Re: [HACKERS] bugzilla (Was: What do you want me to do?)
Andrew Dunstan writes: Seriously, I have wondered if it might be a good idea to assemble a small hit team that would take some high profile open source projects and make sure they worked with Postgres. Bugzilla would be the most obvious candidate, but there are certainly others. I suspect that could be quite productive, though. Good thought, but a hit team is not the right answer, because any project that would have been hit in this way will just go bad again the moment its database layer is changed. What would work better are consultants: people that hang around on the other project's mailing lists, offer advise on database layer modelling and implementation, do clean up tasks, check regularly if everything works with the PG development branch, be there when the developers of that other project have a question. I've been doing a bit of that, and my sensation is that most developers of database-backed applications are dying to have people like that at their disposal. -- Peter Eisentraut [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] bugzilla (Was: What do you want me to do?)
On Tuesday 11 November 2003 19:19, Peter Eisentraut wrote: Andrew Dunstan writes: Seriously, I have wondered if it might be a good idea to assemble a small hit team that would take some high profile open source projects and make sure they worked with Postgres. Bugzilla would be the most obvious candidate, but there are certainly others. I suspect that could be quite productive, though. Good thought, but a hit team is not the right answer, because any project that would have been hit in this way will just go bad again the moment its database layer is changed. What would work better are consultants: people that hang around on the other project's mailing lists, offer advise on database layer modelling and implementation, do clean up tasks, check regularly if everything works with the PG development branch, be there when the developers of that other project have a question. I've been doing a bit of that, and my sensation is that most developers of database-backed applications are dying to have people like that at their disposal. So forming a new group is quite beneficial? I think so too.. I have been planning to do that for dbmail and egroupware but haven't got around it.. Shridhar ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] bugzilla (Was: What do you want me to do?)
Shridhar Daithankar writes: So forming a new group is quite beneficial? No, we don't need one group, we need many individuals (or possibly small groups) to get in contact with their second favorite projects and hang out there. I think so too.. I have been planning to do that for dbmail and egroupware but haven't got around it.. When I said I've been doing a bit of that, I meant the developers of eGroupWare call me once a week with questions. So maybe you can take over dbmail. :-) -- Peter Eisentraut [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] bugzilla (Was: What do you want me to do?)
Peter Eisentraut wrote: Andrew Dunstan writes: Seriously, I have wondered if it might be a good idea to assemble a small hit team that would take some high profile open source projects and make sure they worked with Postgres. Bugzilla would be the most obvious candidate, but there are certainly others. I suspect that could be quite productive, though. Good thought, but a hit team is not the right answer, because any project that would have been hit in this way will just go bad again the moment its database layer is changed. What would work better are consultants: people that hang around on the other project's mailing lists, offer advise on database layer modelling and implementation, do clean up tasks, check regularly if everything works with the PG development branch, be there when the developers of that other project have a question. I've been doing a bit of that, and my sensation is that most developers of database-backed applications are dying to have people like that at their disposal. Well, I didn't mean hit and run team ;-). I take your point, though. However, some projects will need a big effort up front - Bugzilla certainly will. I am doing some work on it but any help will be appreciated. Part of the problem is that there is no layering of the app, separating out the logical and physical views. So instead of a nice procedural layer where one could concentrate the creation of Db-specific SQL, it is littered throughout the app. Some of the issues include: . efficient replacement of the enumerated types . transactional safety . properly replacing the calles to replace into . full text searching . migration scripts As you can see, doing it properly is quite a big job. However, I also think that there is value in identifying those projects that will give the best bang for the buck for our project, and then trying to concentrate some resources on those. Your suggestion elsewhere of pick your second favourite app is likely to result in a more scattergun approach. Also, if it had the imprimatur of the PostgreSQL community to some extent appraoches to projects might be more welcome - Dear open-source-project-manager, on behalf of the PostgrSQL community we would like to offer you assistance in making sure your application works with PostgrSQL, the world's most advanced open-source database system cheers andrew ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] bugzilla (Was: What do you want me to do?)
Peter Eisentraut wrote: Shridhar Daithankar writes: So forming a new group is quite beneficial? No, we don't need one group, we need many individuals (or possibly small groups) to get in contact with their second favorite projects and hang out there. I meant lets form a group within advocacy which would consult other projects. Since we would expect people to encounter similar kind of problem, a group within advocacy/general might be a good idea. Of course we need not do anything special till we have sizable projets being consulted. Can we at least have a web page for projects that use/prefer postgresql. I think I put ahead such idea of cross linking earlier as well. I think so too.. I have been planning to do that for dbmail and egroupware but haven't got around it.. When I said I've been doing a bit of that, I meant the developers of eGroupWare call me once a week with questions. So maybe you can take over dbmail. :-) Sure. Check this. --- Hello, My name is and I work with postgresql group. Recently we/postgresql advocay/general group have decided to form a group of people who would help other projects w.r.t postgresql. So feel free to ask me questions. I can help you to put yor questions to appropriate forums/persons effectively. Regards --- Sounds good? Or too aggressive? Bye Shridhar ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] bugzilla (Was: What do you want me to do?)
On Tue, 2003-11-11 at 09:42, Shridhar Daithankar wrote: Peter Eisentraut wrote: Shridhar Daithankar writes: I think so too.. I have been planning to do that for dbmail and egroupware but haven't got around it.. When I said I've been doing a bit of that, I meant the developers of eGroupWare call me once a week with questions. So maybe you can take over dbmail. :-) I'm already on the dbmail lists, and have been providing pro-postgresql feedback and testing to them for a while. But the more the merrier. Sure. Check this. --- Hello, My name is and I work with postgresql group. Recently we/postgresql advocay/general group have decided to form a group of people who would help other projects w.r.t postgresql. So feel free to ask me questions. I can help you to put yor questions to appropriate forums/persons effectively. Not sure we need to be this formal. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] bugzilla (Was: What do you want me to do?)
Andrew Dunstan writes: Your suggestion elsewhere of pick your second favourite app is likely to result in a more scattergun approach. Also, if it had the imprimatur of the PostgreSQL community to some extent appraoches to projects might be more welcome - Dear open-source-project-manager, on behalf of the PostgrSQL community we would like to offer you assistance in making sure your application works with PostgrSQL, the world's most advanced open-source database system The only way someone is going to get work done on a sustained basis is if he's got a personal interest, the so-called itch. You're not going to achieve anything, except possibly being ridiculed, if you start sending out form letters on behalf of the PostgreSQL community. If people already support PostgreSQL to some extent, go there and test it and send in patches with improvements. If people don't support PostgreSQL yet, get a good sense for what the feeling of the project maintainers toward database abstraction layers is, then throw out a design plan. But the key is to show results, not intentions. That is how open-source development works. -- Peter Eisentraut [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] bugzilla (Was: What do you want me to do?)
Peter Eisentraut wrote: Andrew Dunstan writes: Your suggestion elsewhere of pick your second favourite app is likely to result in a more scattergun approach. Also, if it had the imprimatur of the PostgreSQL community to some extent appraoches to projects might be more welcome - Dear open-source-project-manager, on behalf of the PostgrSQL community we would like to offer you assistance in making sure your application works with PostgrSQL, the world's most advanced open-source database system The only way someone is going to get work done on a sustained basis is if he's got a personal interest, the so-called itch. You're not going to achieve anything, except possibly being ridiculed, if you start sending out form letters on behalf of the PostgreSQL community. If people already support PostgreSQL to some extent, go there and test it and send in patches with improvements. If people don't support PostgreSQL yet, get a good sense for what the feeling of the project maintainers toward database abstraction layers is, then throw out a design plan. But the key is to show results, not intentions. That is how open-source development works. *shrug* I'm not sending out anything. OpenSource works in lots of different ways, in my experience. Some projects welcome all comers, some are very exclusive, for example. Anyway, in relation to bugzilla, I am working on stuff to submit to them, so I won't be faced with show me the code challenges. I nearly have a db-independant table creation module ready, but that will be just a start. cheers andrew ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] bugzilla (Was: What do you want me to do?)
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Shridhar Daithankar wrote: --- Hello, My name is and I work with postgresql group. Recently we/postgresql advocay/general group have decided to form a group of people who would help other projects w.r.t postgresql. So feel free to ask me questions. I can help you to put yor questions to appropriate forums/persons effectively. Regards --- Sounds good? Or too aggressive? Why not just submit appropriate patches? *raised eyebrow* ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] bugzilla (Was: What do you want me to do?)
Marc G. Fournier wrote: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Shridhar Daithankar wrote: --- Hello, My name is and I work with postgresql group. Recently we/postgresql advocay/general group have decided to form a group of people who would help other projects w.r.t postgresql. So feel free to ask me questions. I can help you to put yor questions to appropriate forums/persons effectively. Regards --- Sounds good? Or too aggressive? Why not just submit appropriate patches? *raised eyebrow* As I understood Shridhar and the others, these foreign list lurkers are not necessarily those who can answer the questions or fix either PostgreSQL or the other system, but more human watchdogs who bark when there is some need for community interaction. Jan -- #==# # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. # # Let's break this rule - forgive me. # #== [EMAIL PROTECTED] # ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] bugzilla (Was: What do you want me to do?)
Seriously, I have wondered if it might be a good idea to assemble a small hit team that would take some high profile open source projects and make sure they worked with Postgres. Bugzilla would be the most obvious candidate, but there are certainly others. I suspect that could be quite productive, though. Thoughts? Count me out - I spend way too much of my time working on phpPgAdmin as it is :) Chris ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] bugzilla (Was: What do you want me to do?)
On Sun, Nov 09, 2003 at 04:12:50PM +0800, Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote: Seriously, I have wondered if it might be a good idea to assemble a small hit team that would take some high profile open source projects and make sure they worked with Postgres. Bugzilla would be the most obvious candidate, but there are certainly others. I suspect that could be quite productive, though. Count me out - I spend way too much of my time working on phpPgAdmin as it is :) Count me out too. I already ported MagicPoint to work well with Postgres, and I'm a little overwhelmed already to do anything else. err... so, how does MagicPoint use Postgres? I suppose it's only because some of us use it to give Postgres talks and such ;-) -- Alvaro Herrera (alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl) On the other flipper, one wrong move and we're Fatal Exceptions (T.U.X.: Term Unit X - http://www.thelinuxreview.com/TUX/) ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] bugzilla (Was: What do you want me to do?)
Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote: The doesn't quite make the best use of PG quote is one of the best examples of buck-passing I've seen in awhile. If Bugzilla had been designed with some thought to DB independence to start with, we'd not be having this discussion. You have to laugh at an app that actually uses MySQL's replication to get around not having row locks!!! And it actually has a sanity check feature for 'checking' your referential integrity. I laughed so hard I cried. And yet we use it at work :P Bugzilla was put together by a guy who admitted he didn't know much about databases, IIRC. It worked and he was in a hurry. This is a classic story of a piece of software that is far more long lasting and far more dirty than was originally intended - I have seen it before many times and I expect to see it until I die. I could tell many similar stories that would make you laugh/cry even harder, but this isn't the place or time :-) Seriously, I have wondered if it might be a good idea to assemble a small hit team that would take some high profile open source projects and make sure they worked with Postgres. Bugzilla would be the most obvious candidate, but there are certainly others. I suspect that could be quite productive, though. Thoughts? andrew ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] bugzilla (Was: What do you want me to do?)
Tom Lane wrote: Andrew Dunstan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bugzilla is far from perfect. But it's getting better. FWIW, I would like to try a bugzilla-based tracking system for Postgres. Our last attempt at a tracking system failed miserably, but I think that was (a) because the software we tried was really unpolished, and (b) because we let anybody and his pet chihuahua enter bug reports, so the signal-to-noise ratio went to zero in no time. As long as we can restrict data entry to people who know what they're doing (not necessarily developers, but people who know PG well enough to tell bug from user error), I think it could work, and would beat the heck out of the way we do things now. . if we used bugzilla this might give some impetus to the bugzilla team's efforts to provide pg as a backend (maybe we could help with that) Red Hat has been using a PG-based version of bugzilla for some time. I'm not sure what the holdup is in getting that work merged back upstream, but I'd sure like to see it happen. Anyway we could start with using their version, rather than suffer the ignominy of using That Other Database to track our own bug reports ;-) The status of this can be seen at: http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98304 This item is listed on their Master Plan page at http://www.mozilla.org/projects/bugzilla/roadmap.html as being in the category Things we want in 2.18 but will get pushed to 2.20 if they're not completed by the time everything in the above list. I'd hate that to happen. The last comment on the bug page says: The Red Hat guys did a quick 'n dirty port. It works, but doesn't quite make use of the best of PostgreSQL. Also, their tarball is out of date with the current schema used by Bugzilla. My experience is that migrating to new versions of bugzilla is a major pain, so I'd hate to start out with something we suspect we would have to throw away later. The bug is actually assigned to David Lawrence at RedHat - maybe you'd like to get some status from him? :-) . are there any active developers without web access? If not, why is pure email interaction important? Bugzilla already does email output (ie, notify you of changes to bug entries you're interested in) well enough. We thought during the last go-round that it was important to have email input so we could allow mail to pgsql-bugs to go directly into the tracking system, but in hindsight that was a really bad idea. What we could use instead is for someone knowledgeable to commit to transferring *valid* emailed bug reports into the tracking system. Bruce could do that if he wants, but there are surely dozens of other people who would be qualified to handle this task. Actually, whatever software we pick to run the tracking system, my guess is that the experiment will not stand or fall on the software. What we need for success is one or two people who will take responsibility for housekeeping: putting in valid reports, spotting duplicate reports and doing the right cleanup, etc. Do we have any volunteers for that sort of thing? All good points. Bug triage is critical to success in my experience. You can take the suggested approach of trying to rule them out before they get into the system, or be aggressive about triage when they do get there - I've seen both work. RedHat allows anybody (with or without pooch) to sign up for an account and enter bugs, and I've had good responses myself from them for bugs I've filed. There is a certain niceness and openness about doing things that way, and I'm not sure the triage effort is any greater. Your housekeeper looks at today's list and either rules something not a bug or assigns it. For emailed bugs I agree doing triage before they get into the system makes sense. And, since I have argued for it I guess I should volunteer to help, although my knowledge of pg internals is still on the steep part of the learning curve. cheers andrew ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] bugzilla (Was: What do you want me to do?)
Andrew Dunstan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The last comment on the bug page says: The Red Hat guys did a quick 'n dirty port. It works, but doesn't quite make use of the best of PostgreSQL. Also, their tarball is out of date with the current schema used by Bugzilla. The bug is actually assigned to David Lawrence at RedHat - maybe you'd like to get some status from him? :-) Dave is the guy who did the aforementioned quick-n-dirty port. AFAIK he doesn't really have time to do the wholesale redesign that the Bugzilla developers have decided they need to have any database independence. The doesn't quite make the best use of PG quote is one of the best examples of buck-passing I've seen in awhile. If Bugzilla had been designed with some thought to DB independence to start with, we'd not be having this discussion. regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] bugzilla (Was: What do you want me to do?)
The doesn't quite make the best use of PG quote is one of the best examples of buck-passing I've seen in awhile. If Bugzilla had been designed with some thought to DB independence to start with, we'd not be having this discussion. You have to laugh at an app that actually uses MySQL's replication to get around not having row locks!!! And it actually has a sanity check feature for 'checking' your referential integrity. I laughed so hard I cried. And yet we use it at work :P Chris ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
