Re: [PHP] PHP is a Bloated Kludge, discuss!
Don't feed the troll.. Php [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... On a conceptual level, I for one am a great fan of the kludge. Every piece of software is a trade off between performance and speed of development. You can have the fastest app in the world for $1,000,000 in development time OR you can write up a in-elegant solution in 5minutes ($50) and if its slow buy a bigger server for $5000. You choose. Taken in relation to PHP. I would rather have the developers of it release new code that is not optimized, then have 1 release every two years, full of very pretty blocks of code designed to make the hardcore OOP textbook fanatic orgasm. Check out mozilla.org if you want to see what elegant programmers can do. - 2 years later a web browser intended to be small and fast, can know take out your trash, wash your car - and guess what? no release 1.0 yet. Sean -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] PHP is a Bloated Kludge, discuss!
On a conceptual level, I for one am a great fan of the kludge. Every piece of software is a trade off between performance and speed of development. You can have the fastest app in the world for $1,000,000 in development time OR you can write up a in-elegant solution in 5minutes ($50) and if its slow buy a bigger server for $5000. You choose. Taken in relation to PHP. I would rather have the developers of it release new code that is not optimized, then have 1 release every two years, full of very pretty blocks of code designed to make the hardcore OOP textbook fanatic orgasm. Check out mozilla.org if you want to see what elegant programmers can do. - 2 years later a web browser intended to be small and fast, can know take out your trash, wash your car - and guess what? no release 1.0 yet. Sean -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] PHP is a Bloated Kludge, discuss!
At 4:48 PM +0200 10/4/01, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (From behind filing cabinet where I am ducking preparing for flames). Is it just me or is there anyone else that thinks PHP suffers from not being modular. Let me explain myself. If you write a module for a lot of procedural languages it sits on the filling system and is called up when it is needed , loaded into memory and executed. There maybe some cashing which happens but this is basically how it works. PHP on the other hand seems to load in ALL the code that MAY be run. i.e. an include brings things in which are inside an if, even if the if equates to false. Not true; require() has this behavior, but include() does not. See http://php.he.net/manual/en/function.require.php and http://php.he.net/manual/en/function.include.php -steve This means that the language is not extendible in the way others are. If you do write a function you wish to include in 'only the pages you wish to use' you have to first include it, then call it. This has also meant that things like spell checking functions are built into the core module rather than called in as or when they are needed. Then there is the way database connectivity is handled. There are a load of functions (again in the core language) with there NAMES containing the name of the database you are connecting to. For example all MySQL functions are mysql_something and I guess all oracle ones are oracle_something. This would only be a minor inconvenience because wrapper functions can be written but from what I can gather different databases have different functionality available. I know this is partly because different databases have different functionality. what I would expect to see is a load of generic function which attempt to provide same functionality where it is available or implement some of the functionality themselves. Obviously for some of the less sophisticated databases these functions would have to do more work and maybe some functionality wouldn't be available in certain databases (but only the things like stored procedures). If you can deal with the 'lowest common denominator' approach, use ODBC. Or, as you mentioned, use one of the db wrapper classes available in PHPLIB, PEAR or Metabase. -steve -- + Open source questions? + | Steve Edberg University of California, Davis | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computer Consultant | | http://aesric.ucdavis.edu/ http://pgfsun.ucdavis.edu/ | +--- http://pgfsun.ucdavis.edu/open-source-tools.html ---+ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] PHP is a Bloated Kludge, discuss!
PHP on the other hand seems to load in ALL the code that MAY be run. i.e. an include brings things in which are inside an if, even if the if equates to false. That's not true. if(condition) include 'file'; That will only include the file if the condition is true. Very easy to verify for yourself. So a bunch of your points related to this are void. Then there is the way database connectivity is handled. There are a load of functions (again in the core language) with there NAMES containing the name of the database you are connecting to. For example all MySQL functions are mysql_something and I guess all oracle ones are oracle_something. This would only be a minor inconvenience because wrapper functions can be written but from what I can gather different databases have different functionality available. There is both a C-level abstraction layer called dbx and a user-space one in PEAR. Plus a number of others. So again, this makes your next points void. Got a nast feeling that ASP (spit) does something like this. As does PHP if you had bothered to look. -Rasmus -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] PHP is a Bloated Kludge, discuss!
Exelent, as I said I was playing devels advicate, I like PHP a lot, I am
trying to get someone else to use it to and they came up with this stuff.
if(condition) include 'file';
Is exactly what I was looking for. As 'if () {}' loaded, or at least
parsed things I did'nt think another form of if would be different ( RFM-;)
). Maybe I should stop developing for a while and have a good wade through
the manual. Its so easy to do stuff in PHP it's easy to get lazy!
Thanks,
Ben
Rasmus Lerdorf [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 04/10/2001 18:21:28
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] PHP is a Bloated Kludge, discuss!
PHP on the other hand seems to load in ALL the code that MAY be run. i.e.
an include brings things in which are inside an if, even if the if
equates
to false.
That's not true.
if(condition) include 'file';
That will only include the file if the condition is true. Very easy to
verify for yourself. So a bunch of your points related to this are void.
Then there is the way database connectivity is handled.
There are a load of functions (again in the core language) with there
NAMES
containing the name of the database you are connecting to.
For example all MySQL functions are mysql_something and I guess all
oracle
ones are oracle_something. This would only be a minor inconvenience
because wrapper functions can be written but from what I can gather
different databases have different functionality available.
There is both a C-level abstraction layer called dbx and a user-space one
in PEAR. Plus a number of others. So again, this makes your next points
void.
Got a nast feeling that ASP (spit) does something like this.
As does PHP if you had bothered to look.
-Rasmus
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Re: [PHP] PHP is a Bloated Kludge, discuss!
Exelent, as I said I was playing devels advicate, I like PHP a lot, I am
trying to get someone else to use it to and they came up with this stuff.
if(condition) include 'file';
Is exactly what I was looking for. As 'if () {}' loaded, or at least
parsed things I did'nt think another form of if would be different ( RFM-;)
). Maybe I should stop developing for a while and have a good wade through
the manual. Its so easy to do stuff in PHP it's easy to get lazy!
if(condition) {
include 'file';
}
is no different.
-Rasmus
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PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
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RE: [PHP] PHP is a Bloated Kludge, discuss!
(From behind filing cabinet where I am ducking preparing for flames). Is it just me or is there anyone else that thinks PHP suffers from not being modular. It is just you and some other people similar to you. Thought this question was up for a while :-) PHP on the other hand seems to load in ALL the code that MAY be run. i.e. an include brings things in which are inside an if, even if the if equates to false. Is it really true? I always though it wasn't. AFAIN: Long time ago require() was working this way. But now, require() and include() are the same. Loaded only when needed. This means that the language is not extendible in the way others are. If you do write a function you wish to include in 'only the pages you wish to use' you have to first include it, then call it. Well, it has it's pluses and it's minuses, it is extendable, though OOD works a little different in it. But hey, it compiles on the fly, remember? That's a plus for developers, especially newbies. This has also meant that things like spell checking functions are built into the core module rather than called in as or when they are needed. Then there is the way database connectivity is handled. There are a load of functions (again in the core language) with there NAMES containing the name of the database you are connecting to. OK, true. But, this is necessary if you want PHP to automatically connect to different DBs. A plus to portability and a minus to... (to what?) For example all MySQL functions are mysql_something and I guess all oracle ones are oracle_something. This would only be a minor inconvenience because wrapper functions can be written but from what I can gather different databases have different functionality available. That is why Sascha Sunmann wrote PHPLIB and (Stig?) Bakken created PEAR (released with every PHP distribution, btw - just waiting for you to use it) phplib.netuse.de php.net/pear I know this is partly because different databases have different functionality. what I would expect to see is a load of generic function which attempt to provide same functionality where it is available or implement some of the functionality themselves. Obviously for some of the less sophisticated databases these functions would have to do more work and maybe some functionality wouldn't be available in certain databases (but only the things like stored procedures). Got a nast feeling that ASP (spit) does something like this. You may cry, it cant be done. however I remember a connectivity product that came from Borland (this was back in the Paradox Days) which did just this, it even had transaction handling built into this connectivity layer for DBase! Anyway I am playing Devils Advocate. We all play it once at least ;-) What I do like about PHP is how quickly it can be learnt and how quick you can build apps with it. Maybe this is at the expense of elegance. Maybe PHP5 will address these issues -;) Isn't it the greatest thing of it? Just think of this - where else you can become a programmer in a short time? Compliling/executing/libraring/connecting just to make a simple guestbook for your site. And there are certainly some very busy PHP sites, you should see the traffic levels on indymedia.org during anti-capitalist demonstrations and I am sure during the New York attacks they went belistic. Search archives for php sites or something like this. The topic comes up every week or so :-) Maxim Maletsky www.PHPBeginner.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] PHP is a Bloated Kludge, discuss!
PHP on the other hand seems to load in ALL the code that MAY be run. i.e. an include brings things in which are inside an if, even if the if equates to false. A quick check in the manual, it states that: Unlike include(), require() will always read in the target file, even if the line it's on never executes. If you want to conditionally include a file, use include(). The conditional statement won't affect the require(). However, if the line on which the require() occurs is not executed, neither will any of the code in the target file be executed. http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.require.php and http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.require-once.php So to do what you said i.e. conditionally load the function/files that you want then you should use include(). http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.include.php and http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.include-once.php So I don't buy this agument. This is outdated. Look int othe archives - I had this discussion with Zeev close to a year ago - since PHP 4.0.(something) require and include behaves in the exactly same way. Test it yourself on the latest release of PHP: require.test.php ? echo 'included?'; if($go) require 'require.error.test'; ? require.error.test ? echo 'H1yup!/H1'; parse error; ? Access it with: 1. require.test.php?go=e And then try it with: 2. require.test.php What do you buy now? Maxim Maletsky www.PHPBeginner.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] PHP is a Bloated Kludge, discuss!
Of cource changing the require with include would explain everything :-) Sorry, forgot to mention that :-) Maxim Maletsky www.PHPBeginner.com -Original Message- From: Maxim Maletsky (PHPBeginner.com) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: venerdì 5 ottobre 2001 3.33 To: 'Opec Kemp'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] PHP is a Bloated Kludge, discuss! PHP on the other hand seems to load in ALL the code that MAY be run. i.e. an include brings things in which are inside an if, even if the if equates to false. A quick check in the manual, it states that: Unlike include(), require() will always read in the target file, even if the line it's on never executes. If you want to conditionally include a file, use include(). The conditional statement won't affect the require(). However, if the line on which the require() occurs is not executed, neither will any of the code in the target file be executed. http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.require.php and http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.require-once.php So to do what you said i.e. conditionally load the function/files that you want then you should use include(). http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.include.php and http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.include-once.php So I don't buy this agument. This is outdated. Look int othe archives - I had this discussion with Zeev close to a year ago - since PHP 4.0.(something) require and include behaves in the exactly same way. Test it yourself on the latest release of PHP: require.test.php ? echo 'included?'; if($go) require 'require.error.test'; ? require.error.test ? echo 'H1yup!/H1'; parse error; ? Access it with: 1. require.test.php?go=e And then try it with: 2. require.test.php What do you buy now? Maxim Maletsky www.PHPBeginner.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] PHP is a Bloated Kludge, discuss!
I think the implication of the oringal poster was not the include/requires stuff, but more a build of PHP with --enable-100 options vs php-sharedetc -Original Message- From: Maxim Maletsky (PHPBeginner.com) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, 5 October 2001 11:33 AM To: 'Opec Kemp'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] PHP is a Bloated Kludge, discuss! PHP on the other hand seems to load in ALL the code that MAY be run. i.e. an include brings things in which are inside an if, even if the if equates to false. A quick check in the manual, it states that: Unlike include(), require() will always read in the target file, even if the line it's on never executes. If you want to conditionally include a file, use include(). The conditional statement won't affect the require(). However, if the line on which the require() occurs is not executed, neither will any of the code in the target file be executed. http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.require.php and http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.require-once.php So to do what you said i.e. conditionally load the function/files that you want then you should use include(). http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.include.php and http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.include-once.php So I don't buy this agument. This is outdated. Look int othe archives - I had this discussion with Zeev close to a year ago - since PHP 4.0.(something) require and include behaves in the exactly same way. Test it yourself on the latest release of PHP: require.test.php ? echo 'included?'; if($go) require 'require.error.test'; ? require.error.test ? echo 'H1yup!/H1'; parse error; ? Access it with: 1. require.test.php?go=e And then try it with: 2. require.test.php What do you buy now? Maxim Maletsky www.PHPBeginner.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] PHP is a Bloated Kludge, discuss!
conditionally load the function/files that you want then you should use include(). Was the implication of the poster I replied to. To the original I replied commenting each of his arguments, therefore I knew his points. Maxim Maletsky www.PHPBeginner.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
