Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: #21659 [Com]: sprintf
On January 15, 2003 10:14 am, Adam Wright wrote: Agreed in general. And whilst I'm here can I throw in my 2c about Bogus? Although an accurate description, it's hardly likely to be perceived as friendly. If you've taken the time to report a bug, even if you are in error, having it thrown back as Bogus seems pretty mean. How about a less antagonistic wording? I'd put forward something like NotaBug, which gives the same information without putting people's backs up. NotaBug or similar may lead to confusion. Quite often the issue may indeed be a bug, however it is not a bug in PHP and is therefor bogus. By marking such a bug report NotaBug may lead to confusion. IMO bogus is a fairly accurate representation of what the 'bogus' bug reports are, it is no more or less friendly then other bug status and is only a problem (less 'friendly') if you choose to make it such. Ilia -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: #21659 [Com]: sprintf
On Wed, 15 Jan 2003, Ilia A. wrote: On January 15, 2003 10:14 am, Adam Wright wrote: Agreed in general. And whilst I'm here can I throw in my 2c about Bogus? Although an accurate description, it's hardly likely to be perceived as friendly. If you've taken the time to report a bug, even if you are in error, having it thrown back as Bogus seems pretty mean. How about a less antagonistic wording? I'd put forward something like NotaBug, which gives the same information without putting people's backs up. NotaBug or similar may lead to confusion. Quite often the issue may indeed be a bug, however it is not a bug in PHP and is therefor bogus. By marking such a bug report NotaBug may lead to confusion. IMO bogus is a fairly accurate representation of what the 'bogus' bug reports are, it is no more or less friendly then other bug status and is only a problem (less 'friendly') if you choose to make it such. +1 on on that, but I do think that when a bug is set to bogus the reason why it is bogus should always be noted. Derick -- - Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl/ PHP Magazine - PHP Magazine for Professionals http://php-mag.net/ - -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: #21659 [Com]: sprintf
Last ditch effort of NotAPHPBug? ;) adamw - Original Message - From: Derick Rethans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ilia A. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Adam Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 3:21 PM Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: #21659 [Com]: sprintf On Wed, 15 Jan 2003, Ilia A. wrote: On January 15, 2003 10:14 am, Adam Wright wrote: Agreed in general. And whilst I'm here can I throw in my 2c about Bogus? Although an accurate description, it's hardly likely to be perceived as friendly. If you've taken the time to report a bug, even if you are in error, having it thrown back as Bogus seems pretty mean. How about a less antagonistic wording? I'd put forward something like NotaBug, which gives the same information without putting people's backs up. NotaBug or similar may lead to confusion. Quite often the issue may indeed be a bug, however it is not a bug in PHP and is therefor bogus. By marking such a bug report NotaBug may lead to confusion. IMO bogus is a fairly accurate representation of what the 'bogus' bug reports are, it is no more or less friendly then other bug status and is only a problem (less 'friendly') if you choose to make it such. +1 on on that, but I do think that when a bug is set to bogus the reason why it is bogus should always be noted. Derick -- - Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl/ PHP Magazine - PHP Magazine for Professionals http://php-mag.net/ - -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: #21659 [Com]: sprintf
On January 15, 2003 10:27 am, Adam Wright wrote: Last ditch effort of NotAPHPBug? ;) This too may not be a correct solution all the time. Consider 75th duplicate report of an invalid or even a resolved bug report. It may have been a bug at some point, but certainly is not anymore. It is bogus, because the user chose not to search in the bug database for similar reports before posting their report. Surely you can agree that such a report is bogus. I suppose we could introduce a dozen different more 'friendly' statuses to replace the existing bogus status, but why? Surely not for the purpose of making users who don't do the necessary research before posting their bug reports feel better about themselves. Ilia -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: #21659 [Com]: sprintf
Agreed, on second thoughts those weren't terribly great example choices. I'm just coming from the point of view that you're generally better off not alienating someone for posting a bug before they've had their caffeine injection as they may in the future discover a legitimate bug which would be usefully reported. I certainly agree that the report is Bogus, it's just the terminology I was questioning. I suppose it's a culture thing, but the bogus status sounds rather harsh/rude to me (from the UK) even though I know its never (generally ;) intended to be. Even something like Invalid sounds better. Guess it's just a personal preference. I'll go back to my lurking now :) adamw - Original Message - From: Ilia A. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Adam Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 3:39 PM Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: #21659 [Com]: sprintf On January 15, 2003 10:27 am, Adam Wright wrote: Last ditch effort of NotAPHPBug? ;) This too may not be a correct solution all the time. Consider 75th duplicate report of an invalid or even a resolved bug report. It may have been a bug at some point, but certainly is not anymore. It is bogus, because the user chose not to search in the bug database for similar reports before posting their report. Surely you can agree that such a report is bogus. I suppose we could introduce a dozen different more 'friendly' statuses to replace the existing bogus status, but why? Surely not for the purpose of making users who don't do the necessary research before posting their bug reports feel better about themselves. Ilia -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] Re: #21659 [Com]: sprintf
+1 on on that, but I do think that when a bug is set to bogus the reason why it is bogus should always be noted. While on that topic, I had a bug recently set to bogus because it was reported against 4.2.3 while 4.3.0 was out. More than once in the bug reporting info there is a comment something like: Every time a new version of PHP is released, hundreds of bugs are fixed. If you're using a version of PHP that is more than two revisions older than the latest version, you should upgrade to the latest version to make sure the bug you are experiencing still exists. If people are going to set to bogus reports against the previous stable release, then this should really be noted somewhere. Especially since the new version is less than a month old, and had quite a few changes in, I was slightly ruffled at the somewhat dismissive resolution. (As it happens, this particular problem is still present in 4.3.0, but it took us a while to free up a machine to build and test this on.) Don't take this the wrong way - in general I'd support rejecting bugs against older versions, but the documentation should be clear about it if that is the case, and the status change email probably shouldn't appear so terse. The somewhat lengthy form response: Thank you for taking the time to report a problem with PHP. Unfortunately you are not using a current version of PHP -- the problem might already be fixed. Please download a new PHP version from http://www.php.net/downloads.php If you are able to reproduce the bug with one of the latest versions of PHP, please change the PHP version on this bug report to the version you tested and change the status back to Open. Again, thank you for your continued support of PHP. was not the best mood enhancer when I came in the following morning :-) Cheers, James -- James Aylett Chief Technical Architect, Tangozebra t 020 7535 9850 f 020 7535 9900 w http://tangozebra.com/ This e-mail message, including any attachments, is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, any review, retransmission, disclosure, copying, modification or other use of this e-mail message or attachments is strictly forbidden. Copyright Tangozebra 2003. All Rights Reserved. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 05/06/2002 This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] Re: #21659 [Com]: sprintf
On January 15, 2003 10:27 am, Adam Wright wrote: Last ditch effort of NotAPHPBug? ;) This too may not be a correct solution all the time. Consider 75th duplicate report of an invalid or even a resolved bug report. It may have been a bug at some point, but certainly is not anymore. It is bogus, because the user chose not to search in the bug database for similar reports before posting their report. Surely you can agree that such a report is bogus. I suppose we could introduce a dozen different more 'friendly' statuses to replace the existing bogus status, but why? Surely not for the purpose of making users who don't do the necessary research before posting their bug reports feel better about themselves. The wording could be something like NotValidBug or something like that. I think the issue that Adam is bringing up is that Bogus has a derogatory connotation. Changing it doesn't necessarily make users who don't do necessary research before posing feel better about themselves, but it may make people more willing to report actual bugs in the future. Look, I'm not on the QA team and ultimately, what makes it easiest and most worthwhile for you guys to find and fix bugs is the best thing to do. But I can easily see how a well-meaning person who might be new to PHP might report what they think is a bug, have their bug report closed with This isn't a bug. with the status changed to Bogus, and take that as a big fat Go away. PHP doesn't welcome you. Maybe their report was a bug in something else (like that XML bug that was discussed recently) or maybe they didn't make themselves clear enough in their report. Derick's suggestion of making sure that the reason why the bug is Bogus is included in the discussion help with this. But it's pretty easy for someone to get discouraged by a curt dismissal and then not offer help in the future. If you guys are inundated with bogus bugs, then perhaps this is all moot. I can just see how easy it might be for someone who isn't an initiate to get a bad taste in their mouth for PHP by an unfortunate interaction with the bug system. -dave -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: #21659 [Com]: sprintf
On Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 08:48 AM, David Sklar wrote: The wording could be something like NotValidBug or something like that. I think the issue that Adam is bringing up is that Bogus has a derogatory connotation. Changing it doesn't necessarily make users who don't do necessary research before posing feel better about themselves, but it may make people more willing to report actual bugs in the future. Look, I'm not on the QA team and ultimately, what makes it easiest and most worthwhile for you guys to find and fix bugs is the best thing to do. But I can easily see how a well-meaning person who might be new to PHP might report what they think is a bug, have their bug report closed with This isn't a bug. with the status changed to Bogus, and take that as a big fat Go away. PHP doesn't welcome you. It occurs to me that it would be relatively easy for someone with direct access to the bug database to determine whether this is a real problem - just see what percentage of people whose bugs get marked Bogus never post another bug (vs. people whose bugs get assigned other status codes). I would do it, except the web interface doesn't seem to allow searching by submitter name. -Alex -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: #21659 [Com]: sprintf
Consider the following, there are a lot more PHP users then PHP developers and considering that not all PHP developers are actively involved in the bug solving process (many are involved with PEAR/PECL/Documentation and so on) there are very few people actively working on resolving bugs. This makes the time of these people very valuable, people who post invalid bug reports eat up that valuable time and by doing so not only cause a loss of bug fixing time but also disillusion developers and often make them move on to more exciting things like writing new code. Perhaps a slightly less then an absolutely polite approach, will make those people reconsider their bug posting technique and do a little research before deciding that their non-working script constitutes a valid bug report and start wasting everyone's time. Most of the time when a bug is marked bogus the developer will indicate why the bug is bogus, so that the user is not left in the dark. All that said, I see nothing especially inflammatory about 'bogus' and I do not believe it is the intent of the developers to insult or degrade the user who had posted a bogus report. The 'invalid' status that was proposed, in my opinion, just as 'unfriendly' as bogus. Ilia -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] Re: #21659 [Com]: sprintf
From: Ilia A. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 11:19 AM Consider the following, there are a lot more PHP users then PHP developers and considering that not all PHP developers are actively involved in the bug solving process (many are involved with PEAR/PECL/Documentation and so on) there are very few people actively working on resolving bugs. This makes the time of these people very valuable, people who post invalid bug reports eat up that valuable time and by doing so not only cause a loss of bug fixing time but also disillusion developers and often make them move on to more exciting things like writing new code. Perhaps a slightly less then an absolutely polite approach, will make those people reconsider their bug posting technique and do a little research before deciding that their non-working script constitutes a valid bug report and start wasting everyone's time. Most of the time when a bug is marked bogus the developer will indicate why the bug is bogus, so that the user is not left in the dark. Like I said, ultimately, whatever works best for the folks actively resolving the best approach. My only point was that the people posting the bugs often aren't aware of these dynamics beforehand, so the less then an absolutely polite approach, which makes sense when you explain it here, can be discouraging. All that said, I see nothing especially inflammatory about 'bogus' and I do not believe it is the intent of the developers to insult or degrade the user who had posted a bogus report. The 'invalid' status that was proposed, in my opinion, just as 'unfriendly' as bogus. I don't think that anyone thinks it's the intent of developers to insult or degrade users. -dave -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: #21659 [Com]: sprintf
Ilia A. wrote: On January 15, 2003 10:27 am, Adam Wright wrote: Last ditch effort of NotAPHPBug? ;) This too may not be a correct solution all the time. Consider 75th duplicate report of an invalid or even a resolved bug report. It may have been a bug at some point, but certainly is not anymore. It is bogus, because the user chose not to search in the bug database for similar reports before posting their report. Surely you can agree that such a report is bogus. Your definition of bogus is very broad. Personally I think bogus was a bad idea in the first place. Anyway, in the situation above, it's a duplicate, not a bogus. Marking it a duplicate informes the user (for the 75th time) that the bug was already reported, and even if that bug is fixed, it then points the user to the fix as well. Shane -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
