[Python-Dev] Psyco for -OO or -O

2008-12-12 Thread Lie Ryan
I'm sure probably most of you knows about psyco[1], the optimizer. Python has an -O and -OO flag that is intended to be optimization flag, but we know that currently it doesn't do much. Why not add psyco as standard library and let -O or -OO invoke psyco? [1] http://psyco.sourceforge.net/index.

Re: [Python-Dev] Python-3.0, unicode, and os.environ

2008-12-12 Thread André Malo
* Adam Olsen wrote: > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 9:47 PM, André Malo wrote: > > * Adam Olsen wrote: > >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 2:11 AM, André Malo wrote: > >> > * Adam Olsen wrote: > >> >> UTF-8 in percent encodings is becoming a defacto standard. > >> >> Otherwise the browser has to display the

Re: [Python-Dev] Python-3.0, unicode, and os.environ

2008-12-12 Thread Adam Olsen
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 9:47 PM, André Malo wrote: > * Adam Olsen wrote: >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 2:11 AM, André Malo wrote: >> > * Adam Olsen wrote: >> >> UTF-8 in percent encodings is becoming a defacto standard. Otherwise >> >> the browser has to display the percent escapes in the address b

Re: [Python-Dev] Python-3.0, unicode, and os.environ

2008-12-12 Thread André Malo
* Adam Olsen wrote: > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 2:11 AM, André Malo wrote: > > * Adam Olsen wrote: > >> UTF-8 in percent encodings is becoming a defacto standard. Otherwise > >> the browser has to display the percent escapes in the address bar, > >> rather than the intended text. > > > > Duh! The

Re: [Python-Dev] The endless GIL debate: why not remove thread support instead?

2008-12-12 Thread Nick Coghlan
Thomas Heller wrote: > Christian Heimes schrieb: >> Nick Coghlan schrieb: >>> Actually, I believe 3.0 already took a big step towards allowing this by >>> changing the way modules are initialised. >> You are believing correctly. Martin has designed and implemented a >> nicely working API to store e

Re: [Python-Dev] Python-3.0, unicode, and os.environ

2008-12-12 Thread glyph
On 02:23 pm, c...@hagenlocher.org wrote: On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 6:19 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Curt Hagenlocher hagenlocher.org> writes: No, but it also has to interact with filesystems of possibly invalid or indeterminate encodings. What does java.io do? My point was that Python doesn't

[Python-Dev] Summary of Python tracker Issues

2008-12-12 Thread Python tracker
ACTIVITY SUMMARY (12/05/08 - 12/12/08) Python tracker at http://bugs.python.org/ To view or respond to any of the issues listed below, click on the issue number. Do NOT respond to this message. 2261 open (+58) / 14206 closed (+37) / 16467 total (+95) Open issues with patches: 763 Average

Re: [Python-Dev] Python-3.0, unicode, and os.environ

2008-12-12 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 16:21, Scott Dial wrote: > See the following email for a summary of existing practice (as of 2004): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/unic...@unicode.org/msg27352.html Interesting. Quite a lot of them do just drop the undecodable filenames. The Java solution with replacing i

Re: [Python-Dev] The endless GIL debate: why not remove thread support instead?

2008-12-12 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:23, Sturla Molden wrote: > It seems that most programmers with Java or Windows experience don't > understand this; hence the ever lasting GIL debate. Yes. Maybe writing this with big letters in the thread module docs would help? > I am not suggesting removal of threads

Re: [Python-Dev] The endless GIL debate: why not remove thread support instead?

2008-12-12 Thread Thomas Heller
Christian Heimes schrieb: > Nick Coghlan schrieb: >> Actually, I believe 3.0 already took a big step towards allowing this by >> changing the way modules are initialised. > > You are believing correctly. Martin has designed and implemented a > nicely working API to store extension module data per

Re: [Python-Dev] Python-3.0, unicode, and os.environ

2008-12-12 Thread Toshio Kuratomi
Adam Olsen wrote: > UTF-8 in percent encodings is becoming a defacto standard. Otherwise > the browser has to display the percent escapes in the address bar, > rather than the intended text. > > IOW, inconsistent behaviour is a bug, but translating into UTF-8 is not. ;) > > I think we should le

Re: [Python-Dev] 2to3 question about fix_imports.

2008-12-12 Thread Victor Stinner
Le Friday 12 December 2008 17:39:33 Lennart Regebro, vous avez écrit : > The fix_imports fix seems to fix only the first import per line that you > have. So if you do for example >import urllib2, cStringIO > it will not fix cStringIO. > > Is this a bug or a feature? :-) I prefer to see that as

[Python-Dev] 2to3 question about fix_imports.

2008-12-12 Thread Lennart Regebro
The fix_imports fix seems to fix only the first import per line that you have. So if you do for example import urllib2, cStringIO it will not fix cStringIO. Is this a bug or a feature? :-) If it's a feature it should warn at least, right? -- Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting. http://

Re: [Python-Dev] Python-3.0, unicode, and os.environ

2008-12-12 Thread Scott Dial
Curt Hagenlocher wrote: > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 6:19 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: >> Curt Hagenlocher hagenlocher.org> writes: >>> No, but it also has to interact with filesystems of possibly invalid >>> or indeterminate encodings. What does java.io do? >> My point was that Python doesn't have to

Re: [Python-Dev] The endless GIL debate: why not remove thread support instead?

2008-12-12 Thread Christian Heimes
Nick Coghlan schrieb: > Actually, I believe 3.0 already took a big step towards allowing this by > changing the way modules are initialised. You are believing correctly. Martin has designed and implemented a nicely working API to store extension module data per interpreter state. For now interpre

Re: [Python-Dev] Python-3.0, unicode, and os.environ

2008-12-12 Thread Curt Hagenlocher
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 6:19 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > Curt Hagenlocher hagenlocher.org> writes: >> >> No, but it also has to interact with filesystems of possibly invalid >> or indeterminate encodings. What does java.io do? > > My point was that Python doesn't have to interact with the Java I

Re: [Python-Dev] Python-3.0, unicode, and os.environ

2008-12-12 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Curt Hagenlocher hagenlocher.org> writes: > > No, but it also has to interact with filesystems of possibly invalid > or indeterminate encodings. What does java.io do? My point was that Python doesn't have to interact with the Java IO libraries, while it has to interact with the Unix and Windows

Re: [Python-Dev] Python-3.0, unicode, and os.environ

2008-12-12 Thread Curt Hagenlocher
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 5:06 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > Curt Hagenlocher hagenlocher.org> writes: > > > There's this other obscure platform called "Java"... ;) > > Does it have a filesystem? No, but it also has to interact with filesystems of possibly invalid or indeterminate encodings. What

Re: [Python-Dev] Build failure on OpenBSD 4.4-current

2008-12-12 Thread Edd Barrett
Hi, On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 1:17 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > Could you please open an issue in http://bugs.python.org ? That way the > problem > is less likely to be overlooked. http://bugs.python.org/issue4639 Thanks -- Best Regards Edd http://students.dec.bournemouth.ac.uk/ebarrett ___

Re: [Python-Dev] Build failure on OpenBSD 4.4-current

2008-12-12 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Hello, Edd Barrett gmail.com> writes: > > I just had to move the "extern lstat..." outside the "ifndef > HAVE_LSTAT" to get python 2.6.1 to build on OpenBSD 4.4-current/i386. Could you please open an issue in http://bugs.python.org ? That way the problem is less likely to be overlooked. By the

Re: [Python-Dev] Python-3.0, unicode, and os.environ

2008-12-12 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Curt Hagenlocher hagenlocher.org> writes: > > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:19 PM, Adam Olsen gmail.com> wrote: > > > I doubt that UTF-16 is used very much (other than on windows). > > There's this other obscure platform called "Java"... ;) Does it have a filesystem? _

[Python-Dev] Build failure on OpenBSD 4.4-current

2008-12-12 Thread Edd Barrett
Hi, I just had to move the "extern lstat..." outside the "ifndef HAVE_LSTAT" to get python 2.6.1 to build on OpenBSD 4.4-current/i386. I'm not suggesting this is correct, but it fixes the build for my platform at least. --- Modules/posixmodule.c.orig Fri Dec 12 11:08:54 2008 +++ Modules/posi

Re: [Python-Dev] The endless GIL debate: why not remove thread support instead?

2008-12-12 Thread Sturla Molden
On 12/12/2008 11:52 AM, Lennart Regebro wrote: The use of threads for load balancing should be discouraged, yes. That is not what they are designed for. Threads are designed to allow blocking processes to go on in the background without blocking the main process. It seems that most programmers

Re: [Python-Dev] The endless GIL debate: why not remove thread support instead?

2008-12-12 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 02:13, Sturla Molden wrote: > I genuinely think the use of threads should be discouraged. It leads to > code that are full of bugs and difficult to maintain - race conditions, > deadlocks, and livelocks are common pitfalls. The use of threads for load balancing should be d

Re: [Python-Dev] The endless GIL debate: why not remove thread support instead?

2008-12-12 Thread Nick Coghlan
Paul Moore wrote: > 2. I'd like to see isolation based on multiple interpreters, but the > problem lies with extensions (and at a lower level with the Python C > API) which wasn't designed with isolation in mind. Changing that may > be nice, but it's probably too late (or if not, it's likely to be

Re: [Python-Dev] The endless GIL debate: why not remove thread support instead?

2008-12-12 Thread Nick Coghlan
Sturla Molden wrote: > Last month there was a discussion on Python-Dev regarding removal of > reference counting to remove the GIL. I hope you forgive me for continuing > the debate. Anything to do with removing the GIL/threads/whatever other core language feature someone doesn't like really belon

Re: [Python-Dev] The endless GIL debate: why not remove thread support instead?

2008-12-12 Thread Paul Moore
2008/12/12 Sturla Molden : > Last month there was a discussion on Python-Dev regarding removal of > reference counting to remove the GIL. I hope you forgive me for continuing > the debate. [...] > Python could be better off doing what tcl does. Allow each process to > embed multiple interpreters; r

Re: [Python-Dev] Python-3.0, unicode, and os.environ

2008-12-12 Thread Adam Olsen
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 2:11 AM, André Malo wrote: > * Adam Olsen wrote: > >> UTF-8 in percent encodings is becoming a defacto standard. Otherwise >> the browser has to display the percent escapes in the address bar, >> rather than the intended text. > > Duh! The address bar should contain the UR

Re: [Python-Dev] Python-3.0, unicode, and os.environ

2008-12-12 Thread Ulrich Eckhardt
On Friday 12 December 2008, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > I gather that the BFDL's line on this thread of discussion is that > forcing programmers to think about encodings every time they call out > to the OS is unacceptable Exactly that is not necessary. for n in os.readdir('.'): f = open

Re: [Python-Dev] Python-3.0, unicode, and os.environ

2008-12-12 Thread Adam Olsen
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 1:31 AM, Ulrich Eckhardt wrote: > On Thursday 11 December 2008, Adam Olsen wrote: >> The simplest solution there is to have windows bytes APIs that return >> raw UTF-16 bytes (note that windows does NOT guaranteed to be valid >> unicode, despite being much more likely than

Re: [Python-Dev] Python-3.0, unicode, and os.environ

2008-12-12 Thread André Malo
* Adam Olsen wrote: > UTF-8 in percent encodings is becoming a defacto standard. Otherwise > the browser has to display the percent escapes in the address bar, > rather than the intended text. Duh! The address bar should contain the URL, which *is* the intended text. The escapes are there for

Re: [Python-Dev] Python-3.0, unicode, and os.environ

2008-12-12 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull
Toshio Kuratomi writes: > Adam Olsen wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 6:55 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull > > wrote: > >> Unfortunately, even programmers experienced in I18N like Martin, and > >> those with intuition-that-has-the-force-of-law like Guido, > >> express deliberate disbelief on this

Re: [Python-Dev] Python-3.0, unicode, and os.environ

2008-12-12 Thread Ulrich Eckhardt
On Thursday 11 December 2008, Adam Olsen wrote: > The simplest solution there is to have windows bytes APIs that return > raw UTF-16 bytes (note that windows does NOT guaranteed to be valid > unicode, despite being much more likely than on linux). Actually, I'm not aware of this case. I only know

Re: [Python-Dev] The endless GIL debate: why not remove thread support instead?

2008-12-12 Thread Stefan Behnel
Hi, replying to the topic only: because many C libraries support threading and Python extension modules can integrate them in a way that allows concurrency in a safe way (although 'safe' is definitely something that is paid for in developer days). Stefan _

Re: [Python-Dev] Python-3.0, unicode, and os.environ

2008-12-12 Thread Ulrich Eckhardt
On Thursday 11 December 2008, Steve Holden wrote: > Ulrich Eckhardt wrote: > > If readdir() returned Unicode text, people would start taking that for > > granted. If it returned bytes, just the same. Returning a completely > > unrelated type will give them enough hint that for this thing they have

Re: [Python-Dev] Python-3.0, unicode, and os.environ

2008-12-12 Thread Adam Olsen
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:33 AM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > Adam Olsen wrote: >> As a data point, firefox (when pointed at my home dir) DOES skip over >> garbage files. >> >> > That's not true. However, it looks like Firefox is actually broken. > Take a look at this screenshot: > firefox.png > >