RE: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-05-10 Thread C Bobroff

On Sun, 9 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

 There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However,
 in certain cases such as in the month calendar headers it is acceptable
 to use the first letter of weekdays. The direction is also from right to
 left.

Maybe you should also mention the style in Behdad's middle picture. The
one with the days of the week on the side. Maybe some segment of the
population is accustomed to seeing that style. You might mess up their
life if you take away what they're comfortable with! (Of course,
this is beyond the abbreviation question.)  -Connie
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RE: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-05-09 Thread Omid K. Rad
  [3.2.3]
  There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. 
  However, it is common to use the first letter of weekdays in the 
  month calendars
  ^^
 Common?
 How about, acceptable or something like that?

Well, right. How about this phrase:
[3.2.3]
There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However,
in certain cases such as in the month calendar headers it is acceptable
to use the first letter of weekdays. The direction is also from right to
left.

It is now updated here:
http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft/#3.2.3

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RE: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-05-09 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Sun, 9 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

   [3.2.3]
   There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian.
   However, it is common to use the first letter of weekdays in the
   month calendars
   ^^
  Common?
  How about, acceptable or something like that?

 Well, right. How about this phrase:
 [3.2.3]
 There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However,
 in certain cases such as in the month calendar headers it is acceptable
 to use the first letter of weekdays. The direction is also from right to
 left.

I'm not sure how month calendar makes sense in English.  What
about writing in tabular representations?


 It is now updated here:
 http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft/#3.2.3

--behdad
  behdad.org
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RE: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-05-09 Thread Omid K. Rad
On Sun, 9 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

 I'm not sure how month calendar makes sense in English.
 What about writing in tabular representations?

I checked it up. month calendar is a term used for the calendars with
a month view. I found this in use even more than monthly calendar.
About tabular representations, it is better but in general terms.


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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-05-02 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Sat, 2004-05-01 at 19:38, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
 the *correct* way is to order from right to left.

I confirm. The screenshot I sent was just for making people see
something. The preferred direction is right to left and then top to
bottom.

roozbeh


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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-05-02 Thread Omid K. Rad
Iran Localization Info for Microsoft .NET

After Behdad's justifications and concluding the survey about this discussion, I 
changed the section [3.2.3] of the draft as follows:

[3.2.3]
There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However, it is common 
to use the first letter of weekdays in the month calendars as shown below.

 


  






Changes are online:
http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft/#3.2.3


Omid

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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-05-02 Thread C Bobroff

On Sun, 2 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

 [3.2.3]
 There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However, it
 is common to use the first letter of weekdays in the month calendars as
 ^^
Common?
How about, acceptable or something like that?

-Connie
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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-05-02 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Sun, 2 May 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

 On Sat, 2004-05-01 at 19:38, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
  the *correct* way is to order from right to left.

 I confirm. The screenshot I sent was just for making people see
 something. The preferred direction is right to left and then top to
 bottom.

Now that you mentioned that, I elaborate.  I didn't want to raise
it here ;).

[The message has an attached image, if it does not get through,
you can find it here: http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~behdad/cal.jpg
(20kb)]

The current layout we are used to is top to bottom, then right
to left.  It means, rows are arranged top to bottom, then in
each row, cells are arranged from right to left.  This one turns
out something like the first one in the attached image.

But I remember seeing wall calendars with direction right to
left, then top to bottom.  This is the second layout in the
attached shot.

And the third one in the screenshot attached is the first layout,
but instead of single letter day of week names, I have used
something more intuitive, but apparently it's quite a failure and
should never be used.

 roozbeh

Later,
--behdad
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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-05-01 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Sat, 1 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

 Hi,
 Roozbeh gave a nice sample, but I've also seen month calendars showing
 one-letter headings in a reverse direction (right-to-left). Compare with
 this: http://www.geocities.com/omidkrad/Calendar/PersianDatePicker.gif

 Should we follow the numbers reading order or the letters reading order?

 Omid

Thanks Omid for mentioning that.  I was going to reply to Roozbeh
that I guess all I remember, and the *correct* way is to order
from right to left.  So, your shot is completely correct IMO.

behdad


  --- Roozbeh Pournader Wrote:
 
  Nice examples of abbreviations/shorthands/whatever:
 
 ...
  * A month table from a sar-resid-naame (I don't know the English
  term) published in Iran in 1383/2004, showing the one-letter day
  headings (37 KiB):
 
  http://www.farsiweb.info/misc/calendar-abbr.png
 
  roozbeh

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--behdad
  behdad.org
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FW: Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-05-01 Thread Omid K. Rad
Iran Localization Info for Microsoft .NET

After Behdad's justifications and concluding the survey about this discussion, I 
changed the section [3.2.3] of the draft as follows:

[3.2.3]
There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However, it is common 
to use the first letter of weekdays in the month calendars as shown below.

 


  






Changes are online: http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft/#3.2.3


Omid

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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-04-29 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 09:06, C Bobroff wrote:
 OK, but kindly don't involve Roozbeh in any  flamefests until AFTER he's
 done with the fonts.

Not much has happened with the fonts since last year (1382), and the
latest version is 0.4. BTW, we need volunteers for tracking bugs in the
fonts.

As for me, I've been busy with the Academy stuff, specifications for
Persian locale information and collation, and committee work for the
FarsiLinux Technical Committee.

roozbeh


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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-04-27 Thread alahijani
I think that's not so rare. I have seen some. Also you can see that all
Jalali month names may be distinguished by the first two letters.

--Saint Ali

 Hello,

 I have a question for those of you actually living in Iran.

 Are the days of the week ever written in a short form with just one
 letter? For example,
 shanbeh written as shin
 yek-shanbeh written as yeh
 do-shanbeh written as dal
 seh-shanbeh written as sin
 etc

 Please email me your answer: yes, no, often, rarely, never... according
 to what you've seen and I'll summarize.  Again, those living
 outside Iran, please don't participate because you may have been
 influenced by another language.

 Thanks!

 -Connie
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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-04-27 Thread alahijani
Why? I think when you have Fe-Re, Aliph-Re, and Mim-Re, representing
Khordad as Khe-Re will make no misunderstanding.
 On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 16:44, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Also you can see that all
 Jalali month names may be distinguished by the first two letters.

 That may be a little weird for cases like Khordad...

 roozbeh



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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-04-27 Thread C Bobroff

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

  I think we should conclude that abbreviations should be avoided.

 Good you finally got it... ;)

Thank you for your vigilance ...and patience, Behdad.

-Connie
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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-04-27 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

 Results of the Survey:

 Never: 3 votes
 Rarely: 2 votes
 Sometimes: 2 votes

 (Plus one more never vote from the person who vehemently objected to my
 putting the abbreviations on my website and caused me to take this
 poll!)

 I think we should conclude that abbreviations should be avoided.

Good you finally got it... ;)

 Yet another reason why the Persian fonts need to be especially well-hinted
 in the smaller sizes.

 Thank you for the input!
 -Connie

--behdad
  behdad.org
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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-04-27 Thread C Bobroff

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

 Oh! I am late to vote!

No hurry, votes can be added any time. All I ask is that voters
actually be living in Iran. If anyone else still wants to submit their
vote, please do so.

 It is very common to use the first letter of weekdays in month calendars.
Interesting that we have the full spectrum now from never to
very common.

-Connie
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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-04-27 Thread Behdad Esfahbod
Hi Connie,

Seems like I still should clarify some things for you :).

First one is the concept of an abbreviation:  I'm strongly with
the idea that a single letter is not called an abbreviation.  I
doubt if anyone disagree on this.

Ok, let's see what we have in English:

Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, ...
Sun, Mon, Tue, ...
S, M, T, ...

January, February, March, ...
Jan, Feb, Mar, ...
J, F, M, ...

Let's call the first representation the long form, the second
the short form, and the third the letter form.  Now, again, I
doubt if anyone disagree here that the entries in the short
form are called abbreviations, neither the long form, nor the
letter form.

And where are they used:

* long form, in long date representations.  Using the usual
sample:  Tuesday, 21 September 1982.

* short form, in a compact representation and in width-limited
fields: Tue, 21 Sep 1982.

* letter form, used ONLY in a two dimensional representation of
a calendar.  Like this:

   September 1982
S  M  T  W  T  F  S
  1  2  3  4
 5  6  7  8  9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30

Infact, when space allows, a two letter variant looks even
better:

   September 1982
Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
  1  2  3  4
 5  6  7  8  9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30

But you never see: T, 21 S 1982, do you?  (mister Jones :P).
So, the point is that, the letter form (or biletter form) is
not an abbreviation, and is an straight *mechanical* derivation
of the other forms, to fulfill the space requirements.  Again,
note that it's simply S, not S., ie. no abbreviation.


Now, let's see what we have in Persian:

* long form, is used exactly as in the English one.

* short form, we don't have short forms in Persian.  There is
an strong reason for that:  We don't have upper and lower case
letters.  Why can we have these abbreviations in English?
Because Sat is completely different from sat.  But that's not
possible in Persian.  In Persian the only way to make
abbreviations is to pick the first letters of a phrase, like
h.sh. for hejrie shamshi.

* letter form, is again used quite like the English case, ie.
in two dimensional printed calendars, but NOT anywhere else.



So, next time, don't let Roozbeh fool you with sayin those guys
use it in Sharif University :P.  If you find anyone who claims
letter form is used in Persian for anything other than what I
described, ..., he's trying to confuse you for sure :P.


Ok, time to go,
--behdad
  behdad.org
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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-04-27 Thread C Bobroff
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

 Seems like I still should clarify some things for you :).
You've indeed clarified the conflicting results of the vote.  I shall
update my info accordingly.

 So, next time, don't let Roozbeh fool you with sayin those guys
 use it in Sharif University :P.
OK, but kindly don't involve Roozbeh in any  flamefests until AFTER he's
done with the fonts.  Then you may have a go at him all you like :)

 If you find anyone who claims
 letter form is used in Persian for anything other than what I
 described, ..., he's trying to confuse you for sure :P.

 Ok, time to go,

OK, some other time we can discuss use of ZWJ  tatweel  isolated letter
plus period used for abbreviations/short forms in Persian dictionaries.
(There's usually a chart in the front of the book.)
Something to look forward to in the future.

-Connie
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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

2004-04-27 Thread Roozbeh Pournader
On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 08:10, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
 First one is the concept of an abbreviation:  I'm strongly with
 the idea that a single letter is not called an abbreviation.  I
 doubt if anyone disagree on this.
 
 Ok, let's see what we have in English:
 
 Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, ...
 Sun, Mon, Tue, ...
 S, M, T, ...
 
 January, February, March, ...
 Jan, Feb, Mar, ...
 J, F, M, ...
 
 Let's call the first representation the long form, the second
 the short form, and the third the letter form.  Now, again, I
 doubt if anyone disagree here that the entries in the short
 form are called abbreviations, neither the long form, nor the
 letter form.
 
 And where are they used:
 
 * long form, in long date representations.  Using the usual
 sample:  Tuesday, 21 September 1982.
 
 * short form, in a compact representation and in width-limited
 fields: Tue, 21 Sep 1982.
 
 * letter form, used ONLY in a two dimensional representation of
 a calendar.  Like this:
 
  September 1982
   S  M  T  W  T  F  S
 1  2  3  4
5  6  7  8  9 10 11
   12 13 14 15 16 17 18
   19 20 21 22 23 24 25
   26 27 28 29 30
 
 Infact, when space allows, a two letter variant looks even
 better:
 
  September 1982
   Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
 1  2  3  4
5  6  7  8  9 10 11
   12 13 14 15 16 17 18
   19 20 21 22 23 24 25
   26 27 28 29 30
 
 But you never see: T, 21 S 1982, do you?  (mister Jones :P).
 So, the point is that, the letter form (or biletter form) is
 not an abbreviation, and is an straight *mechanical* derivation
 of the other forms, to fulfill the space requirements.  Again,
 note that it's simply S, not S., ie. no abbreviation.

I copy everything to this point. I agree completely now. (I believed
otherwise about two months ago or something like that, until Behdad
convinced me.)

 * short form, we don't have short forms in Persian.  There is
 an strong reason for that:  We don't have upper and lower case
 letters.  Why can we have these abbreviations in English?
 Because Sat is completely different from sat.  But that's not
 possible in Persian.  In Persian the only way to make
 abbreviations is to pick the first letters of a phrase, like
 h.sh. for hejrie shamshi.

I can't agree. There are other ways, like what Mosahab Persian
Encyclopedia has done. I'll get one of FarsiWeb staff to scan a page.

 * letter form, is again used quite like the English case, ie.
 in two dimensional printed calendars, but NOT anywhere else.

Agreed.

 So, next time, don't let Roozbeh fool you with sayin those guys
 use it in Sharif University :P.

Hmmm... They use it where you say they use it. On tables.

 If you find anyone who claims
 letter form is used in Persian for anything other than what I
 described, ..., he's trying to confuse you for sure :P.

I copy you.

roozbeh


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