RE: [PHP] Done w/ PHP - VB or C# ?
(25) - Here's a virtual quarter, call someone who cares. Original Message- From: Phil Schwarzmann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 5:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [PHP] Done w/ PHP - VB or C# ? I know I'll get mauled big-time on this mailing list but I'm thinking about putting PHP on hold for a while and learning ASP.NET I love PHP and open-source computing but if one wants to get a job in web development, you'll have a much better time find a job with both PHP and ASP (among others) skills. I'm going to hop on the ASP bandwagon but I'm not sure if I should first learn ASP w/ VB or w/ C# Any thoughts on this? What are the pros and cons of both? Thanks! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Done w/ PHP - VB or C# ?
Miguel Cruz wrote: snip all the power of DOS batchfiles. Every single thing you want to do - even basic filesystem operations like working with directories and file permissions!!! - requires purchasing expensive and buggy .COM components from nasty little companies with horrible documentation and nonexistent customer service. I consider it an incredibly developer-hostile environment (unless you're in the business of developing developer tools, which seems to be the lynchpin of the ASP ponzi scheme). As much as I'm not a fan of ASP (2 or 2.5, not worked with 3 much), I'd have to say that you could definitely at least read a directory's contents without having to purchase external libraries. Please don't go overboard. Wouldn't it be cool if you didn't have to be a C programmer to write PHP extensions that you could distribute to others (whether for profit or not)? I certainly think so, but it's currently not possible right now. All those nasty little companies you mention are making some money because they can program VB, wrap up stuff as DLLs, and sell them. They see a need in the ASP community and address it, while being able to make some money too. What a novel concept! Your choices are your own, but it's always seemed to me that it makes more sense to be focus on being really good at something fun, than to spread out to things that every other loser is already doing. It's all perspective. I'm not saying everyone who does PHP is a loser, but I have met more than a few losers who happen to work in PHP. Same with every other language. Insofar as it can be said about a programming language, PHP is actually fun - in a way that only Perl seems to match (though Perl is certainly a more frustrating kind of fun). As for .NET, I thought I just read that Microsoft was pulling everything in for a rethink because of all the negative reactions it was getting. Where the heck did you read that? Do you know what .NET is? Glad that you do, because most other people don't - there really isn't a good definition, so it's hard to say someone 'pulled everything in'. What MS has done is retarget the 'hailstorm' service to corporate intranets looking to do internal authentication as opposed to a public authentication system. Hardly retracting .NET from the scene. There's a lot of interesting concepts in the .NET codebase out there now (ASP.NET webforms, for example) as well as other platforms (Java springs to mind). Just because it's not PHP shouldn't mean you ignore it or worse yet, publicly denigrate it. Michael Kimsal http://www.logicreate.com/ 734-480-9961 -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Done w/ PHP - VB or C# ?
On Thu, 16 May 2002, Michael Kimsal wrote: Miguel Cruz wrote: all the power of DOS batchfiles. Every single thing you want to do - even basic filesystem operations like working with directories and file permissions!!! - requires purchasing expensive and buggy .COM components from nasty little companies with horrible documentation and nonexistent customer service. I consider it an incredibly developer-hostile environment (unless you're in the business of developing developer tools, which seems to be the lynchpin of the ASP ponzi scheme). As much as I'm not a fan of ASP (2 or 2.5, not worked with 3 much), I'd have to say that you could definitely at least read a directory's contents without having to purchase external libraries. Please don't go overboard. It's been a while, but I remember that it was impossible to create a functional directory browser with off-the-shelf ASP functionality. The file component was categorically unwilling to follow mounted shares until we got some extra add-in. This was after a month of debate in newsgroup microsoft.public.this.that.the-other-thing, and plenty of experimentation during which I discovered, reported, and was contacted by MS engineers about more bugs than I've ever encountered in PHP. Wouldn't it be cool if you didn't have to be a C programmer to write PHP extensions that you could distribute to others (whether for profit or not)? I certainly think so, but it's currently not possible right now. All those nasty little companies you mention are making some money because they can program VB, wrap up stuff as DLLs, and sell them. They see a need in the ASP community and address it, while being able to make some money too. What a novel concept! I don't think it's a bad thing that they see a niche and try to fill it. I think it's a bad thing from the web developer's perspective that there are so many unfilled niches. Furthermore, in contrast to the PHP/Open Source world I find the profiteering got annoying after a while. It was a drag just having to fill out a P.O. every week to buy another ridiculous little thing that may or may not be production-quality and had a no-refund policy. And the fact is, most of those little companies provide wretched documentation and support, and there is no real onlne user community in the Windows world to exchange information with. Well, there are lots of users, but the ratio of crap-to-usefulness in the fora is so high that finding information is painful at best. It's all perspective. I'm not saying everyone who does PHP is a loser, but I have met more than a few losers who happen to work in PHP. Same with every other language. No doubt. But a development environment that's the centerpiece of every late-night-TV-commercial Are you tired of your Burger Hut job? We'll teach you to be a computer programmer earning $70k/year in only 3 weeks!!! tech school is bound to have a higher percentage of losers than others. As for .NET, I thought I just read that Microsoft was pulling everything in for a rethink because of all the negative reactions it was getting. Where the heck did you read that? Do you know what .NET is? Slashdot. And no, to be honest. There's a lot of interesting concepts in the .NET codebase out there now (ASP.NET webforms, for example) as well as other platforms (Java springs to mind). Just because it's not PHP shouldn't mean you ignore it or worse yet, publicly denigrate it. Public denigration of what I don't understand is how I strike out at a callous world that's denied me my just deserts: fame, millions, and a torrid love affair with Nancy Reagan. Either address the fundamental injustice here or cut me some slack. miguel -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Done w/ PHP - VB or C# ?
Miguel Cruz wrote: Public denigration of what I don't understand is how I strike out at a callous world that's denied me my just deserts: fame, millions, and a torrid love affair with Nancy Reagan. Either address the fundamental injustice here or cut me some slack. Couldn't have said it better *heheheh* Cheers, Rob. -- .-. | Robert Cummings | :-`. | Webdeployer - Chief PHP and Java Programmer | :--: | Mail : mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Phone : (613) 731-4046 x.109 | :--: | Website : http://www.webmotion.com | | Fax : (613) 260-9545 | `--' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Done w/ PHP - VB or C# ?
Miguel Cruz wrote: snip As much as I'm not a fan of ASP (2 or 2.5, not worked with 3 much), I'd have to say that you could definitely at least read a directory's contents without having to purchase external libraries. Please don't go overboard. It's been a while, but I remember that it was impossible to create a functional directory browser with off-the-shelf ASP functionality. The file component was categorically unwilling to follow mounted shares until we got some extra add-in. This was after a month of debate in newsgroup microsoft.public.this.that.the-other-thing, and plenty of experimentation during which I discovered, reported, and was contacted by MS engineers about more bugs than I've ever encountered in PHP. This isn't specifically ASP, but NT permissions in general. PHP running under off the shelf Windows can't access shares either. I don't think it's a bad thing that they see a niche and try to fill it. I think it's a bad thing from the web developer's perspective that there are so many unfilled niches. Furthermore, in contrast to the PHP/Open Source world I find the profiteering got annoying after a while. It was a drag just having to fill out a P.O. every week to buy another ridiculous little thing that may or may not be production-quality and had a no-refund policy. And the fact is, most of those little companies provide wretched documentation and support, and there is no real onlne user community in the Windows world to exchange information with. Well, there are lots of users, but the ratio of crap-to-usefulness in the fora is so high that finding information is painful at best. Honestly, I find that now in the PHP community as well, to a larger extent than I used to, but perhaps it's because I/we aren't in the 'sessions v cookies' mentality anymore. Compiling GD support, for one, is a pain in the ass which you can't get really get good support for, due to the variety of systems. Servlet support as well. Java support has gotten better, but it generally just magically happens. I don't think I've had too many deep technical issues that have been resolved with help from the PHP community. Not because they're 'lesser' people, but we're trying to do stuff that most people don't do. It'd be like trying to get JScript support at an ASP site. Yeah, JScript works with ASP, but no one really uses it much, compared to VBScript. Where the heck did you read that? Do you know what .NET is? Slashdot. And no, to be honest. :) Great answer. Honestly. There's a lot of interesting concepts in the .NET codebase out there now (ASP.NET webforms, for example) as well as other platforms (Java springs to mind). Just because it's not PHP shouldn't mean you ignore it or worse yet, publicly denigrate it. Public denigration of what I don't understand is how I strike out at a callous world that's denied me my just deserts: fame, millions, and a torrid love affair with Nancy Reagan. Either address the fundamental injustice here or cut me some slack. Not sure how old you are or when you had this thing for Nancy - never been 'fanciable' since I've known her (but maybe I'm too much of a youngster). Michael Kimsal http://www.logicreate.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
FW: [PHP] Done w/ PHP - VB or C# ?
For me personally I find working with ASP .NET to be a pain in the butt, yeah sure you can to use all the fancy GUI's that can take care of some code for you etc.. but then there's the argument about php and having to write the code your self. Personally I find that a better approach as for me it's all about learning and achieving because at the end of the day you can sit back and look at it and go wow I did that from scratch from line 1 of code etc. Basically it all comes down to personal preference. I'm coming from a back ground which doesn't include much programming at all (which can be seen by some of the dumb q's i've posted in here...) and I guess that using something with a prodominately (think that's how it's spelt) gui workings and that takes care of alot of code for me should be more appealing but it's not any way basically YOU have to decide what's best for you and that your happy with the choices that you've made as in the end it's you that's got to live with them. that's my 2 cents Peter -Original Message- From: Phil Schwarzmann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, 16 May 2002 7:03 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [PHP] Done w/ PHP - VB or C# ? I know I'll get mauled big-time on this mailing list but I'm thinking about putting PHP on hold for a while and learning ASP.NET I love PHP and open-source computing but if one wants to get a job in web development, you'll have a much better time find a job with both PHP and ASP (among others) skills. I'm going to hop on the ASP bandwagon but I'm not sure if I should first learn ASP w/ VB or w/ C# Any thoughts on this? What are the pros and cons of both? Thanks! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Done w/ PHP - VB or C# ?
Does anyone know if there is any global reliable and free :-) statistics on usage of PHP vs ASP. I am having the same dilemma., do I need to stick to going deeply into PHP (which in my opinion rulez!!) or start paying more attention to ASP... Best Regards, Victor Polyushko - Original Message - From: Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Php [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 4:52 PM Subject: FW: [PHP] Done w/ PHP - VB or C# ? For me personally I find working with ASP .NET to be a pain in the butt, yeah sure you can to use all the fancy GUI's that can take care of some code for you etc.. but then there's the argument about php and having to write the code your self. Personally I find that a better approach as for me it's all about learning and achieving because at the end of the day you can sit back and look at it and go wow I did that from scratch from line 1 of code etc. Basically it all comes down to personal preference. I'm coming from a back ground which doesn't include much programming at all (which can be seen by some of the dumb q's i've posted in here...) and I guess that using something with a prodominately (think that's how it's spelt) gui workings and that takes care of alot of code for me should be more appealing but it's not any way basically YOU have to decide what's best for you and that your happy with the choices that you've made as in the end it's you that's got to live with them. that's my 2 cents Peter -Original Message- From: Phil Schwarzmann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, 16 May 2002 7:03 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [PHP] Done w/ PHP - VB or C# ? I know I'll get mauled big-time on this mailing list but I'm thinking about putting PHP on hold for a while and learning ASP.NET I love PHP and open-source computing but if one wants to get a job in web development, you'll have a much better time find a job with both PHP and ASP (among others) skills. I'm going to hop on the ASP bandwagon but I'm not sure if I should first learn ASP w/ VB or w/ C# Any thoughts on this? What are the pros and cons of both? Thanks! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Done w/ PHP - VB or C# ?
On Thu, 16 May 2002, Victor Polyushko wrote: Does anyone know if there is any global reliable and free :-) statistics on usage of PHP vs ASP. I am having the same dilemma., do I need to stick to going deeply into PHP (which in my opinion rulez!!) or start paying more attention to ASP... I think it's pretty hard to measure usage... what would a meaningful metric be? Number of servers with ASP available? Number of virtual hosts? Number of page views served by ASP vs PHP? Number of active developers? miguel -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Done w/ PHP - VB or C# ?
hmm.. good question, I guess number of active job openings will be the best measure :-)) (or websites using PHP vs ASP) - Original Message - From: Miguel Cruz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Victor Polyushko [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Php [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 5:11 PM Subject: Re: [PHP] Done w/ PHP - VB or C# ? On Thu, 16 May 2002, Victor Polyushko wrote: Does anyone know if there is any global reliable and free :-) statistics on usage of PHP vs ASP. I am having the same dilemma., do I need to stick to going deeply into PHP (which in my opinion rulez!!) or start paying more attention to ASP... I think it's pretty hard to measure usage... what would a meaningful metric be? Number of servers with ASP available? Number of virtual hosts? Number of page views served by ASP vs PHP? Number of active developers? miguel -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Done w/ PHP - VB or C# ?
I think he was meaning in terms of PHP can do this ASP can't .. ASP can do that this way and PHP does it that way.. etc.. -Original Message- From: Miguel Cruz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, 17 May 2002 10:11 AM To: Victor Polyushko Cc: Php Subject: Re: [PHP] Done w/ PHP - VB or C# ? On Thu, 16 May 2002, Victor Polyushko wrote: Does anyone know if there is any global reliable and free :-) statistics on usage of PHP vs ASP. I am having the same dilemma., do I need to stick to going deeply into PHP (which in my opinion rulez!!) or start paying more attention to ASP... I think it's pretty hard to measure usage... what would a meaningful metric be? Number of servers with ASP available? Number of virtual hosts? Number of page views served by ASP vs PHP? Number of active developers? miguel -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Done w/ PHP - VB or C# ?
I know I'll get mauled big-time on this mailing list but I'm thinking about putting PHP on hold for a while and learning ASP.NET I love PHP and open-source computing but if one wants to get a job in web development, you'll have a much better time find a job with both PHP and ASP (among others) skills. I'm going to hop on the ASP bandwagon but I'm not sure if I should first learn ASP w/ VB or w/ C# Any thoughts on this? What are the pros and cons of both? Thanks!
Re: [PHP] Done w/ PHP - VB or C# ?
On Wed, 15 May 2002, Phil Schwarzmann wrote: I know I'll get mauled big-time on this mailing list but I'm thinking about putting PHP on hold for a while and learning ASP.NET I love PHP and open-source computing but if one wants to get a job in web development, you'll have a much better time find a job with both PHP and ASP (among others) skills. I'm going to hop on the ASP bandwagon but I'm not sure if I should first learn ASP w/ VB or w/ C# Any thoughts on this? What are the pros and cons of both? I worked with ASP/VBScript for about a year when I was with a government agency that had standardized on it. My thought is this: I'd rather change jobs to tongue-clean toilets at an Nigerian truck stop than go through that again. You won't believe how verbose and weak the language is. Imagine all the hassle of Java coupled all the power of DOS batchfiles. Every single thing you want to do - even basic filesystem operations like working with directories and file permissions!!! - requires purchasing expensive and buggy .COM components from nasty little companies with horrible documentation and nonexistent customer service. I consider it an incredibly developer-hostile environment (unless you're in the business of developing developer tools, which seems to be the lynchpin of the ASP ponzi scheme). Your choices are your own, but it's always seemed to me that it makes more sense to be focus on being really good at something fun, than to spread out to things that every other loser is already doing. Insofar as it can be said about a programming language, PHP is actually fun - in a way that only Perl seems to match (though Perl is certainly a more frustrating kind of fun). As for .NET, I thought I just read that Microsoft was pulling everything in for a rethink because of all the negative reactions it was getting. miguel -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
