Re: PicoLisp wiki, TimeOut?

[Alexander Burger]

On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 11:52:06AM +0200, Alexander Burger wrote:
> My customers gave me very positive feedback about it. The only fault is
> that it doesn't show client local time, but the time of the server's

Showing the timeout in the client's local time would unfortunately
require JavaScript again. As far as I know.

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Re: PicoLisp wiki, TimeOut?

[Alexander Burger]

Hi Jon,

> Here is a demo of what I was thinking of:
> 

I understand that. However, it is against the spirit of that GUI, as it
depends on JavaScript. One important feature is for me that all
functionality is available also without JavaScript, and JavaScript
should be used only to speed up things which would also work without.

The timeout message itself, as it is displayed currently, is correct.

The nice point is that it shows the real situation, not some calculated
condition in JavaScript in the user's browser. It is the real scheduled
time when the server process will terminate, unless a new event arrives.

My customers gave me very positive feedback about it. The only fault is
that it doesn't show client local time, but the time of the server's
time zone, so it is not really suited for the Wiki perhaps.

Still it is a remainder to the user that there is a timeout at all
pending.


> When one logs into the wiki, and then later logs out, the timeout
> info should be removed, and if possible there should no longer be a

This is difficult. The session remains for another 5 minutes if the user
logs out, and this is perhaps not trivial to fix, as all generated links
on that page still contain the session ID. The rationale for that
(originating from "normal" PicoLisp apps) is that the session should
stay around for some time in case that the user likes to log in again.

So as long as the user continues to click on such "session links", the
session will go on (and also show the correct remaining timeout). As
soon as the user goes to a "sessionless" page, as the top level
"home.picolisp.com", or something like "xxx/5000/-2-2.html", the timeout
message will be gone.

So this is always correct: If and only if there is a session active,
there is a timeout involved, and a timeout message is displayed.

There are of course workarounds (e.g. use 'url' to jump to a top-level
page when the user logs out), but I would rather not break the framework
conventions just to have that effect.

If the timeout is really so confusing in the context of the Wiki, I
would rather propose to remove the two calls to (expires).

Cheers,
- Alex
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Re: PicoLisp wiki, TimeOut?

[Jon Kleiser]

Hi Alex,

Here is a demo of what I was thinking of:


If you think it could be useful, you can pick the parts you like.

Another detail:
When one logs into the wiki, and then later logs out, the timeout info 
should be removed, and if possible there should no longer be a session 
at the server that can time out and give the user the blue Timeout page.


/Jon

On 4/21/10 10:54 AM, Alexander Burger wrote:

Hi Jon,


I still don't understand what it tries to tell me. If it means there's
some 10 minutes till timeout, why doesn't these minutes and seconds count
down?


These are not minutes and seconds, but the time when the timeout will
occur. It changes whenever an event happens, i.e. a reload of the page,
a click on a link, or a JavaScript action. So it always shows the
correct moment when the current session will terminate, as each event or
action resets the timeout in the global '*Run' (see documentation of
'timeout').

Hmm, I see indeed one problem: This time is the local time of the
server, Central European Time in this case. This might not be very
useful in case of the wiki which is different from a local application.
I should at least append the string "CET".



If there shall be something telling the user how much time is left before
timeout, I think it should look less alarming, maybe somewhat more "out of
the way" (not so central), and it should be updated every 5 secs. or so.
When there is only 1 or 2 minutes left, a more visible message could
appear, and at timeout a final message could tell so.


This is technically not possible, because the server wakes up only when
the user clicks something. And only then the timeout changes.

So if the display says the session will time out at half past 12, the
session will terminate then unless the user clicks somewhere.

What would be possible, though, is using an '+Auto' button, in
combination with '*Throbber' or similar. The '+Auto' button "presses
itself", to refresh a page periodically, e.g. every two seconds, and
shows a continuously updated display (there is not example code released
for that). But this is quite some overhead, and then of course the
timeout display is meaningless, because it will never timeout, and the
timeout will always be now plus 1 hour.

Cheers,
- Alex


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Re: PicoLisp wiki, TimeOut?

[Alexander Burger]

Hi Jon,

> I still don't understand what it tries to tell me. If it means there's
> some 10 minutes till timeout, why doesn't these minutes and seconds count
> down?

These are not minutes and seconds, but the time when the timeout will
occur. It changes whenever an event happens, i.e. a reload of the page,
a click on a link, or a JavaScript action. So it always shows the
correct moment when the current session will terminate, as each event or
action resets the timeout in the global '*Run' (see documentation of
'timeout').

Hmm, I see indeed one problem: This time is the local time of the
server, Central European Time in this case. This might not be very
useful in case of the wiki which is different from a local application.
I should at least append the string "CET".


> If there shall be something telling the user how much time is left before
> timeout, I think it should look less alarming, maybe somewhat more "out of
> the way" (not so central), and it should be updated every 5 secs. or so.
> When there is only 1 or 2 minutes left, a more visible message could
> appear, and at timeout a final message could tell so.

This is technically not possible, because the server wakes up only when
the user clicks something. And only then the timeout changes.

So if the display says the session will time out at half past 12, the
session will terminate then unless the user clicks somewhere.

What would be possible, though, is using an '+Auto' button, in
combination with '*Throbber' or similar. The '+Auto' button "presses
itself", to refresh a page periodically, e.g. every two seconds, and
shows a continuously updated display (there is not example code released
for that). But this is quite some overhead, and then of course the
timeout display is meaningless, because it will never timeout, and the
timeout will always be now plus 1 hour.

Cheers,
- Alex
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Re: PicoLisp wiki, TimeOut?

[Jon Kleiser]

Hi Alex,

I still don't understand what it tries to tell me. If it means there's
some 10 minutes till timeout, why doesn't these minutes and seconds count
down? The way this red message appears, it looks like some failure/timeout
has already happened.

If there shall be something telling the user how much time is left before
timeout, I think it should look less alarming, maybe somewhat more "out of
the way" (not so central), and it should be updated every 5 secs. or so.
When there is only 1 or 2 minutes left, a more visible message could
appear, and at timeout a final message could tell so.

/Jon

> Hi Jon,
>
>> I'm just curious: Why is there now a TimeOut message in red as soon as I
>> try to log in at picolisp.com?
>
> That's a new feature. I've also included it into other applications.
>
> It should make the situation in a seesion more clear to the user, and
> avoid surprises when the timeout expires. The feedback from my customers
> was quite positive.
>
> Cheers,
> - Alex


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Re: PicoLisp wiki, TimeOut?

[Alexander Burger]

Hi Jon,

> I'm just curious: Why is there now a TimeOut message in red as soon as I
> try to log in at picolisp.com?

That's a new feature. I've also included it into other applications.

It should make the situation in a seesion more clear to the user, and
avoid surprises when the timeout expires. The feedback from my customers
was quite positive.

Cheers,
- Alex
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PicoLisp wiki, TimeOut?

[Jon Kleiser]

Hi Alex,

I'm just curious: Why is there now a TimeOut message in red as soon as I
try to log in at picolisp.com?

/Jon

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