Re: [PHP-DEV] -+ [01]
That was quite a funny way of putting it (it did make me literally laugh out loud a bit), but I have to agree :) Either way, as Sterling pointed out and I pointed out a few days ago, this +-N is really nothing but an 'I (strongly) (dis)agree', and it is in no way a voting system. That's one of the key reasons I try to avoid using it, and stick to the lengthy spelled-out sentence. Zeev At 02:35 19/12/2002, Sascha Schumann wrote: On 18 Dec 2002, Xavier Spriet wrote: Well it's up to whoever has karma to make that decision. People can give their opinion obviously but shouldn't expect to actually make the decision. That's the problem with the current state of PHP development. Too many people think that their opinion actually matters. - Sascha -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] -+ [01]
Just to somewhat limit my agreement with that statement, I'd rephrase it so that it's clear that people's opinion does matter. Something along the lines of 'Too many people think that they're in a position to decide about PHP'. Zeev At 02:35 19/12/2002, Sascha Schumann wrote: On 18 Dec 2002, Xavier Spriet wrote: Well it's up to whoever has karma to make that decision. People can give their opinion obviously but shouldn't expect to actually make the decision. That's the problem with the current state of PHP development. Too many people think that their opinion actually matters. - Sascha -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] -+ [01]
On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Zeev Suraski wrote: Just to somewhat limit my agreement with that statement, I'd rephrase it so that it's clear that people's opinion does matter. Something along the lines of 'Too many people think that they're in a position to decide about PHP'. There is nothing funny about that statement. For example, if you are not going to do the work on merging the CLI/CGI code, just saying that you would like to see that happening has little to no effect. Conclusively, there is simply too much noise on the php-dev list by people who are not going to do any work, but somehow think they are entitled to actually waste other people's time with their opinions. - Sascha -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] -+ [01]
At 14:14 19/12/2002, Sascha Schumann wrote: On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Zeev Suraski wrote: Just to somewhat limit my agreement with that statement, I'd rephrase it so that it's clear that people's opinion does matter. Something along the lines of 'Too many people think that they're in a position to decide about PHP'. There is nothing funny about that statement. For example, if you are not going to do the work on merging the CLI/CGI code, just saying that you would like to see that happening has little to no effect. Conclusively, there is simply too much noise on the php-dev list by people who are not going to do any work, but somehow think they are entitled to actually waste other people's time with their opinions. I disagree. For instance, if I helped writing the combined module, and someone separated it without thoroughly making sure that everyone is ok with this separation, I believe it's upto him to be responsible to merge it back in. What you suggest is that PHP will really be f(t), as people's resources change with time. I do not agree. If you don't want to see your time wasted, nobody's forcing you to read this list. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] -+ [01]
On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Zeev Suraski wrote: I disagree. For instance, if I helped writing the combined module, and someone separated it without thoroughly making sure that everyone is ok with this separation, I believe it's upto him to be responsible to merge it back in. What you suggest is that PHP will really be f(t), as people's resources change with time. I do not agree. I don't know if you're referring to cgi/cli separation, but in case you are let me just remind you that no one objected at the time. You were strongly in favor as well iirc. Edin -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] -+ [01]
I disagree. For instance, if I helped writing the combined module, and someone separated it without thoroughly making sure that everyone is ok with this separation, I believe it's upto him to be responsible to merge it back in. That surely happens in 0.01% of the cases. My example referred to the fact that decisions by anyone on this list are completely meaningless, unless the person can convert that decision into actual code. What you suggest is that PHP will really be f(t), as people's resources change with time. I do not agree. PHP has hardly evolved over the last six months. php-dev has become another dragging, slow committee where no actual evolution can happen. The sorry state of PHP development stems from that. Sometimes I envy the Linux kernel model where a dictator can actually move the development process forward and does not need to seek consensus with those individuals who managed to subscribe to some mailing list. - Sascha -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] -+ [01]
At 13:14 19.12.2002, Sascha Schumann wrote: On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Zeev Suraski wrote: Just to somewhat limit my agreement with that statement, I'd rephrase it so that it's clear that people's opinion does matter. Something along the lines of 'Too many people think that they're in a position to decide about PHP'. There is nothing funny about that statement. For example, if you are not going to do the work on merging the CLI/CGI code, just saying that you would like to see that happening has little to no effect. Conclusively, there is simply too much noise on the php-dev list by people who are not going to do any work, but somehow think they are entitled to actually waste other people's time with their opinions. - Sascha Ok, now your thoughts become clear and indeed make much sense. But how do we separate the noise from thoughts that metter and should be heared before doing any modification. Shall we hear them only when the initial mail is marked as RFC? marcus -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] -+ [01]
At 14:34 19/12/2002, Edin Kadribasic wrote: On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Zeev Suraski wrote: I disagree. For instance, if I helped writing the combined module, and someone separated it without thoroughly making sure that everyone is ok with this separation, I believe it's upto him to be responsible to merge it back in. What you suggest is that PHP will really be f(t), as people's resources change with time. I do not agree. I don't know if you're referring to cgi/cli separation, but in case you are let me just remind you that no one objected at the time. You were strongly in favor as well iirc. Very much possible, I did mention that I was one of the 'sinners' too. Maybe I should be the one to merge it back after all. Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] -+ [01]
On Thu, Dec 19, 2002 at 01:51:01PM +0100, Marcus Brger wrote: There is nothing funny about that statement. For example, if you are not going to do the work on merging the CLI/CGI code, just saying that you would like to see that happening has little to no effect. Conclusively, there is simply too much noise on the php-dev list by people who are not going to do any work, but somehow think they are entitled to actually waste other people's time with their opinions. - Sascha Ok, now your thoughts become clear and indeed make much sense. But how do we separate the noise from thoughts that metter and should be heared before doing any modification. Shall we hear them only when the initial mail is marked as RFC? No, but attaching a patch definitely helps. I mostly agree with Sascha and Zeev. One of the downsides to PHP's anyone can be a developer (of PHP) philosophy is that there are a large number of people with commit bits that can (legitimately?) drop themselves into any discussion with some notion of authority, even if they have never touched the part of the code that's being discussed (such as the CGI / CLI debate). In other large projects (FreeBSD, for example), when someone proposes a modification to something like the VM system, it seldom results in a long, drawn-out conversation involving dozens of people. Only the developers who understand that part of the system contribute. -- Jon Parise ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) :: The PHP Project (http://www.php.net/) -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] -+ [01]
On Thu, Dec 19, 2002 at 11:26:52AM +0200, Zeev Suraski wrote: Either way, as Sterling pointed out and I pointed out a few days ago, this +-N is really nothing but an 'I (strongly) (dis)agree', and it is in no way a voting system. That's one of the key reasons I try to avoid using it, and stick to the lengthy spelled-out sentence. +1 -- Jon Parise ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) :: The PHP Project (http://www.php.net/) -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] -+ [01]
+1 on this.. :) On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Zeev Suraski wrote: Just to somewhat limit my agreement with that statement, I'd rephrase it so that it's clear that people's opinion does matter. Something along the lines of 'Too many people think that they're in a position to decide about PHP'. Zeev At 02:35 19/12/2002, Sascha Schumann wrote: On 18 Dec 2002, Xavier Spriet wrote: Well it's up to whoever has karma to make that decision. People can give their opinion obviously but shouldn't expect to actually make the decision. That's the problem with the current state of PHP development. Too many people think that their opinion actually matters. - Sascha -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -Andrei http://www.gravitonic.com/ What's a polar bear? A rectangular bear after a coordinate transform. -- Bill White ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] -+ [01]
At 01:35 19.12.2002, Sascha Schumann wrote: On 18 Dec 2002, Xavier Spriet wrote: Well it's up to whoever has karma to make that decision. People can give their opinion obviously but shouldn't expect to actually make the decision. That's the problem with the current state of PHP development. Too many people think that their opinion actually matters. - Sascha What does that mean? Only a small group has the right to do anything and the others are only idiots who code for the silliness since only a small group takes advantage? We have feature requests and a lot of good programmers. I think every should have the right to say what she/he wants. -+ [01] is only a thing to clearly mark ones meaning. And from my point of view every meaning matters here. If not make php a closed source development. Until that is done we can go on as we did in the past. Here the meanings and let those being or feeling responsible do necessary changes. marcus -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] -+ [01]
Well it's up to whoever has karma to make that decision. People can give their opinion obviously but shouldn't expect to actually make the decision. On Wed, 2002-12-18 at 18:43, Sterling Hughes wrote: Hey, Just clarifying: We never agreed that -+[01] meant anything except a short way of: -1 = I strongly disagree -0 = I disagree 0 = neutral +0 = I agree +1 = I strongly agree ie, We don't have a voting system. If someone, let's call him Barney, says -1 on this issue, all that means is that Barney disagrees, but that doesn't (like in Apache circles[1]), mean that this is blocked. Right? -Sterling [1] If Barney can give a technical reason for blocking it, and can offer an alternative solution. -- Xavier Spriet [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] -+ [01]
On 18 Dec 2002, Xavier Spriet wrote: Well it's up to whoever has karma to make that decision. People can give their opinion obviously but shouldn't expect to actually make the decision. That's the problem with the current state of PHP development. Too many people think that their opinion actually matters. - Sascha -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
