RE: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Sun, 9 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > "There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However, > in certain cases such as in the month calendar headers it is acceptable > to use the first letter of weekdays. The direction is also from right to > left." Maybe you should also mention the style in Behdad's middle picture. The one with the days of the week on the side. Maybe some segment of the population is accustomed to seeing that style. You might mess up their life if you take away what they're comfortable with! (Of course, this is beyond the abbreviation question.) -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Sun, 9 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > I'm not sure how "month calendar" makes sense in English. > What about writing "in tabular representations"? I checked it up. "month calendar" is a term used for the calendars with a month view. I found this in use even more than "monthly calendar". About "tabular representations", it is better but in general terms. ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Sun, 9 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > > > [3.2.3] > > > There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. > > > However, it is common to use the first letter of weekdays in the > > > month calendars > > ^^ > > Common? > > How about, "acceptable" or something like that? > > Well, right. How about this phrase: > [3.2.3] > "There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However, > in certain cases such as in the month calendar headers it is acceptable > to use the first letter of weekdays. The direction is also from right to > left." I'm not sure how "month calendar" makes sense in English. What about writing "in tabular representations"? > It is now updated here: > http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft/#3.2.3 --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Days of the Week abbreviated
> > [3.2.3] > > There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. > > However, it is common to use the first letter of weekdays in the > > month calendars > ^^ > Common? > How about, "acceptable" or something like that? Well, right. How about this phrase: [3.2.3] "There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However, in certain cases such as in the month calendar headers it is acceptable to use the first letter of weekdays. The direction is also from right to left." It is now updated here: http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft/#3.2.3 ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
In a message dated Monday 03 May 2004 01:47, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: [...] > And the third one in the screenshot attached is the first layout, > but instead of single letter day of week names, I have used > something more intuitive, but apparently it's quite a failure and > should never be used. > > > Later, > --behdad > behdad.org The third layout is similar to what we have used for KDE as well. With the difference of the direction. I personally like the first layout more, but the third one is more intuitive as you say. Greetings, Arash -- The FarsiKDE Project www.farsikde.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Sun, 2 May 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: > On Sat, 2004-05-01 at 19:38, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > the *correct* way is to order from right to left. > > I confirm. The screenshot I sent was just for making people see > something. The preferred direction is right to left and then top to > bottom. Now that you mentioned that, I elaborate. I didn't want to raise it here ;). [The message has an attached image, if it does not get through, you can find it here: http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~behdad/cal.jpg (20kb)] The current layout we are used to is "top to bottom, then right to left". It means, rows are arranged top to bottom, then in each row, cells are arranged from right to left. This one turns out something like the first one in the attached image. But I remember seeing wall calendars with direction "right to left, then top to bottom". This is the second layout in the attached shot. And the third one in the screenshot attached is the first layout, but instead of single letter day of week names, I have used something more intuitive, but apparently it's quite a failure and should never be used. > roozbeh Later, --behdad behdad.org<>___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Sun, 2 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > [3.2.3] > There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However, it > is common to use the first letter of weekdays in the month calendars as ^^ Common? How about, "acceptable" or something like that? -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
<> After Behdad's justifications and concluding the survey about this discussion, I changed the section [3.2.3] of the draft as follows: [3.2.3] There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However, it is common to use the first letter of weekdays in the month calendars as shown below. ØØØ Ú Ù Ú Ø Ø Û Ø Û Û Û Û Û Û ÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛ Û Û ÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛÛÛÛÛ Changes are online: http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft/#3.2.3 Omid ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Sat, 2004-05-01 at 19:38, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > the *correct* way is to order from right to left. I confirm. The screenshot I sent was just for making people see something. The preferred direction is right to left and then top to bottom. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
FW: Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
<> After Behdad's justifications and concluding the survey about this discussion, I changed the section [3.2.3] of the draft as follows: [3.2.3] There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However, it is common to use the first letter of weekdays in the month calendars as shown below. ØØØ Ú Ù Ú Ø Ø Û Ø Û Û Û Û Û Û ÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛ Û Û ÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÛÛÛÛÛ Changes are online: http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft/#3.2.3 Omid ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Sat, 1 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > Hi, > Roozbeh gave a nice sample, but I've also seen month calendars showing > one-letter headings in a reverse direction (right-to-left). Compare with > this: http://www.geocities.com/omidkrad/Calendar/PersianDatePicker.gif > > Should we follow the numbers reading order or the letters reading order? > > Omid Thanks Omid for mentioning that. I was going to reply to Roozbeh that I guess all I remember, and the *correct* way is to order from right to left. So, your shot is completely correct IMO. behdad > > --- Roozbeh Pournader Wrote: > > > > Nice examples of abbreviations/shorthands/whatever: > > > ... > > * A month table from a "sar-resid-naame" (I don't know the English > > term) published in Iran in 1383/2004, showing the one-letter day > > headings (37 KiB): > > > > http://www.farsiweb.info/misc/calendar-abbr.png > > > > roozbeh > > ___ > PersianComputing mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing > > --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
Hi, Roozbeh gave a nice sample, but I've also seen month calendars showing one-letter headings in a reverse direction (right-to-left). Compare with this: http://www.geocities.com/omidkrad/Calendar/PersianDatePicker.gif Should we follow the numbers reading order or the letters reading order? Omid > --- Roozbeh Pournader Wrote: > > Nice examples of abbreviations/shorthands/whatever: > ... > * A month table from a "sar-resid-naame" (I don't know the English > term) published in Iran in 1383/2004, showing the one-letter day > headings (37 KiB): > > http://www.farsiweb.info/misc/calendar-abbr.png > > roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
The main problem with the fonts right now are: * The lack line height data. * The size does not match of the MS fonts. (so not to the Latin fonts). * A few of fonts have bitmaps added. Those bitmaps should be removed. * There's a known problem on LCDs, but that's another story perhaps. So, as you can see, the third item is trivial to fix, the fourth is not that important, and the first two are easy to fix. After that we can talk about mark positioning and other fancy characteristics. behdad PS, Behnam: So this was the list of bugs in the fonts you asked me to list. Waiting for the fix. On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, C Bobroff wrote: > On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: > > > Not much has happened with the fonts since last year (1382), and the > > latest version is 0.4. BTW, we need volunteers for tracking bugs in the > > fonts. > > Sorry to hear that. Can you release the latest if there have been any > improvements? Maybe I could post them on my website and say the "price" > is one bug report per download! > On the other hand, one does not like to distribute a lot of beta > fonts into the system which could result in chaos. That's why I usually > just send people to Borna still. > -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: > Not much has happened with the fonts since last year (1382), and the > latest version is 0.4. BTW, we need volunteers for tracking bugs in the > fonts. Sorry to hear that. Can you release the latest if there have been any improvements? Maybe I could post them on my website and say the "price" is one bug report per download! On the other hand, one does not like to distribute a lot of beta fonts into the system which could result in chaos. That's why I usually just send people to Borna still. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 09:06, C Bobroff wrote: > OK, but kindly don't involve Roozbeh in any flamefests until AFTER he's > done with the fonts. Not much has happened with the fonts since last year (1382), and the latest version is 0.4. BTW, we need volunteers for tracking bugs in the fonts. As for me, I've been busy with the Academy stuff, specifications for Persian locale information and collation, and committee work for the FarsiLinux Technical Committee. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Days of the Week abbreviated
So, please don't count mine as a vote. I'm not in Iran now. Actually of a "month calendar" I mean something like this: http://www.geocities.com/omidkrad/Calendar/PersianDatePicker.gif Omid > > > > On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > > > Oh! I am late to vote! > > No hurry, votes can be added any time. All I ask is that > voters actually be living in Iran. If anyone else still wants > to submit their vote, please do so. > > > It is very common to use the first letter of weekdays in month > > calendars. > Interesting that we have the full spectrum now from "never" > to "very common." > > -Connie > ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 08:10, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > First one is the concept of an abbreviation: I'm strongly with > the idea that a single letter is not called an abbreviation. I > doubt if anyone disagree on this. > > Ok, let's see what we have in English: > > Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, ... > Sun, Mon, Tue, ... > S, M, T, ... > > January, February, March, ... > Jan, Feb, Mar, ... > J, F, M, ... > > Let's call the first representation the "long form", the second > the "short form", and the third the "letter form". Now, again, I > doubt if anyone disagree here that the entries in the "short > form" are called abbreviations, neither the "long form", nor the > "letter form". > > And where are they used: > > * "long form", in long date representations. Using the usual > sample: "Tuesday, 21 September 1982". > > * "short form", in a compact representation and in width-limited > fields: "Tue, 21 Sep 1982". > > * "letter form", used ONLY in a two dimensional representation of > a calendar. Like this: > > September 1982 > S M T W T F S > 1 2 3 4 >5 6 7 8 9 10 11 > 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 > 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 > 26 27 28 29 30 > > Infact, when space allows, a two letter variant looks even > better: > > September 1982 > Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa > 1 2 3 4 >5 6 7 8 9 10 11 > 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 > 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 > 26 27 28 29 30 > > But you never see: "T, 21 S 1982", do you? (mister Jones :P). > So, the point is that, the "letter form" (or "biletter form") is > not an abbreviation, and is an straight *mechanical* derivation > of the other forms, to fulfill the space requirements. Again, > note that it's simply "S", not "S.", ie. no abbreviation. I copy everything to this point. I agree completely now. (I believed otherwise about two months ago or something like that, until Behdad convinced me.) > * "short form", we don't have short forms in Persian. There is > an strong reason for that: We don't have upper and lower case > letters. Why can we have these abbreviations in English? > Because "Sat" is completely different from "sat". But that's not > possible in Persian. In Persian the only way to make > abbreviations is to pick the first letters of a phrase, like > "h.sh." for "hejrie shamshi". I can't agree. There are other ways, like what Mosahab Persian Encyclopedia has done. I'll get one of FarsiWeb staff to scan a page. > * "letter form", is again used quite like the English case, ie. > in two dimensional printed calendars, but NOT anywhere else. Agreed. > So, next time, don't let Roozbeh fool you with sayin those guys > use it in Sharif University :P. Hmmm... They use it where you say they use it. On tables. > If you find anyone who claims > "letter form" is used in Persian for anything other than what I > described, ..., he's trying to confuse you for sure :P. I copy you. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Seems like I still should clarify some things for you :). You've indeed clarified the conflicting results of the vote. I shall update my info accordingly. > So, next time, don't let Roozbeh fool you with sayin those guys > use it in Sharif University :P. OK, but kindly don't involve Roozbeh in any flamefests until AFTER he's done with the fonts. Then you may have a go at him all you like :) > If you find anyone who claims > "letter form" is used in Persian for anything other than what I > described, ..., he's trying to confuse you for sure :P. > Ok, time to go, OK, some other time we can discuss use of ZWJ & tatweel & isolated letter plus period used for abbreviations/short forms in Persian dictionaries. (There's usually a chart in the front of the book.) Something to look forward to in the future. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
Hi Connie, Seems like I still should clarify some things for you :). First one is the concept of an abbreviation: I'm strongly with the idea that a single letter is not called an abbreviation. I doubt if anyone disagree on this. Ok, let's see what we have in English: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, ... Sun, Mon, Tue, ... S, M, T, ... January, February, March, ... Jan, Feb, Mar, ... J, F, M, ... Let's call the first representation the "long form", the second the "short form", and the third the "letter form". Now, again, I doubt if anyone disagree here that the entries in the "short form" are called abbreviations, neither the "long form", nor the "letter form". And where are they used: * "long form", in long date representations. Using the usual sample: "Tuesday, 21 September 1982". * "short form", in a compact representation and in width-limited fields: "Tue, 21 Sep 1982". * "letter form", used ONLY in a two dimensional representation of a calendar. Like this: September 1982 S M T W T F S 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Infact, when space allows, a two letter variant looks even better: September 1982 Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 But you never see: "T, 21 S 1982", do you? (mister Jones :P). So, the point is that, the "letter form" (or "biletter form") is not an abbreviation, and is an straight *mechanical* derivation of the other forms, to fulfill the space requirements. Again, note that it's simply "S", not "S.", ie. no abbreviation. Now, let's see what we have in Persian: * "long form", is used exactly as in the English one. * "short form", we don't have short forms in Persian. There is an strong reason for that: We don't have upper and lower case letters. Why can we have these abbreviations in English? Because "Sat" is completely different from "sat". But that's not possible in Persian. In Persian the only way to make abbreviations is to pick the first letters of a phrase, like "h.sh." for "hejrie shamshi". * "letter form", is again used quite like the English case, ie. in two dimensional printed calendars, but NOT anywhere else. So, next time, don't let Roozbeh fool you with sayin those guys use it in Sharif University :P. If you find anyone who claims "letter form" is used in Persian for anything other than what I described, ..., he's trying to confuse you for sure :P. Ok, time to go, --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > Oh! I am late to vote! No hurry, votes can be added any time. All I ask is that voters actually be living in Iran. If anyone else still wants to submit their vote, please do so. > It is very common to use the first letter of weekdays in month calendars. Interesting that we have the full spectrum now from "never" to "very common." -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
Oh! I am late to vote! In IranL10nInfo draft we have defined the first letter of the weekdays for their abbreviated names. You can see it in the first table of section [3.2]: http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft/#3.2-DateTimeNamingAndPatterns And the description is: [3.2.3] It is very common to use the first letter of weekdays in month calendars. However, it is so rare to see this short form in a representation of a date. We had also some recent posts about the day and month names you can read here and discuss if you wish: http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/forum/?messageid=10 Thanks Omid K. Rad _ <> http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft -- 'C Bobroff' Wrote: > Results of the Survey: > > Never: 3 votes > Rarely: 2 votes > Sometimes: 2 votes > > (Plus one more "never" vote from the person who vehemently objected to > my putting the abbreviations on my website and caused me to take this > poll!) > > I think we should conclude that abbreviations should be avoided. Yet > another reason why the Persian fonts need to be especially well-hinted > in the smaller sizes. > > Thank you for the input! > -Connie > ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, C Bobroff wrote: > Results of the Survey: > > Never: 3 votes > Rarely: 2 votes > Sometimes: 2 votes > > (Plus one more "never" vote from the person who vehemently objected to my > putting the abbreviations on my website and caused me to take this > poll!) > > I think we should conclude that abbreviations should be avoided. Good you finally got it... ;) > Yet another reason why the Persian fonts need to be especially well-hinted > in the smaller sizes. > > Thank you for the input! > -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > I think we should conclude that abbreviations should be avoided. > Good you finally got it... ;) Thank you for your vigilance ...and patience, Behdad. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
Results of the Survey: Never: 3 votes Rarely: 2 votes Sometimes: 2 votes (Plus one more "never" vote from the person who vehemently objected to my putting the abbreviations on my website and caused me to take this poll!) I think we should conclude that abbreviations should be avoided. Yet another reason why the Persian fonts need to be especially well-hinted in the smaller sizes. Thank you for the input! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
Why? I think when you have Fe-Re, Aliph-Re, and Mim-Re, representing Khordad as Khe-Re will make no misunderstanding. > On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 16:44, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> Also you can see that all >> Jalali month names may be distinguished by the first two letters. > > That may be a little weird for cases like Khordad... > > roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 16:44, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Also you can see that all > Jalali month names may be distinguished by the first two letters. That may be a little weird for cases like Khordad... roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
I think that's not so rare. I have seen some. Also you can see that all Jalali month names may be distinguished by the first two letters. --Saint Ali > Hello, > > I have a question for those of you actually living in Iran. > > Are the days of the week ever written in a short form with just one > letter? For example, > shanbeh written as shin > yek-shanbeh written as yeh > do-shanbeh written as dal > seh-shanbeh written as sin > etc > > Please email me your answer: yes, no, often, rarely, never... according > to what you've seen and I'll summarize. Again, those living > outside Iran, please don't participate because you may have been > influenced by another language. > > Thanks! > > -Connie > ___ > PersianComputing mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
