You're not kidding. I call that the Achilles heel of Marxism.
At 22:39 30/03/04 -0800, Mike Ballard wrote:
Thatcher's TINA is the opposite side of the utopian
coin.
Commies have to know what they want as well as what
they want to leave behind in history's dustbin.
Regards,
Mike B)
=
1844
in utopian thinking and saw discussion of
utopias as useful to working-class self-education. The big criticism of utopianism was
tactical and strategic: it doesn't do much good to show people a diagram of how
socialism should be organized (as the Socialist Labor Party used to do) and do nothing
else
.)
On to the substance.
Utopian socialism of the 19th century was a living movement. Engels had
high regard for David Owen because his utopianism was engaged with
political action that made a difference in the lives of working people:
Banished from official society, with a conspiracy of silence against
him
Jim wrote:
The big criticism of utopianism was tactical and strategic: it doesn't
do much good to show people a diagram of how socialism should be
organized (as the Socialist Labor Party used to do) and do nothing
else, ignoring the possibilities generated by the contradictions of
capitalism
--- Ted Winslow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It seems to me what distinguishes utopian from
scientific socialism
is that the former pays no attention to the means
through which the
better society is to be brought into existence.
*
What a
the mind: it is disposable time and nothing more.
The development from an earlier ascetic, morally-grounded utopianism to
productivist socialism in the 19th century perhaps covered some pretty
ambiguous territory in a recklessly unambiguous way. The notion that
socialism could meet and defeat
in the present.
alas, utopianism -- the creation of ideal alternatives to the system -- has never been
absent from socialist movements. In the US, E.V. Debs's Socialist Party included lots
of utopian ideas, including ideas from the Bellamyists. The Communist Party had the
USSR, which it often portrayed
Jim Devine wrote,
I see nothing wrong with utopian dreaming, as long as it's not seen as a
matter
of thinking up blueprints that _must_ be imposed.
Just about everything I lay my hands on these days has the word Utopia in
it. Chapman (1909): It occurred to me after a cursory examination of
Thatcher's TINA is the opposite side of the utopian
coin.
Commies have to know what they want as well as what
they want to leave behind in history's dustbin.
Regards,
Mike B)
=
1844 Paris Manuscripts,
Marx makes a major point
of the relationship between
the sexes: The infinite
degradation in
, just as Marx calls for in
the CM.
when you advocate "measurable proposals," are you saying that we need to develop "recipes for the cook-shops of the future"? I thought you were against utopianism.
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdev
Title: utopianism??
[was: RE: [PEN-L:29857] Re: Re: Re: Russia turns to yuan]
Shortage of oil? Not in this world. The shortage is in our vision and
imagination.
Melvin P.
Louis P:
Even under socialism, there would be dwindling supplies of oil just as
there are dwindling supplies
Jim Devine:
when you advocate measureable proposals, are you saying that we need to
develop recipes for the cook-shops of the future? I thought you were
against utopianism.
Utopianism means blueprints for how society should be run. Stating that
there are 2 billion souls on earth and given 2
Title: RE: [PEN-L:29861] Re: utopianism??
It's a nice academic distinction, but it doesn't work in practice. How one sets up a social organization of production affects how and what is produced. The relations and forces of production are unified, interpenetrate, and determine each others
the bad utopianism (figuring out how to get people to work together)
from the good utopianism (figuring out how to save water, etc.) BTW,
several of the 19th century utopians were pro-environment (e.g., William
Morris).
Well, I see that you are declaring in favor of socialism from below
Would it be fair to say that Lou is saying that we have to take account of
technical recipes, but not social recipes? Providing food requires
certain minimum amount of water, but not necessarily a specific social
form in which society converts water into food.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics
Title: RE: [PEN-L:29864] Re: RE: Re: utopianism??
You don't have to reply. But are you endorsing socialism from above, in which a small minority imposes its predetermined schemes on the majority of the population?
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http
Jim Devine wrote:
You don't have to reply. But are you endorsing socialism from above, in
which a small minority imposes its predetermined schemes on the majority
of the population?
I advocate the most ruthlessly dictatorial rule from above and over the
working class to make sure that they
Title: RE: [PEN-L:29868] Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: utopianism??
Louis Proyect of www.marxmail.org writes:
I advocate the most ruthlessly dictatorial rule from above
and over the working class to make sure that they follow the dictates of
the central presidium. Any workers found reading Hal
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Any workers found reading Hal Draper will be buried up to their necks and a
workers militia under the leadership of a tested commissar will drive over
their heads with power lawnmowers.
But what kind of lawnmowers, reel or rotary? Reels provide a better
, August 26, 2002 2:35 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:29876] Re: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: utopianism??
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Any workers found reading Hal Draper will be buried up to their necks and a
workers militia under the leadership of a tested commissar will drive over
Jutsin Shwartz:
Well, I've been arguing with folks hereabouts. Ia gree that some anonmytity
is possible under planning. However there is little under, for example, the
Albert-Hahnel and Devine models, both of which require the consumer to
justify her choices to the world. Still, it's good to
Title: RE: [PEN-L:27895] Market socialism as a form of utopianism
Utopianism will always play a role in the socialist movement, because people need to have some idea of what they're fighting _for_, not just what they're fighting against. If people don't have some vision of a rational
From: Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Utopianism will always play a role in the socialist movement, because
people
need to have some idea of what they're fighting _for_, not just what
they're
fighting against.
Absolutely. And if the devil can quote scripture to suit his purpose, I too
From: Carl Remick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I too as a devotely irreligious person can cite the bible ...
Er, make that devoutly. Normally I don't follow up on spelling errors, but
since Louis Proyect seems to be setting a new, higher standard on this
score, I figured I should be punctilious in this
are dealing with a genre of
literature, namely the utopian novel. There are other examples, from More's
Utopian to Samuel Butler's Erewhon. In the case of Hahnel-Albert, you
are confronted with *utopianism*, a form of political advocacy that seeks
ideal solutions to problems that had historical origins
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In the first instance, with Morris, you are dealing with a genre of
literature, namely the utopian novel. ... In the case of Hahnel-Albert, you
are confronted with *utopianism*, a form of political advocacy that seeks
ideal solutions to problems that had
of
literature, namely the utopian novel. ... In the case of
Hahnel-Albert, you
are confronted with *utopianism*, a form of political advocacy that seeks
ideal solutions to problems that had historical origins.
Ralph Waldo Emerson much agreed with you. In criticizing the utopianism
of Charles
Gar wrote:
I don't think it is ahistorical to deal with the limits of the
possible. Most utopian socialists today are activists.
I am sorry, Gar. This is not a question of activist credibility. This is
not why I object to Looking Forward. It is about how socialism can be
achieved. I believe
I am sorry, Gar. This is not a question of activist credibility. This is
not why I object to Looking Forward. It is about how socialism can be
achieved. I believe that it miseducates people to write elaborate models.
Marxists focus on strategies for revolution, not how future
From: Carl Remick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ralph Waldo Emerson, ... criticizing the utopianism of Charles Fourier,
said in part ...
Michael Perelman asked offlist about the source of that quote. It's from
Emerson's essay Fourierism and the Socialists -- text at
http://www.xmission.com/~seldom74
Gar:
If it is the only thing maybe. But as part of a broader program of
activism, how does it miseducate?
It tries to makes a connection between our ideas and what happened in
history. Against the managerialism of Lenin, Albert-Hahnel propose
participatory economics. Russia did not end up with
At 11:54 AM 07/11/2002 -0700, Gar wrote:
The worse the better eh? Both from personal experience, and from my
reading of history people are mostly likely to engage in either radical or
revolutionary activity when they have hope - when they believe things can
be better. I think you can find more
EPW
Book Review
May 4, 2002
Dialectical Utopianism
Spaces of Hope by David Harvey; Edinburgh University Press, Edinburgh, 2000;
pp 293, £ 14.95.
Praveen Kumar
Harvey has tried to imagine his kind of ideal society by reiterating his
faith in Marxism. If necessary correctives are added, he
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/30/01 11:24PM
but this was quite different from the attitude of the early 1920s or the
late 1910s. By the time K had taken over, the emphasis was on fighting and
winning the battle of competition with the "West" ("we will bury you") just
like Microsoft wanted to bury
[was: Re: [PEN-L:7564] Re: Re: Re: Korean news]
Brad wrote:
I see an equivalence here up until the 1980s. Khrushchev and his people
were absolutely certain that they were the wave of the future, and the
road to utopia.
but this was quite different from the attitude of the early 1920s or the
was: Re: [PEN-L:20499] Re: RE: Peter Dorman and Robin Hahnel (fwd)
At 05:36 PM 6/21/00 -0400, you wrote:
Regarding utopianism, I thought regaining some semblance of vision was all
the rage on the Left these days. I realize there remains a great deal of
self-consciousness regarding
Jim,
Thanks for the citations. I'll try not to be so loose with terminology in
the future. Still, I'm not sure Robin Hahnel's LOOKING FORWARD is in quite
the same camp as Bellamy's LOOKING BACKWARD, as was originally charged by
Louis. There is quite a bit more political substance to
At 06:28 PM 6/21/00 -0400, you wrote:
Jim,
Thanks for the citations. I'll try not to be so loose with terminology in
the future. Still, I'm not sure Robin Hahnel's LOOKING FORWARD is in quite
the same camp as Bellamy's LOOKING BACKWARD,
Bellamy's LOOKING BACKWARD is a classic -- or _the_
One final thought on the subject of utopianism:
All real-world judgments are comparative. People don't have a utility
thermometer that reads "97" when they evaluate a situation; instead,
they compare it to some benchmark and decide whether it's better or
worse, by a lot o
i have tried to follow your unsubscribe
instructions and i am still on it
please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
d I agreed with the first quote from Max, for the
purposes of that discussion.
More importantly, Tom writes: I'm afraid both sides beg the question of
what is "good stuff" and/or "positive social change" and focus on the
secondary issue of how it
happens. In some ways, this relates back t
My utopian badge is red and black and is polished every day by
the memory of millions who have given their lives for a more just
democratic economy that strengthens people's solidarity for one another.
ROBIN:I have always embraced the label "utopian" and wear the badge proudly.
KARL:What colour is it and is it a big or a small badge? I bet you polish
it every day to you mammy's delight.
Yours etc.,
I have always embraced the label "utopian" and wear the badge proudly.
I have also always criticized Marxists who rail against utopianism as
wrong headed if not self-serving. I'm sure Louis wears his labels with
pride.
On Sun, 30 Mar 1997, Robin Hahnel wrote:
For what its worth, the editorial board of Science and Society went through
this -- I must say tiresome -- debate over the sins of utopian thinking
before finally publishing their issue in 1992 on the Future of Socialism.
Poor David Laibman had to
I've been called worse by better than Comrade Proyect.
I mentioned my teaching of comparative systems and visits to work with
Cuban planners in an attempt to argue that, for better or worse, my utopian
thinking is not totally uninformed by some study and familiarity with the
history of "once
Mind if I butt in a bit into this discussion?
I have been thinking somewhat along your line of thought about Marxism and
utopianism for some time. My problem with your remarks is its blanket
assessment of Marxism as "utopian." I would suggest a more limited one:
that Marxis
s and have a limited imagination.
KARL: It would seem to me that the above comments are merely a ruse
to avoid concerning yourself on this list with the serious issue of the
status of marxism today.
I do not use the term "utopian" or "utopianism" as merely
another word
For the sake of not only my own ego-enlargement but also the
progress of pen-l debate, it's good to read Louis Proyect saying,
after simply repeating his previous points, that
Jim Devine is correct. Marx and Engels did respect what they
[the utopians] were doing since utopian publications,
LOUIS P: What I would no longer do is classify them as examples of
Marxist thought, which has its object the critique of capitalist
society in order to facilitate its destruction.
KARL: Your posting on Utopianism was interesting. However you seem to
take it for granted that marxism itself
KARL: Your posting on Utopianism was interesting. However you seem to
take it for granted that marxism itself is not another form of
utopianism
Part of the problem is terminology. Paul Phillips uses the word
interchangeably with "unrealistic". You use it as a synonym for irrelevant.
EN:0
CS:1
RC:0
DC:1
UR:0
SS:0
EX:0
FL:0
LOUIS P: What I would no longer do is classify them as examples of
Marxist thought, which has its object the critique of capitalist
society in order to facilitate its destruction.
KARL: Your posting on Utopianism was interesting. However you seem to
take
ays what's
wrong with a little utopianism, then he turns around and says that since he
spent time in Cuba, how can he be a utopian. I guess he is not sure how he
feels about being labeled as a utopian. Perhaps he would be happier if I
labeled him as a half-utopian.
I personally don't think utopia
These are some final thoughts on the utopian socialism question. What Marx
and Engels saw as three of the main features of utopian thought were:
1) Ahistoricism:
The utopian socialists did not see the class struggle as the locomotive of
history. While they saw socialism as being preferable to
At 01:40 PM 3/25/97 -0800, Karl Carlile wrote:
[SNIP]
KARL:Utopianism means striving for a state of being that is
unachievable. It means struggling for something that it is
historically impossible to establish. Utopianism is a political
philosophy and practice.This being utopian political
Yes, I saw this, hoping that it would pass without comments.
Let me take this one step further. If Robin takes this in stride -- and
I expect he will, then insults can be part of the rough and tumble of
the list, so long as they do not become the focus to the point of
distraction.
You might
Louis N Proyect wrote:
(I would urge people to shy away from Robin Hahnel's
work, however, since he is now revealed as an intellectual snob. Isn't it
funny how beneath the tie-dyed grooviness of a Z Magazine figure, there
lurks somebody who wants to rub your nose in their curricula vitae.)
For what it's worth, I respect Robin and Michael's
effort to introduce a democratic aspect to the planning
process, which seems to me to be the main virtue of their
system. I also note that I raised one problem
(aggregation) that has so far not received an answer.
Barkley Rosser
On Tue,
A KARL CARLILE MESSAGE
KARL: Hi Rosser!
ROSSER: But, I think that a certain amount of it is not only
healthy but necessary.
KARL:Utopianism means striving for a state of being that is
unachievable. It means struggling for something that it is
historically impossible to establish. Utopianism
Michael Albert and I developed our utopian model of a participatory economy
in large part in response to our historical evaluation of the strengths and
weaknesses of the Soviet, Chinese, Yugoslavian, and Cuban experiences. We
wrote about those experiences for 2/3 of a book -- Socialism Today and
Here! Here! Let's here it for a Jim Devine's defense of utopian thinking.
And, I'd like to add that I consider my recent reading of Bellamy's
Equality -- his lesser known but more complete work on utopianism --
and William Morris' News from Nowwhere -- a libertarian response to
what Morris
on the general topic of utopianism in the next day or two. This
will address many of his specific points.
Meanwhile, there is one thing that the above paragraph states that I want to
take issue with right away, because it can led to some confusion over what
we mean by "models".
Carl
post.
Rather than going over it point by point, I plan to put together some of my
thoughts on the general topic of utopianism in the next day or two. This
will address many of his specific points.
Meanwhile, there is one thing that the above paragraph states that I want to
take issue with
rapidly growing economy. China is hardly
utopianism, much less a utopia.
Barkley Rosser
On Mon, 24 Mar 1997 09:27:37 -0800 (PST) Louis Proyect
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Jim Devine:
First, many of the grass-roots supporters of the FSLN, not to mention the
middle-class cadre, had utopian
Louis P. has in the past berated various "sectarians"
on various lists for simply telling everybody to just talk
about the class struggle and that's that. Now, Louis
appears to be doing something similar here, along with the
idea that we should be thinking like the Yugoslav Partisans
mptomatic of a deeper malaise.
Sure, but don't the revolutionary socialists who eschew utopianism
also split over their views? and do so regularly? (What in heck is
the source of the animus on pen-l surrounding _Sozialismus_? it sure
seems like sectarianism.)
Does _any_ part of the left have a
re convinced
than ever that all scientific socialists can do is develop a critique of
capitalist society and become part of the larger political movement to
transform society along socialist lines.
BTW, I want to add that I think that workers' democratic control
over the elite who run a socialist e
Barkley:
But, given that arguably
Slovenia is _still_ an actually existing market socialist
economy, albeit trending to a market capitalism with heavy
worker-owned, worker-managed elements, one can hardly lay
the "utopian" label on the advocates of worker-managed
market socialism.
Louis:
we need to do is avoid blanket rejection of
say, HA. Instead, try to compare _your_ vision (a cleaned-up
version of Cuba?) with their vision. Argue that your vision is
better and explain why.
BTW, I want to add that I think that workers' democratic control
over the elite who run a sociali
Here, I define utopianism as an effort to make moral ideals more concrete,
to develop pictures of how "true socialism might actually work in practice"
or "true communism might work in practice."
Louis Proyect criticizes utopianism. I can understand why, but as Peter
Dorman p
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