php-general Digest 30 Dec 2008 15:44:50 -0000 Issue 5873
php-general Digest 30 Dec 2008 15:44:50 - Issue 5873 Topics (messages 285221 through 285232): Re: Architecture patterns in PHP 285221 by: Sancar Saran 285222 by: Manuel Lemos 285224 by: Daniel Kolbo 285225 by: Nathan Nobbe 285226 by: Manuel Lemos 285227 by: Nathan Nobbe 285229 by: Nathan Nobbe Re: turn shared hosting server to external image storage hosting 285223 by: paragasu Re: Webhotel structure 285228 by: Dotan Cohen 285230 by: Peter Sorensen 285231 by: Carlos Medina 285232 by: Dotan Cohen Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: php-general-digest-subscr...@lists.php.net To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: php-general-digest-unsubscr...@lists.php.net To post to the list, e-mail: php-gene...@lists.php.net -- ---BeginMessage--- On Sunday 28 December 2008 01:40:01 Michael C. Yates wrote: Hey, How do you structure your web applications? I am thinking in terms of separating presentation and logic. How is that done in PHP? And how many architecture patterns are there? Thanks Micheal C. Yates Well, I use, way of Rasmus (I give that name) and please read this why http://talks.php.net/show/drupal08/0 regards Sancar ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- Hello, on 12/30/2008 01:13 AM Sancar Saran said the following: How do you structure your web applications? I am thinking in terms of separating presentation and logic. How is that done in PHP? And how many architecture patterns are there? Well, I use, way of Rasmus (I give that name) and please read this why http://talks.php.net/show/drupal08/0 After you watch that presentation, the conclusion that you reach is if you want to develop a site that only shows a page saying Hello world! you should not use an MVC framework because it adds to much performance overhead! ;-) Seriously, real world projects are way much more complex than simple Hello world! pages. Personally I do no use MVC frameworks (nor I have developed one) because they just add unnecessary complexity. However, separating concerns (processing, presentation, model data storage, distributed services, etc...) is a good thing to help keeping the project organization (and your mental sanity) as you project grows. You can separate concerns without using MVC, especial front controllers that go through many hops to sort which code to execute. -- Regards, Manuel Lemos Find and post PHP jobs http://www.phpclasses.org/jobs/ PHP Classes - Free ready to use OOP components written in PHP http://www.phpclasses.org/ ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- Michael C. Yates wrote: Hey, How do you structure your web applications? I am thinking in terms of separating presentation and logic. How is that done in PHP? And how many architecture patterns are there? Thanks Micheal C. Yates I am an amateur programmer, so take my comments with a grain of salt (i haven't done heavy traffic long term projects). Having read through this thread no one has of yet mentioned Smarty.net http://smarty.net/ . Smarty is a template engine. It allows presentation to be separated with logic. I like it cuz my site designes usually end up looking like a 3rd grader designed it and you need some sorta special glasses to protect your eyes. However, i can do some solid logic coding (query DBs and whatnot). So smarty has been highly prized by me in my projects. But that is all i am doing is 'projects', those that usually lost money. But this is not because of smarty. Without smarty i wouldn't have even been able to get going. Also, it cleans up the code if you stick to the division principles. my USD 0.02$ which is a lot less now than it used to be... :( dK ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 9:05 PM, Manuel Lemos mle...@acm.org wrote: Hello, on 12/30/2008 01:13 AM Sancar Saran said the following: How do you structure your web applications? I am thinking in terms of separating presentation and logic. How is that done in PHP? And how many architecture patterns are there? Well, I use, way of Rasmus (I give that name) and please read this why http://talks.php.net/show/drupal08/0 After you watch that presentation, the conclusion that you reach is if you want to develop a site that only shows a page saying Hello world! you should not use an MVC framework because it adds to much performance overhead! ;-) it also acts as a nice control mechanism to compare so many frameworks, trivial php, and html. really nice to see the numbers like that; so cake is horrifically slow, solar zend are pretty fast and code igniter is like twice as fast as those. i also like how rasmus shows several advanced optimization techniques, via strace and gdb. ive not used the 'included' extension, ill probly check it out. you
Re: [PHP] Architecture patterns in PHP
On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 12:26 AM, Manuel Lemos mle...@acm.org wrote: Hello, on 12/30/2008 05:07 AM Nathan Nobbe said the following: How do you structure your web applications? I am thinking in terms of separating presentation and logic. How is that done in PHP? And how many architecture patterns are there? Well, I use, way of Rasmus (I give that name) and please read this why http://talks.php.net/show/drupal08/0 After you watch that presentation, the conclusion that you reach is if you want to develop a site that only shows a page saying Hello world! you should not use an MVC framework because it adds to much performance overhead! ;-) it also acts as a nice control mechanism to compare so many frameworks, trivial php, and html. really nice to see the numbers like that; so cake is horrifically slow, solar zend are pretty fast and code igniter is like twice as fast as those. I am not sure if that conclusion is correct. Were the benchmarks done using a PHP cache extension? im not sure, maybe ill ask him though. If not, the results may just show that Cake includes more code probably because it is more mature than others that are younger. hmm, im not so sure about that. code igniter is specifically designed to be fast, and it clearly is. it would be interesting to see feature comparison charts but im sure both zend and ci stack up against cake in that regard. What happens is that PHP code is compiled in zend opcode before executing. The more code split in include files you load, more time it spends loading the code before executing. When you use a PHP cache extension, the compile phase is skipped and replaced by loading compiled PHP code from cache. So most of the time is taken actually by executing the code. Therefore using the PHP cache extension may give more useful results to compare framework execution overhead. well, heres a series of tests that compare the aforementioned frameworks in much the same manner, using different caching solutions, and you can see the differences are grossly exagerated when the opcode cache is running. cake w/ the opcode cache is appauling compared to ci, and zend is substantially faster both with and without the cache as well. http://www.avnetlabs.com/php/php-framework-comparison-benchmarks i also like how rasmus shows several advanced optimization techniques, via strace and gdb. ive not used the 'included' extension, ill probly check it out. you know some of us yougin's never really got too much pratical exposure to tools like that =/ im still ramping up on these low level utilities myself. Those may not be the best tools to tell you what PHP code is taking more time to execute, as they only show system calls. i dont recall calling them 'the best tools'. i said 'advanced optimization techniques', which they can clearly can be. There are PHP profiler extension that give you a better vision of the actual PHP code that may be slowing down things. i dont think ive ever seen a warning about the system timezone misusage on a kcachegrind graph :p strace is more useful for PHP core developers as it tells which system calls are more expensive and could be worth some optimization. in general sure; but i would also say theyre fair game for the advanced optimizer as well. plus did you see the part about 'cleaning up the include path'. moving to require at the outer layer and as far in as possible, basically. thats a really good idea, and it looks like this 'includes' extension is well suited for tweaking in that manner. i may end up adding it in the arsenal alongside xdebug+valgrind. -nathan
Re: [PHP] Webhotel structure
2008/12/28 tedd tedd.sperl...@gmail.com: So I would prefer to remove everythink and start all over . He's talking about everythink. Whenever I do that, I have problems too. Interestingly enough, today I opened Dan Kegel's (of Wine fame) website and was greeted with this: Dan Kegel's Web Hostel -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
Re: [PHP] Architecture patterns in PHP
On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 1:05 AM, Nathan Nobbe quickshif...@gmail.comwrote: plus did you see the part about 'cleaning up the include path'. moving to require at the outer layer and as far in as possible, basically. thats a really good idea, and it looks like this 'includes' extension lol, its 'inclued' dummy :P -other dude
[PHP] Re: Webhotel structure
Hi Carlos Thanks for trying to help. As a newbie on web design I was looking for help on about everythink, as a newbie you don't know which questions to ask. With help from other sources I found out how to wipe my webhotel and start over. After a fresh install of coppermin I still had problems adding pictures. I finally solved that problem which turned out to be an error in Surftowns build in filemanager chmod command. In recursive mode it only changed permissions on files not on folders. So the coppermine users did not have the needed file permissions. I used FileZilla to correct the permissions. I anyone want to know more abot this see coppermine forum search for batch-add best regards Peter Sørensen Carlos Medina i...@simply-networks.de wrote in message news:c5.73.47432.da8b6...@pb1.pair.com... Nordstjernealle 10 schrieb: Hi PHP experts What is the overall structure on webhotels, how do I remove/clean everythink including everythinnk liek databases etc? Sorry if this is not the proper news group for this question, please redirect me. I am a newbie trying to make my osn webside with a minimum effort. First I had a student to make some think for me, but he never finished it, so the useless remains are on my web. My first plan was to use php gallery, but my web host surftown do not support safemode off. So I found coppermine, surftown even support the install as one click. First trial looked good, but then I ran into trouble, I get different error messages. So I would prefer to remove everythink and start all over . best regards Peter Sørensen Hallo Peter, i think i understand what you mean (again: i think) but i am not really sure to understand what you need. You need some Support on PHP? and when yes, by what? When you dont need support for PHP please tell us, what you are looking for? Do you need Suport for coppermine? then look here http://documentation.coppermine-gallery.net/en/languages.htm You want remove all the Application on your server and you dont know how? What is your System, where ist Your Server System? Do you need some Support from PHP programmer? Please contact me then :-) (reply only to me then) Regards Carlos Medina -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Re: Webhotel structure
Peter Sorensen schrieb: Hi Carlos Thanks for trying to help. As a newbie on web design I was looking for help on about everythink, as a newbie you don't know which questions to ask. With help from other sources I found out how to wipe my webhotel and start over. After a fresh install of coppermin I still had problems adding pictures. I finally solved that problem which turned out to be an error in Surftowns build in filemanager chmod command. In recursive mode it only changed permissions on files not on folders. So the coppermine users did not have the needed file permissions. I used FileZilla to correct the permissions. I anyone want to know more abot this see coppermine forum search for batch-add best regards Peter Sørensen Carlos Medina i...@simply-networks.de wrote in message news:c5.73.47432.da8b6...@pb1.pair.com... Nordstjernealle 10 schrieb: Hi PHP experts What is the overall structure on webhotels, how do I remove/clean everythink including everythinnk liek databases etc? Sorry if this is not the proper news group for this question, please redirect me. I am a newbie trying to make my osn webside with a minimum effort. First I had a student to make some think for me, but he never finished it, so the useless remains are on my web. My first plan was to use php gallery, but my web host surftown do not support safemode off. So I found coppermine, surftown even support the install as one click. First trial looked good, but then I ran into trouble, I get different error messages. So I would prefer to remove everythink and start all over . best regards Peter Sørensen Hallo Peter, i think i understand what you mean (again: i think) but i am not really sure to understand what you need. You need some Support on PHP? and when yes, by what? When you dont need support for PHP please tell us, what you are looking for? Do you need Suport for coppermine? then look here http://documentation.coppermine-gallery.net/en/languages.htm You want remove all the Application on your server and you dont know how? What is your System, where ist Your Server System? Do you need some Support from PHP programmer? Please contact me then :-) (reply only to me then) Regards Carlos Medina Hi Peter, well done, as a news you are learning, that the best way to find out is to search, look at and try. I can give you only this advice: try, Search, Try again and again, and when you can not find the solution, ask more detailed. Regards Carlos -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Webhotel structure
2008/12/30 Peter Sorensen nordstjerneall...@gmail.com: Hi Carlos Thanks for trying to help. As a newbie on web design I was looking for help on about everythink, as a newbie you don't know which questions to ask. With help from other sources I found out how to wipe my webhotel and start over. After a fresh install of coppermin I still had problems adding pictures. I finally solved that problem which turned out to be an error in Surftowns build in filemanager chmod command. In recursive mode it only changed permissions on files not on folders. So the coppermine users did not have the needed file permissions. I used FileZilla to correct the permissions. I anyone want to know more abot this see coppermine forum search for batch-add best regards Peter, the list had a laugh at your expense, as you used some incorrect words in what turned out to be a funny manner for those fluent in English. 1) Webhotel is called web hosting in English. 2) Everythink should probably be everything. Everythink sounds like you are thying to think about the entire universe at the same second. It also sounds like a term from the book 1984. 3) It is obvious that you are unfamiliar with some basic concepts regarding web servers and the software that runs on them. That is fine- everyone here was at the same stage once and this list in particular is very friendly to newbies. But the way you worded your sentence just turned out funny. I am certain that you would have an even bigger laugh if I were to try asking a question in Bokmal or Nynorsk! You might want to look at the linux commands rm and rmdir if you have SSH access to the server (and if it is a Linux server). Otherwise, I recommend Konqueror (From KDE) as the best graphical tool for managing files on a remote server. Good luck. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
Re: [PHP] Architecture patterns in PHP
On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 2:07 AM, Nathan Nobbe quickshif...@gmail.com wrote: on 12/30/2008 01:13 AM Sancar Saran said the following: and please read this why http://talks.php.net/show/drupal08/0 it also acts as a nice control mechanism to compare so many frameworks, trivial php, and html. really nice to see the numbers like that; so cake is horrifically slow, solar zend are pretty fast and code igniter is like twice as fast as those. One thing I'd like to point out is that hello world might show the overhead of putting something to screen, it doesn't touch the database or any of the harder parts of a real app like sessions acls. Things quickly go downhill from there. I saw these slides and started comparing my custom developed framework vs most of the standard picks out there. At first I was really disappointed with myself after seeing my apache bench numbers suck. Turns out when you actually start building an app mine wasn't nearly as slow as I thought. But on a simple hello world it fared pretty pathetically because it ran a lot of other routines that I always use in real apps, but not in hello world. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Architecture patterns in PHP
On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 10:15 AM, Eric Butera eric.but...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 2:07 AM, Nathan Nobbe quickshif...@gmail.com wrote: on 12/30/2008 01:13 AM Sancar Saran said the following: and please read this why http://talks.php.net/show/drupal08/0 it also acts as a nice control mechanism to compare so many frameworks, trivial php, and html. really nice to see the numbers like that; so cake is horrifically slow, solar zend are pretty fast and code igniter is like twice as fast as those. One thing I'd like to point out is that hello world might show the overhead of putting something to screen, it doesn't touch the database or any of the harder parts of a real app like sessions acls. Things quickly go downhill from there. yeah, i dont think ive ever seen a real world app (more specifically an app from one of the companies ive worked at) that didnt hit the database on even the most simple of pages. I saw these slides and started comparing my custom developed framework vs most of the standard picks out there. At first I was really disappointed with myself after seeing my apache bench numbers suck. Turns out when you actually start building an app mine wasn't nearly as slow as I thought. But on a simple hello world it fared pretty pathetically because it ran a lot of other routines that I always use in real apps, but not in hello world. clearly there are other facets to compare, like a database layer would be nice to compare. ci uses what they call active record, which basically means runtime introspection of the database. im not sure how it works in cake or zend, but i know symphony has an abstraction layer which theyve already mapped propel and doctrine to. lots of room for performance differences there no doubt. what i tend to think about when i see these numbers tho, is that if i were to ever build a company w/ a php app that was slated for growth, cake would be probly the last option on the list. the differences arent so bad when you have a tiny website, but we've got 2000 servers at photobucket for example. imagine how many servers you can save at that scale w/ a php framework that does its job and gets out of the way. i just happen to know another popular web company here in denver running on some hacked version of cake, and honestly, i feel sorry for them :D -nathan
Re: [PHP] Architecture patterns in PHP
On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Nathan Nobbe quickshif...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 10:15 AM, Eric Butera eric.but...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 2:07 AM, Nathan Nobbe quickshif...@gmail.com wrote: on 12/30/2008 01:13 AM Sancar Saran said the following: and please read this why http://talks.php.net/show/drupal08/0 it also acts as a nice control mechanism to compare so many frameworks, trivial php, and html. really nice to see the numbers like that; so cake is horrifically slow, solar zend are pretty fast and code igniter is like twice as fast as those. One thing I'd like to point out is that hello world might show the overhead of putting something to screen, it doesn't touch the database or any of the harder parts of a real app like sessions acls. Things quickly go downhill from there. yeah, i dont think ive ever seen a real world app (more specifically an app from one of the companies ive worked at) that didnt hit the database on even the most simple of pages. I saw these slides and started comparing my custom developed framework vs most of the standard picks out there. At first I was really disappointed with myself after seeing my apache bench numbers suck. Turns out when you actually start building an app mine wasn't nearly as slow as I thought. But on a simple hello world it fared pretty pathetically because it ran a lot of other routines that I always use in real apps, but not in hello world. clearly there are other facets to compare, like a database layer would be nice to compare. ci uses what they call active record, which basically means runtime introspection of the database. im not sure how it works in cake or zend, but i know symphony has an abstraction layer which theyve already mapped propel and doctrine to. lots of room for performance differences there no doubt. what i tend to think about when i see these numbers tho, is that if i were to ever build a company w/ a php app that was slated for growth, cake would be probly the last option on the list. the differences arent so bad when you have a tiny website, but we've got 2000 servers at photobucket for example. imagine how many servers you can save at that scale w/ a php framework that does its job and gets out of the way. i just happen to know another popular web company here in denver running on some hacked version of cake, and honestly, i feel sorry for them :D -nathan I was following the blog tutorial on cake and here's what I got from hitting the post/index page: 081230 12:51:55 316 Connect r...@localhost on 316 Init DB cake 316 Query SHOW TABLES FROM `cake` 316 Query DESCRIBE `posts` 316 Query SELECT `Post`.`id`, `Post`.`title`, `Post`.`body`, `Post`.`created`, `Post`.`modified` FROM `posts` AS `Post` WHERE 1 = 1 316 Quit -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Webhotel structure
On Tue, 2008-12-30 at 17:44 +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/12/30 Peter Sorensen nordstjerneall...@gmail.com: Peter, the list had a laugh at your expense, as you used some incorrect words in what turned out to be a funny manner for those fluent in English. 1) Webhotel is called web hosting in English. 2) Everythink should probably be everything. Everythink sounds like you are thying to think about the entire universe at the same second. It also sounds like a term from the book 1984. The important thing is that he keeps on thying! Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Architecture patterns in PHP
On Tue, 2008-12-30 at 12:15 -0500, Eric Butera wrote: On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 2:07 AM, Nathan Nobbe quickshif...@gmail.com wrote: on 12/30/2008 01:13 AM Sancar Saran said the following: and please read this why http://talks.php.net/show/drupal08/0 it also acts as a nice control mechanism to compare so many frameworks, trivial php, and html. really nice to see the numbers like that; so cake is horrifically slow, solar zend are pretty fast and code igniter is like twice as fast as those. One thing I'd like to point out is that hello world might show the overhead of putting something to screen, it doesn't touch the database or any of the harder parts of a real app like sessions acls. Things quickly go downhill from there. I saw these slides and started comparing my custom developed framework vs most of the standard picks out there. At first I was really disappointed with myself after seeing my apache bench numbers suck. Turns out when you actually start building an app mine wasn't nearly as slow as I thought. But on a simple hello world it fared pretty pathetically because it ran a lot of other routines that I always use in real apps, but not in hello world. You have it exactly right. In a hello world situation where my framework is leveraged properly, it beats the pants off plain PHP... why? Because with my framework I generally compile to the actually requested page, and hello world would result in static HTML content only... of course, as you'll see in some of these benchmarks they would encase the hello world output in a component, or module, or view or what-have-ye which really makes the comparison a bit contrived. And as Eric says, once you start loading in the database and all those other libs you need anyways just to perform your business logic, you will quite likely find that the difference between no framework and a good framework are at best minimal for server performance, while the framework approach provides ample benefits to architecural clarity and modularity. Obviously though, some frameworks/environments are pigs at the best of times... I'm looking at you Joomla :) Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Architecture patterns in PHP
On Tue, 2008-12-30 at 12:53 -0500, Eric Butera wrote: On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Nathan Nobbe I was following the blog tutorial on cake and here's what I got from hitting the post/index page: 081230 12:51:55 316 Connect r...@localhost on 316 Init DB cake 316 Query SHOW TABLES FROM `cake` 316 Query DESCRIBE `posts` 316 Query SELECT `Post`.`id`, `Post`.`title`, `Post`.`body`, `Post`.`created`, `Post`.`modified` FROM `posts` AS `Post` WHERE 1 = 1 316 Quit A good framework will allow you to replace the introspection step with a static definition of the database table, thus easily bypassing the extra queries. Although, I can't fathom why they've requested all the tables. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Architecture patterns in PHP
On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 11:07 AM, Robert Cummings rob...@interjinn.comwrote: On Tue, 2008-12-30 at 12:53 -0500, Eric Butera wrote: On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Nathan Nobbe I was following the blog tutorial on cake and here's what I got from hitting the post/index page: 081230 12:51:55 316 Connect r...@localhost on 316 Init DB cake 316 Query SHOW TABLES FROM `cake` 316 Query DESCRIBE `posts` 316 Query SELECT `Post`.`id`, `Post`.`title`, `Post`.`body`, `Post`.`created`, `Post`.`modified` FROM `posts` AS `Post` WHERE 1 = 1 316 Quit A good framework will allow you to replace the introspection step with a static definition of the database table, thus easily bypassing the extra queries. Although, I can't fathom why they've requested all the tables. i think even w/o the static definitions, any sane framework would cache the schema definition somewhere, at least temporarily to keep performance reasonable. im not sure if thats the case, in any of these however. -nathan
Re: [PHP] Architecture patterns in PHP
On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 1:07 PM, Robert Cummings rob...@interjinn.com wrote: On Tue, 2008-12-30 at 12:53 -0500, Eric Butera wrote: On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Nathan Nobbe I was following the blog tutorial on cake and here's what I got from hitting the post/index page: 081230 12:51:55 316 Connect r...@localhost on 316 Init DB cake 316 Query SHOW TABLES FROM `cake` 316 Query DESCRIBE `posts` 316 Query SELECT `Post`.`id`, `Post`.`title`, `Post`.`body`, `Post`.`created`, `Post`.`modified` FROM `posts` AS `Post` WHERE 1 = 1 316 Quit A good framework will allow you to replace the introspection step with a static definition of the database table, thus easily bypassing the extra queries. Although, I can't fathom why they've requested all the tables. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP To be fair cake did cache the show tables/describe magically for a few seconds if I sat there refreshing the page. :) I always generate my Gateways VO's from table definitions hand-code any non-crud statements. I've never really dealt with this stuff before but it is a little disheartening. I would rather take the 5 minutes re-generating a few files for an updated table versus infinite amounts of computer power wasted trying to just make it work. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Architecture patterns in PHP
On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 11:24 AM, Eric Butera eric.but...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 1:07 PM, Robert Cummings rob...@interjinn.com wrote: On Tue, 2008-12-30 at 12:53 -0500, Eric Butera wrote: On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Nathan Nobbe I was following the blog tutorial on cake and here's what I got from hitting the post/index page: 081230 12:51:55 316 Connect r...@localhost on 316 Init DB cake 316 Query SHOW TABLES FROM `cake` 316 Query DESCRIBE `posts` 316 Query SELECT `Post`.`id`, `Post`.`title`, `Post`.`body`, `Post`.`created`, `Post`.`modified` FROM `posts` AS `Post` WHERE 1 = 1 316 Quit A good framework will allow you to replace the introspection step with a static definition of the database table, thus easily bypassing the extra queries. Although, I can't fathom why they've requested all the tables. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP To be fair cake did cache the show tables/describe magically for a few seconds if I sat there refreshing the page. :) I always generate my Gateways VO's from table definitions hand-code any non-crud statements. I've never really dealt with this stuff before but it is a little disheartening. I would rather take the 5 minutes re-generating a few files for an updated table versus infinite amounts of computer power wasted trying to just make it work. which bodes really well for something like symphony, but im not sure how bulky the orm abstraction layer is. that could end up ruining it in the end.. -nathan
[PHP] PHP telnet server
Hi everyone, I'm trying to rewrite an old MUD in PHP; the reasons for this are that the original is written in C and most files in the codebase run over 2000 lines with at least 20 of them, which makes it very hard to change anything. Plus, the web interface is also written in C, and needless to say that's just nasty! So I was looking at sockets in PHP, and thinking about the semantics of it all. I was looking at this article: http://devzone.zend.com/article/1086-Writing-Socket-Servers-in-PHP And thought 'wow this looks like it might be pretty easy actually!' But then I reached the first hurdle point: ' /* Accept incoming requests and handle them as child processes */ $client = socket_accept($sock); ' Surely the point of a MUD is that the requests are shared? I also looked up telnet servers in PHP on google quite extensively, and there seems to be no real information out there? I would imagine that I'm looking for the wrong thing, however. In short I'm looking for the basic idea on how a MUD server would be implemented in PHP. Thanks in advance for anything, Luke Slater -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP telnet server
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008, Luke Slater wrote: Hi everyone, A quick read over Stevens` A.P.U.E. and UNIX Network Programing Vol. 1 should familarize you with multi-threaded TCP/IP daemon development. ~BAS 1. http://www.kohala.com/start/apue.html -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Since I speak with some of you more than people I see in person....
To hell with being on-topic, since this list is generally never on-topic for an entire thread anyway. This has been a roller-coaster year for some of us --- certainly myself included --- but the year has come to a close. I want to take a moment to wish each and every one of you a safe and wonderful new year. May 2009 be ten times healthier, happier, and more prosperous to you and yours than the three best years of your life so far, and may each year beyond that be better even than the one before. And as a side note (some of you already know): for my wife and I closing out the year, we heard the heartbeat of our first child for the first time today in the ultrasound. Nothing else will ever again matter as much to me as what I am about to embark upon. I don't think any song or sound I've ever heard in my entire life was as beautiful as those few seconds. My heart literally feels so full that it could burst at any moment. To all of you, thank you for being a part of the PHP project, and many of you professional and personal parts of my life. Of all of the communities I've been involved in the last sixteen years or so, this has always been my favorite. And it's because of you folks. From the bottom of my (bursting!) heart, thank you, and I look forward to working alongside all of you in 2009. All the best -- /Daniel P. Brown daniel.br...@parasane.net || danbr...@php.net http://www.parasane.net/ || http://www.pilotpig.net/ Unadvertised dedicated server deals, too low to print - email me to find out! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Architecture patterns in PHP
Hello, on 12/30/2008 04:27 PM Nathan Nobbe said the following: I was following the blog tutorial on cake and here's what I got from hitting the post/index page: 081230 12:51:55 316 Connect r...@localhost on 316 Init DB cake 316 Query SHOW TABLES FROM `cake` 316 Query DESCRIBE `posts` 316 Query SELECT `Post`.`id`, `Post`.`title`, `Post`.`body`, `Post`.`created`, `Post`.`modified` FROM `posts` AS `Post` WHERE 1 = 1 316 Quit A good framework will allow you to replace the introspection step with a static definition of the database table, thus easily bypassing the extra queries. Although, I can't fathom why they've requested all the tables. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP To be fair cake did cache the show tables/describe magically for a few seconds if I sat there refreshing the page. :) I always generate my Gateways VO's from table definitions hand-code any non-crud statements. I've never really dealt with this stuff before but it is a little disheartening. I would rather take the 5 minutes re-generating a few files for an updated table versus infinite amounts of computer power wasted trying to just make it work. which bodes really well for something like symphony, but im not sure how bulky the orm abstraction layer is. that could end up ruining it in the end.. I think that part of the problem here is that those so called ORM solutions are in reality ROM because they depart from the relational data model to the object model. Since they do that dynamically, even when they cache the results of reverse engineer the object model from the database table structure, there is always some overhead reading class structures from cache and rebuilding objects. This article talks precisely about that problem. http://www.phpclasses.org/blog/post/82-PHP-ObjectRelational-Mapping-ORM-or-ROM.html Personally I use a code generation based solution named Metastorage. It lets me defined my object models statically and then it generates efficient code for the classes that store and retrieve the application data objects. http://www.metastorage.net/ This allows more flexibility and productivity than most ActiveRecord based approaches, as it supports complex object models with relationships, validation rules, etc.. Then Metastorage generates smart code that only does what you need. There are no fat base classes to extend, nor ORM runtime libraries to include. The generated code is self-contained, i.e. it does all that is necessary without runtime libraries to add overhead to the execution of the applications. In cases that it is not necessary to use persistent objects (because the objects are not going to be changed), like for instance listing data or sending newsletters, Metastorage provides the concept of report classes, i.e. classes that just retrieve data for read-only purposes. It is much more efficient than using whole persistent objects because it only retrieves the object variables that you need into arrays. -- Regards, Manuel Lemos Find and post PHP jobs http://www.phpclasses.org/jobs/ PHP Classes - Free ready to use OOP components written in PHP http://www.phpclasses.org/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP telnet server
I often thought PHP would be a nice language for a MUD, if one could get the performance out of it... 'Course you could always write some of the heaviest bits as extensions... Anyway, I don't think you need the connections to be shared in any special way. Just update your data store and spew out whatever 'diff' you need to for anybody viewing the same room/object. But maybe that's just the stupid way to write a MUD. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP telnet server
On Tue, 2008-12-30 at 21:12 +, Luke Slater wrote: Hi everyone, I'm trying to rewrite an old MUD in PHP; the reasons for this are that the original is written in C and most files in the codebase run over 2000 lines with at least 20 of them, which makes it very hard to change anything. Plus, the web interface is also written in C, and needless to say that's just nasty! So I was looking at sockets in PHP, and thinking about the semantics of it all. I was looking at this article: http://devzone.zend.com/article/1086-Writing-Socket-Servers-in-PHP And thought 'wow this looks like it might be pretty easy actually!' But then I reached the first hurdle point: ' /* Accept incoming requests and handle them as child processes */ $client = socket_accept($sock); ' Surely the point of a MUD is that the requests are shared? I also looked up telnet servers in PHP on google quite extensively, and there seems to be no real information out there? I would imagine that I'm looking for the wrong thing, however. In short I'm looking for the basic idea on how a MUD server would be implemented in PHP. Thanks in advance for anything, You can accept multiple socket connections perfectly fine in PHP. Whether you spawn off child processes to handle them is up to you. But, you will probably want to use socket_set_nonblock() for a mud. I kept my MUD in C though and created my own scripting engine for it... didn't feal like massaging thousands of lines of existing area scripts into a new language. Instead I built a new engine that was backward compatible :) Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Webhotel structure
2008/12/30 Nordstjernealle 10 nordstjerneall...@gmail.com: Hi Dotan I am glad I can at least be funny. I must admit I am a bit lazy when it comes to write perfect english in mails. I believe we can do better with our time. In this particulary case the result was below acceptable levels. English is not my native language either, by the way. No I would not laugh if you where writing in Bokmal or Nynorsk. Because I would not know the first think about spelling in the Norwedian languages. I am Danish, we speak and write in Danish. I apologize! I know little of Scandinavian culture (the letters in your last name were a hint to Scandinavian) and your email address just looked Norwegian to me. Yes it is a linux server, and I know the basic linux commands, but I do not know if and how I can get SSH access to my web host. If you can't, then switch hosts. SSH access is a necessity. It may not be supported or be too basic to be include in the help search at surftown, I simply do not know. My web do not have a fixed IP, so I guess it may not No fixed IP for your web host?!? Change! It seems like surftown is an okay host, compared to my less than 2$ a month, but their help is a major candidate for winning the price of the most useless help ever. A google search found a blog where the guy say they do not support ssh on pivate hosting, so I guess not. /Peter -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
Re: [PHP] PHP telnet server
On Tue, 2008-12-30 at 16:21 -0500, Brian A. Seklecki wrote: On Tue, 30 Dec 2008, Luke Slater wrote: Hi everyone, A quick read over Stevens` A.P.U.E. and UNIX Network Programing Vol. 1 should familarize you with multi-threaded TCP/IP daemon development. Couple of problems... 1. he needs ot buy the book 2. he wants to do it in PHP not C Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP telnet server
On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 16:34, c...@l-i-e.com wrote: I often thought PHP would be a nice language for a MUD, if one could get the performance out of it... 'Course you could always write some of the heaviest bits as extensions... Indeed. I had written a very simple control-panel-like Telnet script in PHP several years ago to handle reboots and emergency situations, but never scaled it for more than one or two connections. Resource usage, however, was negligible - a few Kilobytes, really. Customize your PHP --- trim out extensions you don't need, write common routines as extensions to save parsing time, and tune it to be optimal for the consistent stream of packets sent across the sockets, and I think a MUD could be very successfully authored in PHP. -- /Daniel P. Brown daniel.br...@parasane.net || danbr...@php.net http://www.parasane.net/ || http://www.pilotpig.net/ Unadvertised dedicated server deals, too low to print - email me to find out! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Webhotel structure
On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 16:37, Dotan Cohen dotanco...@gmail.com wrote: 2008/12/30 Nordstjernealle 10 nordstjerneall...@gmail.com: Hi Dotan I am glad I can at least be funny. I must admit I am a bit lazy when it comes to write perfect english in mails. I believe we can do better with our time. In this particulary case the result was below acceptable levels. English is not my native language either, by the way. Fear not there are many, many days where I feel it's not my first either. I'm just waiting for the day when nonsensical gibberish spoken only to oneself is recognized as an official language. ;-P Yes it is a linux server, and I know the basic linux commands, but I do not know if and how I can get SSH access to my web host. If you can't, then switch hosts. SSH access is a necessity. I agree, but many shared hosts will not allow SSH access due to security concerns. No fixed IP for your web host?!? Change! Once again, shared hosting, not usually a given It seems like surftown is an okay host, compared to my less than 2$ a month, especially for this price. On a side note, Nord, we're a bunch of goofballs here, for the most part. No one means any harm, so feel free to poke fun back (except at me, because I am perfect). And, by the way, welcome to the community! -- /Daniel P. Brown daniel.br...@parasane.net || danbr...@php.net http://www.parasane.net/ || http://www.pilotpig.net/ Unadvertised dedicated server deals, too low to print - email me to find out! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP telnet server
Hello, There are plenty of ready to use solutions to build TCP servers. Here are some of them: Simple TCP Daemon http://www.phpclasses.org/daemon Generic socket based networking servers http://www.phpclasses.org/clssocket Implement TCP socket server scripts http://www.phpclasses.org/flosocket Implement TCP/IP client and servers http://www.phpclasses.org/net Implement TCP socket servers http://www.phpclasses.org/simpleserver Handle multiple TCP socket connections http://www.phpclasses.org/supersocket Build TCP socket networking servers http://www.phpclasses.org/qserv -- Regards, Manuel Lemos Find and post PHP jobs http://www.phpclasses.org/jobs/ PHP Classes - Free ready to use OOP components written in PHP http://www.phpclasses.org/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Since I speak with some of you more than people I see in person....
On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Daniel Brown danbr...@php.net wrote: To hell with being on-topic, since this list is generally never on-topic for an entire thread anyway. This has been a roller-coaster year for some of us --- certainly myself included --- but the year has come to a close. I want to take a moment to wish each and every one of you a safe and wonderful new year. May 2009 be ten times healthier, happier, and more prosperous to you and yours than the three best years of your life so far, and may each year beyond that be better even than the one before. And as a side note (some of you already know): for my wife and I closing out the year, we heard the heartbeat of our first child for the first time today in the ultrasound. Nothing else will ever again matter as much to me as what I am about to embark upon. I don't think any song or sound I've ever heard in my entire life was as beautiful as those few seconds. My heart literally feels so full that it could burst at any moment. To all of you, thank you for being a part of the PHP project, and many of you professional and personal parts of my life. Of all of the communities I've been involved in the last sixteen years or so, this has always been my favorite. And it's because of you folks. From the bottom of my (bursting!) heart, thank you, and I look forward to working alongside all of you in 2009. All the best -- /Daniel P. Brown daniel.br...@parasane.net || danbr...@php.net http://www.parasane.net/ || http://www.pilotpig.net/ Unadvertised dedicated server deals, too low to print - email me to find out! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Congrats on the new critter to be...they are a lot of fun after the first year of eating sleeping and pooping ;-) -- Bastien Cat, the other other white meat
Re: [PHP] Since I speak with some of you more than people I see in person....
And as a side note (some of you already know): for my wife and I closing out the year, we heard the heartbeat of our first child for the first time today in the ultrasound. Congrats on the new critter to be...they are a lot of fun after the first year of eating sleeping and pooping ;-) -- Bastien Don't forget the crying right before the pooping . . . ;) Kirk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Since I speak with some of you more than people I see in person....
On Tue, 2008-12-30 at 16:32 -0500, Daniel Brown wrote: To hell with being on-topic, since this list is generally never on-topic for an entire thread anyway. This has been a roller-coaster year for some of us --- certainly myself included --- but the year has come to a close. I want to take a moment to wish each and every one of you a safe and wonderful new year. May 2009 be ten times healthier, happier, and more prosperous to you and yours than the three best years of your life so far, and may each year beyond that be better even than the one before. And as a side note (some of you already know): for my wife and I closing out the year, we heard the heartbeat of our first child for the first time today in the ultrasound. Nothing else will ever again matter as much to me as what I am about to embark upon. I don't think any song or sound I've ever heard in my entire life was as beautiful as those few seconds. My heart literally feels so full that it could burst at any moment. Congratulations Dan. You'll possibly find, depending on the temperament of your up and coming bundle of love, that silence can, at times, sound even more beautiful :) Trust me, we're 3 months in with the third. But having said that, I love the little critters and there's not once I've looked back... except to look over some old photos or vids :) All the best in 2009 to you and everyone else on the list. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP telnet server
That supersocket class certainly seems good enough to get me started, thanks everyone! On Tue, 30 Dec 2008, Manuel Lemos wrote: Hello, There are plenty of ready to use solutions to build TCP servers. Here are some of them: Simple TCP Daemon http://www.phpclasses.org/daemon Generic socket based networking servers http://www.phpclasses.org/clssocket Implement TCP socket server scripts http://www.phpclasses.org/flosocket Implement TCP/IP client and servers http://www.phpclasses.org/net Implement TCP socket servers http://www.phpclasses.org/simpleserver Handle multiple TCP socket connections http://www.phpclasses.org/supersocket Build TCP socket networking servers http://www.phpclasses.org/qserv -- Regards, Manuel Lemos Find and post PHP jobs http://www.phpclasses.org/jobs/ PHP Classes - Free ready to use OOP components written in PHP http://www.phpclasses.org/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Since I speak with some of you more than people I see in person....
2008/12/30 Daniel Brown danbr...@php.net: This has been a roller-coaster year for some of us --- certainly myself included --- but the year has come to a close. I want to take a moment to wish each and every one of you a safe and wonderful new year. May 2009 be ten times healthier, happier, and more prosperous to you and yours than the three best years of your life so far, and may each year beyond that be better even than the one before. Did you forget to remove the fortune in your cookie before you ate it? And as a side note (some of you already know): for my wife and I closing out the year, we heard the heartbeat of our first child for the first time today in the ultrasound. Nothing else will ever again matter as much to me as what I am about to embark upon. I don't think any song or sound I've ever heard in my entire life was as beautiful as those few seconds. My heart literally feels so full that it could burst at any moment. Dammit, I promised myself I wouldn't cry this year!! Seriously mate, that rocks. Good luck with it all, and keep us posted. My sister's having one in Feb but I think they're more scared than anything else at the moment. To all of you, thank you for being a part of the PHP project, and many of you professional and personal parts of my life. Of all of the communities I've been involved in the last sixteen years or so, this has always been my favorite. And it's because of you folks. Aww, shucks! From the bottom of my (bursting!) heart, thank you, and I look forward to working alongside all of you in 2009. Likewise. Personally I have a lot of change planned for 2009 so I already know it's gonna be turbulent and difficult, but nothing worthwhile comes easy and I know it's gonna be worth it! Anyone got an interesting resolution beyond the usual drinking/smoking/eating less? I intend to spend less non-work hours sat in front of a computer and blog/twitter more. Those two are probably mutually exclusive but I'm giving it a shot ;-) Happy new year all. -Stuart -- http://stut.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Since I speak with some of you more than people I see in person....
At 4:32 PM -0500 12/30/08, Daniel Brown wrote: To hell with being on-topic, since this list is generally never on-topic for an entire thread anyway. This has been a roller-coaster year for some of us --- certainly myself included --- but the year has come to a close. I want to take a moment to wish each and every one of you a safe and wonderful new year. May 2009 be ten times healthier, happier, and more prosperous to you and yours than the three best years of your life so far, and may each year beyond that be better even than the one before. And as a side note (some of you already know): for my wife and I closing out the year, we heard the heartbeat of our first child for the first time today in the ultrasound. Nothing else will ever again matter as much to me as what I am about to embark upon. I don't think any song or sound I've ever heard in my entire life was as beautiful as those few seconds. My heart literally feels so full that it could burst at any moment. To all of you, thank you for being a part of the PHP project, and many of you professional and personal parts of my life. Of all of the communities I've been involved in the last sixteen years or so, this has always been my favorite. And it's because of you folks. From the bottom of my (bursting!) heart, thank you, and I look forward to working alongside all of you in 2009. All the best -- /Daniel P. Brown Ahhh, you made me all teary-eyed. Best wishes to you and yours -- I am sure the best is yet to come. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Webhotel structure
At 5:44 PM +0200 12/30/08, Dotan Cohen wrote: 1) Webhotel is called web hosting in English. 2) Everythink should probably be everything. Everythink sounds like you are thying to think about the entire universe at the same Dotan: Thanks for the clarification -- I was thinking it could have been a collection of those Jef Foxworthy definitions, such as: We're gona rent out a room and call ourselves 'We B Hotel' or Everythink about getin' a job? However, those may not translate well for those not accustom to abusing the English language for fun and profit. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Since I speak with some of you more than people I see in person....
On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 2:22 PM, tedd tedd.sperl...@gmail.com wrote: At 4:32 PM -0500 12/30/08, Daniel Brown wrote: To hell with being on-topic, since this list is generally never on-topic for an entire thread anyway. This has been a roller-coaster year for some of us --- certainly myself included --- but the year has come to a close. I want to take a moment to wish each and every one of you a safe and wonderful new year. May 2009 be ten times healthier, happier, and more prosperous to you and yours than the three best years of your life so far, and may each year beyond that be better even than the one before. And as a side note (some of you already know): for my wife and I closing out the year, we heard the heartbeat of our first child for the first time today in the ultrasound. Nothing else will ever again matter as much to me as what I am about to embark upon. I don't think any song or sound I've ever heard in my entire life was as beautiful as those few seconds. My heart literally feels so full that it could burst at any moment. To all of you, thank you for being a part of the PHP project, and many of you professional and personal parts of my life. Of all of the communities I've been involved in the last sixteen years or so, this has always been my favorite. And it's because of you folks. From the bottom of my (bursting!) heart, thank you, and I look forward to working alongside all of you in 2009. All the best -- /Daniel P. Brown Ahhh, you made me all teary-eyed. Best wishes to you and yours -- I am sure the best is yet to come. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Wish you a very happy new year guys !!! Have fun and lets do more PHPing :) Thanks, V
[PHP] Is MD5 still considered safe for storing application user passwords?
Hi All, I've been vaguely aware that more and more effort is going into proving that MD5 isn't secure anymore, but this article in particular - http://www.win.tue.nl/hashclash/rogue-ca/ - has me wondering if MD5 is still safe for storing hashed user passwords? I realise that article is talking about a very different use of an attack on MD5, but I'm curious if other developers are still using MD5, or if another hashing algorithm is considered better? Many thanks for any advice, M is for Murray http://www.ulblog.org
Re: [PHP] Is MD5 still considered safe for storing application user passwords?
I would guess that a properly salted hash would still be safe enough for most sites. Just a hash of the password is not enough as there are readily available hash tables where you can look up the password just by supplying the hash. Sha-1 is a better alternative for hashing but I would still suggest using a salt value. Bastien Sent from my iPod On Dec 30, 2008, at 9:02 PM, Murray planetthought...@gmail.com wrote: Hi All, I've been vaguely aware that more and more effort is going into proving that MD5 isn't secure anymore, but this article in particular - http://www.win.tue.nl/hashclash/rogue-ca/ - has me wondering if MD5 is still safe for storing hashed user passwords? I realise that article is talking about a very different use of an attack on MD5, but I'm curious if other developers are still using MD5, or if another hashing algorithm is considered better? Many thanks for any advice, M is for Murray http://www.ulblog.org -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Is MD5 still considered safe for storing application user passwords?
On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 9:02 PM, Murray planetthought...@gmail.com wrote: Hi All, I've been vaguely aware that more and more effort is going into proving that MD5 isn't secure anymore, but this article in particular - http://www.win.tue.nl/hashclash/rogue-ca/ - has me wondering if MD5 is still safe for storing hashed user passwords? I realise that article is talking about a very different use of an attack on MD5, but I'm curious if other developers are still using MD5, or if another hashing algorithm is considered better? Many thanks for any advice, M is for Murray http://www.ulblog.org Yeah, it's been proven several years ago (1998 rings a bell for some reason, but I'm not sure) that MD5 has some security vulnerabilities. If I recall correctly, even SHA-1 has had some collision vulnerabilities. I personally use salted SHA-512 hashes for storing my passwords. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Encryption/decryption of PHP data
My client application needs to send data to a PHP page in encrypted form and have the PHP code able to decrypt it. Likewise the PHP code needs to return data to my application encrypted and my client application needs to be able to decrypt it. My application is written in C++ and naturally the PHP page is written in PHP. I do understand that public key-private key cryptography is the way to go. So far my Internet search has turrned up GnuPG as a means of doing public key-private key cryptography for PHP with libraries for C++ also. However the client application is a commercial application and unless I misunderstand the GNU General Public License the software of the application which uses GnuPG must allow its source to be freely available in order to use the library. This is of course something which I am completely unwilling to do for the commercial application. Is there any other public key-private key cryptography solution on the PHP side which also has a C++ library which I can use for the client application, which does not adhere to the GNU General Public License ? This does not have to be a free product. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Webhotel structure
2008/12/31 tedd tedd.sperl...@gmail.com: Everythink about getin' a job? There's that word again! You keep using that word. I do not think that it means what you think it means. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
