Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed
Thanks for the responses. Let me comment on each here: It is a normal form of an equation in Iran. In Afghanistan, also a Persian speaking country, mathematical notations are expressed the same way as in English. Even in primary school? When kids learn to write 1+2+3 do they start straight away to write mathematics left to right in the middle of right to left text? Among the common differences you see in primary school mathematics are the long division notation. e.g. In English it's written as shown in http://www.mathsisfun.com/long_division2.html. In french it's: 14523 | 34 92 |-- 243 | 427 5 | Another example is the division sign. Sometimes you see: ½, or 1/2, or 1:2, or 1÷2, or 1 - 2 etc. These are differences between different variant of the Western notation, and they require different rendering rules for MathML. That's what we're trying to figure out as much as possible all the variants. I don't know how is arabic mathematics but the picture is a normal form of an equation in Persian I don't know the difference with Arabic either. But what I notice relative to English is that the limit sign is stretching. And I wonder if other common operators are the same. How about sine and cosine? Are they always written 'sin' and 'cos'. Are there local variations? (e.g. in French, 'tan' is written 'tg') I think the stretched word limit is just a stylish way of writing which compensates more space for the x -- pi/10. However, pi/10 is a fraction, if I am not wrong, and should be written like the other fraction 1/4. So the stretched 'limit' wouldn't always be stretched? Max. ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed
Hi, On سهشنبه, 2005-10-18 at 11:42 +0100, Max Froumentin wrote: Thanks for the responses. Let me comment on each here: It is a normal form of an equation in Iran. In Afghanistan, also a Persian speaking country, mathematical notations are expressed the same way as in English. Even in primary school? When kids learn to write 1+2+3 do they start straight away to write mathematics left to right in the middle of right to left text? That's right. Even in primary school. Among the common differences you see in primary school mathematics are the long division notation. e.g. In English it's written as shown in http://www.mathsisfun.com/long_division2.html. In french it's: 14523 | 34 92 |-- 243 | 427 5 | We do that this way: 14523 | 34 136 |- --| 427 92 | 68 | --| 243 | 238 | --| 5| Another example is the division sign. Sometimes you see: ½, or 1/2, or 1:2, or 1÷2, or 1 - 2 ÷ is used as division sign. etc. These are differences between different variant of the Western notation, and they require different rendering rules for MathML. That's what we're trying to figure out as much as possible all the variants. I don't know how is arabic mathematics but the picture is a normal form of an equation in Persian I don't know the difference with Arabic either. But what I notice relative to English is that the limit sign is stretching. And I wonder if other common operators are the same. How about sine and cosine? Are they always written 'sin' and 'cos'. Are there local variations? (e.g. in French, 'tan' is written 'tg') I've seen both tan and tg in mathematic books. But I don't know which one is official. I think the stretched word limit is just a stylish way of writing which compensates more space for the x -- pi/10. However, pi/10 is a fraction, if I am not wrong, and should be written like the other fraction 1/4. So the stretched 'limit' wouldn't always be stretched? Not always but usually. Not stretched one (حد) isn't usually long enough to write x -- pi/10 or other thing under it. Elnaz Max. ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed
On Tue, 2005-10-18 at 18:33 +0330, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: About tg vs tan: for a while, tg, cotg, and cosec were used. Then the academic community switched to tan, cot, and csc but the high school trigonometry textbooks remained with tg and family. After a while, the high school textbooks also switched. Now the common form used in all levels of education is tan and family. Ah, something else. When the tg and family were the default, all such trigonometric operators were typeset in italic type, not roman. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed
To answer the parts that other people didn't answer: On Tue, 18 Oct 2005, Max Froumentin wrote: Thanks for the responses. Let me comment on each here: It is a normal form of an equation in Iran. In Afghanistan, also a Persian speaking country, mathematical notations are expressed the same way as in English. Even in primary school? When kids learn to write 1+2+3 do they start straight away to write mathematics left to right in the middle of right to left text? Yes, that's what I remember. Another example is the division sign. Sometimes you see: ½, or 1/2, or 1:2, or 1÷2, or 1 - 2 The last two are used in elementary school, but then in higher levels they fall back to 1/2 and 1 - 2 I don't know the difference with Arabic either. But what I notice relative to English is that the limit sign is stretching. And I wonder if other common operators are the same. How about sine and cosine? Are they always written 'sin' and 'cos'. Are there local variations? (e.g. in French, 'tan' is written 'tg') I've only seen a Persian operator for 'lim', and again, that's only used in highschool textbooks, not academia. So the stretched 'limit' wouldn't always be stretched? I think a common practice is to use a fixedsize 'lim' which happens to be wider than the usual way the word is written. The word for 'lim' in Persian consists of only two letters, and that may not be wideenough to make it clear what's going on, so they typically use a stretched version. Max. --behdad http://behdad.org/ Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill -- Dan Bern, New American Language ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed
NO images attached. Could you please provide them for us.On 10/17/05, Behdad Esfahbod [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hi all,Max Froumentin from the W3 consortium is seeking feedback on Mathematics in Persian.His message to the list was bounced forsome reason, so I'm forwarding his message.Please keep him CCedwhen replying.Thanks,behdad= From: Max Froumentin [EMAIL PROTECTED]After asking Dan Brickley to forward my message, I was convinced tojoin the list in order to formulate my request more specifically. As I wrote before, the MathML group at W3C are looking at world-widemathematical notations, in order to find out if anything's missing inthe language.Right-to-Left writing is the first that came to ourminds so we spent some time already to look at Arabic, and we're going to investigate Hebrew and others.We found one example of persian mathematics that seemed to differ fromArabic.See attached image. I don't know any of either Arabic orPersian, but I'm told the equation differs from arabic in that the numbers are different. The limit operator is also special in that it appearsto be stretchable.The central question really is: does Persian mathematical notationhave any such particularities that would make its layout different from other right-to-left languages, like Arabic, and that would thenrequire special constructs in the MathML language?Thanks for any insight,Max.___ PersianComputing mailing listPersianComputing@lists.sharif.eduhttp://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing -- from debian manifesto:Debian Linux is a brand-new kind of Linux distribution. Rather than being developed by one isolated individual or group, as other distributions of Linux have been developed in the past, Debian is being developed openly in the spirit of Linux and GNU. ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed
[OK, here we go again. No attachment this time] After asking Dan Brickley to forward my message, I was convinced to join the list in order to formulate my request more specifically. As I wrote before, the MathML group at W3C are looking at world-wide mathematical notations, in order to find out if anything's missing in the language. Right-to-Left writing is the first that came to our minds so we spent some time already to look at Arabic, and we're going to investigate Hebrew and others. We found one example of persian mathematics that seemed to differ from Arabic. It's at http://people.w3.org/maxf/tmp/limf.png. I don't know any of either Arabic or Persian, but I'm told the equation differs from arabic in that the numbers are different. The limit operator is also special in that it appears to be stretchable. The central question really is: does Persian mathematical notation have any such particularities that would make its layout different from other languages, in particular right-to-left ones, and that would then require special constructs in the MathML language? Thanks for any insight, Max. ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed
I don't know how is arabic mathematics but the picture is a normal form of an equation in PersianOn 10/17/05, Max Froumentin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:[OK, here we go again. No attachment this time]After asking Dan Brickley to forward my message, I was convinced to join the list in order to formulate my request more specifically. As Iwrote before, the MathML group at W3C are looking at world-widemathematical notations, in order to find out if anything's missing inthe language. Right-to-Left writing is the first that came to our minds so we spent some time already to look at Arabic, and we're goingto investigate Hebrew and others.We found one example of persian mathematics that seemed to differ fromArabic. It's at http://people.w3.org/maxf/tmp/limf.png. I don't knowany of either Arabic or Persian, but I'm told the equation differsfrom arabic in that the numbers are different. The limit operator isalso special in that it appears to be stretchable. The central question really is: does Persian mathematical notationhave any such particularities that would make its layout differentfrom other languages, in particular right-to-left ones, and that would then require special constructs in the MathML language?Thanks for any insight,Max.___PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.eduhttp://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing-- from debian manifesto:Debian Linux is a brand-new kind of Linux distribution. Rather than being developed by one isolated individual or group, as other distributions of Linux have been developed in the past, Debian is being developed openly in the spirit of Linux and GNU. ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Arash Bijanzadeh wrote: I don't know how is arabic mathematics but the picture is a normal form of an equation in Persian True. Although the Persian notation for limit is not that common, many simply use the Latin lim notation. As for digits, we use Persian digits (U+06F0..U+06F9) in mathematics all the time. behdad On 10/17/05, Max Froumentin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [OK, here we go again. No attachment this time] After asking Dan Brickley to forward my message, I was convinced to join the list in order to formulate my request more specifically. As I wrote before, the MathML group at W3C are looking at world-wide mathematical notations, in order to find out if anything's missing in the language. Right-to-Left writing is the first that came to our minds so we spent some time already to look at Arabic, and we're going to investigate Hebrew and others. We found one example of persian mathematics that seemed to differ from Arabic. It's at http://people.w3.org/maxf/tmp/limf.png. I don't know any of either Arabic or Persian, but I'm told the equation differs from arabic in that the numbers are different. The limit operator is also special in that it appears to be stretchable. The central question really is: does Persian mathematical notation have any such particularities that would make its layout different from other languages, in particular right-to-left ones, and that would then require special constructs in the MathML language? Thanks for any insight, Max. ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing -- from debian manifesto: Debian Linux is a brand-new kind of Linux distribution. Rather than being developed by one isolated individua l or group, as other distributions of Linux have been developed in the past, Debian is being developed openly in the spirit of Linux and GNU. --behdad http://behdad.org/ Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill -- Dan Bern, New American Language ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
