Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-28 Thread Josh Berkus
On 5/27/10 5:42 PM, Tom Lane wrote: Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com writes: We do not have a problem. The lists are fine the way they are. +1 ... wasn't the point I thought you were trying to make, but I'm good with not changing things. Yeah, that's because I was responding to the

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-28 Thread Jaime Casanova
On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com wrote: On 5/27/10 5:42 PM, Tom Lane wrote: Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com writes: We do not have a problem.   The lists are fine the way they are. +1 ... wasn't the point I thought you were trying to make, but I'm good with not

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-27 Thread Greg Stark
On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 7:38 AM, Marc G. Fournier scra...@hub.org wrote: most people are not prepared to understand the concept of more than one list for project... Apparently you don't use very many large projects ... FreeBSD has 20+ lists, dedicated to various aspects of both end user and

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-27 Thread Marc G. Fournier
On Thu, 27 May 2010, Greg Stark wrote: Sure, if we have distinctions which make sense then having separate lists makes sense. Linux has separate lists for different drivers, different parts of the kernel, projects to improve the kernel in various specific ways (latency, etc). I'm all for having

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-27 Thread Josh Berkus
On 5/27/10 8:38 AM, Greg Stark wrote: Lists like -ecpg or -odbc would work fine if the traffic warranted them. A low-traffic list is a feature, not a bug. Most people don't *like* subscribing to lists which have 80posts/day. But some of the lists we have now are 99% overlap with each other

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-27 Thread Tom Lane
Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com writes: On 5/27/10 8:38 AM, Greg Stark wrote: Mot administration questions are originally posed as general help questions. If you're subscribed to these lists you get a random, fairly small, subset of discussion related these topics. Only someone who is a

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-27 Thread alvherre
Excerpts from Josh Berkus's message of jue may 27 14:11:51 -0400 2010: Only someone who is a postgresql developer would consider 15-30 posts/day small. For most of our user base, the level of traffic on -performance, -sql, and -general is already too high and many people don't subscribe to

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-27 Thread Tom Lane
Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com writes: We do not have a problem. The lists are fine the way they are. +1 ... wasn't the point I thought you were trying to make, but I'm good with not changing things. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-15 Thread Marc G. Fournier
On Sat, 15 May 2010, Jaime Casanova wrote: On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 8:39 AM, Marc G. Fournier scra...@hub.org wrote: And IMHO, that is as much a fault of the 'old timers' on the lists as the newbies ... if nobody redirects / loosely enforces the mandates of the various lists, newbies aren't

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-15 Thread Rob Wultsch
Linux has *as many if not more* ... MySQL, if memory servers, has a half dozen or more ... etc ... MySQL has a bunch of lists, none of which get much traffic. Honestly, they should probably be combined. -- Rob Wultsch -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-15 Thread Marc G. Fournier
[redirected to -chat] On Fri, 14 May 2010, Rob Wultsch wrote: Linux has *as many if not more* ... MySQL, if memory servers, has a half dozen or more ... etc ... MySQL has a bunch of lists, none of which get much traffic. Honestly, they should probably be combined. Except, when you do

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-15 Thread Rob Wultsch
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 11:50 PM, Rob Wultsch wult...@gmail.com wrote: Linux has *as many if not more* ... MySQL, if memory servers, has a half dozen or more ... etc ... MySQL has a bunch of lists, none of which get much traffic. Honestly, they should probably be combined. -- Rob Wultsch

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Yeb Havinga
Marc G. Fournier wrote: On Thu, 13 May 2010, Alvaro Herrera wrote: Excerpts from Yeb Havinga's message of jue may 13 15:06:53 -0400 2010: My $0.02 - I like the whole 'don't sort, search' (or how did they call it?) just let the inbox fill up, google is fast enough. What would be really

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Greg Sabino Mullane
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: RIPEMD160 ... is there a reason why, other the fact that we don't do now, that we can't just put in a restriction against cross posting altogether? Because that would be shooting ourselves in the foot. Cross-posting is often desirable. If we had a

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Greg Sabino Mullane
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: RIPEMD160 There is no reason why advocacy can't happen on general. Theoretically www could be on hackers (although I do see the point of a separate list). I don't feel as strong about -advocacy being removed, but we certainly can fold in -sql and

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Kevin Grittner
Greg Sabino Mullane g...@turnstep.com wrote: Would anyone argue against rolling those two (sql and admin) into -general as a first step? At the risk of repeating myself, I won't be able to keep up with the traffic of the combined list; so rather than read 100% of the messages from a smaller

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Marc G. Fournier
On Fri, 14 May 2010, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: RIPEMD160 ... is there a reason why, other the fact that we don't do now, that we can't just put in a restriction against cross posting altogether? Because that would be shooting ourselves in the

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Marc G. Fournier
On Fri, 14 May 2010, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: RIPEMD160 There is no reason why advocacy can't happen on general. Theoretically www could be on hackers (although I do see the point of a separate list). I don't feel as strong about -advocacy being

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Marc G. Fournier
On Fri, 14 May 2010, Kevin Grittner wrote: Greg Sabino Mullane g...@turnstep.com wrote: Would anyone argue against rolling those two (sql and admin) into -general as a first step? At the risk of repeating myself, I won't be able to keep up with the traffic of the combined list; so rather

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Kevin Grittner
Marc G. Fournier scra...@hub.org wrote: -sql : how to write a query -performance : how to improve performance of my queries -admin : how to admin the server -novice : I'm a new user -odbc : how to use ... -php : php related interface questions -interfaces : more general then -odbc why

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Tom Lane
Marc G. Fournier scra...@hub.org writes: why not close down -general so that ppl *have* to use better pick where to post their question ... I can't imagine that there's not going to need to be a catchall list for problems that don't fit into any of the subcategories. More generally, we

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Marc G. Fournier
On Fri, 14 May 2010, Yeb Havinga wrote: Marc G. Fournier wrote: On Thu, 13 May 2010, Alvaro Herrera wrote: Excerpts from Yeb Havinga's message of jue may 13 15:06:53 -0400 2010: My $0.02 - I like the whole 'don't sort, search' (or how did they call it?) just let the inbox fill up, google

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Kevin Grittner
Tom Lane t...@sss.pgh.pa.us wrote: I can't imagine that there's not going to need to be a catchall list for problems that don't fit into any of the subcategories. More generally, we already have most of the lists that you suggest, and we already know that people frequently don't find the

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Josh Berkus
There is no reason why advocacy can't happen on general. Theoretically www could be on hackers (although I do see the point of a separate list). First off, this is absolutely the wrong list to be discussing management of PostgreSQL lists. That belongs on pgsql-www. And, I'll point out,

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Yeb Havinga
Marc G. Fournier wrote: On Fri, 14 May 2010, Yeb Havinga wrote: Marc G. Fournier wrote: On Thu, 13 May 2010, Alvaro Herrera wrote: Excerpts from Yeb Havinga's message of jue may 13 15:06:53 -0400 2010: My $0.02 - I like the whole 'don't sort, search' (or how did they call it?) just let

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Marc G. Fournier
On Fri, 14 May 2010, Kevin Grittner wrote: Well, redoubling our current efforts to direct people to more specific lists would accomplish nothing, since doubling zero leaves you with zero. The description of -general includes: Agreed ... Given that, the fact that -admin, -novice, -sql, and

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Marc G. Fournier
On Fri, 14 May 2010, Josh Berkus wrote: First off, this is absolutely the wrong list to be discussing management of PostgreSQL lists. That belongs on pgsql-www. Actually, this is as good a list as any ... -www is for WWW related issues, not mailing list ... be as inappropriate there as it

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Selena Deckelmann
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com wrote: Second, regarding advocacy: no, absolutely not.  -advocacy is a working list and not a virtual water cooler. +1. I would find it very difficult to manage having -advocacy thrown into -general. If folks think that

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Bruce Momjian
Kevin Grittner wrote: Tom Lane t...@sss.pgh.pa.us wrote: I can't imagine that there's not going to need to be a catchall list for problems that don't fit into any of the subcategories. More generally, we already have most of the lists that you suggest, and we already know that

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Marc G. Fournier
On Fri, 14 May 2010, Bruce Momjian wrote: FYI, I usually email new people privately that cross-posting a question can cause the question to be ignored. They usually respond positively and avoid it in the future. We all have our own methods ... for instance, I just CC'd this to -chat with a

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Greg Smith
Tom Lane wrote: I can see the need for small tightly-focused special lists. How about a list devoted to discussions about reorganizing the lists? It would get plenty of traffic, and then I could not subscribe to that and have that many less messages to read. There is only one viable

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Greg Stark
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 4:39 AM, Greg Smith g...@2ndquadrant.com wrote: Is it helpful to novices that they can subscribe to a list when they won't be overwhelmed by traffic, and can ask questions without being too concerned about being harassed for being newbies?  Probably. Only if they

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Marc G. Fournier
On Fri, 14 May 2010, Greg Stark wrote: On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 4:39 AM, Greg Smith g...@2ndquadrant.com wrote: Is it helpful to novices that they can subscribe to a list when they won't be overwhelmed by traffic, and can ask questions without being too concerned about being harassed for being

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Robert Haas
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 11:39 PM, Greg Smith g...@2ndquadrant.com wrote: The only real argument to keep some more targeted lists is for the benefit of the people who subscribe to them, not we the faithful, so that they can have something that isn't a firehose of messages to sort through.  Is it

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Kevin Grittner
Greg Stark gsst...@mit.edu wrote: If they're interested in performance topics and they're not subscribed to -general then they're missing *most* of what they're interested in which doesn't take place on -performance. Well, I for one can't currently suck the end of the fire hose which is

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Marc G. Fournier
[moved to -chat] On Fri, 14 May 2010, Kevin Grittner wrote: I think that's exactly backwards -- we shouldn't have any traffic on -general for issues which could reasonably happen in another list. You can always configure your email to combine lists into a common folder upon receipt.

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-14 Thread Jaime Casanova
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 8:39 AM, Marc G. Fournier scra...@hub.org wrote: And IMHO, that is as much a fault of the 'old timers' on the lists as the newbies ... if nobody redirects / loosely enforces the mandates of the various lists, newbies aren't going to learn to post to more appropriate

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-13 Thread Magnus Hagander
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 2:04 AM, Marc G. Fournier scra...@hub.org wrote: On Wed, 12 May 2010, Greg Stark wrote: I'm thinking I'll move -general (and the useless -novice) to another folder. But I'm left wondering what to do with -admin and -performance. They're a random mix of user content

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-13 Thread Marc G. Fournier
On Thu, 13 May 2010, Magnus Hagander wrote: On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 2:04 AM, Marc G. Fournier scra...@hub.org wrote: On Wed, 12 May 2010, Greg Stark wrote: I'm thinking I'll move -general (and the useless -novice) to another folder. But I'm left wondering what to do with -admin and

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-13 Thread Magnus Hagander
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Marc G. Fournier scra...@hub.org wrote: On Thu, 13 May 2010, Magnus Hagander wrote: On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 2:04 AM, Marc G. Fournier scra...@hub.org wrote: On Wed, 12 May 2010, Greg Stark wrote: I'm thinking I'll move -general (and the useless -novice) to

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-13 Thread damien clochard
Le 11/05/2010 19:24, Alvaro Herrera a écrit : Excerpts from Marc G. Fournier's message of mar may 11 09:58:34 -0400 2010: If list traffic, especially on -hackers, is getting so large, should we look at maybe splitting it? I could easily enough split things such that I duplicate the

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-13 Thread Greg Stark
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 5:24 PM, Robert Haas robertmh...@gmail.com wrote: The difference between discussing a patch and discussing an idea that might lead to a patch is fairly fine. And importantly -- who would be able to subscribe to one and not the other? If you have to subscribe to both to

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-13 Thread Marc G. Fournier
My thought had been a split along the lines of major components of the server ... for instance, a totally seperate list for HS related issues, so that, if nothing else, those 'lurkers' that are only interested in developments on that front could be there but not on the main stream -hackers

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-13 Thread Yeb Havinga
Greg Stark wrote: On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 5:24 PM, Robert Haas robertmh...@gmail.com wrote: The difference between discussing a patch and discussing an idea that might lead to a patch is fairly fine. And importantly -- who would be able to subscribe to one and not the other? If you

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-13 Thread Magnus Hagander
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 8:05 PM, Marc G. Fournier scra...@hub.org wrote: My thought had been a split along the lines of major components of the server ... for instance, a totally seperate list for HS related issues, so that, if nothing else, those 'lurkers' that are only interested in

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-13 Thread Marc G. Fournier
On Thu, 13 May 2010, Magnus Hagander wrote: On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 8:05 PM, Marc G. Fournier scra...@hub.org wrote: My thought had been a split along the lines of major components of the server ... for instance, a totally seperate list for HS related issues, so that, if nothing else, those

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-13 Thread Alvaro Herrera
Excerpts from Yeb Havinga's message of jue may 13 15:06:53 -0400 2010: Now I made a new gmail account, subscribed to all lists with some volume and let it all message per message come into the inbox. Together with thunderbird/imap this works quite nicely. With filters it's possible to tag

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-13 Thread Marc G. Fournier
On Thu, 13 May 2010, Alvaro Herrera wrote: Excerpts from Yeb Havinga's message of jue may 13 15:06:53 -0400 2010: My $0.02 - I like the whole 'don't sort, search' (or how did they call it?) just let the inbox fill up, google is fast enough. What would be really interesting is to have some

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-13 Thread Tom Lane
Marc G. Fournier scra...@hub.org writes: On Thu, 13 May 2010, Magnus Hagander wrote: We tried that with pgsql-hackers-win32 and iirc also pgsql-hackers-pitr, and it was a big failure... But, we are doing that now with pgsql-cluster-hackers and it looks to be working quite well from what I

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-13 Thread Dimitri Fontaine
Alvaro Herrera alvhe...@alvh.no-ip.org writes: Excerpts from Yeb Havinga's message of jue may 13 15:06:53 -0400 2010: Now I made a new gmail account Yeah, this approach is interesting. A few days ago I started using Sup ( http://sup.rubyforge.org/ ) to manage my email Feature wise, I think

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-13 Thread Marc G. Fournier
On Thu, 13 May 2010, Tom Lane wrote: Marc G. Fournier scra...@hub.org writes: On Thu, 13 May 2010, Magnus Hagander wrote: We tried that with pgsql-hackers-win32 and iirc also pgsql-hackers-pitr, and it was a big failure... But, we are doing that now with pgsql-cluster-hackers and it looks

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-13 Thread Joshua D. Drake
On Thu, 2010-05-13 at 19:13 -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote: On Thu, 13 May 2010, Tom Lane wrote: Marc G. Fournier scra...@hub.org writes: On Thu, 13 May 2010, Magnus Hagander wrote: We tried that with pgsql-hackers-win32 and iirc also pgsql-hackers-pitr, and it was a big failure...

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-13 Thread Tom Lane
Joshua D. Drake j...@commandprompt.com writes: On Thu, 2010-05-13 at 19:13 -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote: But that, IMHO, is the point of the smaller list ... it allows the group on that list to hash out their ideas, and, hopefully, deal with both arguments and counter arguments so that when

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-13 Thread Marc G. Fournier
On Thu, 13 May 2010, Joshua D. Drake wrote: Between labels, filters, watch lists and all the other goodies any MUA will give you, I see no reason to have this all broken out anymore. So, if one merges all the lists into one (not arguing for / against that), how do you filter? Based on what?

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-13 Thread Alvaro Herrera
Excerpts from Marc G. Fournier's message of jue may 13 23:11:40 -0400 2010: On Thu, 13 May 2010, Joshua D. Drake wrote: Between labels, filters, watch lists and all the other goodies any MUA will give you, I see no reason to have this all broken out anymore. So, if one merges all the

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-13 Thread Marc G. Fournier
On Thu, 13 May 2010, Alvaro Herrera wrote: If most of the questions are badly categorized or cross posted to more than one list, how useful a label is the X-Mailing-List header? How useful is to filter on the pgsql-general label? That is a point, but, IMHO, that is one of our key issues ...

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-12 Thread Marc G. Fournier
On Tue, 11 May 2010, Alvaro Herrera wrote: Excerpts from Marc G. Fournier's message of mar may 11 09:58:34 -0400 2010: If list traffic, especially on -hackers, is getting so large, should we look at maybe splitting it? I could easily enough split things such that I duplicate the subscriber

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-12 Thread Alvaro Herrera
Excerpts from Marc G. Fournier's message of mar may 11 09:58:34 -0400 2010: If list traffic, especially on -hackers, is getting so large, should we look at maybe splitting it? I could easily enough split things such that I duplicate the subscriber list, so nobody would have to subscribe,

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-12 Thread Robert Haas
On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 1:32 PM, Marc G. Fournier scra...@hub.org wrote: On Tue, 11 May 2010, Alvaro Herrera wrote: Excerpts from Marc G. Fournier's message of mar may 11 09:58:34 -0400 2010: If list traffic, especially on -hackers, is getting so large, should we look at maybe splitting it?

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-12 Thread Marc G. Fournier
On Wed, 12 May 2010, Greg Stark wrote: I'm thinking I'll move -general (and the useless -novice) to another folder. But I'm left wondering what to do with -admin and -performance. They're a random mix of user content and developer content. I'll probably move them along with -general but that

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-11 Thread Bruce Momjian
Simon Riggs wrote: Traffic on the PostgreSQL lists is very high now and I freely admit that reading every email is simply not possible for me, even the ones that mention topics that keyword searches tell me are of potential interest. If anybody knows of a bug or suspected bug in my code, I

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-11 Thread Marc G. Fournier
On Tue, 11 May 2010, Bruce Momjian wrote: Simon Riggs wrote: Traffic on the PostgreSQL lists is very high now and I freely admit that reading every email is simply not possible for me, even the ones that mention topics that keyword searches tell me are of potential interest. If anybody knows

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-11 Thread Magnus Hagander
On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Marc G. Fournier scra...@hub.org wrote: On Tue, 11 May 2010, Bruce Momjian wrote: Simon Riggs wrote: Traffic on the PostgreSQL lists is very high now and I freely admit that reading every email is simply not possible for me, even the ones that mention topics

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-11 Thread Simon Riggs
On Tue, 2010-05-11 at 09:50 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: Simon Riggs wrote: Traffic on the PostgreSQL lists is very high now and I freely admit that reading every email is simply not possible for me, even the ones that mention topics that keyword searches tell me are of potential

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-11 Thread Bruce Momjian
Simon Riggs wrote: On Tue, 2010-05-11 at 09:50 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: Simon Riggs wrote: Traffic on the PostgreSQL lists is very high now and I freely admit that reading every email is simply not possible for me, even the ones that mention topics that keyword searches tell me

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-11 Thread Tom Lane
Magnus Hagander mag...@hagander.net writes: On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Marc G. Fournier scra...@hub.org wrote: Not sure where the split would be, mind you ... almost thinking about patch review / discussions vs hashing out new features or something like that ... We just *discontinued*

Re: [HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-11 Thread Simon Riggs
On Tue, 2010-05-11 at 10:23 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: Sure. You did a huge job of getting HS done and I will try to help where I can, and I know you have a business to run (http://www.2ndquadrant.com/). 2ndQuadrant is in the end the main and final reason Hot Standby exists and has now

[HACKERS] List traffic

2010-05-09 Thread Simon Riggs
Traffic on the PostgreSQL lists is very high now and I freely admit that reading every email is simply not possible for me, even the ones that mention topics that keyword searches tell me are of potential interest. If anybody knows of a bug or suspected bug in my code, I have no problem in being