Re: [PHP] Working with designers...
Hmm... can you point out to them that there's a similarity between using an external style sheet and using header/footer includes? And that as a coder, it would be your responsibility to maintain these include files, not theirs? Personally, I think .css external style sheets are awesome -- there's no reason I can see that they couldn't continue to use them. You don't need control over the .css file, and it would be easy for you to do in the include header, which gives them control over the contents of the
Re: [PHP] Working with designers...
Maybe you have never had to deal with a dreamweaver created web page, but it deposits little javascript code all over the page for decoration. Apparently the dreamweaver designers pick components like rollover menu images etc and dreamweaver gladly disperses the javascript code throughout the document. Assuming the href's are going to be dynamic to account for GET variables then the php coder has to dig through the javascript to place a php element or generate the javascript dynamically, which is apparently what these designers were trying to avoid. i.e. they did not want anyone touching their beautifully created dreamweaver document. Fred Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:00:09 -0800, Fred wrote: > >Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message >[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... >well, you don't have to wade through all that html, just put an >include() in there to a file that has all the php in it. then >dreamweaver should leave it alone. > >Huh? > >Obviously the logic can be included, but the output functions need >to be >burried deep in dreamweaver created nested tables and javascripts. hmm, I'm assuming that javascript is the programmer's responsibility, not the designer's. Maybe the javascript needs to be dynamically generated, probably it doesn't. either way it's in a separate file doesn't get edited in dreamweaver. I understand that the php will probably have to be in a table and the designer's will want to be able to change it's appearance, and that's where css comes in. i.e.: yes, there's some html in the included file, but the designer's don't need to have access to it because they can just change how it looks in the stylesheet. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Working with designers...
On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:37:07 -0800, Jim Lucas wrote: >well, the class tag in the tr won't work with ns6 , but fortunately >for you >( sigh ) ns 6 does include the div tag. well, I don't know what a designer would really want to do with tr anyway but you got the general idea of what I'm saying. >- Original Message - >From: "Mike Eheler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 4:28 PM >Subject: Re: [PHP] Working with designers... > > >> LOL. >> >> Use Netscape 4. >> >> Now there's a condtradiction you don't hear every day. >> >> Mike >> >> Jim Lucas wrote: >> >> > hope you don't plan to use that example table in netscape 4.x >> > >> > - Original Message ----- >> > From: "Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; >[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 4:10 PM >> > Subject: Re: [PHP] Working with designers... >> > >> > >> > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:00:09 -0800, Fred wrote: >> > >> >>Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message >> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... >> >>well, you don't have to wade through all that html, just put an >> >>include() in there to a file that has all the php in it. then >> >>dreamweaver should leave it alone. >> >> >> >>Huh? >> >> >> >>Obviously the logic can be included, but the output functions >>need >> >>to be >> >>burried deep in dreamweaver created nested tables and >>javascripts. >> >> >> > >> > hmm, >> > I'm assuming that javascript is the programmer's responsibility, >>not >> > the designer's. Maybe the javascript needs to be dynamically >> > generated, probably it doesn't. either way it's in a separate >>file >> > doesn't get edited in dreamweaver. >> > >> > I understand that the php will probably have to be in a table >>and the >> > designer's will want to be able to change it's appearance, and >>that's >> > where css comes in. i.e.: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >>$dynamic_content?> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > yes, there's some html in the included file, but the designer's >>don't >> > need to have access to it because they can just change how it >>looks >> > in the stylesheet. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> To contact the list administrators, e-mail: php-list- >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> > > -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Working with designers...
well, the class tag in the tr won't work with ns6 , but fortunately for you ( sigh ) ns 6 does include the div tag. - Original Message - From: "Mike Eheler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [PHP] Working with designers... > LOL. > > Use Netscape 4. > > Now there's a condtradiction you don't hear every day. > > Mike > > Jim Lucas wrote: > > > hope you don't plan to use that example table in netscape 4.x > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 4:10 PM > > Subject: Re: [PHP] Working with designers... > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:00:09 -0800, Fred wrote: > > > >>Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message > >>[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > >>well, you don't have to wade through all that html, just put an > >>include() in there to a file that has all the php in it. then > >>dreamweaver should leave it alone. > >> > >>Huh? > >> > >>Obviously the logic can be included, but the output functions need > >>to be > >>burried deep in dreamweaver created nested tables and javascripts. > >> > > > > hmm, > > I'm assuming that javascript is the programmer's responsibility, not > > the designer's. Maybe the javascript needs to be dynamically > > generated, probably it doesn't. either way it's in a separate file > > doesn't get edited in dreamweaver. > > > > I understand that the php will probably have to be in a table and the > > designer's will want to be able to change it's appearance, and that's > > where css comes in. i.e.: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes, there's some html in the included file, but the designer's don't > > need to have access to it because they can just change how it looks > > in the stylesheet. > > > > > > > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Working with designers...
LOL. Use Netscape 4. Now there's a condtradiction you don't hear every day. Mike Jim Lucas wrote: > hope you don't plan to use that example table in netscape 4.x > > - Original Message - > From: "Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 4:10 PM > Subject: Re: [PHP] Working with designers... > > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:00:09 -0800, Fred wrote: > >>Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message >>[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... >>well, you don't have to wade through all that html, just put an >>include() in there to a file that has all the php in it. then >>dreamweaver should leave it alone. >> >>Huh? >> >>Obviously the logic can be included, but the output functions need >>to be >>burried deep in dreamweaver created nested tables and javascripts. >> > > hmm, > I'm assuming that javascript is the programmer's responsibility, not > the designer's. Maybe the javascript needs to be dynamically > generated, probably it doesn't. either way it's in a separate file > doesn't get edited in dreamweaver. > > I understand that the php will probably have to be in a table and the > designer's will want to be able to change it's appearance, and that's > where css comes in. i.e.: > > > > > > > > > > yes, there's some html in the included file, but the designer's don't > need to have access to it because they can just change how it looks > in the stylesheet. > > > -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Working with designers...
hope you don't plan to use that example table in netscape 4.x - Original Message - From: "Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [PHP] Working with designers... On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:00:09 -0800, Fred wrote: > >Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message >[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... >well, you don't have to wade through all that html, just put an >include() in there to a file that has all the php in it. then >dreamweaver should leave it alone. > >Huh? > >Obviously the logic can be included, but the output functions need >to be >burried deep in dreamweaver created nested tables and javascripts. hmm, I'm assuming that javascript is the programmer's responsibility, not the designer's. Maybe the javascript needs to be dynamically generated, probably it doesn't. either way it's in a separate file doesn't get edited in dreamweaver. I understand that the php will probably have to be in a table and the designer's will want to be able to change it's appearance, and that's where css comes in. i.e.: yes, there's some html in the included file, but the designer's don't need to have access to it because they can just change how it looks in the stylesheet. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Working with designers...
On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:00:09 -0800, Fred wrote: > >Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message >[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... >well, you don't have to wade through all that html, just put an >include() in there to a file that has all the php in it. then >dreamweaver should leave it alone. > >Huh? > >Obviously the logic can be included, but the output functions need >to be >burried deep in dreamweaver created nested tables and javascripts. hmm, I'm assuming that javascript is the programmer's responsibility, not the designer's. Maybe the javascript needs to be dynamically generated, probably it doesn't. either way it's in a separate file doesn't get edited in dreamweaver. I understand that the php will probably have to be in a table and the designer's will want to be able to change it's appearance, and that's where css comes in. i.e.: yes, there's some html in the included file, but the designer's don't need to have access to it because they can just change how it looks in the stylesheet. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Working with designers...
Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... well, you don't have to wade through all that html, just put an include() in there to a file that has all the php in it. then dreamweaver should leave it alone. Huh? Obviously the logic can be included, but the output functions need to be burried deep in dreamweaver created nested tables and javascripts. Fred -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Working with designers...
As a designer and a coder, I have always found that it is easiest to have the layout of the page done before adding the dynamic content. If the layout is done correctly, it should not be necessary to put in sample data that has to be removed after. After joining the workforce, as a database programmer, I now strictly code the backend stuff, and as before, the layouts are done and I simply add the dynamic content. Whatever arrangement you end up with, just make sure the ground rules are in place before you start. It may help to have them written down (I know, coders hate to document), as it will protect you in the future if problems do arise. Good luck, Steve Osborne Database Programmer Chinook Multimedia Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Working with designers...
well, you don't have to wade through all that html, just put an include() in there to a file that has all the php in it. then dreamweaver should leave it alone. really if they don't want to chop the files up into header/footer that shouldn't bother you, it makes their job harder since they have to make changes to hundreds of files instead of one, but the dynamic stuff will still all be in one file that gets include'd a hundred times. - Mark On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:39:14 -0800, Fred wrote: >Yikes! You mean they don't use a text editor to for html? > >Seriously, you do have two choices here and I certainly prefer the >one >suggested below. You may have to talk to the project manager about >the >designer's refusal to allow thier precious dreamweaver source files >to be >chopped up. On the other hand, their insistance on using CSS is >ideal. > >If the project manager does not want the html chopped up then it is >not the >end of the world. > >I recently completed a project where the designer insisted on using >dreamweaver and leaving the html as single files. I wrote the >functions for >everything I needed and placed them in include files. I then >replaced his >sample data with statements and all is well. I'd give you >the URL to >see how seemlessly it works, but it is a porn site and i'd rather >not link >it on the list. > >The moral is that you can certainly be successful in approaching the >project >this way. Personally, I do not like wading through all that html to >figure >out where to put my precious php code, but then again they were >paying the >bills that month. > >Fred > > >Mike Eheler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message >[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... >> They sound like good ideas, with one quisp.. the sites are >>currently >> being designed in *shudder* Dreamweaver. >> >> They absolutely refuse to chop files up into header/footer >>includes, and >> they want to be able to do all their colour customisation through >>their >> beloved .css files. >> >> Mike >> >> Jimtronic wrote: >> >> > >> > I try to seperate the php code from the html as much as >>possible. So, if >> > a page is dynamic, have php figure out the dynamic parts first, >>put them >> > into variables such as $html, or $pull_down_menu, or whatever. >>Then all >> > that needs to replaced in the html is that section. HTML coders >>aren't >> > dumb, so they can be trusted with a simple >>placement. >> > >> > Additionally, I try to seperate php logic from php presentation >>as much >> > as possible. This means creating as many variables as possible >>that >> > affect how things look and then including a conf.php file that >>the >> > coders can also change pretty easily with good documentation. >> > >> > Moving even further in this direction, my logic code calls many >> > presentation functions which I find HTML coders can also >>decipher rather >> > well. You can put these in another include file so your >>designers don't >> > ever have to touch any of your precious logic. >> > >> > Then ... if you have time ... you can make an admin screen to >>change, >> > edit, and preview the finished product. >> > >> > Jim >> > >> >> Hi There, >> >> >> >> I'm looking for some community feedback on being a coder >>working with >> >> designers. Techniques that work that allow my php-inept >>page/graphic >> >> designer comrade make changes to the layout of the page without >> >> destroying my code, or requiring me to make any changes >>whatsoever. >> >> >> >> Or what is the best process? Code the dynamicity (heh -- sad >>thing is >> >> you know what i mean by it) of the site, then integrate a >>designers >> >> HTML into your code, *or* the other way around.. have the >>designer >> >> create the site using all static html files, then go in and >>remove >> >> sample data to be replaced with dynamic data (pulled from a DB, >>for >> >> example). >> >> >> >> I'm about to enter a very large project working with about 3 or >>4 >> >> designers and 2 other coders and any suggestions on making this >> >> relationship work is greatly appreciated. >> >> >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> To contact the list administrators, e-mail: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > >> > >> > >> > > > -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Working with designers...
Yikes! You mean they don't use a text editor to for html? Seriously, you do have two choices here and I certainly prefer the one suggested below. You may have to talk to the project manager about the designer's refusal to allow thier precious dreamweaver source files to be chopped up. On the other hand, their insistance on using CSS is ideal. If the project manager does not want the html chopped up then it is not the end of the world. I recently completed a project where the designer insisted on using dreamweaver and leaving the html as single files. I wrote the functions for everything I needed and placed them in include files. I then replaced his sample data with statements and all is well. I'd give you the URL to see how seemlessly it works, but it is a porn site and i'd rather not link it on the list. The moral is that you can certainly be successful in approaching the project this way. Personally, I do not like wading through all that html to figure out where to put my precious php code, but then again they were paying the bills that month. Fred Mike Eheler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > They sound like good ideas, with one quisp.. the sites are currently > being designed in *shudder* Dreamweaver. > > They absolutely refuse to chop files up into header/footer includes, and > they want to be able to do all their colour customisation through their > beloved .css files. > > Mike > > Jimtronic wrote: > > > > > I try to seperate the php code from the html as much as possible. So, if > > a page is dynamic, have php figure out the dynamic parts first, put them > > into variables such as $html, or $pull_down_menu, or whatever. Then all > > that needs to replaced in the html is that section. HTML coders aren't > > dumb, so they can be trusted with a simple placement. > > > > Additionally, I try to seperate php logic from php presentation as much > > as possible. This means creating as many variables as possible that > > affect how things look and then including a conf.php file that the > > coders can also change pretty easily with good documentation. > > > > Moving even further in this direction, my logic code calls many > > presentation functions which I find HTML coders can also decipher rather > > well. You can put these in another include file so your designers don't > > ever have to touch any of your precious logic. > > > > Then ... if you have time ... you can make an admin screen to change, > > edit, and preview the finished product. > > > > Jim > > > >> Hi There, > >> > >> I'm looking for some community feedback on being a coder working with > >> designers. Techniques that work that allow my php-inept page/graphic > >> designer comrade make changes to the layout of the page without > >> destroying my code, or requiring me to make any changes whatsoever. > >> > >> Or what is the best process? Code the dynamicity (heh -- sad thing is > >> you know what i mean by it) of the site, then integrate a designers > >> HTML into your code, *or* the other way around.. have the designer > >> create the site using all static html files, then go in and remove > >> sample data to be replaced with dynamic data (pulled from a DB, for > >> example). > >> > >> I'm about to enter a very large project working with about 3 or 4 > >> designers and 2 other coders and any suggestions on making this > >> relationship work is greatly appreciated. > >> > >> Mike > >> > >> > >> -- > >> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Working with designers...
They sound like good ideas, with one quisp.. the sites are currently being designed in *shudder* Dreamweaver. They absolutely refuse to chop files up into header/footer includes, and they want to be able to do all their colour customisation through their beloved .css files. Mike Jimtronic wrote: > > I try to seperate the php code from the html as much as possible. So, if > a page is dynamic, have php figure out the dynamic parts first, put them > into variables such as $html, or $pull_down_menu, or whatever. Then all > that needs to replaced in the html is that section. HTML coders aren't > dumb, so they can be trusted with a simple placement. > > Additionally, I try to seperate php logic from php presentation as much > as possible. This means creating as many variables as possible that > affect how things look and then including a conf.php file that the > coders can also change pretty easily with good documentation. > > Moving even further in this direction, my logic code calls many > presentation functions which I find HTML coders can also decipher rather > well. You can put these in another include file so your designers don't > ever have to touch any of your precious logic. > > Then ... if you have time ... you can make an admin screen to change, > edit, and preview the finished product. > > Jim > >> Hi There, >> >> I'm looking for some community feedback on being a coder working with >> designers. Techniques that work that allow my php-inept page/graphic >> designer comrade make changes to the layout of the page without >> destroying my code, or requiring me to make any changes whatsoever. >> >> Or what is the best process? Code the dynamicity (heh -- sad thing is >> you know what i mean by it) of the site, then integrate a designers >> HTML into your code, *or* the other way around.. have the designer >> create the site using all static html files, then go in and remove >> sample data to be replaced with dynamic data (pulled from a DB, for >> example). >> >> I'm about to enter a very large project working with about 3 or 4 >> designers and 2 other coders and any suggestions on making this >> relationship work is greatly appreciated. >> >> Mike >> >> >> -- >> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Working with designers...
I try to seperate the php code from the html as much as possible. So, if a page is dynamic, have php figure out the dynamic parts first, put them into variables such as $html, or $pull_down_menu, or whatever. Then all that needs to replaced in the html is that section. HTML coders aren't dumb, so they can be trusted with a simple placement. Additionally, I try to seperate php logic from php presentation as much as possible. This means creating as many variables as possible that affect how things look and then including a conf.php file that the coders can also change pretty easily with good documentation. Moving even further in this direction, my logic code calls many presentation functions which I find HTML coders can also decipher rather well. You can put these in another include file so your designers don't ever have to touch any of your precious logic. Then ... if you have time ... you can make an admin screen to change, edit, and preview the finished product. Jim >Hi There, > >I'm looking for some community feedback on being a coder working >with designers. Techniques that work that allow my php-inept >page/graphic designer comrade make changes to the layout of the page >without destroying my code, or requiring me to make any changes >whatsoever. > >Or what is the best process? Code the dynamicity (heh -- sad thing >is you know what i mean by it) of the site, then integrate a >designers HTML into your code, *or* the other way around.. have the >designer create the site using all static html files, then go in and >remove sample data to be replaced with dynamic data (pulled from a >DB, for example). > >I'm about to enter a very large project working with about 3 or 4 >designers and 2 other coders and any suggestions on making this >relationship work is greatly appreciated. > >Mike > > >-- >PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) >To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Jim Musil - Multimedia Programmer Nettmedia - 212-629-0004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
