Re: [HACKERS] Windows Build System - My final thoughts
Lamar Owen wrote: On Friday 31 January 2003 03:21, Bruce Momjian wrote: Man, I go away for one day, and look what you guys get into. :-) No duh. Whew. Lastly, SRA just released _today_ their first Win32 port of PostgreSQL, and it is _threaded_: http://osb.sra.co.jp/PowerGres/ Is there an English translation of the site so one who doesn't speak or write Japanese can try it out? Bruce, better be careful! If SRA hasn't done exzessive power-off and other crash testing, beware of the dogs :-) Jan -- #==# # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. # # Let's break this rule - forgive me. # #== [EMAIL PROTECTED] # ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] Windows Build System - My final thoughts
Lamar Owen wrote: On Friday 31 January 2003 03:21, Bruce Momjian wrote: Man, I go away for one day, and look what you guys get into. :-) No duh. Whew. Lastly, SRA just released _today_ their first Win32 port of PostgreSQL, and it is _threaded_: http://osb.sra.co.jp/PowerGres/ Is there an English translation of the site so one who doesn't speak or write Japanese can try it out? No, sorry. Tatsuo mentioned that. However, Babelfish will do the translation: http://world.altavista.com/ Put in the URL, and choose translate Japanese to English. -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] Windows Build System - My final thoughts
Jeff Davis wrote: As for build environment, we have two audiences --- those using binaries, and those compiling from source. Clearly we are going to have more binary users vs. source users on Win32 than on any other platform, so at this stage I think making thing easier for the majority of our Unix developers is the priority, meaning we should use our existing Makefiles and cygwin to compile. Later, if things warrant it, we can do VC++ project files somehow. I'm ignorant when it comes to build environments on windows, but I was under the impression that DJGPP was mostly a complete environment. Are there any plans to support it, or is it even possible? I don't think we want to throw our Unix folks into culture shock. Let's pick one build environment and go from there, either cygwin or something else. Once the patches are in, folks can test the various build options. -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] Windows Build System - My final thoughts
Justin Clift wrote: + Aside from all this, it might be nice to have a few Win32 specific gui pieces in place at the time that PostgreSQL 7.4 Win32 is released. Am sure they'll develop over time, but was thinking we should at least make a good impression with the first release. Hey, if we make a really bad impression with the first release, then there might not be the quadruple-zillion Windows PG users after all. If that sounds like a good idea, maybe adding the GUC variables random_query_delay (minutes), crash_how_often (seconds), and reboot_plus_corrupt_please (true/false)? What we need is for the backend to query postgresql.org to set those parameters, so we can control how many Win32 users adopt PostgreSQL. :-) -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] Windows Build System - My final thoughts
Bruce Momjian wrote: Justin Clift wrote: + Aside from all this, it might be nice to have a few Win32 specific gui pieces in place at the time that PostgreSQL 7.4 Win32 is released. Am sure they'll develop over time, but was thinking we should at least make a good impression with the first release. Hey, if we make a really bad impression with the first release, then there might not be the quadruple-zillion Windows PG users after all. If that sounds like a good idea, maybe adding the GUC variables random_query_delay (minutes), crash_how_often (seconds), and reboot_plus_corrupt_please (true/false)? What we need is for the backend to query postgresql.org to set those parameters, so we can control how many Win32 users adopt PostgreSQL. :-) All your [data] base belong to us ? ;-) Regards and best wishes, Justin Clift -- My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group; there was less competition there. - Indira Gandhi ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] Windows Build System - My final thoughts
-Original Message- From: Justin Clift [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 02 February 2003 15:01 To: Bruce Momjian Cc: Lamar Owen; PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Windows Build System - My final thoughts Hey, if we make a really bad impression with the first release, then there might not be the quadruple-zillion Windows PG users after all. If that sounds like a good idea, maybe adding the GUC variables random_query_delay (minutes), crash_how_often (seconds), and reboot_plus_corrupt_please (true/false)? What we need is for the backend to query postgresql.org to set those parameters, so we can control how many Win32 users adopt PostgreSQL. :-) All your [data] base belong to us ? I'll get working on some php code if we're happy to use http for the comms ;-) Regards, Dave. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] Windows Build System - My final thoughts
On Thu, 2003-01-30 at 16:01, Vince Vielhaber wrote: Dave, Lamar and Katie can cheer now 'cuze this is the last comment I'm going to make on this. All others will be ignored, probably. The one thing I haven't seen from Dave, Lamar or Katie on this is reputation. You're all for the PostgreSQL name going on it but I have yet to see any of you so sure of yourselves that you'd put your own name on it. The license allows it. Red Hat did it. I see no PageSQL or KatieSQL or even an Oh-Win SQL being offered up. Yet all three of you are advocating that the PostgreSQL stamp of approval should be immediately placed on it (ok, Lamar may not be as in favor as the Dave and Katie). Oh-win SQL! Man that was great :-) If only all of your posts were so witty... Without documented testing and sufficient warnings until enough history is banked, I don't think a native windows port should be given any kind of seal of approval. After that, what about keeping the code current? In a year or so will it suffer from bit-rot and be the source of complaints? Are there going to be security concerns surrounding it? Is there going to be a bunch of scrambling going on to put out a patch when the latest active-x bug hoses the data dir? We already support postgresql on cygwin, and we know that's crap. Having a native emulation can only improve that situation, so I don't see any reason not to move in that direction. All of this stamp of approval talk is really pointless at this juncture; no matter how much testing has been done, none of it means a lick until the code is integrated into the 7.4 branch. In the mean time, if some of the unix oriented guys want to devise a suggested test plan that can be used to determine if we are going to call the native windows support production grade or merely a vast improvement over the cygwin developers version, well I bet the windows folks would appreciate that. Even more so if someone runs those tests against a linux box so that we have actual statistics to compare against. Robert Treat ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
Re: [HACKERS] Windows Build System - My final thoughts
-Original Message-
From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 12:21 AM
To: Lamar Owen
Cc: PostgreSQL-development
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Windows Build System - My final thoughts
Man, I go away for one day, and look what you guys get into. :-)
Let me shoot out some comments on this.
First, clearly the Win32 port is going to have more
port-specific code paths than any other port, so it is going
to require extra testing even if it wasn't our first non-Unix
port. You can expect it to take some extra effort even after
the port has stabalized because when we add something that
works only on Unix, we will need to code some workaround in Win32.
No question. We had to customize the following files:
backend\access\transam\xlog.c
backend\catalog\aclchk.c
backend\commands\command.c
backend\commands\comment.c
backend\commands\copy.c
backend\commands\creatinh.c
backend\commands\dbcommands.c
backend\commands\define.c
backend\commands\rename.c
backend\commands\user.c
backend\customize\timelib\zic.c
backend\lib\dllist.c
backend\libpq\hba.c
backend\libpq\pqcomm.c
backend\main\main.c
backend\postmaster\pgstat.c
backend\postmaster\postmaster.c
backend\storage\file\fd.c
backend\storage\ipc\ipc.c
backend\storage\smgr\md.c
backend\tcop\utility.c
backend\utils\adt\acl.c
backend\utils\adt\nabstime.c
backend\utils\error\elog.c
backend\utils\fmgr\dfmgr.c
backend\utils\init\findbe.c
backend\utils\init\miscinit.c
backend\utils\misc\guc-file.c
backend\utils\misc\guc.c
backend\utils\misc\superuser.c
bin\pg_dump\common.c
bin\psql\common.c
bin\psql\print.c
bin\psql\startup.c
interfaces\ecpg\preproc\ecpg.c
interfaces\libpgeasy\halt.c
Before each customization, we put:
#ifdef ICKY_WIN32_KLUDGE
{icky fix goes here
#else
{UNIX code goes here}
#endif
Second, there are going to be new error cases on this
platform that we can't anticipate, and some of that isn't
going to show until we get it released. Documenting those
pitfalls, like only using NTFS, is a good start.
It works on FAT32, but you don't have security.
Third, I suspect folks running Win32 aren't as particular
about stability/reliability, or they would have left MS
products already.
Typical Anti-MS rhetoric. That's right. The companies with billions of
dollars at stake don't care about stability or reliability. In fact,
they are stupid. They are using MS products after all. Or (perhaps)
they really are concerned about things like that.
Fourth, some say Win32 isn't an acceptable platform. It may
or may not be for specific people, but Linux may be an
unacceptable platform for some people too. I don't think we
can second guess the users. We will do our best and see how it goes.
Most of the machines in the world run Win32. That's a fact. That may
not be the ideal world, but that's reality.
Also, I have heard from several people that XP is the first
OS MS got right. That may or may not be true, but some feel
things are getting better. It is all a continuim with these
OS's. Some are great, some mediocre, some really bad, but
people make decisions and choose bad ones all the time.
PostgreSQL just needs to be there, if only to migrate them to
a better platform later. If we aren't there, we can't show
them how good we are.
I despise:
Windows 95 (bad)
Windows 98 (bad)
WinME (worst of all) is a bletcherous, buggy hack and not suitable for
any use. It should never have been released.
But I like:
Windows NT
Windows 2000
Windows XP
All are reliable and easy to use.
As for build environment, we have two audiences --- those
using binaries, and those compiling from source. Clearly we
are going to have more binary users vs. source users on Win32
than on any other platform, so at this stage I think making
thing easier for the majority of our Unix developers is the
priority, meaning we should use our existing Makefiles and
cygwin to compile. Later, if things warrant it, we can do
VC++ project files somehow.
MINGW does not require royalties like Cygwin does and emulates the
Windows environments. Perhaps a single, consistent build environment
can be created using MINGW as a basis for Win32 platforms.
Lastly, SRA just released _today_ their first Win32 port of
PostgreSQL, and it is _threaded_:
http://osb.sra.co.jp/PowerGres/
Now, that's a port!
Soulds like it is possible to do then.
Also, when I am back home for an extended period starting in March,
I will going through Jan's patch (if no one does it first) and
submit/apply it in pieces that address specific Win32 issues,
like path names or carriage returns. Once those are in, we can
look at the more complex issues of build handling.
I will be willing to help on the Win32 port
So, as far as I am concerned, we will have a Win32 port in 7.4.
It will not be perfect, but it will be as good as we can do.
We are also getting point-in-time recovery in 7.4, so that may
Re: [HACKERS] Windows Build System - My final thoughts
As for build environment, we have two audiences --- those using binaries, and those compiling from source. Clearly we are going to have more binary users vs. source users on Win32 than on any other platform, so at this stage I think making thing easier for the majority of our Unix developers is the priority, meaning we should use our existing Makefiles and cygwin to compile. Later, if things warrant it, we can do VC++ project files somehow. I'm ignorant when it comes to build environments on windows, but I was under the impression that DJGPP was mostly a complete environment. Are there any plans to support it, or is it even possible? So, as far as I am concerned, we will have a Win32 port in 7.4. It will not be perfect, but it will be as good as we can do. We are also getting point-in-time recovery in 7.4, so that may help us with Win32 port failures too. Interesting consolation :) Regards, Jeff Davis ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] Windows Build System - My final thoughts
Man, I go away for one day, and look what you guys get into. :-) Let me shoot out some comments on this. First, clearly the Win32 port is going to have more port-specific code paths than any other port, so it is going to require extra testing even if it wasn't our first non-Unix port. You can expect it to take some extra effort even after the port has stabalized because when we add something that works only on Unix, we will need to code some workaround in Win32. Second, there are going to be new error cases on this platform that we can't anticipate, and some of that isn't going to show until we get it released. Documenting those pitfalls, like only using NTFS, is a good start. Third, I suspect folks running Win32 aren't as particular about stability/reliability, or they would have left MS products already. Fourth, some say Win32 isn't an acceptable platform. It may or may not be for specific people, but Linux may be an unacceptable platform for some people too. I don't think we can second guess the users. We will do our best and see how it goes. Also, I have heard from several people that XP is the first OS MS got right. That may or may not be true, but some feel things are getting better. It is all a continuim with these OS's. Some are great, some mediocre, some really bad, but people make decisions and choose bad ones all the time. PostgreSQL just needs to be there, if only to migrate them to a better platform later. If we aren't there, we can't show them how good we are. As for build environment, we have two audiences --- those using binaries, and those compiling from source. Clearly we are going to have more binary users vs. source users on Win32 than on any other platform, so at this stage I think making thing easier for the majority of our Unix developers is the priority, meaning we should use our existing Makefiles and cygwin to compile. Later, if things warrant it, we can do VC++ project files somehow. Lastly, SRA just released _today_ their first Win32 port of PostgreSQL, and it is _threaded_: http://osb.sra.co.jp/PowerGres/ Now, that's a port! Also, when I am back home for an extended period starting in March, I will going through Jan's patch (if no one does it first) and submit/apply it in pieces that address specific Win32 issues, like path names or carriage returns. Once those are in, we can look at the more complex issues of build handling. So, as far as I am concerned, we will have a Win32 port in 7.4. It will not be perfect, but it will be as good as we can do. We are also getting point-in-time recovery in 7.4, so that may help us with Win32 port failures too. -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
Re: [HACKERS] Windows Build System - My final thoughts
On Friday 31 January 2003 03:21, Bruce Momjian wrote: Man, I go away for one day, and look what you guys get into. :-) No duh. Whew. Lastly, SRA just released _today_ their first Win32 port of PostgreSQL, and it is _threaded_: http://osb.sra.co.jp/PowerGres/ Is there an English translation of the site so one who doesn't speak or write Japanese can try it out? -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] Windows Build System - My final thoughts
Bruce Momjian wrote: snip So, as far as I am concerned, we will have a Win32 port in 7.4. It will not be perfect, but it will be as good as we can do. We are also getting point-in-time recovery in 7.4, so that may help us with Win32 port failures too. If anyone's interested, the PostgreSQL 7.3.1 Proof of Concept for Windows Alpha 1 (yes the warnings are even built into the name) easy-installer that I whipped up using Inno Setup was quietly uploaded to the pgsql project on Sourceforge the other night. It's using PostgreSQL + cygwin, pretty much stock standard but pre-installed and wrapped up into a single installable. As an indicater, having made no release annoucement, and only having put a one paragraph small mention with a link to it on the Techdocs Installing On Windows page (with warnings), over 1,600 people downloaded it in the first 24 hours (that's about 17.1 GB of bandwidth). This was just a version so that I could practise some windows packaging and see what kind of things we'd need to address. Dave has already pointed out that we're probably going to need to do this so it can be made into a Merge Module and other things. A couple of bits of interest turned up whilst packaging: + There are unix command line tools that PostgreSQL relies on. For example, when running initdb, it errors out if some tools aren't present. i.e. sed, grep, ash (cygwin's /bin/sh), and from memory a few others + GPL licensing issues. Am trying to get my head around the implications - with regards to licensing - if we released a proper version with some of the cygwin tools included... i.e. grep, sed, etc. Don't think that places could use it embedded with their products and not at least have source available, but still haven't totally grokked this all completely yet. Not going to commit any code to the GBorg project that was setup the other day until this is sorted out. PostgreSQL 7.4 on Win32 should be properly BSD too. + Aside from all this, it might be nice to have a few Win32 specific gui pieces in place at the time that PostgreSQL 7.4 Win32 is released. Am sure they'll develop over time, but was thinking we should at least make a good impression with the first release. Hey, if we make a really bad impression with the first release, then there might not be the quadruple-zillion Windows PG users after all. If that sounds like a good idea, maybe adding the GUC variables random_query_delay (minutes), crash_how_often (seconds), and reboot_plus_corrupt_please (true/false)? Regards and best wishes, Justin Clift -- My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group; there was less competition there. - Indira Gandhi ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HACKERS] Windows Build System - My final thoughts
Vince Vielhaber [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Without documented testing and sufficient warnings until enough history is banked, I don't think a native windows port should be given any kind of seal of approval. That was my last point also: we have years of track record on most of our Unix ports, and none yet on Windows. Even several months of intensive testing by a small number of people will hardly level the playing field. After that, what about keeping the code current? I don't think that's an issue. We are not blessing anything based on 7.2 ;-). The objective is to merge the changes into CVS tip and have a first official Windows port as part of the 7.4 release. After that, it'll stay as current as any other port that's being actively used. regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] Windows Build System - My final thoughts
On Thursday 30 January 2003 16:01, Vince Vielhaber wrote: Dave, Lamar and Katie can cheer now 'cuze this is the last comment I'm going to make on this. All others will be ignored, probably. up. Yet all three of you are advocating that the PostgreSQL stamp of approval should be immediately placed on it (ok, Lamar may not be as in favor as the Dave and Katie). For the record, again, I am not at all in favor of a Win32 native port. I have never been in favor of a Win32 native port (see the archives -- it's in there). I am in favor of fair testing for all ports, and less of an emotional response to the idea of a Win32 port. It's going to happen; we can't stop it; we might as well see how best to handle it. And I am definitely not in favor of putting the Royal Seal of PGDG on the code that is out there now. It _isn't_ proven. And, as Tom just said, it's 7.2, and we're not due to make an Officially Stamped Win32 native port until 7.4. But it doesn't take AC power cycling to prove it, either. And so I objected to the tone and to the extremity of the proposed testing, relative to the testing we do now for the other ports. But I also see the futility of withholding the Official Stamp of Approval -- if Win32 PostgreSQL is out there (and it will be, whether we like it or not), then we will get flak over it if it breaks. Logically we should do everything we can to make sure the port is as stable as possible for Win32 -- and power cycle testing ain't the right way. ISTM that Dave, Katie, Jan, et all are doing this. They even seem to know what they are talking about, which is better than most Win32 partisans. There actually _can_ be reasonable people who use an unreasonable OS, for whatever reasons they may have. Do I like it? No. Can I change it? No. Can I help test the Win32 port? Yes, even though I don't want to do so. Can I be reasonable and patient with those who are doing the work on the Win32 port? Yes, I can. Do I need to sling the napalm because I don't like it? Not on the mailing lists (hmm, need to get some naptha, some palmitic acidmight be fun to sling some napalm in the back yard to rid the place of weeds, and get some relaxation to boot). -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] Windows Build System - My final thoughts
Dave, Lamar and Katie can cheer now 'cuze this is the last comment I'm going to make on this. All others will be ignored, probably. The one thing I haven't seen from Dave, Lamar or Katie on this is reputation. You're all for the PostgreSQL name going on it but I have yet to see any of you so sure of yourselves that you'd put your own name on it. The license allows it. Red Hat did it. I see no PageSQL or KatieSQL or even an Oh-Win SQL being offered up. Yet all three of you are advocating that the PostgreSQL stamp of approval should be immediately placed on it (ok, Lamar may not be as in favor as the Dave and Katie). Without documented testing and sufficient warnings until enough history is banked, I don't think a native windows port should be given any kind of seal of approval. After that, what about keeping the code current? In a year or so will it suffer from bit-rot and be the source of complaints? Are there going to be security concerns surrounding it? Is there going to be a bunch of scrambling going on to put out a patch when the latest active-x bug hoses the data dir? Vince. -- Fast, inexpensive internet service 56k and beyond! http://www.pop4.net/ http://www.meanstreamradio.com http://www.unknown-artists.com Internet radio: It's not file sharing, it's just radio. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
