Let's not debate Lou here.
Rod Hay wrote:
Lou is hardly in a position to knock any one for not reading something. His
favourite pastime seems to be denouncing people he has never read. In the
last week we have had Bill Wilson and Barrington Moore slammed. And this is
only the latest.
And
Mr Perlman: What you criticise is, in many ways, why I joined this list. I
do my "battles" etc.. with people on lists other than this one. I am about
to engage in University in three months, to take this sort of stuff on head
first. This particular list is a primer for the sort of things I'm
Lou is hardly in a position to knock any one for not reading something. His
favourite pastime seems to be denouncing people he has never read. In the
last week we have had Bill Wilson and Barrington Moore slammed. And this is
only the latest.
And I think it irrelevant in this case. I have
Jim, you may well be right. The idea was not to conduct a Brenner debate. It
came up in an entirely different context, when I challenged Brad about a
statement in which he wrote of China's failure to become capitalist. My
concern at the time was the idea of a capitalist teleology in which
Brad asks of Jim B.:
Or do you mean that you don't care? That real GDP per capita estimates ...
are not related to anything called "development"?
Jim B. has never explicitly defined "capitalism" -- and thus capitalist
development -- but in many messages, he has revealed his preference for a
Last night as I was teaching a Macro course, covering GDP in the usual way
(what it purports to measure and how; what is not measured, what is
difficult or impossible to quantify; real vs nominal; how it is
used/misused; GDP vs GNP; National Income Accounting; the usual) which I
approach like a
I agree with Louis about the relative meaninglessness of comparing GDPs in
the Third world.
Jim Blaut
Do you mean that you don't believe that material standards of living
are higher and childhood mortality rates lower today in India,
Botswana, and Egypt than they were in 1975?
Or do you
Michael:
All well and good, but of the 20 or so people who have participated in the
Brenner debate on this list, I'd venture that maybe 5 or 6 have actually
read Brenner ,mostly his NLR article of 20+ years ago; and maybe 3 or 4
have read him in connection with this debate.
I can't help but
Brad:
Cuba doesn't qualify as a country that is dominated by world capitalism.
Nor is it really one of the poorer countries if you consider life
expectancy, education, and the like.
I agree with Louis about the relative meaninglessness of comparing GDPs in
the Third world. Back in Papa Doc's
Louis Proyect wrote:
One of the reasons I got so pissed off at people jumping into this thread
is that they didn't want to do their homework. It is like being at a high
stakes poker game with kibitzers standing over your shoulder telling you
what cards to deal.
One problem is who will
There was outmigration from Ontario in the 1870-90 period. All of the good
agricultural land was taken up. Farm families were large and alternative
employment opportunities were limited. The growing manufacturing sector of
the American mid-west was very attractive. This process came to an end
In response to Bill's questions below, I would just like to make a
few observations as I don't have the time to respond in detail. It is
important to set out the region and the timing of land settlement.
In quebec, from which there was heavy outmigration particularly in
the second half of
BLS DAILY REPORT, TUESDAY, OCTOBER 12, 1999
__What appears to be an abrupt halt to payroll expansion in September could
be an indication that the U.S. economy is slowing, but analysts take a
wait-and-see approach given that the jobs data were skewed by the impact of
Hurricane Floyd. Official
You are smart and have quite a bit of knowledge, but you cannot
communicate like
this on pen-l. It is too disruptive.
Look, I have a good suggestion. Anybody writing on this thread should
simply not respond to what other people are writing, or mention them by
name. I didn't need to have people
No. Blaut should not insult you either. I am trying to put a stop to this so that
new people feel free to join in the conversation! I have not noticed a problem
with Jim lately. I rebuked Lou P. today and he responded quite nicely. So I am
serious about your behavior.
You are smart and have
Max:
Interesting, when you think about it, that on this your grand
obsession, when challenged for empirical support, and given
your prodigious information transfer capabilities, you come up
with something almost completely irrelevant.
No, Max. It is relevant. Social inequality breeds revolution.
I was just interested in what constituted a random sample. Brad's method
seem's ok.
Max Sawicky wrote:
Michael, if you question BdL's selection, try your own and tell
us how it comes out.
I do not know much about Mali or Burma. Suppose we look at the U.S. Sure, we
see signs of development
With all due respect, I did spend a brief time at the college in Oxford
supported by the TUC, and while I agree about the scholarly version of
"labor aristocracy" that Louis mentions, most US students' anglophillic
sense of the place does resemble either comedy like Laurel Hardy or
tragedy like
Now someone could say the only stuff that's quantified is what
puts capitalist development in a favorable light.
That's why _Capital_ is filled with so many citations from British
Parliamentary reports...
You *have* to have lots of empirical evidence to make sure that your
anecdotes are
Steve:
1) I most emphatically and positively was NOT including China in the
category of "poorer countries." That was your phrase and I took it as
implying the Third world countries that are suffering under world
capitalist imperialism.
2) "How does one discern between one who is advancing a
The question was whether much development was
taking place. Inequality is a different thing,
important but different.
mbs
There was "development" in the black community in the United States all
through the 1960s. Black factory workers were not mollified by it, however,
and demanded parity with
So, if Blaut insults me he should cool it because I am too sensitive,
but if I attack back I am insensitive! Why dont you go ahead and
throw me out. Look at the other exchanges here, even between
Devine and Proyect; but if I say something as soft as what I said
below, oh well, that's
Grantham:
6. Since average yields in northern Europe were lower than
good (though not best) practice by at least 50 percent, we
need to ask why the potential was not exploited at an
earlier date and why it was not exploited more
continuously. Here, I think, we must turn to the economic
Charles Brown wrote:
Charles: The capitalism mode of production had a division of labor between
Euro-America and colonies. But the concrete relationship between these major
divisions has different qualitative and quantitative fits in different times. On the
other hand, these concrete
I would like to hear more about this random selection process.
I grabbed my list of countries from the 1999 Human Development
Report, pasted them into a column of an Excel spreadsheet, used
Excel's random number function to assign each one a random number,
sorted the spreadsheet in
In reply to my suggestion that colonial policy restricted the availability
of land in 'Canada', and so retarded capitalism relative to that in the US,
Paul P. asked for any evidence that access to land was more restrictive in
Canada and retarded settlement.
My evidence is pretty thin (I was
Jim Blaut writes: If you studied with Johnny Murra, you should know a lot
more about Latin America than you give evidence of knowing, but thats
beside the point which is:
I took frosh anthro with Prof. Murra for one semester, so I am hardly his
disciple. So don't go writing to him to complain
Let's see if I get the logic of the below.
a) Brenner went to Oxford.
b) Oxford is bad, a source of many Eurocentric misconceptions.
c) therefore Brenner is wrong and bad.
QED
At 09:51 AM 10/12/1999 -0400, Louis Proyect wrote:
I am considering the possibility of a novel approach to to
Sam writes: Technically, ideas occur or are originated in brains and
brains are physical things. In principle it is possible to identify ideas
as certain neurophysiological and chemical processes and argue that these
processes do not fully explain the content of the idea so that there is
I wrote:
"I'll forward this to Bob B."
"...But the analogy must be wrong, since Louis says
it's wrong. The Line has come down from the Central Committee."
Jim B. scolds:
Jim D. is so anxious to vindicate Brenner, not only on the rise of
capitalism (only in Europe) but also on the benefits that
I wrote: BTW, RB's critique of Frank links up with the broader
"orthodox" Marxist critique of the dependency and Monthly Review schools.
One of the basic critiques here is that many dependistas ignored the role
of class conflict within the periphery, which eventually linked up with
popular
Michael P. wrote:
Jim, I think that you make a powerful point that production in the
periphery is important. Did Brenner ever deny that?
I don't know which Jim this is for. But because I'm an egomaniac, I'll
assume it's for me.
As far as I can tell (since I've not read all his works), Brenner
As you see below, a small number of us have been doing the majority of
the posting. I suspect that a combination of arrogance, loudness and
bad manners must discourage many lurkers from jumping in.
I have a suggestion. How about us usual suspects remaining silent
tomorrow in the hopes that
Of course, you know, Marx said when an idea grips the masses , it becomes a material
force. ( Contrib to Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Law - Introduction)
Relations of production are part of the forces of production. The wage-labor/capital
relationship of production is a material force, in
Translation: I have no data.
mbs
The question was whether much development was
taking place. Inequality is a different thing,
important but different.
mbs
And a lot of inequality is taking place as well. More every day, in fact...
Brad DeLong
I would like to hear more about this random selection process.
Brad De Long wrote:
Well let's pick five countries from the poorer regions of the world
at random... Zambia... India... Botswana... Egypt... Cuba...
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
[EMAIL
Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/12/99 12:27PM
Last night, Lou gently rebuked me for neglecting to recognize the
historical element in the debate about the so-called Brenner thesis. I
thought quite a bit about what he said.
The problem that this debate suffers from might be called
BLS DAILY REPORT, FRIDAY, OCTOBER 8, 1999
RELEASED TODAY: Payroll employment was essentially unchanged in September,
and the unemployment rate remained at 4.2 percent. Employment declined in
manufacturing and retail trade, and the services industry added relatively
few jobs over the month.
Sam, organic agriculture in general -- I don't know about Cuba -- has
productivity just as high as conventional agriculture. Outputs are less, and
so are purchased inputs, such as pesticides.
By indigenous technology, I did not mean a lower standard of living, by a
different strategy of
This is going to stop if you want to stay on the list.
Ricardo Duchesne wrote:
I think I already showed that you, Frank et. al. don't know anything about
Weber, which is why you dont debate me.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Chico, CA
Mark Rickling wrote:
Right now, on the real side, there is no going back to the old system,
much less a GAI. The more you demand it, the more irrelevant you
get. The game is different now. If you don't want to take my word
for it, ask the advocates who work in the trenches.
I agree
Last night, Lou gently rebuked me for neglecting to recognize the
historical element in the debate about the so-called Brenner thesis. I
thought quite a bit about what he said.
The problem that this debate suffers from might be called
over-determination (pardon my Althusserianism). We're
The question was whether much development was
taking place. Inequality is a different thing,
important but different.
mbs
There was "development" in the black community in the United States all
through the 1960s. Black factory workers were not mollified by it, however,
and demanded parity with
Translation: I have no data.
mbs
The question was whether much development was
taking place. Inequality is a different thing,
important but different.
mbs
Michael Perelman wrote:
Last night, Lou gently rebuked me for neglecting to recognize the
historical element in the debate about the so-called Brenner thesis. I
thought quite a bit about what he said.
Michael, a lot of the politics is buried beneath the surface. And I imagine
there are
Translation: I have no data.
mbs
The New York Times, September 27, 1998, Sunday, Late Edition - Final
KOFI ANNAN'S Astonishing Facts!
By BARBARA CROSSETTE
Every year, the United Nations Human Development Report looks for a new way
to measure the lives of people. Putting aside faceless
Jim,which dependentista's? Where? A lot of critics of dependency theory
make criticisms without mentioning who and what they are criticizing.
C.Leys is one of the worst perpetrators here. For example, in one of his
papers (in the collection The Rise and Fall of Development Theory) he
presents a
Well let's pick five countries from the poorer regions of the world
at random... Zambia... India... Botswana... Egypt... Cuba...
GDP per Capita (1987 US $)
Country19751997
---
Cuba ??? ??? (but lower since the
1) Ricardo contra Grantham: " Just want to make a few additional points on
the question of agricultural yields in Europe... as Cipolla
warns us, these figures (on yields per unit of seed) are "not based
on comprehensive data but on scattered information derived from a
relatively small
Lou, I hope that this post was an accident, spilling over from your debate on
your list. It has no place here.
Louis Proyect wrote:
Carrol:
As to my last post, I allowed myself to become too irritated by the
your last two posts to pen-l and gave a bungled response. I withdraw
that post.
I am considering the possibility of a novel approach to to understanding
the Brenner thesis. Some years back I was on several mailing
lists--including this one--with a Justin Schwartz. Justin was proud of his
connections to Robert Brenner, who he considered a jewel among Analytical
Marxists,
Ricardo Duchesne wrote:
Wood joined Monthly Review as she was pushed out of the editorial
board of New Left Review, where Brenner is still a member.
The leaders of the NLR purges were Alexander Cockburn and Tariq Ali,
or so I've heard (which, as one observer pointed out, could be read
Dissertation Fellowship.
The Center for Social Theory and Comparative History and the Sociology
Department at UCLA are pleased to announce a one year dissertation
fellowship from 1 October 1997 through 30 June 1998. Fellowships will also
be available for the 1998-99 academic year. Scholars from
LP:
. . .
What these figures conceal is the deep anger that is felt . . .
Translation: I have no data.
mbs
Steve: "The argument that no development takes place in poorer
regions of the world political economy is hardly an argument that carries
much weight."
Allowing for exceptions, the great mass of people in "the poorer regions of
the world" are not enjoying any development.
Moreover, although this
Carrol:
As to my last post, I allowed myself to become too irritated by the
your last two posts to pen-l and gave a bungled response. I withdraw
that post.
Do yourself a favor and don't read what I write on these questions, since
it will only irritate you further. For somebody in an advanced
On Tuesday, October 12, 1999 at 06:23:51 (-0700) Brad De Long writes:
[Jim Blaut writes:]
...
Allowing for exceptions, the great mass of people in "the poorer regions of
the world" are not enjoying any development.
...
Well let's pick five countries from the poorer regions of the world
at
Hi Jim D:
So the Fed concerns itself with inflation
and keeping it as low as possible. They're willing to let others suffer
from unemployment.
I don't think most Americans know that, though -- hence the myth. I'm
willing to bet that the majority of college graduates who have taken
courses in
I am sure that Moore is interesting. As far as being useful, I have
socialist revolution in mind. Can't believe that Moore has much useful to
say on that.
Moore's *Social Origins of Dictatorship and Democracy* is as Marxist as
they come - unless you just want paraphrasing of Marx's
michael perelman wrote:
Peripheral countries have two choices in development. Either they can
try to emulate the technologies of the powerful capitalist countries or
they can develop their own indigenous technologies.
But doesn't this amount to the same thing? Import-substitution? By
Louis Proyect wrote:
Carrol, I am afraid that you have lost track of what this debate is about.
Let me remind you.
Lou, what you never acknowledged was that the debate was on a
dozen different things, that I never joined *most* of those debates
but intervened on the following points *only*:
At 13:58 11/10/99 -0400, Charles Brown wrote:
I would say part of the reason the US left has been flat since the
reforms of 60's and 70's is that the U.S. ruling class organized, in
response to those reforms, an enormous counter-reform, which can be
encapsulated in the term "Reaganism".
...
Michael:
There's a lot of fog and confusion around this discussion on this list. OF
COURSE Brenner doesn't deny that colonial exploitation has been important
for capitalism.
He denies that the origins and early development of capitalism had anything
to do with the non-European world. In his
Jim Devine wrote:
BTW, RB's critique of Frank links up with the broader "orthodox" Marxist
critique of the dependency and Monthly Review schools. One of the basic
critiques here is that many dependistas ignored the role of class conflict
within the periphery, which eventually linked up with
Rod Hay wrote:
I think this confuses things. An idea is not matter. It seems as if someone
has made an ideological committment to "materialism" and then decides that
racism exists and is important therefore it must be matter. Racism is an
ideology (i.e., a system of ideas). Electricity is a
Steve: "The argument that no development takes place in poorer
regions of the world political economy is hardly an argument that carries
much weight."
Allowing for exceptions, the great mass of people in "the poorer regions of
the world" are not enjoying any development.
Moreover, although
On Monday, October 11, 1999 at 13:15:10 (-0400) Louis Proyect writes:
Did Cockburn write about that? I don't remember. In any case, it
sounds like this draws on research by Arline Geronimus, who should
get the credit for it, since she's gotten mostly grief from moralists
left and right. She
Jim Devine:
If you studied with Johnny Murra, you should know a lot more about Latin
America than you give evidence of knowing, but thats beside the point which
is:
Although I agree withg Sid Mintz on the capitalist nature of the sugar
plantation system, one does not need to define slaves as
Jim Devine:
"I'll forward this to Bob B."
"...But the analogy must be wrong, since Louis says
it's wrong. The Line has come down from the Central Committee."
Jim D. is so anxious to vindicate Brenner, not only on the rise of
capitalism (only in Europe) but also on the benefits that core
Right now, on the real side, there is no going back to the old system,
much less a GAI. The more you demand it, the more irrelevant you
get. The game is different now. If you don't want to take my word
for it, ask the advocates who work in the trenches.
I agree that organizing around a
Rod and Rob or vice versa:
Today we have lots of racism but very few racists. Praxis is the thing, not
ideology.
Jim B
Michael Perelman wrote:
Jim's restatement of the Brenner thesis coincides with what Marx said and
what
Ellen Wood said. I think the problem with this whole debate is that we
have a
tendency to label individuals as right or wrong and then apply these
labels in
a slap dash way without any feel for
G'day Rod,
I don't often disagree with your fine contributions, but I think I must
here. Marx's materialism is not that of Feuerbach, and I think we'd benefit
from exploring the gap Marx sought to open between the two. Marx thought
Feuerbach's notion of human 'essence' (the springboard
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