On Thu, Oct 12, 2006 at 06:58:52PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> I wrote:
> > aggregate_state would have no other uses in the system, and its input
> > and output functions would raise an error, so type safety is assured
> > --- there would be no way to call either the sfunc or ffunc "manually",
> > exc
On Thu, Oct 12, 2006 at 08:01:06PM -0500, Andrew Dunstan wrote:
> > I think one idea is a "pedantic" mode that fails if an unrecognized
> > option is supplied.
>
> I do not see any point at all in a special mode. If you know enough to
> want to use it you should be able to protect yourself more di
> The _other_ way it's going to be used is as a stealthy
> alteration to regular behaviour, to solve a particular nasty
> performance problem that happens to result on a given day.
> And every single time I've seen anything like that done, the
> long term effect is always monstrous.
Funny, I
> I actually think the way to attack this issue is to discuss the kinds
of errors the planner makes, and what tweaks we could do to correct
them.
> Here's the ones I'm aware of:
>
> -- Incorrect selectivity of WHERE clause
> -- Incorrect selectivity of JOIN
> -- Wrong estimate of rows returned f
> And, to give you a starting point: the discussion has morphed into:
> "What manual ways can we come up with for the DBA to
> influence the planner and fix planner "bugs" which won't have
> the fragility of query-based hints ala Oracle?"
I see a few downsides though:
1. it lacks a way to try
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Andrew Sullivan) wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 12, 2006 at 08:34:45AM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote:
> >
> > Some statistics are very hard to gather from a sample, e.g. the number
> > of distinct values in a column.
>
> I like the suggestion, though, tha
Hi,
Currently a "select * from pg_statio_user_tables;" displays only
heap_blks_read, heap_blks_hit stats amongst others for the main
relation. It would be good to have the following stats collected too. I
think these stats can be used to better statistically
analyze/understand the block I/O activ
On Thu, Oct 12, 2006 at 05:26:02PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> What I think people wanted was something like that, but maintained
> during the development cycle, so they would know what features our being
> worked on, and by whom.
I'd be happy to work on that.
> One great thing about the list I
Martijn van Oosterhout writes:
> What this really calls for is a type that users are forbidden to
> interact with directly. Basically, the type may only be used by C
> functions and such C functions may not appear in an SQL query.
That's not really the flavor of solution I'd like to have. Ideall
Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 12, 2006 at 05:26:02PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > What I think people wanted was something like that, but maintained
> > during the development cycle, so they would know what features our being
> > worked on, and by whom.
>
> I'd be happy to work on that.
On Fri, Oct 13, 2006 at 10:41:36AM +0200, Zeugswetter Andreas ADI SD wrote:
> Can you give us an example that had such a monstrous effect in Oracle,
> other than that the hint was a mistake in the first place ?
Of course the hint was a mistake in the first place; the little story
I told was exactl
Martijn van Oosterhout writes:
> I would like a pedantic mode, but the method of activation is a tricky
> issue. You want it to be 'on' for normal users but 'off' for automatic
> build scripts.
A quiet mode would work better, because it could be on by default for
both cases. However, people may
> And remember, the places where PostgreSQL is getting used most
> heavily are still the sort of environments where people will take a
> lot of short cuts to achieve an immediate result, and be annoyed when
> that short cut later turns out to have been expensive. Postgres will
> get a black eye fr
> > Can you give us an example that had such a monstrous effect in
Oracle,
> > other than that the hint was a mistake in the first place ?
>
> Of course the hint was a mistake in the first place; the
> little story I told was exactly an example of such a case.
> The hint shouldn't have been p
Tom Lane wrote:
> Martijn van Oosterhout writes:
> > I would like a pedantic mode, but the method of activation is a tricky
> > issue. You want it to be 'on' for normal users but 'off' for automatic
> > build scripts.
>
> A quiet mode would work better, because it could be on by default for
> bo
On Thu, Oct 12, 2006 at 01:58:22PM -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:
> > Unless you've got a time machine or a team of coders in your back
> > pocket, I don't see how the planner will suddenly become perfect in
> > 8.4...
>
> Since you're not a core code contributor, I really don't see why you
> continue
On Fri, Oct 13, 2006 at 11:25:28AM -0400, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> Tom Lane wrote:
> > Martijn van Oosterhout writes:
> > > I would like a pedantic mode, but the method of activation is a tricky
> > > issue. You want it to be 'on' for normal users but 'off' for automatic
> > > build scripts.
> >
>
"Jim C. Nasby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I completely agree that it's much better *in the long run* to improve
> the planner and the statistics system so that we don't need hints. But
> there's been no plan put forward for how to do that, which means we also
> have no idea when some of these pr
On Fri, Oct 13, 2006 at 06:17:47PM +0530, NikhilS wrote:
> Currently a "select * from pg_statio_user_tables;" displays only
> heap_blks_read, heap_blks_hit stats amongst others for the main relation. It
> would be good to have the following stats collected too. I think these stats
> can be used to
Peter Eisentraut napsal(a):
Zdenek Kotala wrote:
+ The PostgreSQL 8.2 has implemented dtrace support. You can enable it by
+ the --enable-dtrace configure switch. If you want to compile a 64-bit code
+ with dtrace you must specify DTRACEFLAGS='-64', e.g.
This is contrary to the documentation
"Jim C. Nasby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> In the meantime, +1 to adding some whitespace around the warning... I'd
> suggest two blank lines before and after.
I don't really see that that would accomplish anything. The problem is
exactly that configure emits many many lines of output which no o
On Thu, 2006-10-12 at 23:12 -0400, Christopher Browne wrote:
> > No, I don't have any idea, except that it would be less push-back
> > than changing a language that's embedded in client code. Also, I see
> > no reason to think that a hint would not be obsolete upon a new
> > release anyway.
>
> I
Josh Berkus writes:
>> > I actually think the way to attack this issue is to discuss the kinds
>> > of errors the planner makes, and what tweaks we could do to correct
>> > them. Here's the ones I'm aware of:
>> >
>> > -- Incorrect selectivity of WHERE clause
>> > -- Incorrect selectivity of JOIN
On Thu, 2006-10-12 at 18:02 -0400, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> Bucky Jordan wrote:
>
> > What about using regular expressions, plus, if you have a function
> > (views, or any other statement that is stored), you can assign a rule to
> > that particular function. So you get matching, plus explicit sele
On Fri, Oct 13, 2006 at 12:45:23PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> "Jim C. Nasby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > In the meantime, +1 to adding some whitespace around the warning... I'd
> > suggest two blank lines before and after.
>
> I don't really see that that would accomplish anything. The problem
> -Original Message-
> From: Jeff Davis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 1:00 PM
> To: Alvaro Herrera
> Cc: Bucky Jordan; josh@agliodbs.com; Jim C. Nasby; pgsql-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [HACKERS] [PERFORM] Hints proposal
>
> On Thu, 2006-10-12 at 18:02
* Tom Lane ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> That's not really the flavor of solution I'd like to have. Ideally,
> it'd actually *work* to write
>
> my_ffunc(my_sfunc(my_sfunc(null, 1), 2))
>
> and get the same result as aggregating over the values 1 and 2. The
> trick is to make sure that my_
Stephen Frost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> That's not really the flavor of solution I'd like to have. Ideally,
>> it'd actually *work* to write
>> my_ffunc(my_sfunc(my_sfunc(null, 1), 2))
> In general I like this idea but there are some complications, the main
> one being where would the memory
* Tom Lane ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> Stephen Frost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > The other issue is, in the above scenario
> > is it acceptable to modify the result of my_sfunc(null, 1) in the ,2
> > call?
>
> Yes, because the only place a nonnull value of the type could have come
> from is a
Stephen Frost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>> Additionally, we'd have to be
>>> able to mark the types as being polymorhpic along the same lines as
>>> anyelement/anyarray.
>>
>> What for?
> So that the finalfunc can be polymorphic along the lines of my suggested
> aaccum_sfunc(anyarray,anyelement
On Fri, 2006-10-13 at 13:08 -0400, Bucky Jordan wrote:
> > It sounds horrible to me too, and I'm the one that thought of it (or
> at
> > least I'm the one that introduced it to this thread).
> >
> > However, everything is relative. Since the other idea floating around
> is
> > to put the same hint
"Jim C. Nasby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Hrm... I don't suppose there's a way to capture the critical warnings in
> a temporary file and then cat that at the end? (I'm assuming that it'll
> be nearly impossible to get a quite mode out of autoconf...)
Hmm ... maybe we could just rearrange the s
On Fri, Oct 13, 2006 at 10:23:31AM -0700, Jeff Davis wrote:
> Right. And I think the sane ideas are along the lines of estimate & cost
> corrections (like Tom is saying).
Let me ask this... how long do you (and others) want to wait for those?
It's great that the planner is continually improving, b
Jim C. Nasby wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 13, 2006 at 10:23:31AM -0700, Jeff Davis wrote:
>> Right. And I think the sane ideas are along the lines of estimate & cost
>> corrections (like Tom is saying).
>
> Let me ask this... how long do you (and others) want to wait for those?
> It's great that the plann
> I completely agree that it's much better *in the long run* to improve
> the planner and the statistics system so that we don't need hints. But
> there's been no plan put forward for how to do that, which means we
also
> have no idea when some of these problems will be resolved. If someone
> comes
On Fri, Oct 13, 2006 at 12:30:24PM -0500, Jim C. Nasby wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 13, 2006 at 10:23:31AM -0700, Jeff Davis wrote:
> > Right. And I think the sane ideas are along the lines of estimate
> > & cost corrections (like Tom is saying).
>
> Let me ask this... how long do you (and others) want to
On Fri, 2006-10-13 at 12:30 -0500, Jim C. Nasby wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 13, 2006 at 10:23:31AM -0700, Jeff Davis wrote:
> > Right. And I think the sane ideas are along the lines of estimate & cost
> > corrections (like Tom is saying).
>
> Let me ask this... how long do you (and others) want to wait f
Joshua D. Drake wrote:
Jim C. Nasby wrote:
On Fri, Oct 13, 2006 at 10:23:31AM -0700, Jeff Davis wrote:
Right. And I think the sane ideas are along the lines of estimate & cost
corrections (like Tom is saying).
Let me ask this... how long do you (and others) want to wait for thos
Jim C. Nasby wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 13, 2006 at 10:23:31AM -0700, Jeff Davis wrote:
>> Right. And I think the sane ideas are along the lines of estimate & cost
>> corrections (like Tom is saying).
>
> Let me ask this... how long do you (and others) want to wait for those?
well - we waited and got o
Tom Lane wrote:
> Not sure what to do about that --- I doubt that raising this warning
> to error would be a good idea, seeing how firmly the upstream
> developers believe it shouldn't even be a warning. Is there any sort
> of "quiet mode" possible that would report only warnings? Would it
> be a
On Fri, Oct 13, 2006 at 08:40:42PM +0200, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Tom Lane wrote:
> > Not sure what to do about that --- I doubt that raising this warning
> > to error would be a good idea, seeing how firmly the upstream
> > developers believe it shouldn't even be a warning. Is there any sort
>
Moving to -hackers...
On Fri, Oct 13, 2006 at 03:07:50PM -0400, Andrew Dunstan wrote:
> Kai-Uwe Sattler wrote:
> >Hi,
> >here is a patch implementing an index recommendation advisor for
> >7.4.13. It consists of extensions to the planner and the catalog as
> >well as a command line tool pg_advis
Jim C. Nasby wrote:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/devel/pg82/pgsql$ ./configure --enable-foo --quiet
> > *** Option ignored: --enable-foo
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/devel/pg82/pgsql$
>
> Odd, I can't get that on a very recent checkout of HEAD:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:51]~/pgsql/HEAD:156%./configure
> --with-inc
On Fri, Oct 13, 2006 at 09:36:14PM +0200, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Jim C. Nasby wrote:
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/devel/pg82/pgsql$ ./configure --enable-foo --quiet
> > > *** Option ignored: --enable-foo
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/devel/pg82/pgsql$
> >
> > Odd, I can't get that on a very recent chec
I tried to use O_DIRECT on Linux (SuSe) Kernel 2.6, but failed to make it run.
For example, if I added the option in the "open" of BasicOpenFile(),
I got the following error after typing "psql -l",
psql: could not connect to server: Connection refused
Is the server running locally and acce
I'm evaluating of use postgresql but for local law requirements is
needed for the access of some kind of data (sensitive) a log of the
accesses (Auditing) is a feature available in many databases but i've
seen that lacks in PostgreSQL, there are already plans to implement it
or patches already s
On Fri, Oct 13, 2006 at 01:24:52PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> "Jim C. Nasby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Hrm... I don't suppose there's a way to capture the critical warnings in
> > a temporary file and then cat that at the end? (I'm assuming that it'll
> > be nearly impossible to get a quite mod
Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Yeah, it seems there are some portability problems with that code.
> I'm looking into it.
Fixed.
--
Peter Eisentraut
http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/
---(end of broadcast)---
TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive
Tom,
> We have also talked about solving the multi-column statistics problem
> (which, at its core, is "which combinations of columns are worth
> accumulating stats for?" --- you can't possibly store stats for every
> combination!) by having what would amount to hints from the DBA saying
> "keep s
Andrew Dunstan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Kai-Uwe Sattler wrote:
>> here is a patch implementing an index recommendation advisor for
>> 7.4.13.
> You know we don't put new features on stable branches, right?
I think you forgot the context --- somebody asked Kai-Uwe to send what
he had. There
Peter Eisentraut <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Tom Lane wrote:
>> ... Is there any sort
>> of "quiet mode" possible that would report only warnings?
> [ it's already there ]
So maybe we just ought to tweak the installation instructions to
recommend use of --quiet?
regards
Tom Lane wrote:
> Andrew Dunstan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Kai-Uwe Sattler wrote:
>>> here is a patch implementing an index recommendation advisor for
>>> 7.4.13.
>
>> You know we don't put new features on stable branches, right?
>
> I think you forgot the context --- somebody asked Kai-Uwe t
Jim,
> Well, that's not what I said (my point being that until the planner and
> stats are perfect you need a way to over-ride them)... but I've also
> never said hints would be faster or easier than stats modification (I
> said I hope they would).
Yes, you did. Repeatedly. On this and other th
Andreas,
> I think we need to more precisely define the problems of our system with
> point in time statistics
>
> -- no reaction to degree of other concurrent activity
> -- no way to react to abnormal skew that only persists for a very short
> duration
> -- too late reaction to changing distribut
Csaba,
> And upgrades are always causing breakage, I didn't have one upgrade
> without some things to fix, so I would expect people is expecting that.
> And that's true for Oracle too, our oracle guys always have something to
> fix after an upgrade. And I repeat, I always had something to fix for
On Fri, Oct 13, 2006 at 03:57:23PM -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Jim,
>
> > Well, that's not what I said (my point being that until the planner and
> > stats are perfect you need a way to over-ride them)... but I've also
> > never said hints would be faster or easier than stats modification (I
> > s
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:pgsql-general-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thomas Kellerer
> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 2:11 PM
> To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] more anti-postgresql FUD
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 11.10.2006 16:
Jim C. Nasby wrote:
> So, does anyone out there have a plan for how we could give user's the
> ability to control the planner at a per-table level in 8.3 or even 8.4?
Per-table level? Some of the problems that have been put forward have
to do with table combinations (for example selectivity of j
"Jim C. Nasby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Let me clarify, because that's not what I meant. Right now, there's not
> even a shadow of a design for anything else, and this is a tough nut to
> crack.
I think you are not exactly measuring on a level playing field. On the
textually-embedded-hints s
Hi Jim,
On 10/13/06, Jim C. Nasby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 13, 2006 at 06:17:47PM +0530, NikhilS wrote:> Currently a "select * from pg_statio_user_tables;" displays only
> heap_blks_read, heap_blks_hit stats amongst others for the main relation. It> would be good to have the following
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