Re: Alter table column constraint

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 12/17/18 12:01 PM, Rich Shepard wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018, Rich Shepard wrote:


I want to alter a term in a column's constraint to allow only specified
strings as attributes and have not found how to do this in the docs 
(using
version 10 docs now). There is an alter table command that allows 
renaming

a constraint but I've not seen how to modify the constraint itself.


  Is the procedure to drop the current check constraint then add the 
revised

one?


Or the other way around but yes.

JD




Rich



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Re: simple division

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 12/4/18 12:29 PM, Martin Mueller wrote:


I have asked this question before and apologize for not remembering 
it. How do you do simple division in postgres and get 10/4 with decimals?


This involves cast and numeric in odd ways that are not well explained 
in the documentation. For instance, you’d expect an example in the 
Mathematical Functions. But there isn’t.


The documentation of string functions is exemplary. The documentation 
of mathematical less so. Remember that it may be used by folks like me 
whose math is shaky. The MySQL documentation is better on this simple 
operation.



I may be misunderstanding the question but:


select cast(x/y as numeric(10,4));

JD




-

Martin Mueller
Professor emeritus of English and Classics

Northwestern University



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Re: Is pg_restore in 10.6 working?

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 11/12/18 10:37 AM, David wrote:


I can connect with psql either of these two ways:
psql -U postgres
or
psql -h ip-172-31-62-127.ec2.internal -p 5432 -U postgres -W postgres
(Yes, it's an AWS server)

This pg_dump command works:
pg_dump -U postgres -f predata.sql -F p -v  -d prod_data

But a matching pg_restore command does nothing.
pg_restore -U postgres -f predata.sql -v



pg_restore -U postgres -v predata.sql


-f is used to output data from a backup file into predata.sql.


Usage:
  pg_restore [OPTION]... [FILE]

General options:
  -d, --dbname=NAME    connect to database name
  -f, --file=FILENAME  output file name
  -F, --format=c|d|t   backup file format (should be automatic)
  -l, --list   print summarized TOC of the archive
  -v, --verbose    verbose mode
  -V, --version    output version information, then exit
  -?, --help   show this help, then exit




I'm running 10.6.

thank you




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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 09/17/2018 08:11 AM, Dmitri Maziuk wrote:

On Sun, 16 Sep 2018 12:52:34 +
Martin Mueller  wrote:


... The overreach is dubious on both practical and theoretical grounds. "Stick to 
your knitting " or the KISS principle seem good advice in this context.

Moderated mailing lists ain't been broken all these years, therefore they need 
fixing. Obviously.


Folks,

At this point it is important to accept that the CoC is happening. We 
aren't going to stop that. The goal now is to insure a CoC that is 
equitable for all community members and that has appropriate 
accountability. At hand it appears that major concern is the CoC trying 
to be authoritative outside of community channels. As well as wording 
that is a bit far reaching. Specifically I think people's main concern 
is these two sentences:


"To that end, we have established this Code of Conduct for community 
interaction and participation in the project’s work and the community at 
large. This Code is meant to cover all interaction between community 
members, whether or not it takes place within postgresql.org 
infrastructure, so long as there is not another Code of Conduct that 
takes precedence (such as a conference's Code of Conduct)."


If we can constructively provide feedback about those two sentences, 
great (or constructive feedback on other areas of the CoC). If we can't 
then this thread needs to stop. It has become unproductive.


My feedback is that those two sentences provide an overarching authority 
that .Org does not have the right to enforce and that it is also largely 
redundant because we allow that the idea that if another CoC exists, 
then ours doesn't apply. Well every single major collaboration channel 
we would be concerned with (including something like Blogger) has its 
own CoC within its Terms of use. That effectively neuters the PostgreSQL 
CoC within places like Slack, Facebook, Twitter etc...


JD

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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 09/14/2018 07:41 AM, James Keener wrote:

> Community is people who joined it

We're not a "community."


I do not think you are going to get very many people on board with that 
argument. As anyone who knows me will attest I am one of the most 
contrarian members of this community but I still agree that it is a 
community.


JD


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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 09/14/2018 07:51 AM, Dave Page wrote:
If that business is publicly bringing the project into disrepute, or 
harassing other community members and they approach us about it, then 
it becomes our business.






If it's unrelated to PostgreSQL, then it's your personal business
and not something the project would get involved in.


O.k. so this isn't clear (at least to me) within the CoC. I want
to make sure I understand. You are saying that if a community
member posts on Twitter that they believe gays are going to hell,
reporting that to the CoC committee would result in a
non-violation UNLESS they referenced postgresql within the post?


Yes, I believe so. Isn't that what "To that end, we have established 
this Code of Conduct for community interaction and participation in 
the project’s work and the community at large." basically says?


Honestly, no. At least not to me especially when you consider the 
sentence right after that, "This Code is meant to cover all interaction 
between community members, whether or not it takes place within 
postgresql.org infrastructure, so long as there is not another Code of 
Conduct that takes precedence (such as a conference's Code of Conduct)."


Based on your clarification, I am feeling better but the language 
doesn't read that way to me.


I wish this was easier but have we considered that all channels that we 
would be concerned with already have CoC's and therefore our CoC is 
fairly powerless? Sure they call them Terms of Use but that's what they 
are, Code of Conducts.


Thanks,

JD

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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 09/14/2018 07:36 AM, Dave Page wrote:



On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:21 PM, James Keener > wrote:



Now, you may say that (2) would be rejected by the
committee, but I would
counter that it's still a stain on me and something that
will forever appear
along side my name in search results and that the amount
of time and
stress it'd take me to defend myself would make my
voluntarily leaving
the community, which would be seen as an admission of
guilt, my only
option.


If you had read the policy, you would know that wouldn't
happen as reports and details of reports are to be kept
confidential.


That doesn't mean I won't be strung along and it doesn't mean that
the attacker can't release those details. Remember, I'm worried
about politically motivated attacks, and attacks meant to silence
opposing viewpoints, not legitimate instances of harassment.


Sure, but an attacker can do that now. Having the CoC doesn't change 
anything there, though it does give us a framework to deal with it.



People are shitheads. People are assholes. We're not
agreeing to join
some organization and sign an ethics clause when signing
up for the mailing
list.  The current moderators can already remove bad
actors from the list.
How they act outside of the list is non of this list's
concern.


The lists are just one of many different ways people in this
community interact.


So? We interact with people outside of specific groups all the
time. Baring specific
agreements to the contrary, why should any one group claim
responsibility of my
personal business?


If that business is publicly bringing the project into disrepute, or 
harassing other community members and they approach us about it, then 
it becomes our business.


If it's unrelated to PostgreSQL, then it's your personal business and 
not something the project would get involved in.


O.k. so this isn't clear (at least to me) within the CoC. I want to make 
sure I understand. You are saying that if a community member posts on 
Twitter that they believe gays are going to hell, reporting that to the 
CoC committee would result in a non-violation UNLESS they referenced 
postgresql within the post?


JD


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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 09/14/2018 07:14 AM, Dave Page wrote:



On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:08 PM, Joshua D. Drake <mailto:j...@commandprompt.com>> wrote:


On 09/14/2018 01:31 AM, Chris Travers wrote:


I apologize for the glacial slowness with which this has all
been moving.
The core team has now agreed to some revisions to the draft
CoC based on
the comments in this thread; see

https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct
<https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct>

(That's the updated text, but you can use the diff tool on
the page
history tab to see the changes from the previous draft.)


I really have to object to this addition:
"This Code is meant to cover all interaction between community
members, whether or not it takes place within postgresql.org
<http://postgresql.org> infrastructure, so long as there is not
another Code of Conduct that takes precedence (such as a
conference's Code of Conduct)."

That covers things like public twitter messages over live
political controversies which might not be personally directed.  
At least if one is going to go that route, one ought to *also*
include a safe harbor for non-personally-directed discussions of
philosophy, social issues, and politics. Otherwise, I think this
is asking for trouble.  See, for example, what happened with
Opalgate and how this could be seen to encourage use of this to
silence political controversies unrelated to PostgreSQL.


I think this is a complicated issue. On the one hand,
postgresql.org <http://postgresql.org> has no business telling
people how to act outside of postgresql.org
<http://postgresql.org>. Full stop.


I'm going to regret jumping in here, but...

I disagree. If a community member decides to join forums for other 
software and then strongly promotes PostgreSQL to the point that they 
become abusive or offensive to people making other software choices, 
then they are clearly bringing the project into disrepute and we 
should have every right to sanction them by preventing them 
participating in our project in whatever ways are deemed appropriate.


We all know that PostgreSQL is the only database we should use and 
anybody using a different one just hasn't been enlightened yet. :P


I think we need to define community member. I absolutely see your point 
of the individual is a contributor but community member is rather 
ethereal in this context don't you think?


JD

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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 09/14/2018 06:59 AM, Robert Eckhardt wrote:



I really have to object to this addition:
"This Code is meant to cover all interaction between community members,
whether or not it takes place within postgresql.org 
infrastructure, so long as there is not another Code of Conduct that takes
precedence (such as a conference's Code of Conduct)."


I second that objection. It is not in PGDG's remit to cure the world, for
whatever form of cure you ascribe to. This is especially true as 'community
member' has no strict definition.

I understand the concern, however, if you look at how attacks happen
it is frequently through other sites. Specifically under/poorly
moderated sites. For specific examples, people who have issues with
people on Quora will frequently go after them on Facebook and Twitter.


Yes but are we to be the School Principal for the world?


these aren't a solution looking for a problem. If we just want to look
at the clusterfuck that is happening in the reddis community right now
we can see conversations spilling onto twitter and into ad hominem
vitriol.


Sure and that is unfortunate but isn't it up to the individual to deal 
with it through appropriate channels for whatever platform they are on? 
All of these platforms are:


1. Voluntary to use
2. Have their own Terms of Use and complaint departments
3. If it is abuse there are laws

I agree that within Postgresql.org we must have a professional code of 
conduct but the idea that an arbitrary committee appointed by an 
unelected board can decide the fate of a community member based on 
actions outside of the community is a bit authoritarian don't you think?


JD

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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 09/14/2018 01:31 AM, Chris Travers wrote:


I apologize for the glacial slowness with which this has all been
moving.
The core team has now agreed to some revisions to the draft CoC
based on
the comments in this thread; see

https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct

(That's the updated text, but you can use the diff tool on the page
history tab to see the changes from the previous draft.)


I really have to object to this addition:
"This Code is meant to cover all interaction between community 
members, whether or not it takes place within postgresql.org 
 infrastructure, so long as there is not 
another Code of Conduct that takes precedence (such as a conference's 
Code of Conduct)."


That covers things like public twitter messages over live political 
controversies which might not be personally directed.   At least if 
one is going to go that route, one ought to *also* include a safe 
harbor for non-personally-directed discussions of philosophy, social 
issues, and politics.  Otherwise, I think this is asking for trouble.  
See, for example, what happened with Opalgate and how this could be 
seen to encourage use of this to silence political controversies 
unrelated to PostgreSQL.


I think this is a complicated issue. On the one hand, postgresql.org has 
no business telling people how to act outside of postgresql.org. Full stop.


On the other hand if you are (note: contributor, not community member 
which is different) contributor to PostgreSQL, your actions speak about 
PostgreSQL. So I am not sure what a good plan of action here would be.


One area where this is going to cause a lot of issues is within the 
social constructs of the micro-communities. Are we going to ban Chinese 
members because their government is anti Christian and anti Muslim? Are 
we going to ban members of countries that are not as progressive 
thinking about LGBT rights? Are we going to tell evangelical Christians 
or devout Muslims that they are unwelcome because they are against Gay 
marriage? Are we going to ban Atheists because they think Christians are 
fools?


I think the answer would be, "no" unless they post an opinion... Is that 
really what our community is becoming, thought police?


There was a time when Open Source was about code and community. It is 
clear that it is becoming about authority and politics.


I am the individual that initiated this whole process many moons ago 
with the intent that we have a simple, "be excellent to each other" code 
of conduct. What we have now (although much better than previous drafts) 
is still an over reach.


tl;dr; The willingness of people to think they are right is only 
exceeded by their willingness to oppress those they don't agree with.



JD
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Re: Slow shutdowns sometimes on RDS Postgres

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 09/13/2018 03:04 PM, Chris Williams wrote:

Hi,

I'm using AWS RDS Postgres (9.6.6) and have run into very slow 
shutdowns (10+ minutes) a few times when making database modifications 
(e.g. reboot, changing instance size, etc.).  Other times, it shuts 
down quickly (1 minute or so).  I have not been able to figure out why 
sometimes it takes a long time to shutdown.


This is probably something you would have to talk to Amazon about. AWS 
RDS Postgres is a fork of PostgreSQL and not 100% compatible from an 
administrative perspective.


JD





When it happens, I see a bunch of lines in the postgres log like the 
following over and over (almost every second or two) during this 10 
minute shutdown period:
2018-09-12 06:37:01 
UTC:XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX(19712):my_user@my_db:[16495]:FATAL:
2018-09-12 06:37:01 
UTC:localhost(31368):rdsadmin@rdsadmin:[16488]:FATAL: the database 
system is shutting down


Once I start seeing these messages, I start manually shutting down all 
of our applications that are connected to the db.  I'm not sure if 
shutting down the apps fixes it or if there's some timeout on the RDS 
side, but it seems like once I start doing this, the database finally 
shuts down.


When it takes this long to shut down, it ends up causing a lot more 
downtime than I would like.  I've tried asking AWS's support why it 
takes so long to shutdown sometimes, but they basically just told me 
that's "how it works" and that I should try to shut down all of my 
connections ahead of time before making database modifications.


We just have a few ruby on rails applications connected to the 
database, and don't really have any long running or heavy queries and 
the db is under very light load, so I don't understand why it takes so 
long to shutdown.  We do have a sizeable number of connections though 
(about 600) and there are two replicas connected to it.  I also tried 
setting idle_in_transaction_session_timeout to 300 seconds to see if 
that would help, but it made no difference.


I was wondering if anyone else had seen this behavior on their RDS 
Postgres instances or had any suggestions on how I could shorten the 
shutdown time?


Thanks,
Chris



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Re: Barman versus pgBackRest

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 09/04/2018 08:55 AM, Ron wrote:

On 09/04/2018 10:51 AM, David Steele wrote:
[snip]

This will work, but I don't think it's what Ron is getting at.

To be clear, it is not possible to restore a database into an *existing*
cluster using pgBackRest selective restore.  This is a limitation of
PostgreSQL file-level backups.

To do what Ron wants you would need to restore it to a new cluster, then
use pg_dump to logically dump and restore it to whatever cluster you
want it in.  This still saves time since there is less to restore but is
obviously not ideal.


That's exactly what I'm referring to.

Presumably I could restore it to a new cluster on the same VM via 
initdb on a different port and PGDATA directory?


Yes.

jD


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Re: increasing HA

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 09/04/2018 07:58 AM, Thomas Poty wrote:


- using an automatick failover
 I found PAF
 Could you advice any others solutions to explore or share your 
experience?


LinuxHA or Patroni are the most common we run into.

JD--

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PostgreSQL centered full stack support, consulting and development.
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Re: Barman versus pgBackRest

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 09/04/2018 07:52 AM, Ron wrote:

On 09/04/2018 09:24 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

On 09/04/2018 07:14 AM, Ron wrote:


That was about barman, in the barman group.  This is asking about 
pgbackrest...  :)


So: does pgbackrest have this ability which barman does not have? 
The "--db-include" option seems to indicate that you can restore a 
single db, but does indicate whether or not you can rename it.


https://pgbackrest.org/configuration.html#section-restore/option-db-include 





Which implies that you can't do it?


You can restore a single database and then issue a simple ALTER DATABASE 
command to change the DB name.




(Postgres backup/restore capabilities are quite limited, which is 
disapointing.)


Not sure I agree with that. If you want to restore and then rename a DB, 
rename it.


ALTER DATABASE foo RENAME TO bar;

JD



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Re: Barman versus pgBackRest

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 09/04/2018 07:14 AM, Ron wrote:


That was about barman, in the barman group.  This is asking about 
pgbackrest...  :)


So: does pgbackrest have this ability which barman does not have? The 
"--db-include" option seems to indicate that you can restore a single 
db, but does indicate whether or not you can rename it.


https://pgbackrest.org/configuration.html#section-restore/option-db-include

JD


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Re: Can Pg somehow recognize/honor linux groups to control user access ?

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 08/22/2018 08:56 AM, David Gauthier wrote:

Hi:

The title says it all.  I need to be control who can gain access to a 
DB based on a linux user group.  I can set up a generic role and 
password, but also want to prevent users who are not in a specific 
linux group from accessing the DB.  For code that works with the DB, 
this is easy (just chmod the group on the code file(s)).  But is there 
a way to add an additional gauntlet that checks membership in the 
linux group if, for example, they were trying to get in using psql at 
the linux prompt ?


There are a couple hundred in the linux group and the list of names 
changes constantly. I suppose creating a DB role per user in the linux 
group may be possible if something like a cron was maintaining this 
(creating/dropping uid based roles as the group membership changes) 
then give everyone the same password.  But does that prevent someone 
outside the linux group from just logging in with someone else's uid 
and the generic password?
I'm hoping that this is a common need and that someone has a good 
solution.


Thanks in Advance for any help!


You could probably write a pam module to do it but it seems to be your 
are inverting the problem and should be looking at this from a Postgres 
not Linux perspective. Perhaps consider using an SSO solution for both 
Linux and Postgres.


JD

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Re: vPgSql

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 08/17/2018 05:45 AM, Dmitry Igrishin wrote:

Hey Vlad
пт, 17 авг. 2018 г. в 15:31, Vlad Alexeenkov :

Maybe will be useful for someone

Very simple Postgres SQL client vPgSql:

https://vsdev.ru

Looking nice! Thank you. But I unable to start it on Ubuntu, because
there is no bash(1) in /usr/bin.


Bash is in /bin not /usr/bin. You should be able to edit the first line 
of the start file to fix that.


JD



Also, it is open source?



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Re: Difference between "autovacuum_naptime" and "autovacuum_vacuum_cost_delay"?

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 08/16/2018 06:10 PM, Raghavendra Rao J S V wrote:

Hi All,

I have gone through several documents but I am still have confusion 
related to "autovacuum_naptime" and "autovacuum_vacuum_cost_delay". 
Could you clarify me with an example.


When Auto vacuum worker process will start?



Autovacuum checks for relations that need to be vacuumed/analyzed every 
"naptime"



When Auto vacuum worker process will stop?


When it is done with the list of relations that needed work that were 
found at the launch of "naptime"




Does Auto vacuum worker process will sleep like Auto vacuum launcher 
process ?


The launcher process sleeps for naptime, then wakes up to check what 
needs to be worked on




What is the difference between Auto vacuum launcher process and Auto 
vacuum worker process?


The launcher is the process that spawns the worker processes (I think).

JD




--
Regards,
Raghavendra Rao J S V



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Re: moving data to from ms sql server via SSIS

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 08/15/2018 11:03 AM, cosmin ioan wrote:

hi folks,
we're trying to phase out MS SQL Server and we're trying to understand 
the easiest way to move data from MS SQL Server to postgres, via SSIS, 
say via ODBC, OleDB or .Net drivers, and basically create new tables & 
move data, into the target postgres db.  What drivers would be the 
best/most flexible?


thanks much for any info or white papers on the topic,


A *lot* of this is: it depends

However, a pretty simple way is to use either FDWs from PostgreSQL or 
linked tables in MSSQL. It would be easy enough for example to have 
table ms.foo which has data and then table postgres.foo that is empty. 
If ms.foo is linked (or and FDW table) you can use standard SQL to do 
things like INSERT INTO (SELECT * FROM).


Of course if you can take the outage and you prep PostgreSQL 
appropriately you could also just dump out to csv or tab delimited files 
and load them with COPY.


JD


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Re: using graph model with PostgreSQL

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 08/15/2018 07:09 AM, 김세훈 wrote:

Hi there,

currently I'm using PostgreSQL with PostGIS extension to handle 
geospatial data.


In my project I need to apply some graph algorithms like MST for some 
network of GPS coordinates.


I know there is some way of using Neo4j with PostgreSQL but is there 
any other way to construct


graph model within PostgreSQL environment?


Check out AgensGraph from Bitnine. It's open source.



Any external modules would be welcomed.


Thanks.




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Re: pg_basebackup failed to read a file

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 08/14/2018 09:14 AM, Tom Lane wrote:

Mike Cardwell  writes:

It'd be nice to have a more coherent theory about what needs to be copied
or not, and not fail on files that could simply be ignored.  Up to now
we've resisted having any centrally defined knowledge of what can be
inside a PG data directory, but maybe that bullet needs to be bitten.


This is not the first time, nor the second time this issue has arisen. I 
would think we would know that a coherent theory or at least 
semi-coherent theory would be pretty easy to resolve. Granted, we can't 
reasonably know what is going on under base but under the / of PGDATA, 
we know *exactly* what files should and should not be in there.


JD

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Re: Call for Papers - PGConf.ASIA 2018

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 07/29/2018 05:59 PM, Tatsuo Ishii wrote:

Hi PostgreSQL lovers,

The call for papers for PGConf.ASIA 2018 will be closed on 31st July,
2018 (Japan time), that is 15:00 31st July 2018 UTC.

I am looking forward to receiving your great proposals and seeing you
in Akihabara (yes, like last year, the conference venue is in the
"Electric City" Akihabara).
--
Tatsuo Ishii
SRA OSS, Inc. Japan
English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php
Japanese:http://www.sraoss.co.jp
  

Hi,

PGconf.ASIA 2018 will be held on December 10 to 12 in Tokyo and we are
now accepting proposals for talks.

Join us and other users and developers from around the world at the
home of the oldest and largest user group; Japan!

(See http://www.pgconf.asia/EN/2017/program/ for last year's
conference program).

- About the conference:
Location: Akihabara convention hall (Tokyo) 
http://www.akibahall.jp/data/outline_eng.html
Targeted number of attendees: 700 in total
http://www.pgconf.asia/EN/2018/

- About the call for papers:

- To submit a paper, please include the following details and send to:
pgconf-asia-2018-submission(at)pgconf(dot)asia

Title
Abstract
Description
Language spoken during the talk: Japanese or English
Language of the talk material: Japanese and/or English

- Submission deadline is midnight, 31st July, 2018 (Japan time).

- Submissions should be sent in English, Japanese, or both.
Japanese-only submissions will be translated into English for
discussion within the program committee.

- Presentation materials will be released the day after the conference
and will be made available to the public. The copyright of the
material will be retained by the author.

We ask that you share your materials under a Creative Commons
license: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/

If your presentation material cannot be shared, please let us know.

- Talks may be recorded or photographed. In both cases, the content
may be made public under a Creative Commons license:
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/. The copyright
of the material is retained by the speaker.

- Speakers will be informed of the result of the selection by the end
of August. Speakers will be requested to submit brief biographies and
photos to be published in the conference program.

- The exact length of each session is not decided yet (Last year it
   was 40 minutes and we expect no big change for this year).


+1

JD

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Re: How can i install contrib modules in pg11 via source

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 07/24/2018 12:08 PM, Adrian Klaver wrote:

On 07/24/2018 12:00 PM, Márcio Antônio Sepp wrote:

Hi all,

How can i install contrib modules in pg11. I’m using FreeBSD 11.2.

In specific i need to install hstore for test purpose.


To confirm you are building from source correct?

If so I can tell you how I do it in Linux and you can make the 
appropriate translations to BSD.




0) ./configure;



1) cd to contrib/hstore/

2) make

3) sudo make install

4) In psql CREATE EXTENSION hstore;



Thanks in advance.

--

Att

Márcio A. Sepp






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Re: User documentation vs Official Docs

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 07/20/2018 05:31 PM, Adrian Klaver wrote:

On 07/20/2018 04:48 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

On 07/20/2018 03:59 PM, Alvaro Herrera wrote:


I don't see why we need this thread to continue.  This sounds like
somebody looking for a solution when they don't yet know what the
problem is.


Unfortunately, you don't understand the problem which is why this 
thread is happening on -general and not -hackers. The problem is 
simple as illustrated, our user documentation is less than stellar 
for those trying to solve specific problems. This isn't a new problem 
nor is it one that is not communicated. I hear the issue from users 
ever single time I speak or attend a conference/meetup.


JD sit down, I am going to agree with you:)


Hey it happens once every 18 months or so ;)

JD


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Re: User documentation vs Official Docs

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 07/20/2018 04:56 PM, Stephen Frost wrote:


+1.  I'd personally like to see improvements to the tutorials, and
patches could certainly be submitted or specific ideas discussed over on
-docs.

A few ideas around that would be:

- Setting up async replication
- Setting up sync replication, with quorum-based sync
- Cascading replication
- Parallel pg_dump-based backup/restore (with pg_dumpall for globals)
- Using various important extensions (pg_stat_statements,
   pg_buffercache, pageinspect, pg_freespacemap, pg_visibility)
- Using pg_basebackup to build replicas
- Using pg_receivewal to have a WAL archive


I think this is a pretty good list. I would add:

Practical Role management

JD

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Re: User documentation vs Official Docs

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 07/20/2018 03:59 PM, Alvaro Herrera wrote:


I don't see why we need this thread to continue.  This sounds like
somebody looking for a solution when they don't yet know what the
problem is.


Unfortunately, you don't understand the problem which is why this thread 
is happening on -general and not -hackers. The problem is simple as 
illustrated, our user documentation is less than stellar for those 
trying to solve specific problems. This isn't a new problem nor is it 
one that is not communicated. I hear the issue from users ever single 
time I speak or attend a conference/meetup.


I was hoping to get the -general community to step and build some 
recipes and howto articles without at the same time dictating the 
solution. That's a good thing because a non-dictated solution is likely 
to have more strength.


The wiki is a terrible choice but if that is where the community thinks 
it should go, I welcome people starting to contribute in a structured 
fashion to the wiki. I hope it works out well.


JD

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Re: User documentation vs Official Docs

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 07/20/2018 10:38 AM, George Neuner wrote:



As libraries allow users/citizens to request books be purchased at no
cost to the user/citizen, the argument that someone cannot afford a book
is now a moot point.


This thread is getting off topic. The tl;dr; of this particular 
subthread is that we are not here just for the relatively rich Western 
World, students or not (although I certainly appreciate that pain). We 
are an International community with varying levels of financial 
capabilities. If we want to enable the *entire* community to succeed 
with PostgreSQL we have to have resources that are Free (as in Beer and 
Software).


Back to the original idea, it would be great if those participating 
would be willing to help even a little in determining an actual 
direction to take this.



Thanks,


JD



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Re: User documentation vs Official Docs

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 07/16/2018 05:08 PM, Alvaro Herrera wrote:


Sounds like wiki pages could solve need this pretty conveniently.  If
and when the content is mature enough and migrates to the tutorial main
documentation pages, the wiki pages can be replaced with redirects to
those.


Anyone who writes a lot is going to rebel against using a wiki. They are 
one of the worst to write in from a productivity perspective. I would 
rather write in Docbook, at least then I can template everything and we 
could have a standard xsl sheet etc...


JD





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Re: User documentation vs Official Docs

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 07/16/2018 04:56 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:


3) Some combination of the editorial board/peer reviewers/other 
volunteers would periodically go over existing documentation to 
remove/update stale content.


I did it! 


s/did/dig


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Re: User documentation vs Official Docs

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 07/16/2018 04:33 PM, Adrian Klaver wrote:


First, my assumption is that this project would be done within the 
.Org infrastructure and if the community thinks that we should just 
use DocBook that is certainly an option (although adhering to 
something like Docbook Simple may be best).


All the above is cool and everything, but is putting the cart before 
the horse. To me to make this work the following needs to happen:


1) Create an editorial board. This group of people would determine the 
answers to the questions above. They would also develop the framework 
for what needs covered. This would be based on what users want to see. 
Then a call for contributors could be made.


2) The other thing the editorial board would do is create list of 
qualified peer reviewers. These folks would then review the 
contributions and give feedback. On successfully passing a review a 
contribution would go into the documentation.


3) Some combination of the editorial board/peer reviewers/other 
volunteers would periodically go over existing documentation to 
remove/update stale content.


I did it! Want to help? I think if we got together 5-7 people and came 
up with a proposal we could submit to -www/-core and get some buy in.


JD

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Re: User documentation vs Official Docs

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 07/16/2018 03:37 PM, David G. Johnston wrote:
On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 3:19 PM, Joshua D. Drake <mailto:j...@commandprompt.com>>wrote:


On 07/16/2018 03:14 PM, David G. Johnston wrote:


What does the community think about a community run,
community organized, sub project for USER documentation? This
type of documentation would be things like, "10 steps to
configure replication", "Dumb simple Postgres backups",  "5
things to NEVER do with Postgres". I imagine we would sort it
by version (9.6/10.0 etc...) as well as break it down via
type (Administration, Tuning, Gotchas) etc...

What do we think?


​Politely tell them to buy some of the many well written books
that are available on these very topics...


Politely tell them to buy a license to MSSQl...

Kind of misses the whole point doesn't it?


​I'm going for practicality over idealism here.  That some of the best 
written material for learning how to be an application developer or 
DBA is presently really only available in the forms of books is a fact 
of our existence.  I frankly don't have a problem that there isn't a 
"free beer" resource available to complete with it.


Fair enough but what about those that cant afford it? I think us in the 
Western World tend to forget that by far the majority of users cant 
afford a latte from Starbucks let alone a 60.00 USD dead tree.




I'm all for continual improvement but color me doubtful that there is 
enough desire and discipline here to invent and then maintain a 
high-maintenance system.  So, yes, I am intentionally trying to avoid 
the trap that is problem that you want to solve by suggesting 
forgetting the revolution and instead coming at the problem from an 
entirely different angle and working to evolve the equilibrium that 
presently exists.


Hey, don't get me wrong. I get your point but I also know what I hear 
and I hear from *lots* of users because of PostgresConf and all the 
meetups. I am just trying to resolve a problem that exists for that 
community. Think of this (if we can figure out how to pull this off): 
User on StackOverflow says, "How do I do X", someone answers with a 
direct link to a recipe on PostgreSQL.Org that tells them exactly how to 
do X (with caveats of course). There isn't much more user friendly than 
that.


I am also not suggesting this wouldn't be work but it is also work a lot 
more people can do than people that can submit a patch to -hackers 
(exponentially so).


IMO,

JD

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Re: User documentation vs Official Docs

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 07/16/2018 03:14 PM, David G. Johnston wrote:


What does the community think about a community run, community
organized, sub project for USER documentation? This type of
documentation would be things like, "10 steps to configure
replication", "Dumb simple Postgres backups",  "5 things to NEVER
do with Postgres". I imagine we would sort it by version (9.6/10.0
etc...) as well as break it down via type (Administration, Tuning,
Gotchas) etc...

What do we think?


​Politely tell them to buy some of the many well written books that 
are available on these very topics...


Politely tell them to buy a license to MSSQl...

Kind of misses the whole point doesn't it?

JD




David J.



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Re: User documentation vs Official Docs

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 07/16/2018 03:07 PM, Tim Cross wrote:


I think encouraging user developed docs is a great idea.

However, I'm not sure how your proposal really addresses the issue. How
would your proposal deal with the "but let's be honest, writing a
blog/article/howto in a wiki is a pain in the butt" issue? Writing
decent documentation or clear examples is hard and the only thing worse
than no documentation is misleading or confusing documentation.


Well I threw all this out there to start a discussion on how best this 
could be done. What *I* would do is either create a series of templates 
to be followed that we would push to HTML and PDF. That could be done 
with a form and TinyMCE or we could use LibreOffice/Office templates. 
However, I don't know that the community would buy into the office 
template idea (thus seeking feedback).

My only real concern would be to further fracture the PG user base. If
there are barriers preventing users from adding documentation to the
existing documents or wiki, perhaps it would be better to try and
address those first?


First, my assumption is that this project would be done within the .Org 
infrastructure and if the community thinks that we should just use 
DocBook that is certainly an option (although adhering to something like 
Docbook Simple may be best).


Thanks,

JD



Tim



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Re: User documentation vs Official Docs

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 07/16/2018 02:54 PM, Vick Khera wrote:


On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 5:44 PM, Joshua D. Drake <mailto:j...@commandprompt.com>> wrote:


On 07/16/2018 02:22 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

On 07/16/2018 01:59 PM, Stephen Frost wrote:


We have a place for this to go, in the official docs,
already split out
by version, and it starts here:

https://www.postgresql.org/docs/10/static/tutorial-start.html
<https://www.postgresql.org/docs/10/static/tutorial-start.html>


As for some "strong SEO" I think already the top hit for almost 
everything I seek postgres related is the official manual, so it seems 
to have good SEO. The only big improvement would be somehow to tell 
google to only show me the newest version of the manual, not all of 
the older ones too, for the same page.




You aren't wrong on how its ranked but here is an example of what I am 
talking about with SEO:


Search:
postgresql backups

For me, the first three are the docs which are not very useful if you 
just want backups that just work (unless you are someone like you and I 
who are using the docs for reference not howto). The fourth link is this 
one:


https://www.compose.com/articles/postgresql-backups-and-everything-you-need-to-know/

Which is a great article but also isn't what I am thinking about. What I 
am thinking about is articles like this:


https://www.commandprompt.com/blog/a_better_backup_with_postgresql_using_pg_dump/

Which in this case is clearly out of date but provides context of what I 
am trying to achieve.


JD


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Re: User documentation vs Official Docs

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 07/16/2018 02:22 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

On 07/16/2018 01:59 PM, Stephen Frost wrote:


We have a place for this to go, in the official docs, already split out
by version, and it starts here:

https://www.postgresql.org/docs/10/static/tutorial-start.html

Adding more to that certainly sounds good to me.


I didn't know that existed. I will take a look.


Well now that I see it is just the "tutorial" in the official docs, I 
disagree that is the correct place to start. At least not if it is going 
to ship with the 1000+ pages of documentation we already have. What I am 
envisioning is something with a strong SEO that gives pointed and direct 
information about solving a specific problem. A tutorial book could 
certainly do that as could (what I am really talking about) is Postgres 
recipes or something like that.


JD


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Re: User documentation vs Official Docs

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 07/16/2018 01:59 PM, Stephen Frost wrote:


We have a place for this to go, in the official docs, already split out
by version, and it starts here:

https://www.postgresql.org/docs/10/static/tutorial-start.html

Adding more to that certainly sounds good to me.


I didn't know that existed. I will take a look.

JD


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Re: User documentation vs Official Docs

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 07/16/2018 01:39 PM, Adrian Klaver wrote:


Not sure this is much different from the Wiki unless:


The wiki is certainly "a place" that can be used for this but the wiki 
takes a lot of effort to find things on it, manage it etc...



Who is going to?:

1) Run/maintain it.



Well this is a community. The hope would be that the community would 
step up. As a proposer (and writer) I am certainly willing to participate.




2) Get people to contribute.


I don't think this is nearly as difficult except if we create artificial 
barriers to contribution (writing in the wiki is a highly subpar 
experience).




3) Edit new content, clean up old content



So some of this could be original content, some of it could just be 
links to various blogs/articles that already exist and some could be 
maintenance. However, I see maintenance as a secondary issue because we 
would publish based on version. If someone wrote an article for 9.6 it 
may or may not apply for 11 but that doesn't matter. People are always 
generating new content.


JD









Thanks!

JD







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User documentation vs Official Docs

[Joshua D. Drake]

-general.

Over the last year as I have visited many meetups and interacted with 
people at conferences etc... There are three prevailing issues that 
continue to come up in contributing to the community. This email is 
about one of them. Where is the "user" documentation? The official 
documentation is awesome, if you know what you are doing. It is not 
particularly useful for HOWTO style docs. There is some user 
documentation in the wiki but let's be honest, writing a 
blog/article/howto in a wiki is a pain in the butt.


What does the community think about a community run, community 
organized, sub project for USER documentation? This type of 
documentation would be things like, "10 steps to configure replication", 
"Dumb simple Postgres backups",  "5 things to NEVER do with Postgres". I 
imagine we would sort it by version (9.6/10.0 etc...) as well as break 
it down via type (Administration, Tuning, Gotchas) etc...


What do we think?

Thanks!

JD


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Re: Service pgpool

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 06/07/2018 11:16 AM, Jean Claude wrote:

Hi all,

below my problem about daemon :

Jun 07 14:06:45 vm02 systemd[1]: Failed to start SYSV: Starts and stops 
the pgpool daemon.
Jun 07 14:06:45 vm02 systemd[1]: Unit pgpool-II-10.service entered 
failed state.

Jun 07 14:06:45 vm02 systemd[1]: pgpool-II-10.service failed.

Can you help me?


You probably want to ask on the pgpool list:

https://pgpool.net/mediawiki/index.php/Mailing_lists




Thanks a lot



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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 06/06/2018 11:22 AM, Tom Lane wrote:

I wrote:

Yeah, somebody else made a similar point upthread.  I guess we felt that
the proper procedure was obvious given the structure, but maybe not.
I could support adding text to clarify this, perhaps along the line of


Hmm ... actually, there's another special case that's not discussed,
which is what happens if a committee or core member wants to file a
complaint against someone else?  They certainly shouldn't get to rule
on their own complaint.  So maybe change "complaint against" to
"complaint by or against" in my proposed addition, and then we're good.


Well that is a standard conflict of interest issue. Having simple 
language that says something such as:


A Member involved in complaints may not vote/rule on issues reported by 
the respective member.


JD



regards, tom lane




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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 06/05/2018 08:55 PM, Tom Lane wrote:

Adrian Klaver  writes:

On 06/05/2018 04:41 PM, Tom Lane wrote:

I'm getting a little tired of people raising hypothetical harms and
ignoring the real harms that we're hoping to fix.  Yes, this is an
experiment and it may not work, but we can't find out without trying.
If it turns out to be a net loss, we'll modify it or abandon it.



Good to hear this is considered an experiment.



To that end will there be quarterly/yearly reports, suitably anonymized,
that spell out the activity that took place with reference to the CoC?


That seems like a good idea from here.  I don't know exactly how much
can be reported without risking privacy issues, but surely we could at
least provide the number of incidents and how they were resolved.


Yeah I like it too. We don't have to give out any confidential 
information but it adds to the transparency and allows the community as 
a whole to see that.


regards, tom lane




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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 06/05/2018 04:41 PM, Tom Lane wrote:

Benjamin Scherrey  writes:

On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 2:12 AM, Christophe Pettus  wrote:

Not at all.  The need for a CoC is not theoretical.  Real people,
recently, have left the community due to harassment, and there was no
system within the community to report and deal with that harassment.



I keep hearing this claim. I've followed up and tried to verify them. Sorry
but "trust me" doesn't cut it here any more than "trust me this will make
Postgres go faster" would on a code change. What's the context for this?


You want us to name names?  I've tried to leave specific peoples' names
out of this; I don't think it would be helpful to them to dredge up old
wounds.  And I'm quite sure they wouldn't care to be contacted by
somebody trying to "verify" things.


+1, this is ridiculous.

JD

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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 06/05/2018 12:12 PM, Christophe Pettus wrote:



On Jun 5, 2018, at 12:06, Benjamin Scherrey  wrote:
Doesn't that 20 years of results pretty clearly demonstrate that this community 
does not gain an advantage for adopting a CoC?


Not at all.  The need for a CoC is not theoretical.  Real people, recently, 
have left the community due to harassment, and there was no system within the 
community to report and deal with that harassment.

What we do have is 20 years of people demonstrating reasonable good judgment, 
which we can conclude will apply to a CoC committee as well.


+1

jD


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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 06/05/2018 10:44 AM, James Keener wrote:


Your example is flawed because:

Multi-Partner has nothing to do with sexuality unless you want to
make the argument that your belief is that a relationship should be
between one person and another and in this argument a man and a
woman which has literally nothing to do with the word multi or
partner in a technical context.


Gay couples often call their significant other their partner.


Yes but the argument against the use of the word partner isn't 
technically relevant to the feature.



So, you're saying we don't need a CoC because in 20 years you've never 
had an issue? That doesn't seem like a good response.


No my response is that 20 years of community experience is that we as a 
community on public lists would not allow it to get that far because the 
original proposal or complaint wouldn't be technically relevant.


The CoC is going to be most relevant for:

1. Showing a clear understanding that not all people have a voice they 
are comfortable using


2. Showing a clear understanding that all people are equal in the policy 
of this community


3. That those who are subject to #1, they have a team to back them up or 
correct them should a problem arise.


Does the CoC help or harm me? No. You? Probably not.

I will reference what Jonathan Katz mentioned yesterday:

"I know it does make a difference to have a code of conduct in terms of
helping people to feel more welcome and knowing that there is an
avenue for them to voice feedback in the case of an unfortunate incident."

This is what the CoC is about, nothing more and nothing less. That is 
what we should be focusing on. To throw my own slogan on this bird:


People, Postgres, Data

JD
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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 06/05/2018 10:26 AM, Chris Travers wrote:


Let's role play. I'll be a homophobic person.

You've just submitted a proposal suggesting that we change
master-master replication to be multi-partner replication. I've told
you I don't like the wording because of it's implication of
supporting homosexual marriage, which I believe to be a personal
offense to me, my marriage, and my "deeply held religious beliefs".
You tell me that's not your intent and that you do not plan to
change your proposed wording. You continue to use the term in all
correspondences on the list and I continually tell you that
supporting gay marriage is offensive and that you need to not be so
deeply offensive. I submit all our correspondences to the CoC
committee and complain that you're purposely using language that is
extremely offensive.

What is a "fair" outcome? Should you be banned? Should you be forced
to change the wording of your proposal that no one else has
complained about and others support? What is a fair, just outcome?


I think the fundamental outcome is likely to be that people who cause 
trouble are likely to get trouble.  This sort of case really doesn't 
worry me.  I am sure whoever is stirring the pot will be asked at least 
to cease doing so.


Your example is flawed because:

Multi-Partner has nothing to do with sexuality unless you want to make 
the argument that your belief is that a relationship should be between 
one person and another and in this argument a man and a woman which has 
literally nothing to do with the word multi or partner in a technical 
context.


Your example would carry better wait if you used master-master 
replication to be man-man or woman-woman neither of which makes any 
sense in the context of replication.


Since man-man or woman-woman makes zero sense in the context of 
replication it would immediately be -1 from all the -hackers of any 
sense which for the most part is all of them.


In short the fundamental outcome is that the community wouldn't let it 
get that far. We have 20 years of results to show in that one.


JD




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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 06/05/2018 09:32 AM, Tom Lane wrote:

James Keener  writes:

I don't participate too much here, but I've never see a group implement
a code of conduct go well.


Yeah, personally I'm a bit worried about this too.  The proposed CoC
does contain provisions to try to prevent misusing it, but whether those
are strong enough remains to be seen --- and it'll depend a good deal
on the judgment of the committee members.  We have a provision in there
for periodic review of the CoC, and it'll be important to adjust it if
we see abuses.


A community that has an exceedingly reasonable and popular CoC is Ubuntu:

https://www.ubuntu.com/community/code-of-conduct

JD


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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 06/05/2018 08:41 AM, Lutz Horn wrote:

Am 05.06.2018 17:26 schrieb Joshua D. Drake:

As one of the people that interacts with external members of the
community more than most, I can tell you that a CoC is something the
wider community wants. I have sat in feedback meetings with hundreds
of people who are potential community members. These people have
ranged in age, gender, sexual orientation and technical capability on
all realms of the spectrum. The majority of them aren't interested if
we do not have a written Code of Conduct.


May I ask what the context of these meetings was? Where where they held? 
For which country or part of the broader community where the 
participants representative?


Happy to discuss offlist. I don't want to distract from this thread.

jD



Regards

Lutz





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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 06/05/2018 08:19 AM, Lutz Horn wrote:

Am 05.06.2018 17:03 schrieb Chris Travers:

On to the code of conduct committee:

This needs to be explicitly international and ideally people from very
different cultures.  This is the best protection against one small group
within one country deciding to push a political agenda via the Code of
Conduct.  I would recommend adding a note here that the committee will be
international and culturally diverse, and tasked with keeping the 
peace and

facilitating a productive and collegial environment.


I strongly agree with this.

CoCs discussed in other projects have an inclination towards US view 
points. Maybe the reason for this is that many community members are US 
residents and are having the problems of their society in mind when 
thinking of what a CoC should be. But what is acceptable in the US might 
be unacceptable in other parts of the world and vice versa.


Please procure that the CoC is not a vehicle to propagate US values.


Let's remember that we are an International project and let's not direct 
particular frustration at any particular set of values. It would be very 
easy to start a culture war within this thread alone.


JD




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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 06/05/2018 07:45 AM, Chris Travers wrote:


It is my hope that PostgreSQL.Org -Core chooses members for that
committee that are exceedingly diverse otherwise it is just an echo
chamber for a single ideology and that will destroy this community.


If I may suggest:  The committee should be international as well and 
include people from around the world.  The last thing we want is for it 
to be dominated by people from one particular cultural viewpoint.




+1



"considered offensive by fellow members"

Is definitely too broad. The problem comes in here:

I might possibly say that "I'm the master in this area" when
talking to someone on a technical subject.  In the sense that
I'm better at that particular skill, but some hypersensitive
American could get their knickers in a twist (notice, that in
this context, no gender is implied -- also in using that that
expression "get their knickers in a twist" could offend some
snowflake) claiming that I'm suggesting that whoever


"snowflake", I find that term hilarious others find it highly
offensive. Which is correct?


I agree with both concerns in the above exchange.

This is an economic common project.  The goal should be for people to 
come together and act civilly.  Waging culture war using the code of 
conduct itself should be a violation of the code of conduct and this 
goes on *all* (not just one or two) sides.




[snip]



Yes and that is a problem. We need to have some simple barrier of
acceptance that we are all adults here (or should act like adults).
Knowing your audience is important.


I would point out also that the PostgreSQL community is nice and 
mature.  At PGConf US I saw what appeared to be two individuals with red 
MAGA hats.  And yet everyone managed to be civil.  We manage to do 
better than the US does on the whole in this regard and we should be 
proud of ourselves.


To be fair, those were South Africans but yes, nobody gave them any 
public grief as far as I know.




Correct. I think one way to look at all of this is, "if you wouldn't
say it to your boss or a client don't say it here". That too has
problems but generally speaking I think it keeps the restrictions
rational.


I will post a more specific set of thoughts here but in general I think 
the presumption ought to be that people are trying to work together.  
Misunderstanding can happen.  But let's try to act in a collegial and 
generally respectful way around eachother.


+1

JD




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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 06/04/2018 09:55 PM, Tom Lane wrote:

Adrian Klaver  writes:

On 06/03/2018 11:29 AM, Tom Lane wrote:

https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct
We are now asking for a final round of community comments.



My comments:



1) Reiterate my contention that this is a solution is search of problem.


As I mentioned elsewhere, I'm aware of at least one actual case of a
person leaving the community because of harassment.  I do not think
it's a hypothetical problem.  Whether a CoC can fix it remains to
be seen, but doing nothing will certainly not fix it.


Adrian,

As one of the people that interacts with external members of the 
community more than most, I can tell you that a CoC is something the 
wider community wants. I have sat in feedback meetings with hundreds of 
people who are potential community members. These people have ranged in 
age, gender, sexual orientation and technical capability on all realms 
of the spectrum. The majority of them aren't interested if we do not 
have a written Code of Conduct.


All PostgreSQL contributors should be looking at this as an opportunity 
to grow our community in a more open and diverse way.


Thanks,

JD


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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 06/04/2018 01:46 PM, Tom Lane wrote:

"Joshua D. Drake"  writes:

On 06/03/2018 11:29 AM, Tom Lane wrote:

We are now asking for a final round of community comments.

Actually, it's intentional that we are not saying that.  The idea is
that any interaction between PG community members is subject to the CoC,
whether it takes place in postgresql.org infrastructure or not, so long as
there is not another CoC that takes precedence (such as a conference's
CoC).  The reason for this is an unfortunate situation that took place in
the FreeBSD community awhile back [1], wherein one community member was
abusing another via Twitter, and their existing CoC failed to cover that
because it had been explicitly written to cover only community-run forums.
So we're trying to learn from that mistake, and make sure that if such a
situation ever came up here, the CoC committee would have authority to
act.


O.k. I can see that. The problem I am trying to prevent is contributor X 
being disciplined for behavior that has nothing to do with 
PostgreSQL.Org. I am not sure what the exact good solution is for that 
but it is none of our business if contributor X gets into a fight 
(online or not) with anyone who is not within the PostgreSQL.Org community.


Thanks,

JD


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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 06/04/2018 06:33 AM, Benjamin Scherrey wrote:



     I did go back and read through the 2016 content rather thoroughly. 
But where has all the discussion been going on for the last two years? 
Am I to understand that this effort has been going on in an entirely 
undocumented manner? I find that difficult to fathom such a thing 
happening in this community so I'm sure my understanding is mistaken. 
Where can we see the details of what was considered and what drove the 
committee to its apparently final proposal?


The -core committee has been taking a more direct approach to policies 
within the community without the traditional community input. This is 
both good and bad. Discussions of a policy nature are inherently 
political and thus opening it to the wider community can be a large 
distraction to the purpose of the community.


The downside is that some policies are now coming down via fiat or at 
least very little actual discourse on need, direction or purpose.


JD


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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 06/04/2018 09:44 AM, Ron wrote:
If there's been so much Bad Behavior that's so Weakened the Community, 
then someone's done an excellent job of hiding that Bad Behavior.


The inner circle of any community is very good at protecting itself and 
exerting authority without representation or recourse due to a single 
ideology of protectionism of one's status or potential public blow back 
at said community.


JD



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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 06/03/2018 04:08 PM, Gavin Flower wrote:


My comments:

1) Reiterate my contention that this is a solution is search of 
problem. Still it looks like it is going forward, so see below.


2) "... engaging in behavior that may bring the PostgreSQL project 
into disrepute, ..."
This to me is overly broad and pulls in actions that may happen 
outside the community. Those if they are actually an issue should be 
handled where they occur not here.


This is good point. There are those who would think that one has 
performed an action that brings the project into disrepute and a similar 
sized bias that suggests that in fact that isn't the case. This based on 
the CoC would be judged by the CoC committee.


It is my hope that PostgreSQL.Org -Core chooses members for that 
committee that are exceedingly diverse otherwise it is just an echo 
chamber for a single ideology and that will destroy this community.




3) "... members must be sensitive to conduct that may be considered 
offensive by fellow members and must refrain from engaging in such 
conduct. "


Again overly broad, especially given the hypersensitivity of people 
these days. I have found that it is enough to disagree with someone to 
have it called offensive. This section should be removed as proscribed 
behavior is called out in detail in the paragraphs above it.


"considered offensive by fellow members"

Is definitely too broad. The problem comes in here:

I might possibly say that "I'm the master in this area" when talking to 
someone on a technical subject.  In the sense that I'm better at that 
particular skill, but some hypersensitive American could get their 
knickers in a twist (notice, that in this context, no gender is implied 
-- also in using that that expression "get their knickers in a twist" 
could offend some snowflake) claiming that I'm suggesting that whoever 


"snowflake", I find that term hilarious others find it highly offensive. 
Which is correct?


I'm talking to is my slave!  I heard of an American university that 
doesn't want people to use the term master, like in an MSc, because of 
the history of slavery.


The PostgreSQL project already has this problem, note we don't use the 
terms Master and Slave in reference to replication anymore.




I've used the expressions "sacrifice a willing virgin" and "offering my 
first born to the gods" as ways to ensure success of resolving a 
technical issue.  The people I say that to, know what I mean -- and they 
implicitly know that I'm not seriously suggesting such conduct.  Yet, if 
I wrote that publicly, it is conceivable that someone might object!


Yes and that is a problem. We need to have some simple barrier of 
acceptance that we are all adults here (or should act like adults). 
Knowing your audience is important.


Consider a past advertising campaign in Australia to sell government 
Bonds.  They used two very common hand gestures that are very 
Australian.  Bond sales dropped.  On investigation, they found the bonds 
were mainly bought by old Greek people, who found the gestures obscene. 
The gestures?  Thumbs up, and the okay gesture formed by touching the 
thumb with the next finger -- nothing sexually suggestive to most 
Australians, but traditional Greeks found them offensive.


Using Australia as an example, my understanding is that the word c**t is 
part of nomenclature but in the states the word is taboo and highly 
frowned upon.



Be very careful in attempting to codify 'correct' behaviour!



Correct. I think one way to look at all of this is, "if you wouldn't say 
it to your boss or a client don't say it here". That too has problems 
but generally speaking I think it keeps the restrictions rational.


JD


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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 06/03/2018 11:29 AM, Tom Lane wrote:


https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct

We are now asking for a final round of community comments.
Please send any public comments to the pgsql-general list (only).
If you wish to make a private comment, you may send it to
c...@postgresql.org.


Thanks for all the efforts on this. It is nice to see us explicitly 
moving toward modernizing our community policies and creating an openly 
inclusive community. There are a couple of notes I have about this:


I think we need language that explicitly states that this is about 
participation within postgresql.org only. It is not postgresql.org's 
mission or purpose to police actions outside of their domain. The 
following minor modification would work:


"To that end, we have established this Code of Conduct for community 
interaction and participation within the Postgresql.org project."


There is no language that protects different political or social views. 
In today's climate it is important especially as we are a worldwide 
project. Something simple like the following should be enough:


"Examples of personal characteristics include, but are not limited to 
age, race, national origin or ancestry, religion, political affiliation, 
social class, gender, or sexual orientation."


JD

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Re: Code of Conduct plan

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 06/03/2018 05:57 PM, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:


Anyway, a big +1 to the effort of everyone who worked on the CoC for
the past several years. From feedback in other forums through the years,
I know it does make a difference to have a code of conduct in terms of
helping people to feel more welcome and knowing that there is an
avenue for them to voice feedback in the case of an unfortunate incident.


This is the #1 reason for a Code of Conduct.

JD



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Re: Renice on Postgresql process

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 05/23/2018 04:36 PM, Ben Chobot wrote:



On May 7, 2018, at 11:50 PM, Ayappan P2 > wrote:


We are doing "renice" on the main Postgresql process to give higher 
scheduling priority because other critical operations depends on the 
database.
You are saying that the database processes take longer to relinquish 
their resources and we won't achieve anything out of renice, So i 
assume renice of the database processes is not at all required ?

Thanks
Ayappan P


Yes, if you make a db process nicer than the db takes longer to answer 
your queries. If the goal is to keep the load down on the db, that is 
usually going to be counterproductive.


Correct or in other words, the problem is bad provisioning. You need to 
optimize your resources whether that be hardware/vm or code.


JD



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Re: FDW with DB2

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 04/06/2018 01:01 PM, Ravi Krishna wrote:

Has anyone used PG with DB2(Linux) ?


Looks like the way you go about it is with the ODBC FDW.

JD


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Congrats to PostgreSQL sponsor OpenSCG

[Joshua D. Drake]

Community,

Major PostgreSQL Sponsor OpenSCG has just been acquired by PostgreSQL 
sponsor AWS.


Congrats to both companies!

JD

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Re: Postgresql 9.3 Server will not start after Ubuntu Upgrade

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 03/27/2018 11:00 AM, Ken Beck wrote:

And, looking for log files, I find none.


Nothing in /var/log/postgresql or /var/lib/postgresql/9.3/main/pg_log?

JD
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Re: PostgreSQL version on VMware vSphere ESXI 6.5 and harware version 13

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 03/26/2018 07:03 AM, nmmulla wrote:

We are upgrading Vmware to version 6.5.

Operating system for virtual servers will not be changing. The other change
that will be happening is VM hardware version which will be upgraded from
current version ( 9 or 10) to version 13.


Your compatibility is based on the OS, not VMWare. As long as you are 
using a PostgreSQL compatible OS you are fine.


JD
--

Command Prompt, Inc. || http://the.postgres.company/ || @cmdpromptinc
***  A fault and talent of mine is to tell it exactly how it is.  ***
PostgreSQL centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Advocate: @amplifypostgres || Learn: https://postgresconf.org
* Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.   *

Re: system catalog permissions

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 02/26/2018 03:11 PM, PropAAS DBA wrote:

All;


We have a client which is segmenting their multi-tenant cluster 
(PostgreSQL 9.6) by schema, however if one of their clients connects 
via pgadmin they see ALL schemas, even the ones they don't have access 
to read. I assume pgadmin is pulling the list from the system catalogs.



What's the right/best practice approach? revoke all from public on 
specific system catalog tables? Which tables?


AFAIK, you can not hide the list of schemas but you can prevent people 
from entering them.



JD




Thanks in advance




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* Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.   *

Any community members in Phoenix, AZ?

[Joshua D. Drake]

Folks,

We have a Postgres meetup we have been trying to get off the ground in 
Phoenix:


https://www.meetup.com/Phoenix-Postgres/

We could use some help with facilities and speakers. Do we have any 
locals down there on this list? It would be great to get a team together 
to help with this newer meetup. We are having lots of success with 
organization of multiple groups but boots on the ground is always the 
hardest of the variables to solve for.


Thanks,

JD

--
Command Prompt, Inc. || http://the.postgres.company/ || @cmdpromptinc

PostgreSQL centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Advocate: @amplifypostgres || Learn: https://postgresconf.org
* Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.   *

Re: data-checksums

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/09/2018 12:22 PM, Andres Freund wrote:

On 2018-01-09 20:04:04 +0100, Rakesh Kumar wrote:

I also would like to believe that the hit is small, but when PG
official document writes "noticeable performance penalty", it becomes
difficult to convince management that the hit is small :-)

Why believe, when you can measure?

yup doing that.  But I still feel that PG documentation should stay
away from such scare mongering.  Or did the lawyers write that :)

So we should rather lie about it having a potential for performance
impact? Who'd be helped by that?


It isn't a lie, it depends on the workload and hardware. Adjusting the 
documentation to say something like the following probably isn't a bad idea:


The use of the data checksum feature may incur a performance penalty. 
However, this does depend on your particular workload and provisioned 
hardware. It is wise to test the feature based on your specific 
requirements.




JD

--
Command Prompt, Inc. || http://the.postgres.company/ || @cmdpromptinc

PostgreSQL centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Advocate: @amplifypostgres || Learn: https://postgresconf.org
* Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.   *

Re: Error creating a table

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 01/02/2018 02:38 PM, Dale Seaburg wrote:

le):

NOTICE: CREATE TABLE / PRIMARY KEY will create implicit index 
"public_rowkey" for table "ABSTRACT-SERVER_runsheet"


ERROR:  relation "public_rowkey" already exists

** Error **

ERROR: relation "public_rowkey" already exists
SQL state: 42P07

I have looked for rowkey in the "public" schema, but find nothing.
What can be the problem?  What might I be doing wrong?  I'm not sure 
what to do.


I don't use PgAdmin but the error appears to be looking for 
public_rowkey not public.rowkey. Further, it isn't a table you would be 
looking for but an index.


Thanks,

JD



Dale




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PostgreSQL centered full stack support, consulting and development.
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* Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.   *

Re: Does postgresq database supports reading data from the same table from many observable simultanousely?

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 12/22/2017 11:20 AM, hmidi slim wrote:
But is it possible to make simultanoues select queries from the same 
connection?


Yes but it will happen serially.


JD

--
Command Prompt, Inc. || http://the.postgres.company/ || @cmdpromptinc

PostgreSQL centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Advocate: @amplifypostgres || Learn: https://postgresconf.org
* Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.   *

Re: Warm standby can't start because logs stream too quickly from the master

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 12/02/2017 11:02 AM, Zach Walton wrote:


Generally this works itself out if I wait (sometimes a really long 
time). Is there a configuration option that allows a warm standby to 
start without having fully replayed the logs from the master?


* Note: wal_keep_segments is set to 8192 on these servers, which have 
large disks, to allow for recovery within a couple of hours of a 
failover without resorting to restoring from archive
* This is specifically an issue for pgpool recovery, which fails if a 
standby can't start within (by default) 300 seconds. Open to toggling 
that param if there's no way around this.


It needs to only reach a consistent state, it doesn't need restore all 
logs. What does your recovery.conf say and are you *100% sure% you 
issued a pg_stop_backup()?


JD



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Command Prompt, Inc. || http://the.postgres.company/ || @cmdpromptinc

PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Advocate: @amplifypostgres || Learn: https://pgconf.org
* Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.   *

Re: pg data backup from vps

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 12/01/2017 11:56 AM, support-tiger wrote:
To diversify risk, we would like to have a daily or weekly data backup 
stored in another location besides the VPS service we are using - 
pg_dump is great for the backup but transferring a growing db across 
the internet to a local machine disk seems slow - how are others 
handling this with postgresql ?  Thks.


I would consider something like an archiving slave (PITR).

JD



--
Command Prompt, Inc. || http://the.postgres.company/ || @cmdpromptinc

PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Advocate: @amplifypostgres || Learn: https://pgconf.org
* Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.   *

Re: Procmail recipe for new setup

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 11/20/2017 02:10 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

Hi all,

The following procmail recipe works for me:

===
:0:
* ^(To|Cc).*pgsql-gene...@postgresql.org
.Postgres/
===


You may want to use TO ... See here:

https://www.mhonarc.org/archive/html/procmail/1998-04/msg00093.html


Thanks,

JD

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Command Prompt, Inc. || http://the.postgres.company/ || @cmdpromptinc

PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Advocate: @amplifypostgres || Learn: https://pgconf.org
* Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.   *

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 11/20/2017 12:20 PM, Magnus Hagander wrote:
On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 9:07 PM, Joshua D. Drake <j...@commandprompt.com 
<mailto:j...@commandprompt.com>> wrote:


Not even remotely. People use gmail. See 
https://blog.hagander.net/mail-agents-in-the-postgresql-community-233/ 
<https://blog.hagander.net/mail-agents-in-the-postgresql-community-233/>.


And gmail does automatically show an unsubscribe link on these mails. 
See attached screenshot for the mail from Jonathan earlier today as an 
example.


Well Thunderbird is #2 ;) but yes I am aware that Gmail has the 
unsubscribe feature.


Thanks!

JD


--
Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 11/20/2017 12:03 PM, Tom Lane wrote:

Unfortunately, the removal of the footer is a feature not a bug.
In order to be DKIM-compatible and thus help avoid becoming classified
as spammers, we can't mangle message content anymore, just like we
can't mangle the Subject: line.


Ugh, o.k.

In principle, the List-Unsubscribe: headers that are now included in
mailing list headers allow MUAs to offer convenient unsubscribe
buttons.  Not sure how many of the people who are complaining use
mail agents that don't handle that.


I use Thunderbird which I imagine most people on the lists are using. I 
can't find where these would work to unsubscribe.


Well this is a pain for everyone it seems.

JD

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* Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.   *

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 11/20/2017 11:45 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:


So do you have any suggestions for actually fixing that? Given that 
we have more lists to migrate, if you can figure out a way to make 
those changes without peoples filters not matching, we'd be happy to 
hear it..


I was thinking about that. I was actually surprised at how many people 
this affected. It only affected one filter for me so it wasn't that 
big of a deal. One thing I would note is that there is no longer a 
footer that tells people what to do if they want to unsubscribe. 
Perhaps one thing that could be done is a header (for a temporary time 
period) that says:


The mailing list software of Postgresql.org has changed. Please see 
this page on instructions on how to manage your subscription and filters.


And then after the temporary time period that becomes a footer?


I would also note that removing the ability to unsubscribe in an 
standard fashion is rather user unfriendly. Although many spammers 
require that you go to a website, we rarely (I have never seen it) have 
to log in to unsubscribe from a list. If you add that most people and 
especially people that are on this list are going to be used to using 
email to subscribe/unsubscribe...


Thanks,

JD



Thanks,

JD



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Command Prompt, Inc. || http://the.postgres.company/ || @cmdpromptinc

PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Advocate: @amplifypostgres || Learn: https://pgconf.org
* Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.   *

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 11/20/2017 11:40 AM, Magnus Hagander wrote:


https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PGLister_Announce


Those looking to unsubscribe should also read that page.  Sending
"unsubscribe" messages to the list will not accomplish anything
except to annoy the rest of the list membership.


This is true but I would suggest it was a flaw in the migration
not the user wondering why they are currently getting spammed
because their filters no longer work.


So do you have any suggestions for actually fixing that? Given that we 
have more lists to migrate, if you can figure out a way to make those 
changes without peoples filters not matching, we'd be happy to hear it..


I was thinking about that. I was actually surprised at how many people 
this affected. It only affected one filter for me so it wasn't that big 
of a deal. One thing I would note is that there is no longer a footer 
that tells people what to do if they want to unsubscribe. Perhaps one 
thing that could be done is a header (for a temporary time period) that 
says:


The mailing list software of Postgresql.org has changed. Please see this 
page on instructions on how to manage your subscription and filters.


And then after the temporary time period that becomes a footer?

Thanks,

JD

--
Command Prompt, Inc. || http://the.postgres.company/ || @cmdpromptinc

PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Advocate: @amplifypostgres || Learn: https://pgconf.org
* Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.   *

Re: To all who wish to unsubscribe

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 11/20/2017 11:11 AM, Tom Lane wrote:

Vick Khera  writes:

Did the list software change? All my messages from here are not being properly 
auto-files by the filter I have set up.

Yes - did you not see either of the "migration to pglister" messages?
There's a summary of the changes at


I certainly didn't. It is rather difficult for people with day lives 
that do not revolve around postgresql.org to keep up with the large 
amount of traffic that comes from the lists.




https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PGLister_Announce

Those looking to unsubscribe should also read that page.  Sending
"unsubscribe" messages to the list will not accomplish anything
except to annoy the rest of the list membership.


This is true but I would suggest it was a flaw in the migration not the 
user wondering why they are currently getting spammed because their 
filters no longer work.


Thanks,

JD

--
Command Prompt, Inc. || http://the.postgres.company/ || @cmdpromptinc

PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Advocate: @amplifypostgres || Learn: https://pgconf.org
* Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.   *

Re: Migration to PGLister - After

[Joshua D. Drake]

On 11/20/2017 09:32 AM, John R Pierce wrote:

On 11/20/2017 6:45 AM, Stephen Frost wrote:

The changes which we expect to be most significant to users can be found
on the wiki here:https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PGLister_Announce  the
current version of which is also included below.



A peeve on this new configuration:    if someone does a reply-all and 
sends both direct and list responses, the direct response ends up in 
my regular inbox because it doesn't have the List-ID... Previously, 
the direct reply would still have the Subject: [listname] that I 
filtered on, so it too would end up in my 'postgres' folder, where I 
want it.


I realize why this was done, and yada yada, what a mess.



Yep, but that is why the list-id filter is bad advice (at least for me). 
I filter on the list email address and it works flawlessly.


JD



--
Command Prompt, Inc. || http://the.postgres.company/ || @cmdpromptinc

PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Advocate: @amplifypostgres || Learn: https://pgconf.org
* Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.   *