Re: [PHP] programming and design fees
--- Per Jessen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lamp Lists wrote: now, I didn't have such a big project on side ever. and I by default ALWAY suck in calculations how much time I need for a project and what to charge. I think I need about 120 hrs (3 weeks) to build this baby (without design part). I need your opinion. is it enough time (yes, I know it depends of how fast I program :D Let's say, average fast :)) and what are fees these days for such a project? I lost track. $75/hr is lowest price today or I can't ask more than $50/hr? You can ask whatever you want as long as your customer thinks it's reasonable. (not a joke). That's actually part I'm interested the most :D What is reasonable? Is reasonable for sucha project with complex product catalog and ordering system ask $10K? Given that you're an individual bidding on a single project, you might want to consider fixed price instead of time and materials. I'm not bidding. I did small, simple html web site for them 3 years ago, with 5 pages. Now they want something better, with catalog and admin area. returnig customer :D As for estimates wrt time and effort - if those were available on a mailing-list based on about 30 lines of project description, this list would be full of project managers, all with desperate needs to estimate how long something takes. :-) /Per Jessen, Zürich Thanks Per :) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] programming and design fees
At 7:06 AM -0800 3/8/08, Lamp Lists wrote: That's actually part I'm interested the most :D What is reasonable? Is reasonable for sucha project with complex product catalog and ordering system ask $10K? I think that's reasonable, because I've done similar as you described. I had one client who wanted a site like art.com (don't look now, because it's screwed) and I submitted a bid of $25k. The client asked Isn't that a bit high? and I relied They paid $400k for their name -- you think they went cheap for the back-end? I didn't get the job. I tell clients I charge $50 per hour. Most clients don't mind and hire me. I had one client say I never pay more than $25 per hour -- you will accept that? My answer was Sure, but it will take me twice as long to do anything. The point being that hourly wage doesn't really mean anything. Don't judge the value of your work on the time it takes you, but rather on how well your work works. On most projects, while I make deadlines, I put in many more hours than I bill out. But then again, I love the work. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] programming and design fees
--- tedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 7:06 AM -0800 3/8/08, Lamp Lists wrote: That's actually part I'm interested the most :D What is reasonable? Is reasonable for sucha project with complex product catalog and ordering system ask $10K? I think that's reasonable, because I've done similar as you described. I had one client who wanted a site like art.com (don't look now, because it's screwed) and I submitted a bid of $25k. The client asked Isn't that a bit high? and I relied They paid $400k for their name -- you think they went cheap for the back-end? I didn't get the job. I tell clients I charge $50 per hour. Most clients don't mind and hire me. I had one client say I never pay more than $25 per hour -- you will accept that? My answer was Sure, but it will take me twice as long to do anything. The point being that hourly wage doesn't really mean anything. Don't judge the value of your work on the time it takes you, but rather on how well your work works. On most projects, while I make deadlines, I put in many more hours than I bill out. But then again, I love the work. Cheers, tedd I needed to hear this :D :D :D I do not plan to tell the store owner how much hrs I need and what's my rate. as you said, 100hrs x $50/hr or 200hrs x $25/hr - it really doesn't matter. I needed fo myself, to calculate the worth of the job. thanks ted. ;) -afan -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] programming and design fees
At 11:12 AM -0500 3/8/08, Bastien Koert wrote: The hard part i find is getting the client to scope it out correctly. I started a job last year and it was to be a 10-15 page site to capture some information. So I contracted for $1500. Now its a year later, the client has changed his mind numerous times and the scope has explode out over 100 pages, with all sorts of custom interaction (if this happens send this email, if that happens send another). It has become a real pain and I am definitely not making the $75 / hr i initially scoped. But as tedd mentioned, I too love the work and it helps be build pieces for future projects bastien What we charge and do is not normally discussed on this list. In the past people have said that doing so is price fixing and all sort of other negative comments. But, I don't think discussing what's the going rate and how to get business should be prohibited speech. However, I could be wrong. In any event, I have one project at the moment that started out at 25 pages and now exceeds 80 -- and these are not static pages. Every page is dynamic and uses up to 20 database extractions to pull out data as needed. None of the pages are simple. Total cost thus far is in the $5-$10k range. The client said he wanted a simple face-lift for his site, but he did not say that it included numerous expressions. What started as a month project is now almost a year old and continuing in time and cost. The biggest problem I've faced with this client is that he thinks he knows html and the answer is using tables and font tags. It's been maddening to try to get him to understand that his perspective is dated and is costing him more to create an inferior site than to do it right. But, I'm making progress in educating him as to what's possible -- and that's the key. Normally, I never do a site for less than $1k and that's a static three page. I used to charge $500 for a 3 page and $50 per month for hosting, but that became a pain so I stopped doing that. Now, I just charge per project. For larger sites ($10k), my design skills are limited - so I recommend hiring a designer for a minimum of $1k per design! So, the costs here in developing a real business site are not trivial. This is not the old My neighbor's son learned how to do web sites in high school project but rather a serious means to increase sales. My job is to put it all together to make it work right -- meaning to be consistent with current technologies (i.e., unobtrusive, validates, accessible, and more more) AND for the site to do what the client wants and more. I have been known to hire other programmers if there is something that I don't understand -- you can't know everything, but be careful how you tell your client that. The main point here is that most of the work I do is for clients who make money off the net. Most of it is not creating an Internet billboard but rather developing a vehicle to increase sales. Some of my clients have paid as much as $20k for a single Yellow Pages ad, so they understand that you have to put respectable money into advertising. Plus, the Internet is a much wider audience with much greater sales possibilities. I asked one client Can you handle an expansion to your sales territory? That actually killed one deal -- they didn't want to expand. In any event, web sites/applications are more involved than what normally meets the layman's eye. Educating your clients as to what can be can be more important in getting more work than what they think they need. But, that's my perspective. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] programming and design fees
Lamp Lists wrote: now, I didn't have such a big project on side ever. and I by default ALWAY suck in calculations how much time I need for a project and what to charge. I think I need about 120 hrs (3 weeks) to build this baby (without design part). I need your opinion. is it enough time (yes, I know it depends of how fast I program :D Let's say, average fast :)) and what are fees these days for such a project? I lost track. $75/hr is lowest price today or I can't ask more than $50/hr? You can ask whatever you want as long as your customer thinks it's reasonable. (not a joke). Given that you're an individual bidding on a single project, you might want to consider fixed price instead of time and materials. As for estimates wrt time and effort - if those were available on a mailing-list based on about 30 lines of project description, this list would be full of project managers, all with desperate needs to estimate how long something takes. :-) /Per Jessen, Zürich -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
