Re: Mac info for Persian
On Wed, 19 May 2004, Behnam wrote: > That's alright. I don't like to make a fool of myself if it's not in > public! I feel the same way! > answer to your specific > questions, I'll send them later. Thank you for your blurb. But you sound very pessimistic when the screenshot you sent me (privately) of the Tajik page was in fact, quite nice. There is no hurry on the specific questions. Whenever you feel like it, if ever... -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Mac info for Persian
On 19-May-04, at 7:21 PM, C Bobroff wrote: On Wed, 19 May 2004, Behnam wrote: I don't see its use in Perso-Arabic script. I meant both Latin input and output here. The punishment for misunderstanding the question is that you have to answer some Mac questions! (New form of flaming, hope you like it!) I'm getting 1 or 2 Mac users per week asking for info on how to type Persian and I just am not sure what the state of the technology is so can you please give the definitive guide? (And anyone else who can please contribute, also, so there is one place with the basic info.) See my next post. Thanks in advance! -Connie That's alright. I don't like to make a fool of myself if it's not in public! I give you a general answer here (just because you cornered me!) and leave the rest to the experts you are addressing to (and I am certainly not one of them) if I found time and had answer to your specific questions, I'll send them later. Hello Mac expert(s), Below are some Persian Mac questions. Any answers you can supply would be greatly appreciated. You can also add your own questions or re-word! Thank you! The new Mac operating system version 10 (X) is built on top of Unix and is completely a different beast compared to precedent versions up to OS 9 therefore you should completely differentiate between the quality and the level of Persian support in Macintosh before X and after X. All the established Persian supports on Mac belong to previous system and they don't run on OS 10. Apple, knowing that this giant leap will leave a lot of Mac users behind (not necessarily minding Persian users) with a magical trickery, managed to include OS 9 within its X system. Meaning that OS 9 can run within OS X. Although it is very convenient to be able to run old programs on OS X, but essentially they are running on OS 9 within OS X and this is a transitional and temporary solution, until software developers produce the X version of the programs they produced for OS 9 and before. If software developers were "upgrading" their products with Mac transition from OS 8 to OS 9, this time around they have to re-write them completely for OS X and this is the difficulty for marginal market products. By and large, this transitional period for Roman based language users is already over and most major applications and programs are already available in X version. RTL languages are so far left behind and the first and obvious reason is lack of market appeal. There is no more development or even support for OS 9 based applications. The future is OS 10 which is not yet materialized for marginal languages users and at the same time the past (OS 9) is rapidly fading. It is not a very interesting time for Mac users of marginal languages but the fantastic potentials of the new OS X system keeps me very optimistic. Behnam WORD-PROCESSING 1. Is it possible to type complete and correct Persian including ZWNJ and punctuation in a text editor/word processor that comes with the Mac itself? If yes, on which versions of Mac? 2. What is the font situation like? Additional fonts available online? For purchase? Free? 3. Is the default keyboard ok? Can you customize it? Is there also a phonetic input option? 4. What, why and where are Nisus Writer and Melal (and others)? Can they be used as/instead of an upgrade with older versions of Macs that don't do Persian text correctly? (Links to these products?) 5. Are there Mac support groups? Is there a way to contact Apple Persian support for feedback on Word-processing issues? Other helpful links? WEB VIEWING 1. Is it possible to see Persian websites correctly? Even harakat, punctuation, ZWNJ? On which Mac/Browser(s)? 2. Is the default font ok? Easy to specify your own if not? 3. Support groups? Apple support? Other useful links? ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Mac info for Persian
Hello Mac expert(s), Below are some Persian Mac questions. Any answers you can supply would be greatly appreciated. You can also add your own questions or re-word! Thank you! WORD-PROCESSING 1. Is it possible to type complete and correct Persian including ZWNJ and punctuation in a text editor/word processor that comes with the Mac itself? If yes, on which versions of Mac? 2. What is the font situation like? Additional fonts available online? For purchase? Free? 3. Is the default keyboard ok? Can you customize it? Is there also a phonetic input option? 4. What, why and where are Nisus Writer and Melal (and others)? Can they be used as/instead of an upgrade with older versions of Macs that don't do Persian text correctly? (Links to these products?) 5. Are there Mac support groups? Is there a way to contact Apple Persian support for feedback on Word-processing issues? Other helpful links? WEB VIEWING 1. Is it possible to see Persian websites correctly? Even harakat, punctuation, ZWNJ? On which Mac/Browser(s)? 2. Is the default font ok? Easy to specify your own if not? 3. Support groups? Apple support? Other useful links? ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)
On Wed, 19 May 2004, Behnam wrote: > I don't see its use in Perso-Arabic script. I meant both Latin input and output here. The punishment for misunderstanding the question is that you have to answer some Mac questions! (New form of flaming, hope you like it!) I'm getting 1 or 2 Mac users per week asking for info on how to type Persian and I just am not sure what the state of the technology is so can you please give the definitive guide? (And anyone else who can please contribute, also, so there is one place with the basic info.) See my next post. Thanks in advance! -Connie > On 19-May-04, at 5:38 PM, C Bobroff wrote: > > > U+2011 should definitely be part of the custom Perso-Arabic > > transliteration keyboards. (Hint to Peter) > > ___ > PersianComputing mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing > ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)
On 19-May-04, at 1:55 AM, C Bobroff wrote: Actually, all this off-topic mix of calendars and philosophy has reminded me that when I was writing something (in English) a few months ago on Al-Biruni, whenever his name came up at the end of the line in Word, it would wrap and so the "Al-" would be on one line and the "Biruni" would go down to the next. This seemed not very respectful to break up a great man's name like that! Is there any way to type a hyphen that will resist break-up during wrapping? -Connie The Unicode character is U-2011, Non-Breaking Hyphen. If you don't have it on your keyboard, you may be able to use this information to type it with other tools or utilities. Or you can drop the "Al-" altogether. If I remember correctly, his street name in Iran was "Biruni" short and simple! Behnam ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)
I don't see its use in Perso-Arabic script. B. On 19-May-04, at 5:38 PM, C Bobroff wrote: U+2011 should definitely be part of the custom Perso-Arabic transliteration keyboards. (Hint to Peter) ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)
Dear Hooman, > I may move these stories to my pending > weblog which hopefully will open in the next several days. Why should you move to your weblog? I can't think of a better place for the story of Persian computing than PersianComputing. > One more thing, the reason that I may seem talented for story telling > is that I am an INFP (http://www.personalitypage.com/INFP.html), so > be-warned. Glad to know just what we're up against here! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)
On Wed, 19 May 2004, Behnam wrote: > The Unicode character is U-2011, Non-Breaking Hyphen. If you don't have > it on your keyboard, you may be able to use this information to type it > with other tools or utilities. As Ordak D. Coward reports, Ctrl-Shift-Hyphen instead of hyphen does the trick in Word. (I checked.) I never thought of using Help. What a novel idea! U+2011 should definitely be part of the custom Perso-Arabic transliteration keyboards. (Hint to Peter) > Or you can drop the "Al-" altogether. If I remember correctly, his > street name in Iran was "Biruni" short and simple! Yes, you have to keep the audience in mind and pick from Abu Rayhan, Biruni, al-Biruni. Worse with (al-)Ghaz(z)ali. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Miscellaneous web issues
On Wed, 19 May 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: > Interesting. Sorry for my ignorance, but is that keyboard available > publicly? You can re-live its creation here in the archives: http://lists.sharif.edu/pipermail/persiancomputing/2003-June/000538.html And you can download it here: http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/farsitools/persiankeyboard.zip?download A PDF file with the layout is here: http://lists.sharif.edu/pipermail/persiancomputing/attachments/20030612/2e85a1ad/PersianKL_preview.pdf I've also repeated the above here if you don't like ZIP files or have some other problem. http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/kb.htm Roozbeh, is it not time to remove the "experimental" from its name? > Why not? The \u syntax allows you to represent Unicode characters in > JavaScript. Now I know. > Well, on Mozilla1.2.1 that I tested it on, if you replaces ZWNJ in the > description of the Tajik array indices with then it seems to work > happily. Try giving it a test. Done! Beautiful! I hope the Mozilla users appreciate all this trouble. Thanks again for all your help! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)
Dear Connie, Thank you very much for your interest and support. I will try to start talking about such things soon. I may move these stories to my pending weblog which hopefully will open in the next several days. When I start the weblog I will announce it here. Although my limited time may prevent me from posting often. One more thing, the reason that I may seem talented for story telling is that I am an INFP (http://www.personalitypage.com/INFP.html), so be-warned. Hooman On May 19, 2004, at 10:24 AM, C Bobroff wrote: On Tue, 18 May 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote: On a second thought, I got reluctant to discuss this matter on the list. It would be way off topic. Moreover, I am afraid that whatever I say could be interpreted as political statement or religious evangelism and start flamewars. Looks like Fortune smiled upon you and you managed to post without getting flamed. So, with this newly acquired confidence and since you have some talent in story-telling, are you going to please tell us about your past crimes soon? Nimrooz, etc? I mean, from the beginning and please don't skimp on the details. I think I'm not the only one who would love to hear it! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Miscellaneous web issues
> It appears taking a break is the best cure. Some progress: Yes. It certainly is. Good to hear the problem's solved. [snip] > Find/Replace [the invisible] ZWNJ in Notepad is no problem becuase I > have the Persian Experimental Keyboard and ZWNJ is right on Shift-b. > Although I can't actually SEE that I've typed ZWNJ in the Find box, it > really is there. So now in my .js array, I have a few Persian words > with \u200c right in the middle of the Persian script. Interesting. Sorry for my ignorance, but is that keyboard available publicly? > It doesn't seem like the browsers should be able to handle that but > now I see it's not a problem. Why not? The \u syntax allows you to represent Unicode characters in JavaScript. > Only thing I have to > remember is to re-open the Notepad file in a non-WYSIWYG editor and > delete that BOM creature. > > Mozilla is now able to "find" my words containing ZWNJ which was the > whole point of this exercise. > > One small problem still remains: in Mozilla, if you click on any Tajik > word, it shows you the Persian counterpart in the popup. > But Mozilla is not able to display the ZWNJ so that is ignored. > I'm not sure what to do to solve this. Well, on Mozilla1.2.1 that I tested it on, if you replaces ZWNJ in the description of the Tajik array indices with then it seems to work happily. Try giving it a test. - Ehsan Akhgari Farda Technology (http://www.farda-tech.com/) List Owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ WWW: http://www.beginthread.com/Ehsan ] ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)
Hi Ordak, What you say makes perfect sense. I just didn't want to go into detail of everything in this regard. Suffice it so say, in such cases people come to agreement on establishing such authorities as part of their civil society. I vaguely hinted this in my post. Such an authority develops out of the needs of daily social life and as a normal (say democratic) civil authority and not a dictated sacred authority which could abuse its power by taking calendar hostage. Note that it gets very tricky for a religion to define and establish something. There is endless potential for abuse. People tend to put a sacred halo around it, and you know what happens next... So, the calendar authority is needed but religion is not in the right entity to establish it. When a religion needs to rely on a calendar, it needs to establish it in a way that the algorithm is very simple and accessible for ordinary people and ensure that it leaves the origin of the authority (or decision) with people so that they can delegate their right as they see fit. The fact that Iranian authorities in this regard act as if they are directly appointed by God is another story... Hooman On May 19, 2004, at 3:04 AM, Ordak D. Coward wrote: Dear Hooman, I am not trying to be annoyingly responsive, it is just a bad habit! What you said is fine, but I have to add that a calendar authority -- be it a person, a group, or just an algorithm -- is necessary in resolving conflicts in observation of the date and time. For example, if a contract between A and B requires A delivering a product to B at a certain date, then the two entities would need to choose an authority to resolve their confict in case of B's claim that A did not deliver on time. -- ODC On Tue, 18 May 2004 20:48:09 +0430, Hooman Mehr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On May 18, 2004, at 2:48 AM, C Bobroff wrote: On Mon, 17 May 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote: P.S.: Although Hijri calendar (and definition of the prayer times) look very strange and primitive, there is a very good philosophical reason behind it which makes sense once you know it. Do you know the reason or want to know it? Please continue. We are listening. You have a very nice narrative style! -Connie Hi Connie, Thank you for the nice complement. On a second thought, I got reluctant to discuss this matter on the list. It would be way off topic. Moreover, I am afraid that whatever I say could be interpreted as political statement or religious evangelism and start flamewars. Just to keep my word while trying to do minimal damage to the list, I'll write a paragraph: In original Islam, the definitions of calendar and prayer times are based on observation of simple natural phenomenon by ordinary human beings and assuring the individuals that their observation is valid and sufficient. The calendar authority is people, it comes from individual people with their personal observation, interpretation and judgment. Everybody can verify claims made by others. People usually voluntarily delegate this observation to a trustworthy group in a civil society. On the other hand, they may collaborate to ease the observation and get reassurance and support of others, while still keeping the final decision to themselves. This concept is closely related to some modern day concepts like human rights, diversity, democracy and freedom of information. To put it better in perspective, contrast this with the role of the religious calendars in ancient South American civilizations. Hooman Mehr ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
