Sabri wrote:
That must be the Marsden effect. He has a tendency to put people to
sleep.
i've seen him give talks, and he's a fine, dynamic speaker. But this
literary trend he is a part of is a dead end.
I have one of his books with Hughes from 1976, A short course in
fluid mechanics and it
Les:
i love a nice looking piece of math, in fact i tend
to get it only if i can see the artwork effort which
went into creating it.
Between you and I, me too. Not only that, I pay great attention
to make my mathematics writing look beautiful. Unlike most people
believe, mathematics is not
I was wading through the mails on PEN-L and just saw this.
Les:
i liked his cartoon books on dynamics very much. it
was his text w/Marsden and Ratiu that puts me to sleep.
That must be the Marsden effect. He has a tendency to put people
to sleep. I have one of his books with Hughes from 1976,
Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Complexity
Barkley's comments on chaos/catastrophe/power law theories are first rate.
By the way, Sam Bowles runs the econ. program at the Santa Fe Institute.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail
Well, folks, I am going to check off out of this list
very shortly. Just way too busy. Thought I would add
a final observation on the complexity discussion,
especially as it relates to financial markets.
When one looks closely at what is going on in most
of the complex dynamics models
On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 16:57:17 -0400, Barkley Rosser
wrote:
Briefly, there were
indeed intellectual bubbles regarding cybernetics,
catastrophe theory, chaos theory, and complexity
theory,
which rose and then fell.
What's your view on Didier Sornette and log-periodic
power laws? Another
What's your view on Didier Sornette and log-periodic
power laws? Another intellectual bubble developing?
I've got his Why Stock Markets Crash and there is
some good stuff there, but he appears to be trying to
extend his theory into a general principle of stock
market movements. HE's also
Barkley wrote:
I think Ralph Abraham is a genius.
i liked his cartoon books on dynamics very much. it was his text w/
Marsden and Ratiu that puts me to sleep.
He also discovered chaotic hysteresis, although I am the one who
coined that term.
can you send me your paper on this offlist, it
Sabri,
The fad phase of cybernetics was the 1950s
and 1960s. Today it lives in modern complexity stuff.
The fad phase of catastrophe theory was the 1970s.
Today it is dead, except when appearing under
other names, which it is increasingly doing so again.
The fad phase for chaos theory
Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 2:48 AM
Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Complexity
On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 16:57:17 -0400, Barkley Rosser
wrote:
Briefly, there were
indeed intellectual bubbles regarding cybernetics,
catastrophe theory, chaos
: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 10:10 PM
Subject: [PEN-L] RES: [PEN-L] Complexity
What's your view on Didier Sornette and log-periodic
power laws? Another intellectual bubble developing?
I've got his Why Stock Markets Crash and there is
some good stuff there, but he appears to be trying to
extend his
]
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:11 AM
Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Complexity
Barkley wrote:
I think Ralph Abraham is a genius.
i liked his cartoon books on dynamics very much. it was his text w/
Marsden and Ratiu that puts me to sleep.
He also discovered chaotic hysteresis, although I am
Barkley:
Today, chaos theory is just normal science.
Exactly! And a good one I would say.
This has been my point all along.
I am sick and tired of hearing about the soliton revolution,
chaos revolution, complexity revolution and the like.
These are not revolutions. These are natural/normal
- Original Message -
From: Sabri Oncu [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Barkley:
Today, chaos theory is just normal science.
Exactly! And a good one I would say.
This has been my point all along.
I am sick and tired of hearing about the soliton revolution,
chaos revolution, complexity
Title: RE: [PEN-L] Complexity
it's interesting (and perhaps sad from Sabri's perspective) that the whole idea of scientific revolutions was pushed by many people on the left (embracing Kuhn).
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
With regard to this question of revolutions, I think
that the one where there may be a political element is
the continuing undervaluation of catastrophe theory.
Chaos theory and complexity theory are much more
easily house-broken ideologically, so to speak. After
all, there is a right-wing
Jim:
it's interesting (and perhaps sad from Sabri's perspective)
that the whole idea of scientific revolutions was pushed
by many people on the left (embracing Kuhn).
I may be a leftist but whatever I say about science is based on
my personal experiences in the wonderland as one of the
Barkley's comments on chaos/catastrophe/power law theories are first rate.
By the way, Sam Bowles runs the econ. program at the Santa Fe Institute.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
i agree chaos and complexity studies have a fad __component__.
Sabri Oncu writes:
: However, with what I know about chaos, and it is not much, mind
: you, my subjective judgment is that chaos is a fad as
: topology was once to mathematical analysis or game theory
: was to economics.
topology
My view on the four C's is laid out in my Journal of
Economic Perspectives, 1999, article, On the Complexity
of Complex Economic Dynamics, which can be seen
on my website, with a much more thorough discussion in
the book I have already mentioned. Briefly, there were
indeed intellectual
18, 2003 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Complexity
i agree chaos and complexity studies have a fad __component__.
Sabri Oncu writes:
: However, with what I know about chaos, and it is not much, mind
: you, my subjective judgment is that chaos is a fad as
: topology was once to mathematical
- Original Message -
From: Barkley Rosser [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I think Ralph Abraham is a genius. He is also
a great coiner of phrases, including the blue
bagel catastrophe and chaostrophe and
morphodynamics. He also discovered chaotic
hysteresis, although I am the one who coined
Les:
i agree chaos and complexity studies have a
fad __component__.
Les,
As I know it, fad means craze, trend, mania and the like. In that
sense, anyone who knows some math knows that chaos is a fad. Take
a look at the Preface of that beautiful book by Stephen Wiggins
where he says:
Finally
to embrace the concept of complexity.
But being dynamically complex, which chaotic dynamics can produce under
certain conditions, is an adjective and is by no means necessarily the
same as complexity theory, although IMHO chaos theory
probably also applies in economics.
Both theories explain
Sabri,
I took this definition from Dick Day in his book
on Complexity Dynamics in Economics, 1994, MIT
Press. There are over 40 other definitions, but I
l like this one for economic dynamics.
The dynamic patterns that are ruled out are all
rather regular, asymptotic convergence
nonlinear systems, but not all nonlinear systems
generate complex dynamics.
Barkley Rosser
- Original Message -
From:
Chris
Burford
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 2:25
AM
Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Complexity
At 2003-06-16 15:34 -0700, you quoted
does, whom Barkley
quoted in his article, that the concept of complexity more
generally, not just in economics, as just the latest in a string
of fads, the four Cs. Complexity is one of them and chaos is
another. Because it was very fashionable when I was a graduate
student, I read a few books about
Dear Barkley,
Being an old-fashioned thermodynamist trained in the Truesdell
school and specialized in the partial integro-differential
equations of the hyperbolic kind, I never had a chance to learn
about complexity theories.
Would you kindly enlighten me what this from your paper
Complexity
Sabri Oncu wrote:
Being an old-fashioned thermodynamist trained in the Truesdell
school and specialized in the partial integro-differential
equations of the hyperbolic kind,
And you have a problem with Western rationality?
Doug
Sabri Oncu wrote:
Being an old-fashioned thermodynamist trained in the Truesdell
school and specialized in the partial integro-differential
equations of the hyperbolic kind,
And you have a problem with Western rationality?
Doug
Hey!
This was exactly my problem.
I have been an active
Listen to the damned
It is not Islam or poverty that succours terrorism, but the failure to
be heard
Orhan Pamuk
Saturday September 29, 2001
The Guardian
As I walked the streets of Istanbul after watching the unbelievable
images of the twin towers in New York blazing and collapsing, I met
one
Well, I find Jim Devine's latest salvo on Krugman of
some interest. I think the following is going on:
1) He has read John Horgan's _The End of Science_.
Horgan is the one who coined this line about "cybernetics
to catastrophe to chaos to complexity" (all garbage
accord
I don't think pen-l should be a fan club for my old college roomie, Paul K,
but you folks may be interested in the following SLATE essay, where in the
process of trashing USVP Al Gore, he pooh-poohs both complexity and chaos
theory. Since he's a weathervane of the relatively enlightened orthodoxy
I think that I posted this once before, but what the hell!
Pool, Robert. 1989. "Strange Bedfellows." Science, vol. 245 (18 August): pp.
700-5.
701: Physicists at the Santa Fe institute were amazed at how
mathematically sophisticated economists were.
701: The economists were shocked at the
Someone mentioned Brian Arthur and his part in Mitchell Waldrop's book
"Complexity". That book
had a fairly interesting and novel (novel to me anyway) critique of the
mathematical "culture" of
Economics. The critique originates from a group of physicists called to
the Sant
Someone mentioned Brian Arthur and his part in Mitchell Waldrop's book
"Complexity". That book
had a fairly interesting and novel (novel to me anyway) critique of the
mathematical "culture" of
Economics. The critique originates from a group of physicists called to
the Sant
It is interesting to note that the chaos/complexity "paradigm" is
often portrayed as "cutting edge; the notions of hidden order in
complexity and complexity out of assumed order, fuzzy logic, strange-
attractors, spirals rather than linear chains of causality etc.
The eari
Carla Feldpausch just completed her PHD thesis,"The Political Economy
of Chaos: Multiple Equilibria and Fractal Basin Boundaries in a Nonlinear Envir
onmental Economy" with Walter Park (American University), Barkley Rosser
(James Madison Univerity), and Robert Blecker (American University) this
What time is Costanza's brown bag at EPI? I'd like to come.
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:08:42 -0700 (PDT)
Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Robin Hahnel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:11405] Re: Sustainable Development, Complexity theory,
What time is Costanza's brown bag at EPI? I'd like to come.
12:30 till about 2
Robin Hahnel wrote:
Carla Feldpausch just completed her PHD thesis,"The Political Economy
of Chaos: Multiple Equilibria and Fractal Basin Boundaries in a Nonlinear
Envir
onmental Economy" with Walter Park (American University), Barkley Rosser
(James Madison Univerity), and Robert Blecker
From: Anders Schneiderman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:11397] Sustainable Development, Complexity theory, and
Economics
I'm starting a new research project, and I need to get up to speed on the
latest thinking about sustainable development. Anybody have any reading
in
Syracuse are fairly limited)? I'm trying to use ecology / sustainable
development as a metaphor. Also, has anyone in economics done research
using complexity theory that's reasonably accessible? I know Kenneth Arrow
was doing some work, but I was curious who else has done interesting research.
About
/ sustainable
development as a metaphor. Also, has anyone in economics done research
using complexity theory that's reasonably accessible? I know Kenneth Arrow
was doing some work, but I was curious who else has done interesting research.
Anders Schneiderman
Progressive Communications
Check out
/ sustainable
development as a metaphor. Also, has anyone in economics done research
using complexity theory that's reasonably accessible? I know Kenneth Arrow
was doing some work, but I was curious who else has done interesting research.
Anders Schneiderman
Progressive Communications
The discussion over economists and rationality reminded me of something
I've been wanting to ask the economists on the list. Is the study of
complexity/chaos making any headway in mainstream economics these days?
I've read a bit of the work on complexity going on in the study of
biology
The discussion over economists and rationality reminded me of something
I've been wanting to ask the economists on the list. Is the study of
complexity/chaos making any headway in mainstream economics these days?
Read _The Economy as a Complex System_, a proceedings volume from the Santa
Fe
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