Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

> > Fra: Boyko Bantchev >Til: programm...@jsoftware.com >Sendt: 15:02 mandag den 10. december 2012 >Emne: Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python > >On 10 December 2012 08:19, Bo Jacoby wrote: >> Boyko, congratulations! You manage to convince yourself that  cm²  is

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

On 10 December 2012 17:21, Raul Miller wrote: > > Hopefully my few minutes of effort here have done something to rectify > this gap in this part of your knowledge? You would have spent your time more fruitfully – and saved mine – had you actually read what you are posting, rather tha

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

I would be interested in NumPy. I have to use python in some contexts, but I have not had the time to study all the options, and on my own it would take me years to get up to speed on something like NumPy. As for the rest of your message: I will agree with you on the need for a variety of perspec

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

If we are going to argue J v Python, we need to at least look at NumPy (based in part on APL) and SciPy. If anybody is interested, I can start those topics. I also have another set of issues, regarding choice of languages in working with Sugar education software. I will give the background here, a

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

As for using J to teach students (presumably we're talking about elementary to high-school level), I think my exposure to APL in junior high-school (age 13) helped me better understand matrix math concepts when they were introduced in high-school. On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Raul Miller wr

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 5:01 PM, Boyko Bantchev wrote: > I also know many people who teach mathematics or informatics at > school, at different places and certainly to students with average > (or below) mathematical abilities. My wife has been a school teacher > in mathematics for years. Neither

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

On 10 December 2012 02:10, William Tanksley, Jr wrote: > Every notation has problems. If you don't see them, it's not because > they're not there. It's enormously ironic that you're denying ALL > problems with "traditional notation" I am perfectly aware that every notation has problems, and I hav

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

--On 9 décembre 2012 18:03:04 -0500 Raul Miller wrote: Have you considered writing python code to build files with regular format? Yes, but that's a lot of overhead, both in terms of conversion code to write and in terms of added steps in deployment. I believe I am better off doing everythi

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

far.' - Bo > > Fra: Boyko Bantchev >Til: programm...@jsoftware.com >Sendt: 23:35 søndag den 9. december 2012 >Emne: Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python > >On 9 December 2012 23:17, Bo Jacoby wrote: >> Still it is an expression. Centi is one hundredth, 0.01, and 'meter&#

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

Boyko Bantchev wrote: > William Tanksley wrote: >> "Let me know -- where did you teach that gave you the idea that people >> find traditional notation easy?" > I did, and I am teaching to both university students and school students. > I'll add that they are not the crowd that would fail at algeb

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 4:38 PM, Don Guinn wrote: > More fun to try to do it using tacit expressions. One toy I tried without > too much success is: >(+*-) -: ((-&*:) > I wanted to do it without using any explicit expressions. Do you mean something like this? ((+*-) -: (-&*:)) i. 10 1 I'm

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Konrad Hinsen wrote: > I have plenty of algorithms in my work for which J would be just perfect. > But I need to get the data into and out of J. I need to handle weird file > formats and read/write parts of huge files. There are libraries that do the > job very well

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

Pray how is this debate related to J programming? On 12/09/2012 09:30 AM, William Tanksley, Jr wrote: Boyko Bantchev wrote: William Tanksley, Jr wrote: If your post was supposed to somehow disagree with my opinion, then I don't know how. "Let me know -- where did you teac

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

On 9 December 2012 19:30, William Tanksley, JAnother r wrote: > "Let me know -- where did you teach that gave you the idea that people > find traditional notation easy?" I did, and I am teaching to both university students and school students. I'll add that they are not the crowd that would fail

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

2012/12/9 Bo Jacoby > Q. 'how does J convention lead to omitting parentheses'? > (45+67+i.6)%6 18.6667 18.8333 19 19.1667 19. 19.5 6%~45+67+i.6 18.6667 18.8333 19 19.1667 19. 19.5 -- For information about J forums

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

When in high school I was intrigued by proofs in geometry and later trig. As an experiment I tried to write proofs in J notation. Not too hard using explicit notation by converting the "traditional" notation to J. And I have seen where Ken verified steps of a proof by executing them with test data.

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

. The parentheses are omitted. Q. 'the precedences hardly present a problem'. A. Precedences present problems to the pupils even if it is no problem to you. - Bo > > Fra: Boyko Bantchev >Til: programm...@jsoftware.com >Sendt: 16:21 søndag

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

I have not followed the entire thread and I do not know how to program in Python. Nevertheless, I would dare to suggest, even if it has been suggested already, to program in Python using the J style just as the J Source is programmed in C using the J style (I have been told). The handling of arra

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

--On 7 décembre 2012 10:49:52 +0100 John-Philip BUTLER wrote: Ideally, I would want to be able to embed J code into other more mainstream languages (python, Lisp, Ada...) at a reasonably low level of granularity, more or less in the same way that inline assembler is used. Me too, although I

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

On 9 December 2012 17:25, Don Guinn wrote: > The point is that the context must be determined before an expression is > evaluated. The rules for evaluation of an expression should be context > independent. There is always a context. One cannot escape from that, except in very simple domains. Sc

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

The point is that the context must be determined before an expression is evaluated. The rules for evaluation of an expression should be context independent. On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 8:17 AM, Boyko Bantchev wrote: > On 9 December 2012 01:36, Raul Miller wrote: > > That sounds like the approach of

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

On 9 December 2012 08:41, Bo Jacoby wrote: > Well, 'cm' is a product, c*m, where c=.0.01 and m is a meter. All my life I have been under the impression that 'cm' is an abbreviation for 'centimeter', used to denote the unit of length, and not an arithmetic expression. And that, similarly, 'cm²' i

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

On 9 December 2012 05:35, William Tanksley, Jr wrote: > If your post was supposed to somehow disagree with my opinion, then I don't know how. All I got from it (apart from your harshly expressed disbelief and disrespect for the two humble sentences I wrote) is that you and your

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

On 9 December 2012 01:36, Raul Miller wrote: > That sounds like the approach of an orthodoxy rather than of a > scientific research community. Then let the 'scientific research community' produce at least one study of the kind you said you don't know to exist. Until then what you call orthodoxy

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

ion from the rule. The J convention is that expressions are evaluated from right to left:   a*b+c   means   a*(b+c). It is better because is is simpler and more general. - Bo > > Fra: Boyko Bantchev >Til: programm...@jsoftware.com >Sendt: 21:39 l

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

Thanks for the comments; What I had seen from a very brief view was the "same old". You give a couple of examples which require a library, These examples are ones that were handled easily many years ago in the original versions of APL Yes, you can define sin and sum etc in a library file-so can

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

ums.jsoftware.com] On Behalf Of John-Philip BUTLER > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 4:50 AM > To: programm...@jsoftware.com > Cc: Graham Parkhouse > Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python > > Graham, > > > > My experience is very similar to yours: J is excellent for solving

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Boyko Bantchev wrote: > On 8 December 2012 15:07, Raul Miller wrote: >> To my knowledge, no studies have been done to investigate this issue. > > People interested in conducting such a study are those willing to > demonstrate that J would be easier, compared to tra

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

On 8 December 2012 19:05, William Tanksley, Jr wrote: > I've done some classroom teaching and small-group tutoring, and it is > not my experience that traditional algebraic notation is easy for kids > or college students to learn. I am not foreign to teaching, and my experience contradicts yours,

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

On 8 December 2012 18:36, Bo Jacoby wrote: > Conventional algebraic notation is sometimes confusing. mc^2 means m*(c^2) , > mass times light speed squared, while cm^2 means square centimeter, (c*m)^2, > rather than centi squaremeter, c*(m^2). The J convention for omitting > parentheses is bette

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

On 8 December 2012 15:07, Raul Miller wrote: > To my knowledge, no studies have been done to investigate this issue. People interested in conducting such a study are those willing to demonstrate that J would be easier, compared to traditional notation, for school students to read and think in. H

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

Boyko Bantchev wrote: > Traditional algebraic notation is very good for what it has been > designed, and much easier to learn for kids than parsing J, let alone > understanding the underlying computational model. I've done some classroom teaching and small-group tutoring, and it is not my experie

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

Don & Cathy Kelly wrote: > array oriented languages. Look at the power of a simple +/ vs the Python, > Fortran, Basic, C approach? Try out the 1 o. o.0.1*i.10 equivalent in > Python without writing a loop. I don't think that's the big advantage... Python's code for that isn't much worse (I don'

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

re.com > >Cc: Graham Parkhouse > >Sendt: 10:49 fredag den 7. december 2012 > >Emne: Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python > > > >Graham, > > > > > > > >My experience is very similar to yours: J is excellent for solving > engineering problems on time

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

> > Fra: Raul Miller >Til: programm...@jsoftware.com >Sendt: 14:07 lørdag den 8. december 2012 >Emne: Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python > >On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Boyko Bantchev wrote: >> Traditional algebraic notation is very good for what it has been >> desig

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Boyko Bantchev wrote: > Traditional algebraic notation is very good for what it has been > designed, and much easier to learn for kids than parsing J, let alone > understanding the underlying computational model. To my knowledge, no studies have been done to inves

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

A good approach such cases is to apply the criteria described in Iverson's Turing lecture , Chapter 1, Important Characteristics of Notation. e.g. can you easily prove a Python program correct? On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 1:55 AM, June Kim (김창준) wrote: > On

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Don & Cathy Kelly wrote: > Hey - I am approaching this as an engineer (and ex educator) rather than > as a professional programmer. I have in the past used a variety of > languages- first was MAD (1961 at U of Michigan-credit to the Ford > Foundation which provide

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

Hey - I am approaching this as an engineer (and ex educator) rather than as a professional programmer. I have in the past used a variety of languages- first was MAD (1961 at U of Michigan-credit to the Ford Foundation which provided generous support) which was a superior Fortran at the time, t

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

Thank you for all your responses! My thoughts are: 1. Give up engineering and teach J in math classes in schools. This is not an opportunity open to me, I'm afraid Linda, for several reasons. I think I will serve everybody best by focusing on my particular problem and helping my colleagues to unde

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

What I find with the Python version is that with very little modification this could have been written in Fortran or Basic back in the early '70s with essentially the same statements- a "for" and an" if." . Whoopee! You could also do this with J using control structures and could show it to yo

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

On 7 December 2012 17:38, David Ward Lambert wrote: > Teaching J for math class in school is a great idea. The same notation > works for English class and for social studies too. The cost of entry > is steep with algebraic notation so deeply entrenched. Can the US > convert to Metric system? T

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

ent: Friday, December 07, 2012 5:34 AM > To: programm...@jsoftware.com > Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python > > Why not teach J in the math classes in the schools. Prepare all students for the skills they might need in science, technology,engineering, sand mathematics. STEM is the big push

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

p.s. by "construction work", here, I meant something like building houses -- something I am not currently doing. -- Raul On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Raul Miller wrote: > Why dishonest? > > Granted, I approximated, but there are a variety of costs here having > to do with making sure the res

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

Why dishonest? Granted, I approximated, but there are a variety of costs here having to do with making sure the result is reliable and works properly. Mind you, with that kind of price, I might lose the customer, but think about it, this price has to include things like: * Training costs for mys

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

Sounds dishonest to me. Sent from my iPhone On 7 Dec 2012, at 12:29, Raul Miller wrote: > Of course a real python solution involving an existing implementation > should be a few lines of python that call into the existing > implementation... > > Anyways, if I were in your situation, I would e

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

Of course a real python solution involving an existing implementation should be a few lines of python that call into the existing implementation... Anyways, if I were in your situation, I would explain that I expected that my python development costs would be about 5x my J development costs, and t

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 5:34 AM To: programm...@jsoftware.com Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python Why not teach J in the math classes in the schools. Prepare all students for the skills they might need in science, technology,engineering, sand mathematics. STEM is the big push here in

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

e tells me that they do. - Bo   >Til: programm...@jsoftware.com >Cc: Graham Parkhouse >Sendt: 10:49 fredag den 7. december 2012 >Emne: Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python > >Graham, > >  > >My experience is very similar to yours: J is excellent for solving engineering &

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

: Graham Parkhouse Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python Graham, My experience is very similar to yours: J is excellent for solving engineering problems on time, but then comes a request to repackage the tool into something that non-J users can use more easily (Python if you are lucky, Excel

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

it really has to be done through sockets in the meanwhile, it woudld be nice to have standard interfaces on the calling side.   Philip > Message du 07/12/12 00:42 > De : "Graham Parkhouse" > A : programm...@jsoftware.com > Copie à : > Objet : Re: [Jprogramm

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

Mike, that's very interesting! I (aka Eve) have currently solved 160 out of 404 of the Project Euler problems, using APL then J, and my recent progress has been heavy going, so much so that I have practically given up. My last efforts were on Problem 376 in April of this year, a delightful problem

Re: [Jprogramming] J v Python

When I started doing the Euler Project problems some years ago I used a mixture of Dyalog APL and J. John Randall pointed me in the direction of Pari GP which has the advantage (for me) of allowing high precision arithmetical operations, pace Roger Hui. Of course J has extended integers and ra

[Jprogramming] J v Python

I am profiting from a foray into Python, which, it is claimed, is much more easily understood than J. Some people boast they can program in Python as quickly as they can type. Problem 1 of Project Euler: Find the sum of all the multiples of 3 or 5 below 1000. Programming in J, I like to see inte