Jesse Noller gmail.com> writes:
>
> I really do think this mail thread needs to move to disutils-sig or
> python-ideas.
+1
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On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 2:36 AM, David Lyon wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:56:20 +1000, Nick Coghlan
> wrote:
>> The words "eggs" brings with it a whole lot more baggage than just the
>> sum of the technical parts in the language core that support them
>> (primarily distutils and zipimport).
>
>
David Lyon wrote:
> There's an awful lot to take in, and there must be 20,000 lines of
> emails for every 1 line of python code that is required to fix this
> thing.
Yep, which goes way back to one of my first emails in this thread:
compared to the social aspects, the technical aspects of packagin
On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:56:20 +1000, Nick Coghlan
wrote:
> The words "eggs" brings with it a whole lot more baggage than just the
> sum of the technical parts in the language core that support them
> (primarily distutils and zipimport).
Well, in this case, (talking metaphorically) we have the abi
Nick Coghlan wrote:
David Lyon wrote:
Your whole email whilst perphaps technically correct is terribly
difficult for a software engineering person to follow.
It made perfect sense to me.
Like David, I found it a bit disjointed too.
The words "eggs" brings with it a whole lot more baggage t
David Lyon wrote:
> Your whole email whilst perphaps technically correct is terribly
> difficult for a software engineering person to follow.
It made perfect sense to me.
The words "eggs" brings with it a whole lot more baggage than just the
sum of the technical parts in the language core that su
2009/7/28 David Lyon :
> ok - I get it.
[...]
> Your whole email whilst perphaps technically correct is terribly
> difficult for a software engineering person to follow.
OK, I'm sorry if my attempts to help you didn't do so.
> Let me go away confused... don't ask me any more questions or
> el
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:50:00 +0100, Paul Moore wrote:
> egg_info data is in to allow "standard" (setup.py install and hence OS
> package manager managed) packages to provide metadata in a
> discoverable way. Using a format that is (reasonably) compatible with
> setuptools is simply a matter of co-
2009/7/28 David Lyon :
> On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 07:55:11 +0200, "Martin v. Löwis"
> wrote:
>> Yes, eggs have the same problem. That's one of the reasons they
>> don't get integrated into Python.
>
> Yes but egg_info is included in python...
>
> and the egg is not
>
> Hence, what goes in and what
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 07:55:11 +0200, "Martin v. Löwis"
wrote:
> Yes, eggs have the same problem. That's one of the reasons they
> don't get integrated into Python.
Yes but egg_info is included in python...
and the egg is not
Hence, what goes in and what doesn't isn't always that rational. I'
>> So there are now two incompatible ways to install a package:
>> either with the native manager, or with pythonpkgmgr. If you install
>> them one way, and try to remove them the other way, you lose.
>
> pythonpkgmgr is only a thin wrapper for easy_install/pip.
>
> If there is a problem, then it
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 07:12:25 +0200, "Martin v. Löwis"
wrote:
> So there are now two incompatible ways to install a package:
> either with the native manager, or with pythonpkgmgr. If you install
> them one way, and try to remove them the other way, you lose.
pythonpkgmgr is only a thin wrapper fo
>>> pythonpkgmgr is not so different to that. And the idea behind it is
>>> to bring consistancy in package management across the different
>>> platforms.
>> At the cost of being inconsistent within a platform.
>
> It has the most generic of user interfaces.
>
[...]
>
> So I respectfully say th
David Lyon writes:
> It manages local developer modules for python 2.6+.
> pythonpkgmgr is aimed at featherweight users.
You were talking about "developers", but now they're "featherweight
users"? I'm sorry, but the more you post, the less I like the idea of
including it with Python. Please
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 19:33:37 +0200, "Martin v. Löwis"
wrote:
>> pythonpkgmgr is not so different to that. And the idea behind it is
>> to bring consistancy in package management across the different
>> platforms.
>
> At the cost of being inconsistent within a platform.
It has the most generic o
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 19:31:40 +0200, "Martin v. Löwis"
wrote:
>>> If they read examples, they will see import
>>> statements, and then they have to find out how to make those work.
>>> Does your tool help with that?
>>
>> Yes. It will open the website or homepage to the project/package
>> in quest
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 20:12:54 +0900, "Stephen J. Turnbull"
wrote:
> Not you; pythonpkgmgr. You've said nothing about how pythonpkgmgr is
> supposed to deal with multiple installed versions of Python
Under windows it can deal with multiple versions of python. You just
go to options and select whic
David Lyon writes:
> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:18:25 +0900, "Stephen J. Turnbull"
> wrote:
> > [1] on
> > my part") and sysadmin goals ("something that works and plays nicely
> > with the rest of the system").
> >
> > pythonpkgmgr seems entirely oblivious to the latter issue, and not
> > par
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 19:29:14 +0900, David Cournapeau
wrote:
>> My only point is that Windows ain't no embedded system. It's not
>> short on memory or disk space. If a package manager is 5 megabytes
>> extra say, with it's libraries.. what's the extra download time on
>> that ? compared to three da
On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 7:20 PM, David Lyon wrote:
> My only point is that Windows ain't no embedded system. It's not
> short on memory or disk space. If a package manager is 5 megabytes
> extra say, with it's libraries.. what's the extra download time on
> that ? compared to three days+ stuffing
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:23:59 +0100, Michael Foord
wrote:
> It would be great to have a decent visual package manager for Python.
Hopefully one day we'll have one - haha
> It needs to be built on top of the work that Tarek is doing with
> distutils (and be compatible with his Distribute fork o
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:18:25 +0900, "Stephen J. Turnbull"
wrote:
> [1] on
> my part") and sysadmin goals ("something that works and plays nicely
> with the rest of the system").
>
> pythonpkgmgr seems entirely oblivious to the latter issue, and not
> particularly compatible with the way package m
"Martin v. Löwis" writes:
> > pythonpkgmgr is not so different to that. And the idea behind it is
> > to bring consistancy in package management across the different
> > platforms.
>
> At the cost of being inconsistent within a platform.
Indeed, and that seems to be one of the really big s
>> I'm a user, and personally I don't want Yet Another Integrated Package
>> Management Tool. What I really want is the ability to install Python
>> packages using the PM tool I already use, namely yum.
>
> ok - but no alternative to that is available on windows.
For removal of packages, an al
>> If they read examples, they will see import
>> statements, and then they have to find out how to make those work.
>> Does your tool help with that?
>
> Yes. It will open the website or homepage to the project/package
> in question.
How does it know the project in question?
> Using pythonpkgmg
David Lyon wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:05:07 +1000, Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
But you shouldn't expect the
Python dev team to accept an unproven tool into the official library
before demonstrating both the need and the solution.
Of course... that's why I started off by asking what th
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:05:07 +1000, Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
> But you shouldn't expect the
> Python dev team to accept an unproven tool into the official library
> before demonstrating both the need and the solution.
Of course... that's why I started off by asking what the process is.
I am acc
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 08:43:07 +0200, "Martin v. Löwis"
wrote:
> Hmm. I'm -0 on providing a tool whose only purpose is to download
> files from a web server. I always use a web browser for that...
It does a lot more than that. Firstly it shows what packages you
already have installed and lets you m
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> I'm a user, and personally I don't want Yet Another Integrated Package
> Management Tool. What I really want is the ability to install Python
> packages using the PM tool I already use, namely yum. (And I'd like a
> pony.)
Picking up on this point... out of curiousity,
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 02:32:55 pm David Lyon wrote:
> > In addition to the other constraints you'll have to meet for this
> > to happen, you also have to wait a rather long time (several years)
> > before inclusion becomes possible. This time is necessary for the
> > community to accept your tool, a
> You can't seriously expect users to wait for years for an integrated
> package management tool. Especially on Windows - that's cruel :-)
Hmm. I'm -0 on providing a tool whose only purpose is to download
files from a web server. I always use a web browser for that...
> A Package Manager isn't a
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 11:42:13 +0200, "Martin v. Löwis"
wrote:
>> It's my intention to get a Package Manager included in standard
>> python - yes.
>
> In addition to the other constraints you'll have to meet for this
> to happen, you also have to wait a rather long time (several years)
> before inc
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:47:21 -0400, Terry Reedy wrote:
The Python Package Manager can be written to work in console mode.
>>> I think this would be best.
>>
>> Haha - I'm glad somebody took this seriously... It was a sort of a joke
>> comment but it's a serious possibility.
>
> I took it
On 2009-07-25 17:28, Brett Cannon wrote:
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 18:06, Jean-Paul Calderone mailto:exar...@divmod.com>> wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:40:52 +1000, Ben Finney
mailto:ben%2bpyt...@benfinney.id.au>>
wrote:
[snip]
If that is not your intent, then your
On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 15:28, Brett Cannon wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 18:06, Jean-Paul Calderone wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:40:52 +1000, Ben Finney <
>> ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au > wrote:
>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> If that is not your intent, then your application shouldn't be ment
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 18:06, Jean-Paul Calderone wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:40:52 +1000, Ben Finney
> >
> wrote:
>
>> [snip]
>>
>> If that is not your intent, then your application shouldn't be mentioned
>> in standard Python documentation.
>>
>>
> Hm. But docutils isn't part of the stand
David Lyon wrote:
The Python Package Manager can be written to work in console mode.
I think this would be best.
Haha - I'm glad somebody took this seriously... It was a sort of a joke
comment but it's a serious possibility.
I took it seriously too ;-). It seems to me that you project can
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:28:51 +0100, Paul Moore wrote:
> ??? I see no bias as you describe in the distutils enhancement work.
ok
> Native applications are by definition not platform neutral. How does
> your proposal help Linux users? Mac OS? Solaris?
I'm doing a Linux/Solaris version. But I find
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:00:13 +1000, Ben Finney
wrote:
> I think you know quite well what “depend on” means in this instance,
> so this is taking it to silly extremes.
haha - yes - no offence.
It was just bad humour.
Have a nice weekend
David
___
Pyt
> It's my intention to get a Package Manager included in standard
> python - yes.
In addition to the other constraints you'll have to meet for this
to happen, you also have to wait a rather long time (several years)
before inclusion becomes possible. This time is necessary for the
community to acc
2009/7/25 David Lyon :
>> It would, in fact, be best to work with the team performing ongoing
>> active standardisation of distutils functionality.
>
> I am already doing that.
>
> But there is a bias against windows development and a bias
> against native applications. That's fine because I know t
David Lyon writes:
> On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 11:25:27 +1000, Ben Finney
> > You omit the important part: adding a new thing to Python *so long
> > as it doesn't depend on anything outside Python*.
>
> I'm signing out on this silly discussion for now
>
> Any python program is dependant on thing
David Lyon writes:
> On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 17:08:32 +0100, Paul Moore wrote:
> > I read this as meaning that David was proposing to ship a built
> > application (on Windows, bundled up with something like py2exe, I
> > guess) and any supporting DLLs such as the wxWindows ones would be
> > bundl
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 11:25:27 +1000, Ben Finney
> You omit the important part: adding a new thing to Python *so long as it
> doesn't depend on anything outside Python*.
I'm signing out on this silly discussion for now
Any python program is dependant on things "outside" python. For
example an
Ben Finney writes:
> The functionality you often discuss around this tool would be best
> implemented independently of any UI. It would, in fact, be best to
> work with the team performing ongoing active standardisation of
> distutils functionality.
Sloppy use of “in fact”. That should be “in my
At 08:09 PM 7/24/2009 -0400, David Lyon wrote:
Presently it used pkg_resources to read the list of packages installed
which is part of setuptools. I was told it was the "right" and only way
to read a list of packages.
"Right" is relative, but right now it is certainly the *only* way to
read a
David Lyon writes:
> Not at all. In source form the pythonpkgmgr requires wx package. In
> executable form it does not.
The only way it could be added is in source form; that's essential for
free software like Python. So, if it's not suitable for adding to Python
in source form, it's not suitabl
Jean-Paul Calderone writes:
> Hm. But docutils isn't part of the standard library, and the
> documentation refers to it.
Fair enough, because the documentation is generated using Docutils.
> And the docs link to ActivePython and Enthought's Python distribution.
I consider those to be exception
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:40:52 +1000, Ben Finney
wrote:
> I interpret this as expressing your intent to (eventually) have your
> application included in standard Python.
It's my intention to get a Package Manager included in standard
python - yes.
>> I wasn't suggesting including it in the standar
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:40:52 +1000, Ben Finney
wrote:
[snip]
If that is not your intent, then your application shouldn't be mentioned
in standard Python documentation.
Hm. But docutils isn't part of the standard library, and the documentation
refers to it. And the docs link to ActivePytho
david.l...@preisshare.net writes:
> Distutils was once seperate and was then included in the standard
> python.
>
> So i guess that I am working with the same goal in mind.
I interpret this as expressing your intent to (eventually) have your
application included in standard Python.
David Lyon
On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 03:23:57 +0200, Christian Heimes
wrote:
> I'm sorry to inform you that a wxWindows based solution has zero change
> to get into the Python standard library ever.
Is that a personal preference or is there a software engineering reason
for this?
I wasn't suggesting including i
On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 17:08:32 +0100, Paul Moore wrote:
> I read this as meaning that David was proposing to ship a built
> application (on Windows, bundled up with something like py2exe, I
> guess) and any supporting DLLs such as the wxWindows ones would be
> bundled in, but the wxPython package wo
On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 17:54:09 +0200, Georg Brandl wrote:
> David Lyon schrieb:
>> In executable form, the Package Manager does not require wxWidgets
>> to be installed.
>>
>> There is no dependency for this to be installed.
>
> What does "in exectuable form" mean?
Compiled with py2exe.
An execu
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:47, Sridhar Ratnakumar
wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 06:11:38 -0700, Jesse Noller
> wrote:
>
> Then why not include pip, easy_install, and this bash script I use to
>> install packages into core? The more the merrier, right?
>> Answer: None of these are standards, and a
On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 06:11:38 -0700, Jesse Noller wrote:
Then why not include pip, easy_install, and this bash script I use to
install packages into core? The more the merrier, right?
Answer: None of these are standards, and as nick points out, there's
issues with sysadmins, security, and other
2009/7/24 Georg Brandl :
> David Lyon schrieb:
>> On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 03:23:57 +0200, Christian Heimes
>> wrote:
>>> I'm sorry to inform you that a wxWindows based solution has zero change
>>> to get into the Python standard library ever. We are not going to add
>>> another GUI toolkit to the core
David Lyon schrieb:
> On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 03:23:57 +0200, Christian Heimes
> wrote:
>> I'm sorry to inform you that a wxWindows based solution has zero change
>> to get into the Python standard library ever. We are not going to add
>> another GUI toolkit to the core distribution.
>
> In executab
On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 03:23:57 +0200, Christian Heimes
wrote:
> I'm sorry to inform you that a wxWindows based solution has zero change
> to get into the Python standard library ever. We are not going to add
> another GUI toolkit to the core distribution.
In executable form, the Package Manager do
david.l...@preisshare.net wrote:
>> That's a document describing how to use âdistutilsâ, which is what
>> every
>> recipient of Python will already have installed.
>>
>>> Can I ask that you also provide a link for windows users
>>> to my project:
>>>
>>> http://sourceforge.net/projects/python
On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 18:30:58 +1000, Ben Finney
wrote:
> In which case you should work to get it accepted into standard Python
> *before* asking for it to be promoted in the standard Python
> documentation.
I'm very interested in how I would go about doing that.
Die-hard users probably know all
On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 5:43 AM, wrote:
>
>> Raising it without at least glancing at the list archives which hold
>> copious amounts of virtual text on that topic is somewhat inappropriate
>> though :)
>
> Well I have consulted every available expert on the distutils list to the
> point where I fe
david.l...@preisshare.net wrote:
>> Raising it without at least glancing at the list archives which hold
>> copious amounts of virtual text on that topic is somewhat inappropriate
>> though :)
>
> Well I have consulted every available expert on the distutils list to the
> point where I feel 'up' w
> Raising it without at least glancing at the list archives which hold
> copious amounts of virtual text on that topic is somewhat inappropriate
> though :)
Well I have consulted every available expert on the distutils list to the
point where I feel 'up' with the issues at hand.
They're great pe
david.l...@preisshare.net wrote:
> Distutils is a builtin module for 'pushing' a developer package 'to' pypi.
>
> But there is no corresponging mechanise for a user to 'pull' packages back.
>
> Surely this is a gap in the standard distro?
>
> So it is not inappropriate for me to ask about this o
david.l...@preisshare.net writes:
> >> Can I ask that you also provide a link for windows users
> >> to my project:
> >>
> >> http://sourceforge.net/projects/pythonpkgmgr/
> >
> > That doesn't seem at all appropriate; promoting third-party packages
> > isn't at all what the above document should
> That's a document describing how to use âdistutilsâ, which is what
> every
> recipient of Python will already have installed.
>
>> Can I ask that you also provide a link for windows users
>> to my project:
>>
>> http://sourceforge.net/projects/pythonpkgmgr/
>
> That doesn't seem at all app
David Lyon writes:
> I'm on the python-dev mailing list and somebody gave me a link
> to a page that you have done:
>
> http://docs.python.org/install/
That's a document describing how to use ‘distutils’, which is what every
recipient of Python will already have installed.
> Can I ask that y
> Can I ask that you also provide a link for windows users
> to my project:
>
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/pythonpkgmgr/
I fail to see how this project is relevant in the context
of explaining distutils. So you would have to come up with
a proposal of specific wording that makes the releva
Hi Greg,
I'm on the python-dev mailing list and somebody gave me a link
to a page that you have done:
http://docs.python.org/install/
Can I ask that you also provide a link for windows users
to my project:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pythonpkgmgr/
Our project provides an alternative to
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