
wow - super big ups for all of the responses on this. thanks every one. don't want to gush, but damn community knowledge++ !! -- Mechanize something idiosyncratic. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:26:15 +0100 Frank Barknecht [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: .. but there's always the JO Smith's website for the formulas. Ah yes for more advanced, Julius Smith physical modelling guru http://www-ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/index.html Dave Bensons (with the free pdf of his book) http://www.maths.abdn.ac.uk/~bensondj/html/maths-music.html Mustn't forget the great resource at http://www.musicdsp.org/ any other good shares? :) Andy ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:49:13 -0700 shift8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: truly - i've learned so much from pd, the help docs (brilliantly implemented in pd themselves), and all of the rocking folks that share Yeah, massive community bigup, it's really coming together now. You don't realise the incremental improvements most of the time when you're close to a program, then one day you download the latest and it's oh that's fixed, this works now, there's shitloads more helpfiles, it's really good! And cross platform is rocking too. I get more things working with mates who use Mac and Win than in the past. moving away from static content in general, the basic sameness of images and audio in time and frequency space, etc etc. Yeah, I'm totally into procedural content, programs good, data bad :} ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
On 3/16/07, padawan12 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 06:54:40 -0700 shift8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As Chuckk and some of the other mathematicians have said here, some esoteric pure math like operator theory subsumes the whole subject, because Wait, what? I wish I was a mathematician. Do I come across that way? I don't know what operator theory is, but I guess if it's related to what I've said about music cognition, then I have some idea. sound is about changes and transformations, but I wonder what other peoples top 10 'must have' concepts are. I suppose it depends on your goals, for example a lot of composers learn a disproportionate amount of stats and distributions. I'm humbled by those guys. I borrowed an extra book from my probability teacher (since probability class at an art school is kind of tame), hoping to understand Gaussian, Poisson, etc., after seeing them in the Csound manual, but I'm kind of marooned. I've actually had some pretty heated (and useless) arguments with teachers about form in music. I argue that it doesn't exist, e.g. that the beginning and end don't work the same way and so form is kind of a misnomer. You never apprehend the object as a whole, because you don't know what comes next. Then again, I just apprehended that bottle of lager as a whole, so I'm not sure if I'm making much sense... Viva la dialectic. -Chuckk -- http://www.badmuthahubbard.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
[pow~] is from cyclone, I think in the case I used it (pow 2) you can replace it with an equivilent [expr~] expression or [*~]. I thought [lowpass] and [highpass] were vanilla. They are needed to set the coeffs for biquad~ On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:49:29 -0800 Josh Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i seem to be missing: lowpass, highpass and pow~ running 0.39.2-extended-test7 on winxp -josh padawan12 wrote: Sorry Hardoff, scratch that last load of rubbish. The parasite synth is the wrong patch, and I thought I was talking about different oscillators, it should have been something more like the ones here. The oscillator is a dual-slope one in hoover-triangles.pd, much easier to pull out than the last mess. Another take is the hoover-pwm.pd, which is a juno voice basically, it's much brighter and fizzy down low. It just depends what you want more in the low registers, up high theres not so much difference. One is pulse width mod of a square, the other is slope mod of a triangle, both have a bit of frequency lfo on too at about 5 Hz. A fat Juno hoover noise uses the fast chorus so there's one on both versions. Each has the same sequence so you can compare the sounds. All the hoover flavours have a different character, like a highpass resonant filter makes an interesting addition. But what they share in common is a busy sound made by having 3 or 4 detuned components. Juno is a pwm + saw + square mix, with the square an octave down. On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:34:01 +0900 hard off [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: andy's tokyo techno one is cool. but i want hoovers. i keep try to make them and they always suck. there must have been a secret ingredient that i am forgetting. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- tasty electronic music vittles -- bluevitriol.com the only music blog you need-- playtherecords.com you are the dj. interactive music -- improbableorchestra.com random observations of the bizarre -- vitriolix.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
That synth is sick. Reminds me of my days idolizing Ed Rush and Optical. ~Kyle On 3/13/07, padawan12 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dunno if you can make this into anything useful. It's very nasty. twin vari-slope triangle - chebyshev waveshaper - formant ^ | |_ FM feedback | I was trying to get something like a virus sound for a mate who is into jungle. This is the weaponised version with no anti-aliasing whatsoever (apparently that makes it sound better). Careful, it's already claimed one set of speakers. You might want to put some filters on the output to tame it a bit. But it's not classic hoover. You want lots of detuned triangles for that. Somewhere there's one called Edgar.pd I made which does that quite nicely, but just rip the dual slope triangle out of this one, dupe it a few times and give them a spread of about 3%, that's the secret ingredient. On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:34:01 +0900 hard off [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: andy's tokyo techno one is cool. but i want hoovers. i keep try to make them and they always suck. there must have been a secret ingredient that i am forgetting. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- http://theradioproject.com http://perhapsidid.blogspot.com (()()()(()))()()())( (())(())()((( ))(__ _())(()))___ (((000)))oOO ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
Juno is a pwm + saw + square mix, with the ooh la la! perfect. cheers. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] oldschool rave synths
have you made a good oldschool pd synth? anything i make sounds like some roland groovebox from the 90's. anyone got any cool old rave sounds? ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
On 12/03/2007, at 11.56, hard off wrote: have you made a good oldschool pd synth? anything i make sounds like some roland groovebox from the 90's. Frank's got a 303 thingy, http://footils.org/cms/show/19 I'd be surprised if Andy doesn't have some oldtech sounding stuff about. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
andy's tokyo techno one is cool. but i want hoovers. i keep try to make them and they always suck. there must have been a secret ingredient that i am forgetting. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] oldschool rave synths
Dunno if you can make this into anything useful. It's very nasty. twin vari-slope triangle - chebyshev waveshaper - formant ^ | |_ FM feedback | I was trying to get something like a virus sound for a mate who is into jungle. This is the weaponised version with no anti-aliasing whatsoever (apparently that makes it sound better). Careful, it's already claimed one set of speakers. You might want to put some filters on the output to tame it a bit. But it's not classic hoover. You want lots of detuned triangles for that. Somewhere there's one called Edgar.pd I made which does that quite nicely, but just rip the dual slope triangle out of this one, dupe it a few times and give them a spread of about 3%, that's the secret ingredient. On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:34:01 +0900 hard off [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: andy's tokyo techno one is cool. but i want hoovers. i keep try to make them and they always suck. there must have been a secret ingredient that i am forgetting. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list parasite-synth.pd Description: Binary data ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
