to crucial concepts that
liberals (and even most leftists) in the United States appear
incapable of understanding -- honor and self-respect:
They [the Iraqis] would do so [revolt against the occupier] for their
own self-respect. In taking out Saddam, we robbed the Iraqis of the
honor of liberating
conservative are right (wing and correct), liberals are bleeding
hearts... michael hoover
--
These words mean something completely different in this part of the world:
conservative = communist. Don't even get me started on how inappropriate the
left/right political dichotomy a la the West
Jim Devine wrote:
unlikely to be coincidence that likes of derrida foucault
approvingly
cite and reference brumaire...
Althusser also liked it, no? as have lots of others (including myself)
who aren't pomo.
In the following passage (quoted by Yoshie recently on LBO), Althusser
claims the
and correct), liberals are bleeding
hearts... michael hoover
^^
CB: Agreeing with Michael, The Mid-20th Century, U.S. liberal ( not
oldtyme-laissez-faire liberals or neo-liberals) is characterized by
two-facedness, a bleeding heart, who ends up being forced to stab in the
back because
Jedgar says: if i may be allowed to invoke this stodgy ole' bearded guy, although in
this instance - '18th brumaire' - he's at his most postmodern (after
all, gotta try to make marx fashionable)...
I know that Michael is (probably) kidding, but what Marx is doing in the Brumaire bit
is working
JKS writes:
Ages ago I went to one of those Rethinking Marxism
conferences at UMAss Amherst, got into a conversationw
itha Resnick Wolff student about someone, I forget
what, but it was a or involved a question of empirical
fact that I didn't know the answer to. So I suggested
taht to find
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/01/04 12:38 PM
i thought liberals were bourgeois... michael hoover
Not high bourgeois, the people who own capital and run the state.
Among that set, Soros is about the only serious liberal (in the
social democratic sense). Aren't most liberals knowledge workers of
various
liberals, usually pronounced with a sneer). In other parts of the
world, they'd be called social democrats, but we don't really have
those here. They support labor law reform, higher minimum wage,
single payer health insurance, progressive taxation, civil liberties,
public funding of the arts, etc
At 6:15 PM -0400 4/5/04, Doug Henwood wrote:
I was using liberal in the sense that some of our more hardcore
participants use it to describe The Nation magazine (as in Nation
liberals, usually pronounced with a sneer). In other parts of the
world, they'd be called social democrats, but we don't
- in some general way -
a balance between market economy on one hand and state intervention on
other, there was a time long ago that social democrats wanted to abolish
capitalism, liberals never wanted to... michael hoover
_
MSN Toolbar
Sometimes it seems that liberals attract more fire on PEN-L than does
the bourgeoisie. I could understand this if we were in a period of
proto- or quasi-revolutionary ferment, when they'd be the co-opters
and/or betrayers. But right now, anyone in public life who stands up
for vaguely egalitarian
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 4/1/2004 12:28:24 PM
Sometimes it seems that liberals attract more fire on PEN-L than does
the bourgeoisie.
Doug
i thought liberals were bourgeois... michael hoover
Sometimes it seems that liberals attract more fire on PEN-L than
does the bourgeoisie. I could understand this if we were in a period
of proto- or quasi-revolutionary ferment, when they'd be the
co-opters and/or betrayers. But right now, anyone in public life who
stands up for vaguely egalitarian
Michael Hoover wrote:
i thought liberals were bourgeois... michael hoover
Not high bourgeois, the people who own capital and run the state.
Among that set, Soros is about the only serious liberal (in the
social democratic sense). Aren't most liberals knowledge workers of
various sorts?
Doug
Much of this discussion that seems to be overly predictable. Kerry has
hardly been a hero for the left, especially considering that he comes
from a fairly safe state. Bush is terrible from any reasonable
perspective.
From an electoral point of view, the basic question seems to have two
parts.
as being pretty close to attaining
the liberal ideal, so that only reforms are needed. In poor countries, the special
interests can have dictatorial power, so that liberals may be revolutionary.
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
Sometimes it seems that liberals attract more fire on PEN-L than does
the bourgeoisie. I could understand this if we were in a period of
proto- or quasi-revolutionary ferment, when they'd be the co-opters
and/or betrayers. But right now, anyone in public life who stands up
for vaguely
Doug Henwood wrote:
Michael Hoover wrote:
i thought liberals were bourgeois... michael hoover
Not high bourgeois, the people who own capital and run the state.
Among that set, Soros is about the only serious liberal (in the
social democratic sense). Aren't most liberals knowledge workers
Outsourcing IT overseas a problem? Nah, we just need more education!
http://www.cio.com/archive/092203/reich.html
Fall/Winter 2003 Issue of CIO Magazine
Robert Reich
Jobless in America
I.T. EMPLOYMENT is down 20 percent since early 2001. Salaries are down too. In 2000,
senior software
At 06/02/03 01:12 +, Alois wrote:
I look at PEN-L and all I see are a bunch of LIBERALS from universities
whose economic schemes all seem to involve big government coming in to
enact their redistributionist schemes. I see a lot of talk about
economics, including the discredited Marx
;
- Not narrow or contracted in mind; not selfish; enlarged in
spirit; catholic.
catholic? well, i guess you do belong here, amongst us liberals, after all!
wait, there's more:
- Not bound by orthodox tenets or established forms in
political or religious philosophy
Title: RE: [PEN-L:34374] PEN-L equals redistributionist LIBERALS
Alois writes:
#1 For all your carping about business, businesses CREATE JOBS. People
would be out of work if business did not create jobs for them.
-- why is it that JOBS are so important? why is it that people want THEM so
Well, thank god someone -- Chris Burford -- got to the point:
whether left wing political economy should primarily be about
fairer distribution.
In emphasizing liberalism with his caps -- redistributionist
LIBERALS -- Alois was right.
Andrew Kliman
someone -- Chris Burford -- got to the point:
whether left wing political economy should primarily be about
fairer distribution.
In emphasizing liberalism with his caps -- redistributionist
LIBERALS -- Alois was right.
Andrew Kliman
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California
.
Actually, mostly what all so-called liberals (and we might as well
just get it over with and use the imprecation fuckheads or some
other equivalent) want is to repair the forced mal-distribution that
has come about through massive, non-market state intervention that
gives privileges away
Title: RE: [PEN-L:34395] redistributionist liberals
I worry about how a big chunk of workers' effort (surplus-labor) is redistributed to another part of the population simply because the latter (with the blessing protection of the state) control the means of production and the ability
Alois wrote:
I look at PEN-L and all I see are a bunch of LIBERALS from universities
whose economic schemes all seem to involve big government coming in to
enact their redistributionist schemes.
At this point I was sure we were going to be told we should stop being
so reformist.
Carrol Cox wrote:
blunting working-class power in the imperialist center. I don't think
Lenin was right about super-profits providing a bribe for imperialist
workers, but that is quite secondary to his core perception that
imperialism, _in some way_, underwrites opportunism in the working
class.
Michael Perelman wrote:
I am not sure that distribution should be at the center. An auto worker
with 30 hours of overtime makes a good wage, but probably does not lead a
good life. Marx said that all economics comes down to the economics of
time.
It has always seemed to me that what
primarily be about
fairer distribution.
In emphasizing liberalism with his caps -- redistributionist
LIBERALS -- Alois was right.
Andrew Kliman
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Holy Nassau Senior, Perelman! What will become of the morals of our children and young
people if those auto workers are turned out
of the warm, pure atmosphere of the factory into the heartless and frivolous outer
world?
Michael Perelman wrote,
I am not sure that distribution should be at
Tom Walker wrote:
Holy Nassau Senior, Perelman! What will become of the morals of our children and young people if those auto workers are turned out
of the warm, pure atmosphere of the factory into the heartless and frivolous outer world?
What constitutes the alienation of labour?
Firstly,
- Original Message -
From: Bill Lear [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Harry Glasbeek has made a very firm contribution to economic justice
in his book *Wealth by Stealth: Corporate Crime, Corporate Law, and
the Perversion of Democracy* (Between the Lines, 2003).
=
An excellent
- Original Message -
From: Max B. Sawicky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I thot it was surplus value that was redistributed
in the first place.
love me, love me, love me, I'm a RD liberal . . .
mbs
=
Appropriated..
Quite apart from this crude tearing-apart of
I am not sure that distribution should be at the center. An autoworker with 30 hours of overtime makes a good wage, but probably does not lead a good life. Marx said that all economics comes down to the economics of
time.
The "economics of time" provides an entry point into the logic of the era
At 06/02/03 01:12 +, Alois wrote:
I look at PEN-L and all I see are a bunch of LIBERALS from universities whose economic schemes all seem to involve big government coming in to enact their redistributionist schemes. I see a lot of talk about economics, including the discredited Marx.
reply
I look at PEN-L and all I see are a bunch of LIBERALS from universities
whose economic schemes all seem to involve big government coming in to
enact their redistributionist schemes. I see a lot of talk about
economics, including the discredited Marx. Well here are some things that
you seem
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I look at PEN-L and all I see are a bunch of LIBERALS from universities
whose economic schemes all seem to involve big government coming in to
enact their redistributionist schemes. I see a lot of talk about
economics, including the discredited Marx. Well here are some
gee i never thought about it that way before . . .
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 8:12 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:34374] PEN-L equals redistributionist LIBERALS
I look
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
People who don't like working for a company should START THEIR OWN
BUSINESS.
And people who don't like getting old should JUST GET YOUNGER! People
who don't like being sick should JUST GET HEALTHY!
I can forsee an entire genre of SELF-HELP HERE.
Doug
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I look at PEN-L and all I see are a bunch of LIBERALS from universities
===
You forgot to mention that we're also a bunch of pantheists who see all of
space-time as a temple with way too many money changers wrecking the place.
Doug
Sounds good to me, maybe you've writing the wrong kind of books.
I'm sure you guys and gyns have discussed this already, but is Christopher
Hitchens on some kind of medication? He sounds not so much reactionary as to
my ears as incoherent, like the people who used to wander up and down
I'm a liberal, but not from a university. The universities didn't want me because i was too radical. This is actually true. jks
Ian Murray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
- Original Message -From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I look at PEN-L and all I see are a bunch of LIBERALS from univer
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I look at PEN-L and all I see are a bunch of LIBERALS
from universities
Absolutely right mate. In fact it might be worse than
that. I think that some of them are practically
SOCIALISTS! Perhaps it would help if somebody could
look up a few statistics from
are not liberals or
redistributionists --- we're _real_ socialists, or COMMUNISTS(!!!), both of
which imply common ownership of the means of production, not redistribution
... But I'm not sure you could get your head around the distinction.
I understand that in a letter to Bernstein in 1882 on the South Slav
question, Engels noted in passing that at first he and Marx, like many
other people, were liberals and radicals. (but now in the context of
Russian Czarism it was necessary to get rid of sympathy for the oppressed
South
Jim,
It's simple. Liberals keep the system going.
Seth :-)
Michael Perelman wrote:
I mentioned before how much I enjoyed the new book by Rampton and Stauber.
Their research on the public relations industry indicates how intensively
ideology is cultivated in United States. I think
NY Times, December 11, 2000
Supporting the Cause on a Cruise
By ALEX KUCZYNSKI
ABOARD M.S. RYNDAM, off Cuba, Dec. 7 - Three hundred readers of The Nation
magazine sipped coffee and ate breakfast pastries in a dimly lighted
auditorium where they had gathered to hear a lecture about the
Date sent: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:00:07 -0500
From: Wojtek Sokolowski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[PEN-L:4658] Re: Moral Blindness of Serb "liberals"
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Copies to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
At 11:41 PM 3/29/99 +0100, Chris Burford wrote:
Similar argument to that of the racist white South Africans, who would
visit Britain. When you protested the treatment of the black majority, they
would say, have you ever been to South Africa?
Wojtek's question is similarly disingenuous. He knows
s warned repeatedly that NATO airstrikes would only hurt
the fragile community of pro-democracy groups, independent journalists and
student activists in Belgrade. At first glance, the NATO airstrikes have,
predictably, fueled a backlash within Serbia against political liberals like
Matic.
Belgrade'
Nathan Newman wrote:
This is an interesting article by SALON, with a bit of ammunition for both
sides of the bombing debate, but it does make clear that even the most
liberal of Serbs have ultimately been apologists for Serbia's atrocities.--
Not unlike the way liberal Americans can be
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--part0_920868000_boundary
In a message dated 3/7/99 2:18:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Subj: Liberals told police about casino corruption
Date: 3/7/99 2:18:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED
,
Washington, D.C. 20009. Add $10 for foreign subscriptions.
March 16-31, 1998
Ken Silverstein Alexander Cockburn
Counter Punch
VOL. 5, NO. 6
IN THIS ISSUE Liberals Bail Out the IMF -IT's THOSE FIERY LIBERALS
AGAIN, SHILLING FOR THE BIG BANKS
* AFL-CIO, Dave Bonior
.
Since the federal Liberals eliminated the Canada Assistance
Act in 1995 which set national welfare standards, and cut
transfer payments to the provinces by almost $7 billion,
provincial governments have passed legislation and/or implemented
measures which target welfare recipients for attack. Loren
liminating the
deficit; it has a "policy objective" which "it is working hard to
achieve," when it comes to eliminating child poverty.
Canadians know exactly what the Chretien Liberals are all
about. Canada has more than enough resources to eliminate child
poverty immediat
ing to
whether they support or oppose Quebec's right to
self-determination, can be called self-destructive, but not a
"clear perspective."
Far from creating an "open and realistic atmosphere," the
activities of the Chretien Liberals for the last two months have
shown tha
_The Manitoban_, U of M's student rag, ran a story last week on MAI. Here's
an excerpt:
"Edwards [Canada's Assitant Deputy Minister for Trade and Economic Policy]
admits that, to date, there have been no public consultations, but he
doesn't feel they were necessary because 'we have, over the
The Globe and Mail Tuesday, June 10, 1997
Slashing is over, Liberals predict
Party to put on a beneficient face
By Scott Feschuk and Hugh Winsor Parliamentary Bureau
As members of the new and old Liberal caucuses met yesterday in Ottawa, the
message
--Boundary (ID BRKXheC41LXm75fhCiSTnw)
The Chretien Liberals have been using deception in order to get
themselves re-elected. This even leads them to suggest that if
Canadians re-elect them for another term of office, there will be
a change in the course of paying the rich and cutting
Can anyone explain why this message came through with =20 at the end on
every line and =C9 for is? It only happens rarely and must be some sort of
translation problem.
Roger
--
From: pen-l
Subject: [PEN-L:9444] Liberals, NDP harmonize positions
The Ottawa Citizen Thursday 10 April 1997
CHRÉTIEN CALLS FOR GLOBAL FREE TRADE
PM explains radical conversion
Julian Beltrame, The Ottawa Citizen
WASHINGTON -- Prime Minister Jean Chrétien gave his most detailed
explanation
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