Re: stackoverflow vs the world (and perl6-users)
Here's my experience: when I'm learning a new language or software, eg., php or css or recently GRAV CMS, and I have a problem, my first action is google: . I'm sure everyone does something like this. Whenever I see a response that includes Stackoverflow, I look there first because for over a year now I have found that the answers given there provide me either a complete solution that I can cut and paste, or enough clues to work out what I need. Some new software, such as GRAV, do not produce Stackoverflow responses, so I have to go to the forum and dig through stuff. But at least it is indexed. With Perl6, the first place I go is the documentation, which has always been good and is getting better. However, there are some practical questions that have been answered in this list with really very good explanations, not just about the problem, but also why. For a language, the 'why' can often be more important. Stackoverflow is - I think - a great resource (I grant there are the normal human problems, but what human system is perfect?) because it provides answers. I can therefore see why there is a drive by some to get Perl6 Q&A on Stackoverflow. However, the portal to Stackoverflow is (for me) Google. And Google indexes much much more than Stackoverflow. Some of the Q&A asked on this list are not indexed in a way that would bring them to the notice of someone looking for a similar question. So the real question for me is not 'where to ask questions so that people can see them?', but 'how to make Perl6 questions indexable?'. Richard aka finanalyst On 13/06/18 05:44, Brad Gilbert wrote: On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 3:57 PM, Brandon Allbery wrote: I replied to this one in private, but I want to make a point in public as well. On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 4:24 PM Brad Gilbert wrote: The barrier is not with Stack Overflow. (←What I obviously meant) The barrier is within you. There's an insidious assumption hidden in here: that "the barrier is within you" means it's a modifiable barrier. Or, for that matter, it should be. For some of us, it's not. I was not overstating earlier when I made a reference to the Nobel Prize. And there are also those for whom it's not as modifiable as this attitude assumes, or for whom modifying it is not the best of ideas. Think about this one a bit next time you want to tell someone it's "all in their head". Because it might just be literally true. I absolutely knew it was literally true. I then proceeded to point out the same in my own life. I did not intend to imply that it was easy to deal with. (Note for others reading this there have been messages off list about this)
Re: stackoverflow vs the world (and perl6-users)
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 3:57 PM, Brandon Allbery wrote: > I replied to this one in private, but I want to make a point in public as > well. > > On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 4:24 PM Brad Gilbert wrote: >> >> The barrier is not with Stack Overflow. (←What I obviously meant) >> The barrier is within you. > > > There's an insidious assumption hidden in here: that "the barrier is within > you" means it's a modifiable barrier. Or, for that matter, it should be. > > For some of us, it's not. I was not overstating earlier when I made a > reference to the Nobel Prize. > And there are also those for whom it's not as modifiable as this attitude > assumes, or for whom modifying it is not the best of ideas. > > Think about this one a bit next time you want to tell someone it's "all in > their head". Because it might just be literally true. > I absolutely knew it was literally true. I then proceeded to point out the same in my own life. I did not intend to imply that it was easy to deal with. (Note for others reading this there have been messages off list about this)
Re: stackoverflow vs the world (and perl6-users)
I replied to this one in private, but I want to make a point in public as well. On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 4:24 PM Brad Gilbert wrote: > The barrier is not with Stack Overflow. (←What I obviously meant) > The barrier is within you. > There's an insidious assumption hidden in here: that "the barrier is within you" means it's a modifiable barrier. Or, for that matter, it should be. For some of us, it's not. I was not overstating earlier when I made a reference to the Nobel Prize. And there are also those for whom it's not as modifiable as this attitude assumes, or for whom modifying it is not the best of ideas. Think about this one a bit next time you want to tell someone it's "all in their head". Because it might just be literally true. -- brandon s allbery kf8nh sine nomine associates allber...@gmail.com ballb...@sinenomine.net unix, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure, xmonadhttp://sinenomine.net
Re: stackoverflow vs the world (and perl6-users)
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 2:42 PM, Brandon Allbery wrote: > On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 3:38 PM Brad Gilbert wrote: >> >> > The barrier is non-existent. >> >> I have only ever heard about speculated and imagined barriers. > > > This is not proof that such barriers don't exist. I hit the magic 2 mark > and lasted less than a week afterward because the rules suddenly changed in > a way that induced severe social anxiety. Again, this is not something > "fixable", not on my end. The rules did not change. It's just features that you didn't have before became available. You are free to ignore them. If you can't ignore them, you could try bringing it up on meta.stackoverflow.com, and maybe someone there could do something to improve it for you. > > You are not everyone. Don't assume what works for you necessarily works for > everyone. Or that there are quick and accessible workarounds for everyone. > The barrier is not with Stack Overflow. (←What I obviously meant) The barrier is within you. I should know I have some myself. For example, I have never gotten a job by myself. (Well there is the one time where they called on the phone, but I didn't pick it up because I didn't recognize the number.) I have also never been on a date as it gives me too much anxiety to ask. (There was one gal that I was absolutely smitten with, who I was also absolutely sure wanted me to ask her out, but was unable to.) Should I say that the barrier is with women (incel), or with myself? --- That's not to say there isn't something that other people could do to reduce the barrier. I don't think anybody can do that if they don't know it exists. If you at least tell me what changes could help, I could bring it up on meta.
Re: stackoverflow vs the world (and perl6-users)
As I said, all and any reason to not post in StackOverflow are valid. Just
add a few points here
El mar., 12 jun. 2018 a las 21:19, Brad Gilbert ()
escribió:
> Stack Overflow is from Fog Creek Software.
> See https://stackoverflow.com/company
>
> They also regularly provide bulk downloads of all the publically available
> data.
>
>
They also have a query engine for that data, you can use it for free. It's
really amazing, and helps you see trends and associations.
> > (4) I've seen some complaints about stackoverflow moderators that
> > seemed all-too-familiar-- power tripping for the sake of it. They
> > seem to be a bit trigger-happy about shutting down interesting and
> > illuminating discussion ("this is all just matter of opinion!").
> > It's not at all unusual to do a web search on a question and end up at
> > a stackoverflow page that a moderator has marked as "Closed".
>
> Very few questions are closed by moderators.
>
I don't know about that, but of course it can be checked using the
above-mentioned data query facility. But in the months I have been
following the tag, there's a single question that has been closed. It
didn't deserve it, in my opinion, and I did my best to try and keep it
open. In general, the community following the perl6 tag is as welcoming and
helpful as the perl6 community, in general.
> (5) I question how much it improves visibility to post perl6 material
> > at stackoverflow: there's so much stuff there very few people look at
> > the place as a whole: the only people likely to look at a perl6
> > discussion are the people who are already interested in perl6.
>
> Stack Overflow puts out data about how many questions get asked
> for each language. So by putting it there we influence their stats.
>
>
That's correct. And that goes also to the TIOBE rankings and somesuch. But
scaling those rankings is really, really, far away. I just want people to
find Perl6 questions easily, and for people in general who follow other,
related tags like regexes or unicode to see perl6 questions so that they
are interested in it.
JJ
Re: stackoverflow vs the world (and perl6-users)
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 3:38 PM Brad Gilbert wrote: > > The barrier is non-existent. > > I have only ever heard about speculated and imagined barriers. > This is not proof that such barriers don't exist. I hit the magic 2 mark and lasted less than a week afterward because the rules suddenly changed in a way that induced severe social anxiety. Again, this is not something "fixable", not on my end. You are not everyone. Don't assume what works for you necessarily works for everyone. Or that there are quick and accessible workarounds for everyone. -- brandon s allbery kf8nh sine nomine associates allber...@gmail.com ballb...@sinenomine.net unix, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure, xmonadhttp://sinenomine.net
Re: stackoverflow vs the world (and perl6-users)
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 2:29 PM, The Sidhekin wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 9:18 PM, Brad Gilbert wrote: >> >> On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 1:19 PM, Joseph Brenner wrote: >> > Attention conservation: it's unlikely I'm going to say something >> > interesting you haven't thought of already. >> > >> > A side-discussion that came up here: should you ask questions here, or >> > at stackoverflow (or both here *and* at stackoverflow). >> > >> > I understand the argument that it's better to talk about perl in >> > public where non-perl might see it (to help counter that "perl is >> > dead" impression that's floating around). Getting more involved with >> > stackoverflow has been on my list for a long time... and yet I haven't >> > gotten to it. Why not? >> > >> > (1) The barrier at stackoverflow to a beginner is probably higher than >> > you think it is-- it's not at all obvious what you're allowed to do >> > and what you're not at the outset. >> >> The barrier is non-existent. > > > > Your failure of imagination does not make that barrier any less real. > I have only ever heard about speculated and imagined barriers. Note that even being blind shouldn't be a barrier, as they try hard to make it accessible. As long as you follow the rules, there isn't much of anything slowing you down. Basically I don't think I need to imagine them because I have already heard/read them.
Re: stackoverflow vs the world (and perl6-users)
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 9:18 PM, Brad Gilbert wrote: > On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 1:19 PM, Joseph Brenner wrote: > > Attention conservation: it's unlikely I'm going to say something > > interesting you haven't thought of already. > > > > A side-discussion that came up here: should you ask questions here, or > > at stackoverflow (or both here *and* at stackoverflow). > > > > I understand the argument that it's better to talk about perl in > > public where non-perl might see it (to help counter that "perl is > > dead" impression that's floating around). Getting more involved with > > stackoverflow has been on my list for a long time... and yet I haven't > > gotten to it. Why not? > > > > (1) The barrier at stackoverflow to a beginner is probably higher than > > you think it is-- it's not at all obvious what you're allowed to do > > and what you're not at the outset. > > The barrier is non-existent. > Your failure of imagination does not make that barrier any less real. Eirik
Re: stackoverflow vs the world (and perl6-users)
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 1:19 PM, Joseph Brenner wrote:
> Attention conservation: it's unlikely I'm going to say something
> interesting you haven't thought of already.
>
> A side-discussion that came up here: should you ask questions here, or
> at stackoverflow (or both here *and* at stackoverflow).
>
> I understand the argument that it's better to talk about perl in
> public where non-perl might see it (to help counter that "perl is
> dead" impression that's floating around). Getting more involved with
> stackoverflow has been on my list for a long time... and yet I haven't
> gotten to it. Why not?
>
> (1) The barrier at stackoverflow to a beginner is probably higher than
> you think it is-- it's not at all obvious what you're allowed to do
> and what you're not at the outset.
The barrier is non-existent.
You don't have to even create an account to post on it.
(You should if you want to be able to edit or delete your posts after
your cookie expires.)
If you have code that you can't get to work the way you think it should,
it is the right place to ask. All other questions are off topic.
On the ask question page they have a list of the rules.
I think they may even have a mini tutorial for first-time users.
> (2) Stackoverflow is centralized, I don't know really who's in control
> of it (and early on I had the impression they were a bunch of
> microsofties). Email has the virtue of being federated-- or it would
> be if we weren't all using gmail-- and if there's a web archive it's
> also indexed.
Stack Overflow is from Fog Creek Software.
See https://stackoverflow.com/company
They also regularly provide bulk downloads of all the publically available data.
> (3) Stackoverflow may be "well indexed", but I haven't noticed this
> being very helpful for perl6 where many things are huffmaned down
> below the level where they can work as grep crumbs. E.g. "does" vs.
> "but" and perhaps worse "=" vs. ":=".
That is fair, but other languages have the same problem.
Since a lot of them use Stack Overflow, they know they can search
there instead.
> (4) I've seen some complaints about stackoverflow moderators that
> seemed all-too-familiar-- power tripping for the sake of it. They
> seem to be a bit trigger-happy about shutting down interesting and
> illuminating discussion ("this is all just matter of opinion!").
> It's not at all unusual to do a web search on a question and end up at
> a stackoverflow page that a moderator has marked as "Closed".
Very few questions are closed by moderators.
The vast majority are voted to be closed by users.
In fact some moderators refuse to vote to close iffy questions,
because their vote counts as 5 regular users.
If you ask what is the best module for doing X, that is considered
to broad.
If you are having trouble using a particular module, then it is not.
If you ask a homework question, then it is too broad.
If you ask what is wrong with my homework it isn't.
(it may be closed anyway if enough users think it shouldn't be there)
The reasoning for this is to prevent it from becoming another
Yahoo! answers. (They have said this many times on the podcast)
Also note that you are still allowed to edit it to follow the rules.
If enough people agree that you have sufficiently fixed it, they
can vote to reopen it.
If it is sufficiently bad, users will vote to delete it.
Moderators are also elected. So if one of them abuses their
power they risk losing their moderator privileges.
The main purpose of moderators is to fix problems the regular
system doesn't work sufficiently for.
(Spam, bulk voting, sock puppet accounts, abusive speech,
joining accounts, etc)
Basically your remark about mods power tripping is baseless.
The only real problem is that some people don't like the rules.
(Even though most rules have been added by user demand.)
> (5) I question how much it improves visibility to post perl6 material
> at stackoverflow: there's so much stuff there very few people look at
> the place as a whole: the only people likely to look at a perl6
> discussion are the people who are already interested in perl6.
Stack Overflow puts out data about how many questions get asked
for each language. So by putting it there we influence their stats.
This is the main reason JJ keeps saying to post there.
---
Note that I have been following the development of StackOverflow
since before they had a private beta. (podcasts)
I'm user number 1337 by the way.
I may be the only Perl programmer to receive the Beta badge.
Re: stackoverflow vs the world (and perl6-users)
Hi El mar., 12 jun. 2018 a las 20:33, Joseph Brenner () escribió: > Right, that's still another issue: it really does invariably come off > as rude if you camp out at one discussion site and try to redirect > the traffic to your own favorite one. > I think that by now it's quite clear that wasn't my intention, and that the main problem was a misplaced "also". Never, ever, would I want to do that. > > But then, JJ Merelo (and Elizabeth Mattijsen) really aren't even > very bad offenders, as these things go. The fall-back position > about talking about things in both places is interesting-- though a > little impractical for obvious reasons. > I hope it's clear by now, but that was _never_ the intention. Never "stop asking here, go there". It was _always_ please go there _too_ if you want, or like, or prefer. I mean, I've never refrained from helping anyone if I could. I've helped and _then_ asked to please, if that's OK with everyone, ask from time to time in SO. Even the self same question. > > (Myself, I'm toying with the idea that I might start posting some > softball questions at stackoverflow, even if I already know the > answer to them.) > :-) I mean, that's really the thing. You look for other languages, it's like "how to do print to STDOUT". I mean, I sometimes have to look on how to print to STDOUT. I haven't seen that yet in Perl 6, but when it shows up we'll be sure to answer like the welcoming, helpful and diverse community we are. Again, thanks for opening up the discussion and giving me the chance to clarify my position. JJ
Re: stackoverflow vs the world (and perl6-users)
Right, that's still another issue: it really does invariably come off
as rude if you camp out at one discussion site and try to redirect
the traffic to your own favorite one.
But then, JJ Merelo (and Elizabeth Mattijsen) really aren't even
very bad offenders, as these things go. The fall-back position
about talking about things in both places is interesting-- though a
little impractical for obvious reasons.
(Myself, I'm toying with the idea that I might start posting some
softball questions at stackoverflow, even if I already know the
answer to them.)
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 11:25 AM, Brandon Allbery wrote:
> I'm going to stay out of this one, except to the point that my problem with
> stackoverflow is none of these. It's more fundamental than that. And it's
> not something that can be "fixed" on my side. (Suffice it that there might
> be a Nobel Prize in medicine for someone who figures out how to do that.)
>
> Which last part also applies to the topic that spawned this one, and is why
> it is coming across as "you don't belong here".
>
> On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 2:20 PM Joseph Brenner wrote:
>>
>> Attention conservation: it's unlikely I'm going to say something
>> interesting you haven't thought of already.
>>
>> A side-discussion that came up here: should you ask questions here, or
>> at stackoverflow (or both here *and* at stackoverflow).
>>
>> I understand the argument that it's better to talk about perl in
>> public where non-perl might see it (to help counter that "perl is
>> dead" impression that's floating around). Getting more involved with
>> stackoverflow has been on my list for a long time... and yet I haven't
>> gotten to it. Why not?
>>
>> (1) The barrier at stackoverflow to a beginner is probably higher than
>> you think it is-- it's not at all obvious what you're allowed to do
>> and what you're not at the outset.
>>
>> (2) Stackoverflow is centralized, I don't know really who's in control
>> of it (and early on I had the impression they were a bunch of
>> microsofties). Email has the virtue of being federated-- or it would
>> be if we weren't all using gmail-- and if there's a web archive it's
>> also indexed.
>>
>> (3) Stackoverflow may be "well indexed", but I haven't noticed this
>> being very helpful for perl6 where many things are huffmaned down
>> below the level where they can work as grep crumbs. E.g. "does" vs.
>> "but" and perhaps worse "=" vs. ":=".
>>
>> (4) I've seen some complaints about stackoverflow moderators that
>> seemed all-too-familiar-- power tripping for the sake of it. They
>> seem to be a bit trigger-happy about shutting down interesting and
>> illuminating discussion ("this is all just matter of opinion!").
>> It's not at all unusual to do a web search on a question and end up at
>> a stackoverflow page that a moderator has marked as "Closed".
>>
>> (5) I question how much it improves visibility to post perl6 material
>> at stackoverflow: there's so much stuff there very few people look at
>> the place as a whole: the only people likely to look at a perl6
>> discussion are the people who are already interested in perl6.
>
>
>
> --
> brandon s allbery kf8nh sine nomine associates
> allber...@gmail.com ballb...@sinenomine.net
> unix, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure, xmonadhttp://sinenomine.net
Re: stackoverflow vs the world (and perl6-users)
I'm going to stay out of this one, except to the point that my problem with
stackoverflow is none of these. It's more fundamental than that. And it's
not something that can be "fixed" on my side. (Suffice it that there might
be a Nobel Prize in medicine for someone who figures out how to do that.)
Which last part also applies to the topic that spawned this one, and is why
it is coming across as "you don't belong here".
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 2:20 PM Joseph Brenner wrote:
> Attention conservation: it's unlikely I'm going to say something
> interesting you haven't thought of already.
>
> A side-discussion that came up here: should you ask questions here, or
> at stackoverflow (or both here *and* at stackoverflow).
>
> I understand the argument that it's better to talk about perl in
> public where non-perl might see it (to help counter that "perl is
> dead" impression that's floating around). Getting more involved with
> stackoverflow has been on my list for a long time... and yet I haven't
> gotten to it. Why not?
>
> (1) The barrier at stackoverflow to a beginner is probably higher than
> you think it is-- it's not at all obvious what you're allowed to do
> and what you're not at the outset.
>
> (2) Stackoverflow is centralized, I don't know really who's in control
> of it (and early on I had the impression they were a bunch of
> microsofties). Email has the virtue of being federated-- or it would
> be if we weren't all using gmail-- and if there's a web archive it's
> also indexed.
>
> (3) Stackoverflow may be "well indexed", but I haven't noticed this
> being very helpful for perl6 where many things are huffmaned down
> below the level where they can work as grep crumbs. E.g. "does" vs.
> "but" and perhaps worse "=" vs. ":=".
>
> (4) I've seen some complaints about stackoverflow moderators that
> seemed all-too-familiar-- power tripping for the sake of it. They
> seem to be a bit trigger-happy about shutting down interesting and
> illuminating discussion ("this is all just matter of opinion!").
> It's not at all unusual to do a web search on a question and end up at
> a stackoverflow page that a moderator has marked as "Closed".
>
> (5) I question how much it improves visibility to post perl6 material
> at stackoverflow: there's so much stuff there very few people look at
> the place as a whole: the only people likely to look at a perl6
> discussion are the people who are already interested in perl6.
>
--
brandon s allbery kf8nh sine nomine associates
allber...@gmail.com ballb...@sinenomine.net
unix, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure, xmonadhttp://sinenomine.net
