Re: [Python-Dev] Process to remove a Python feature

To be fair, if they hadn’t already been deprecated we would have had to deprecate the old behaviour for a couple of releases before changing it. It just so happened that we did the deprecation first without knowing what the fix would be :) Top-posted from my Windows phone From: Victor Stinner

Re: [Python-Dev] Process to remove a Python feature

On 5/4/2018 6:18 PM, Victor Stinner wrote: 2018-05-04 23:59 GMT+02:00 Terry Reedy : Would it be possible (and sensible) to use the 2to3 machinery to produce 36to37.py, etc., to do mechanical replacements when possible and flag other things when necessary? I suggest you to

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

On 5/4/2018 10:07 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Terry, please, to persist in attacking Ivan's past behaviour when he has not repeated it is not open, considerate or respectful. I did not do that. My first sentence was background for a *discussion* about a partial disagreement with what you

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

On Fri, May 04, 2018 at 03:21:28PM -0400, Terry Reedy wrote: > On 5/4/2018 11:43 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > >I'm not defending Ivan's initial email. His tantrum *was* annoying, > >unreasonable, and unfair to those who do care about tkinter. > > Ivan's email was a disinformation troll

Re: [Python-Dev] A fast startup patch (was: Python startup time)

What are the obstacles to including "preloaded" objects in regular .pyc files, so that everyone can take advantage of this without rebuilding the interpreter? Off the top of my head: We'd be making the in-memory layout of those objects part of the .pyc format, so we couldn't change that within a

Re: [Python-Dev] A fast startup patch (was: Python startup time)

On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 5:14 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: > This definitely seems interesting, but is it something you'd be seeing us > being able to take advantage of for conventional Python installations, or > is it more something you'd expect to be useful for purpose-built >

Re: [Python-Dev] Process to remove a Python feature

2018-05-04 20:48 GMT+02:00 Serhiy Storchaka : > I think the information about since which version number it will be removed > is more useful. About deprecation, there is the funny story of bytes filenames on Windows. I deprecated this feature in Windows 3.3 since it was

Re: [Python-Dev] Process to remove a Python feature

2018-05-04 23:59 GMT+02:00 Terry Reedy : > Would it be possible (and sensible) to use the 2to3 machinery to produce > 36to37.py, etc., to do mechanical replacements when possible and flag other > things when necessary? I suggest you to watch Daniele Esposti's talk "Evolution or

Re: [Python-Dev] Process to remove a Python feature

On 5/2/2018 5:11 AM, Victor Stinner wrote: As a follow-up to the "[Python-Dev] (Looking for) A Retrospective on the Move to Python 3" thread, I will like to clarify how a feature should be removed from Python. Would it be possible (and sensible) to use the 2to3 machinery to produce

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email (was: Drop/deprecate Tkinter?)

On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 11:43 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Thu, May 03, 2018 at 06:31:03PM +, Brett Cannon wrote: > .. > I'm not defending Ivan's initial email. His tantrum *was* annoying, > unreasonable, and unfair to those who do care about tkinter. He could > have

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email (was: Drop/deprecate Tkinter?)

On Fri, 4 May 2018 at 09:07 Guido van Rossum wrote: > Thank you Steven! I assume that Brian hadn't seen my response (such > crossed messages due to delivery delays are very common in this mailing > list). > > I'd like to use your email (nearly) verbatim to start off the

Re: [Python-Dev] Process to remove a Python feature

On Fri, 4 May 2018 at 12:09 Matthias Bussonnier < bussonniermatth...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, 4 May 2018 at 11:49, Serhiy Storchaka wrote: > >> 04.05.18 20:57, Matthias Bussonnier пише: >> > But when I hit a DeprecationWarning message there is one crucial piece >> of >> >

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

On 5/4/2018 12:04 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: Thank you Steven! I'd like to use your email (nearly) verbatim to start off the discussion about civility we're going to have at the Language Summit. I won't be there but sounds like a good idea. I hope you consider that bad content as well as

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

On 5/4/2018 11:43 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: I'm not defending Ivan's initial email. His tantrum *was* annoying, unreasonable, and unfair to those who do care about tkinter. Ivan's email was a disinformation troll intended to jump the attention queue of core developers. He is proud of its

Re: [Python-Dev] Process to remove a Python feature

On Fri, 4 May 2018 at 11:49, Serhiy Storchaka wrote: > 04.05.18 20:57, Matthias Bussonnier пише: > > But when I hit a DeprecationWarning message there is one crucial piece of > > information missing most of the time: Since which version number it's > > deprecated > > (and

Re: [Python-Dev] Process to remove a Python feature

No, the reason they're hidden by default is that for most users they're not actionable most of the time. On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 11:55 AM, Nathaniel Smith wrote: > On Fri, May 4, 2018, 11:50 Serhiy Storchaka wrote: > >> >> Ideally any deprecated feature

Re: [Python-Dev] Process to remove a Python feature

On Fri, May 4, 2018, 11:50 Serhiy Storchaka wrote: > > Ideally any deprecated feature should have a replacement, and this > replacement should be available in at least one version before adding > the deprecation warning. > > X.Y: added a replacement > > X.Y+1: added a

Re: [Python-Dev] Process to remove a Python feature

04.05.18 20:57, Matthias Bussonnier пише: But when I hit a DeprecationWarning message there is one crucial piece of information missing most of the time: Since which version number it's deprecated (and sometime since when the replacement is available could be good if overlap between

Re: [Python-Dev] Process to remove a Python feature

I would like to take a step back, I think that for removal of feature you need to make sure that the "old way" is not common enough. I think that in many context, users of Python see DeprecationWarnings as a stick. A deprecation warning means you'll have to do some work. A pep or a document that

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email (was: Drop/deprecate Tkinter?)

On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 4:43 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Thu, May 03, 2018 at 06:31:03PM +, Brett Cannon wrote: > > > No one is saying people can't be upset and if you are ever upset there's > > something wrong; we're human beings after all. But those of us speaking >

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email (was: Drop/deprecate Tkinter?)

On Fri, May 04, 2018 at 09:04:20AM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote: > Thank you Steven! I assume that Brian hadn't seen my response (such crossed > messages due to delivery delays are very common in this mailing list). > > I'd like to use your email (nearly) verbatim to start off the discussion >

[Python-Dev] Summary of Python tracker Issues

ACTIVITY SUMMARY (2018-04-27 - 2018-05-04) Python tracker at https://bugs.python.org/ To view or respond to any of the issues listed below, click on the issue. Do NOT respond to this message. Issues counts and deltas: open6629 (+14) closed 38547 (+37) total 45176 (+51) Open issues

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email (was: Drop/deprecate Tkinter?)

Thank you Steven! I assume that Brian hadn't seen my response (such crossed messages due to delivery delays are very common in this mailing list). I'd like to use your email (nearly) verbatim to start off the discussion about civility we're going to have at the Language Summit. On Fri, May 4,

Re: [Python-Dev] Process to remove a Python feature

04.05.18 16:14, Steven D'Aprano пише: Have there been many features removed since 3.1? I know there were some features removed in 3.0, like callable(), which were later put back in, but I can't think of anythin removed since then. If there were, the pace of it is pretty slow. Read "What's New"

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email (was: Drop/deprecate Tkinter?)

On Thu, May 03, 2018 at 06:31:03PM +, Brett Cannon wrote: > No one is saying people can't be upset and if you are ever upset there's > something wrong; we're human beings after all. But those of us speaking up > about the tone are saying that you can also wait until you're not so upset > to

Re: [Python-Dev] Python linkage on macOS

On May 4, 2018, at 08:10, Ray Donnelly wrote: > On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: >> On Fri, 04 May 2018 00:21:54 + >> Ray Donnelly wrote: >>> Anyway, it is obviously safer for us to do what upstream

Re: [Python-Dev] Process to remove a Python feature

On Fri, May 04, 2018 at 12:56:57PM +0200, Victor Stinner wrote: > Sorry, when I wrote "Python 4" I mean "the new Python release which > introduces a lot of backward incompatible changes and will annoy > everyone". It can be Python 3.9 or 3.10, or whatever version > (including 4.3 if you want) :-)

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

Me neither, but I do want people to accept that there are norms, which should usually be observed. S Steve Holden On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 11:14 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > On Fri, 4 May 2018 08:23:19 +0100 > Steve Holden wrote: > > > > ​Yup. Tolerance

Re: [Python-Dev] A fast startup patch (was: Python startup time)

On 4 May 2018 at 06:13, Carl Shapiro wrote: > Hello, > > Yesterday Neil Schemenauer mentioned some work that a colleague of mine > (CCed) and I have done to improve CPython start-up time. Given the recent > discussion, it seems timely to discuss what we are doing and

Re: [Python-Dev] Python linkage on macOS

On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > On Fri, 04 May 2018 00:21:54 + > Ray Donnelly wrote: >> >> Yes, on Windows there's always a python?.dll. >> >> macOS is an interesting one. For Anaconda 5.0 I read somewhere (how's that >>

Re: [Python-Dev] Process to remove a Python feature

2018-05-02 19:24 GMT+02:00 Brett Cannon : > On Wed, 2 May 2018 at 02:12 Victor Stinner wrote: >> Does it mean that the Python 3 release following Python 2 end-of-life >> (2020) will be our next feared "Python 4"? Are we going to remove all >> deprecated

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

On Fri, 4 May 2018 08:23:19 +0100 Steve Holden wrote: > > ​Yup. Tolerance has to have its limits, and this came close to abusive > behaviour. ​ > > ​I suspect others among us might have been guilty of similar behaviours in > the past I certainly couldn't cast the first

[Python-Dev] Python linkage on macOS

On Fri, 04 May 2018 00:21:54 + Ray Donnelly wrote: > > Yes, on Windows there's always a python?.dll. > > macOS is an interesting one. For Anaconda 5.0 I read somewhere (how's that > for a useless reference - and perhaps I got the wrong end of the stick) > that

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 9:13 PM, Brett Cannon wrote: > > > On Thu, 3 May 2018 at 12:29 Guido van Rossum wrote: > >> EVENTUALLY WE'LL ALL BE SHOUTING ALL THE TIME. Sad. >> > > Yep. And that leads to burn-out. So while Ivan may have lucked out in > getting

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

> > Whatever anyone may think of this, it worked. I help on other forums and have two practises that I work at: When asking a question I try to be polite. It may be more challenging to be ultra polite but sometimes it's worthwhile. Being told I am polite online is a much rarer accolade and can