Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Chris McDonough chr...@plope.com wrote: All of these are really pretty minor issues compared with the main benefit of not needing to ship everything with everything else. The killer feature is that developers can specify dependencies and users can have those

[Python-Dev] Cannot find the main Python library during installing some app.

2012-06-21 Thread Van Gao
hi, I got the error below during installing the libmobiledevice: checking consistency of all components of *python development environment... no* configure: error: Could not link test program to Python. Maybe the main Python library has been installed in some non-standard library path. If

Re: [Python-Dev] Cannot find the main Python library during installing some app.

2012-06-21 Thread Amaury Forgeot d'Arc
Hi, This mailing list is for the development *of* Python. Development *with* Python should be discussed on the python-list mailing list, or the comp.lang.python usenet group. There will be many people there willing to answer your question... 2012/6/21 Van Gao gaof...@126.com hi, I got the

Re: [Python-Dev] Cannot find the main Python library during installing some app.

2012-06-21 Thread Oleg Broytman
Hello. We are sorry but we cannot help you. This mailing list is to work on developing Python (adding new features to Python itself and fixing bugs); if you're having problems learning, understanding or using Python, please find another forum. Probably python-list/comp.lang.python mailing

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Dag Sverre Seljebotn
On 06/21/2012 05:57 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 3:29 AM, PJ Ebyp...@telecommunity.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 9:02 AM, Nick Coghlanncogh...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 9:46 PM, Antoine Pitrousolip...@pitrou.net wrote: Agreed, especially if the proven

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread David Cournapeau
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Chris McDonough chr...@plope.com wrote: All of these are really pretty minor issues compared with the main benefit of not needing to ship everything with everything else. The killer

[Python-Dev] import too slow on NFS based systems

2012-06-21 Thread Daniel Braniss
Hi, when lib/python/site-packages/ is accessed via NFS, open/stat/access is very expensive/slow. A simple solution is to use an in memory directory search/hash, so I was wondering if this has been concidered in the past, if not, and I come with a working solution for Unix (at least

Re: [Python-Dev] import too slow on NFS based systems

2012-06-21 Thread Oleg Broytman
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 01:17:01PM +0300, Daniel Braniss da...@cs.huji.ac.il wrote: when lib/python/site-packages/ is accessed via NFS, open/stat/access is very expensive/slow. A simple solution is to use an in memory directory search/hash, so I was wondering if this has been concidered in

[Python-Dev] Add os.path.resolve to simplify the use of os.readlink

2012-06-21 Thread Armin Ronacher
Due to an user error on my part I was not using os.readlink correctly. Since links can be relative to their location I think it would make sense to provide an os.path.resolve helper that automatically returns the absolute path: def resolve(filename): try: target =

Re: [Python-Dev] import too slow on NFS based systems

2012-06-21 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 13:17:01 +0300 Daniel Braniss da...@cs.huji.ac.il wrote: Hi, when lib/python/site-packages/ is accessed via NFS, open/stat/access is very expensive/slow. A simple solution is to use an in memory directory search/hash, so I was wondering if this has been concidered in

Re: [Python-Dev] Add os.path.resolve to simplify the use of os.readlink

2012-06-21 Thread Christian Heimes
Am 21.06.2012 12:23, schrieb Armin Ronacher: Due to an user error on my part I was not using os.readlink correctly. Since links can be relative to their location I think it would make sense to provide an os.path.resolve helper that automatically returns the absolute path: def

Re: [Python-Dev] Add os.path.resolve to simplify the use of os.readlink

2012-06-21 Thread Armin Ronacher
Hi, Am 21.06.2012 12:23, schrieb Armin Ronacher: Does the code handle a chain of absolute and relative symlinks correctly, for example a relative symlink that points to another relative symlink in a different directory that points to a file in a third directry? No, but that's a good point.

Re: [Python-Dev] Add os.path.resolve to simplify the use of os.readlink

2012-06-21 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 11:10:44 - Armin Ronacher armin.ronac...@active-4.com wrote: Hi, Am 21.06.2012 12:23, schrieb Armin Ronacher: Does the code handle a chain of absolute and relative symlinks correctly, for example a relative symlink that points to another relative symlink in a

Re: [Python-Dev] Add os.path.resolve to simplify the use of os.readlink

2012-06-21 Thread Christian Heimes
Am 21.06.2012 13:10, schrieb Armin Ronacher: Hello Armin, No, but that's a good point. It should attempt to resolve these in a loop until it either loops too often (would have to check the POSIX spec for a reasonable value) or until it terminates by finding an actual file or directory. The

Re: [Python-Dev] Add os.path.resolve to simplify the use of os.readlink

2012-06-21 Thread Oleg Broytman
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 11:10:44AM -, Armin Ronacher armin.ronac...@active-4.com wrote: would have to check the POSIX spec for a reasonable value POSIX allows 8 links: http://infohost.nmt.edu/~eweiss/222_book/222_book/0201433079/ch02lev1sec5.html _POSIX_SYMLOOP_MAX - number of

[Python-Dev] Fwd: Re: Add os.path.resolve to simplify the use of os.readlink

2012-06-21 Thread Calvin Spealman
-- Forwarded message -- (whoops from my phone) On Jun 21, 2012 6:32 AM, Armin Ronacher armin.ronac...@active-4.com wrote: Due to an user error on my part I was not using os.readlink correctly. Since links can be relative to their location I think it would make sense to provide

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Chris McDonough
On 06/21/2012 04:45 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Chris McDonoughchr...@plope.com wrote: All of these are really pretty minor issues compared with the main benefit of not needing to ship everything with everything else. The killer feature is that developers can

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Tarek Ziadé
On 6/21/12 11:08 AM, Dag Sverre Seljebotn wrote: ... David Cournapeau's Bento project takes the opposite approach, everything is explicit and without any magic. http://cournape.github.com/Bento/ It had its 0.1.0 release a week ago. Please, I don't want to reopen any discussions about Bento

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 7:28 PM, David Cournapeau courn...@gmail.com wrote: If specifying install dependencies is the killer feature of setuptools, why can't we have a very simple module that adds the necessary 3 keywords to record it, and let 3rd party tools deal with it as they wish ? That

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Tarek Ziadé
On 6/20/12 2:53 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 9:31 PM, Tarek Ziadéta...@ziade.org wrote: Yeah maybe this subset could be left in 3.3 and we'd remove packaging-the-installer part (pysetup, commands, compilers) I think it's a good idea ! OK, to turn this into a concrete

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Oscar Benjamin
On 21 June 2012 12:48, Chris McDonough chr...@plope.com wrote: On 06/21/2012 04:45 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Chris McDonoughchr...@plope.com wrote: All of these are really pretty minor issues compared with the main benefit of not needing to ship everything

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread David Cournapeau
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 7:28 PM, David Cournapeau courn...@gmail.com wrote: If specifying install dependencies is the killer feature of setuptools, why can't we have a very simple module that adds the necessary 3

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 9:48 PM, Chris McDonough chr...@plope.com wrote: On 06/21/2012 04:45 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: And, like it or not, setuptools has a serious PR problem due to the fact it monkeypatches the standard library, uses *.pth files to alter sys.path for every installed

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 10:19 PM, David Cournapeau courn...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 7:28 PM, David Cournapeau courn...@gmail.com wrote: If specifying install dependencies is the killer feature of

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Dag Sverre Seljebotn
On 06/21/2012 01:56 PM, Tarek Ziadé wrote: On 6/21/12 11:08 AM, Dag Sverre Seljebotn wrote: ... David Cournapeau's Bento project takes the opposite approach, everything is explicit and without any magic. http://cournape.github.com/Bento/ It had its 0.1.0 release a week ago. Please, I don't

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Chris McDonough
On 06/21/2012 08:21 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: Installing a distribution will change behavior whether or not sys.path is changed as a result. That's its purpose. No it won't. An ordinary package will only change the behaviour of Python applications that import a package by that name. Other

Re: [Python-Dev] Add os.path.resolve to simplify the use of os.readlink

2012-06-21 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 9:26 PM, Christian Heimes li...@cheimes.de wrote: BTW Is there a better way than raise OSError(errno.ELOOP, os.strerror(errno.ELOOP), filename) to raise a correct OSError with errno, errno message and filename? A classmethod like OSError.from_errno(errno, filename=None)

Re: [Python-Dev] Add os.path.resolve to simplify the use of os.readlink

2012-06-21 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 15:04:17 +0200 Christian Heimes li...@cheimes.de wrote: How about adding keyword support to OSError and derive the strerror from errno if the second argument is not given? That's not the original behaviour: Python 3.2.2+ (3.2:9ef20fbd340f, Oct 15 2011, 21:22:07) [GCC

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Tarek Ziadé
On 6/21/12 2:45 PM, Dag Sverre Seljebotn wrote: Guido was asked about build issues and scientific software at PyData this spring, and his take was that if scientific users have concerns that are that special, perhaps you just need to go and do your own thing. Which is what David is doing.

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 10:51 PM, Chris McDonough chr...@plope.com wrote: Is it reasonable to even assume there is only one-sys.path-to-rule-them-all? And that users install the set of libraries they need into a common place?  This quickly turns into failure, because Python is used for many,

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread PJ Eby
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:57 PM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote: Right - clearly enumerating the features that draw people to use setuptools over just using distutils should be a key element in any PEP for 3.4 I honestly think a big part of why packaging ended up being incomplete

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Vinay Sajip
Chris McDonough chrism at plope.com writes: On 06/21/2012 04:45 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: A packaging PEP needs to explain: - what needs to be done to eliminate any need for monkeypatching - what's involved in making sure that *.pth are *not* needed by default - making sure that executable

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Barry Warsaw
On Jun 21, 2012, at 07:48 AM, Chris McDonough wrote: I don't know about Red Hat but both Ubuntu and Apple put all kinds of stuff on the default sys.path of the system Python of the box that's related to their software's concerns only. I don't understand why people accept this but get crazy about

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 11:31 PM, PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote: So, if we are to draw any lesson from the past, it would seem to be, make sure that the people who'll be doing the work are actually going to be available through to the next Python version. Thanks for that write-up - I

Re: [Python-Dev] import too slow on NFS based systems

2012-06-21 Thread Daniel Braniss
On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 13:17:01 +0300 Daniel Braniss da...@cs.huji.ac.il wrote: Hi, when lib/python/site-packages/ is accessed via NFS, open/stat/access is very expensive/slow. A simple solution is to use an in memory directory search/hash, so I was wondering if this has been

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Alex Clark
Hi, On 6/21/12 7:56 AM, Tarek Ziadé wrote: On 6/21/12 11:08 AM, Dag Sverre Seljebotn wrote: ... David Cournapeau's Bento project takes the opposite approach, everything is explicit and without any magic. http://cournape.github.com/Bento/ It had its 0.1.0 release a week ago. Please, I don't

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Barry Warsaw
On Jun 21, 2012, at 08:51 AM, Chris McDonough wrote: The reason it's disappointing to see OS vendors mutating the default sys.path is because they put *very old versions of very common non-stdlib packages* (e.g. zope.interface, lxml) on sys.path by default. The path is tainted out of the box for

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Chris McDonough
On 06/21/2012 09:29 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: My only comment on that is this: Since this is a problem related to the installation of Python distributions, it should deal with the problems that Python developers have more forcefully than non-Python developers and non-programmers. Thanks to venv,

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 11:57 PM, Barry Warsaw ba...@python.org wrote: On Jun 21, 2012, at 07:48 AM, Chris McDonough wrote: I don't know about Red Hat but both Ubuntu and Apple put all kinds of stuff on the default sys.path of the system Python of the box that's related to their software's

Re: [Python-Dev] Add os.path.resolve to simplify the use of os.readlink

2012-06-21 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 11:16 PM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote: On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 15:04:17 +0200 Christian Heimes li...@cheimes.de wrote: How about adding keyword support to OSError and derive the strerror from errno if the second argument is not given? That's not the original

Re: [Python-Dev] import too slow on NFS based systems

2012-06-21 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 17:08:09 +0300 Daniel Braniss da...@cs.huji.ac.il wrote: There is such a thing in Python 3.3, although some stat() calls are still necessary to know whether the directory caches are fresh. Can you give it a try and provide some feedback? WOW! with a sample python

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Dag Sverre Seljebotn
On 06/21/2012 03:23 PM, Tarek Ziadé wrote: On 6/21/12 2:45 PM, Dag Sverre Seljebotn wrote: Guido was asked about build issues and scientific software at PyData this spring, and his take was that if scientific users have concerns that are that special, perhaps you just need to go and do your

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 12:12 AM, Chris McDonough chr...@plope.com wrote: On 06/21/2012 09:29 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: My only comment on that is this: Since this is a problem related to the installation of Python distributions, it should deal with the problems that Python developers have

Re: [Python-Dev] Add os.path.resolve to simplify the use of os.readlink

2012-06-21 Thread Phil Vandry
On 2012-06-21 06:23, Armin Ronacher wrote: Due to an user error on my part I was not using os.readlink correctly. Since links can be relative to their location I think it would make sense to provide an os.path.resolve helper that automatically returns the absolute path: def

Re: [Python-Dev] Add os.path.resolve to simplify the use of os.readlink

2012-06-21 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 10:23:25 - Armin Ronacher armin.ronac...@active-4.com wrote: Due to an user error on my part I was not using os.readlink correctly. Since links can be relative to their location I think it would make sense to provide an os.path.resolve helper that automatically returns

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Chris McDonough
On 06/21/2012 10:30 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: A tool to generate an OS-specific system package from a Python library project should be unrelated to a Python distribution *installer*. Instead, you'd use related tools that understood how to unpack the distribution packaging format to build one or

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Zooko Wilcox-O'Hearn
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:57 AM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote: Standard assumptions about the behaviour of site and distutils cease to be valid once setuptools is installed … - advocacy for the egg format and the associated sys.path changes that result for all Python programs

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 12:02:58 -0300 Zooko Wilcox-O'Hearn zo...@zooko.com wrote: Fortunately, this issue is fixable! I opened a bug report and I and a others have provided patches that makes setuptools stop doing this behavior. This makes the above documentation true again. The negative impact

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Chris Lambacher
Nick Coghlan ncoghlan at gmail.com writes: The Python community covers a broad spectrum of use cases, and I suspect that's one of the big reasons packaging can get so contentious - the goals end up being in direct conflict. Currently, I've identified at least half a dozen significant

Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] peps: The latest changes from Yury Selivanov. I can almost taste the acceptance!

2012-06-21 Thread Eric Snow
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:44 AM, larry.hastings python-check...@python.org wrote: http://hg.python.org/peps/rev/1edf1cecae7d changeset:   4472:1edf1cecae7d user:        Larry Hastings la...@hastings.org date:        Thu Jun 21 01:44:15 2012 -0700 summary:  The latest changes from Yury

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread PJ Eby
On Jun 21, 2012 11:02 AM, Zooko Wilcox-Oapos;Hearn zo...@zooko.com wrote: Philip J. Eby provisionally approved of one of the patches, except for some specific requirement that I didn't really understand how to fix and that now I don't exactly remember:

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread PJ Eby
On Jun 21, 2012 10:12 AM, Chris McDonough chr...@plope.com wrote: - Install package resources, which are non-Python source files that happen to live in package directories. I love this phrasing, by the way (non-Python source files). A pet peeve of mine is the insistence by some people that

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 12:59 AM, Chris McDonough chr...@plope.com wrote: On 06/21/2012 10:30 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: That will give at least 3 mechanisms for Python code to get onto a system: 1. Python dist -  converter -  system package -  system Python path 2. Python dist -  system Python

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Chris McDonough
On 06/21/2012 11:37 AM, PJ Eby wrote: On Jun 21, 2012 11:02 AM, Zooko Wilcox-Oapos;Hearn zo...@zooko.com mailto:zo...@zooko.com wrote: Philip J. Eby provisionally approved of one of the patches, except for some specific requirement that I didn't really understand how to fix and that now

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Chris McDonough
On 06/21/2012 11:45 AM, PJ Eby wrote: On Jun 21, 2012 10:12 AM, Chris McDonough chr...@plope.com mailto:chr...@plope.com wrote: - Install package resources, which are non-Python source files that happen to live in package directories. I love this phrasing, by the way (non-Python source

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Tarek Ziadé
On 6/21/12 5:50 PM, Chris McDonough wrote: A minor backwards incompat here to fix that issue would be appropriate, if only to be able to say hey, that issue no longer exists to folks who condemn the entire ecosystem based on that bug. At least, that is, if there will be another release of

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread PJ Eby
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Chris McDonough chr...@plope.com wrote: On 06/21/2012 11:37 AM, PJ Eby wrote: On Jun 21, 2012 11:02 AM, Zooko Wilcox-Oapos;Hearn zo...@zooko.com mailto:zo...@zooko.com wrote: Philip J. Eby provisionally approved of one of the patches, except for

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Chris McDonough
On 06/21/2012 12:26 PM, PJ Eby wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Chris McDonough chr...@plope.com mailto:chr...@plope.com wrote: On 06/21/2012 11:37 AM, PJ Eby wrote: On Jun 21, 2012 11:02 AM, Zooko Wilcox-Oapos;Hearn zo...@zooko.com mailto:zo...@zooko.com

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Tarek Ziadé
On 6/21/12 6:44 PM, Chris McDonough wrote: Yes. At the very least, there will be updated development snapshots (which are what buildout uses anyway). (Official releases are in a bit of a weird holding pattern. distribute's versioning scheme leads to potential confusion: if I release e.g.

[Python-Dev] PEP 362 6th edition

2012-06-21 Thread Yury Selivanov
Hello, The new revision of PEP 362 has been posted: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0362/ Summary: 1. Signature Parameter objects are now immutable 2. Signature.replace() and Parameter.replace() 3. Signature has a new default constructor, which accepts parameters list and a

Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] peps: The latest changes from Yury Selivanov. I can almost taste the acceptance!

2012-06-21 Thread Yury Selivanov
On 2012-06-21, at 11:34 AM, Eric Snow wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 2:44 AM, larry.hastings python-check...@python.org wrote: http://hg.python.org/peps/rev/1edf1cecae7d changeset: 4472:1edf1cecae7d user:Larry Hastings la...@hastings.org date:Thu Jun 21 01:44:15 2012 -0700

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Alex Clark
Hi, On 6/21/12 1:20 PM, Tarek Ziadé wrote: On 6/21/12 6:44 PM, Chris McDonough wrote: Yes. At the very least, there will be updated development snapshots (which are what buildout uses anyway). (Official releases are in a bit of a weird holding pattern. distribute's versioning scheme leads

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread PJ Eby
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Tarek Ziadé ta...@ziade.org wrote: telling us no one that is willing to maintain setuptools is able to do so. (according to him) Perhaps there is some confusion or language barrier here: what I said at that time was that the only people who I already *knew* to

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Chris McDonough
On 06/21/2012 01:20 PM, Tarek Ziadé wrote: On 6/21/12 6:44 PM, Chris McDonough wrote: Yes. At the very least, there will be updated development snapshots (which are what buildout uses anyway). (Official releases are in a bit of a weird holding pattern. distribute's versioning scheme leads

Re: [Python-Dev] import too slow on NFS based systems

2012-06-21 Thread PJ Eby
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Daniel Braniss da...@cs.huji.ac.ilwrote: On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 13:17:01 +0300 Daniel Braniss da...@cs.huji.ac.il wrote: Hi, when lib/python/site-packages/ is accessed via NFS, open/stat/access is very expensive/slow. A simple solution is to use

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Tarek Ziadé
On 6/21/12 7:49 PM, PJ Eby wrote: On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Tarek Ziadé ta...@ziade.org mailto:ta...@ziade.org wrote: telling us no one that is willing to maintain setuptools is able to do so. (according to him) Perhaps there is some confusion or language barrier here: what I

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Tarek Ziadé
On 6/21/12 4:26 PM, Dag Sverre Seljebotn wrote: project should give me so I can compile its extensions ? I think this has nothing to do with the tools/implementations. If you sit down and ask your self: what are the information a python I'm not sure if I understand. A project can't give the

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Tarek Ziadé
On 6/21/12 7:56 PM, Chris McDonough wrote: ... think any API has been removed or modified. In my opinion, distribute is the only project that should go forward since it's actively maintained and does not suffer from the bus factor. Yeah the biggest difference is Py3 compat, other than that

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Paul Moore
Can I take a step back and make a somewhat different point. Developer requirements are very relevant, sure. But the most important requirements are those of the end user. The person who simply wants to *use* a distribution, couldn't care less how it was built, whether it uses setuptools, or

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread PJ Eby
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 4:01 PM, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote: End users should not need packaging tools on their machines. Well, unless they're developers. ;-) Sometimes, the end user is a developer making use of a library. Development tools like distutils2, distribute/setuptools,

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Dag Sverre Seljebotn
On 06/21/2012 09:05 PM, Tarek Ziadé wrote: On 6/21/12 4:26 PM, Dag Sverre Seljebotn wrote: project should give me so I can compile its extensions ? I think this has nothing to do with the tools/implementations. If you sit down and ask your self: what are the information a python I'm not

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Tarek Ziadé
On 6/21/12 10:46 PM, Dag Sverre Seljebotn wrote: ... I think we should, as you proposed, list a few projects w/ compilation needs -- from the simplest to the more complex, then see how a standard *description* could be used by any tool It's not clear to me what you mean by description. Package

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Donald Stufft
On Thursday, June 21, 2012 at 4:01 PM, Paul Moore wrote: End users should not need packaging tools on their machines. Sort of riffing on this idea, I cannot seem to find a specification for what a Python package actually is. Maybe the first effort should focus on this instead of arguing one

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread David Cournapeau
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 10:04 PM, Tarek Ziadé ta...@ziade.org wrote: On 6/21/12 10:46 PM, Dag Sverre Seljebotn wrote: ... I think we should, as you proposed, list a few projects w/ compilation needs -- from the simplest to the more complex, then see how a standard *description* could be

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 22:46:58 +0200 Dag Sverre Seljebotn d.s.seljeb...@astro.uio.no wrote: The other thing is, the folks in distutils2 and myself, have zero knowledge about compilers. That's why we got very frustrated not to see people with that knowledge come and help us in this area.

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Dag Sverre Seljebotn
On 06/21/2012 11:04 PM, Tarek Ziadé wrote: On 6/21/12 10:46 PM, Dag Sverre Seljebotn wrote: ... I think we should, as you proposed, list a few projects w/ compilation needs -- from the simplest to the more complex, then see how a standard *description* could be used by any tool It's not clear

Re: [Python-Dev] Accepting PEP 397

2012-06-21 Thread Brian Curtin
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:54 AM, Brian Curtin br...@python.org wrote: As the PEP czar for 397, after Martin's final updates, I hereby pronounce this PEP accepted! Thanks to Mark Hammond for kicking it off, Vinay Sajip for writing up the code, Martin von Loewis for recent updates, and

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Dag Sverre Seljebotn
On 06/22/2012 12:05 AM, Dag Sverre Seljebotn wrote: On 06/21/2012 11:04 PM, Tarek Ziadé wrote: On 6/21/12 10:46 PM, Dag Sverre Seljebotn wrote: ... I think we should, as you proposed, list a few projects w/ compilation needs -- from the simplest to the more complex, then see how a standard

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread David Cournapeau
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 11:00 PM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.netwrote: On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 22:46:58 +0200 Dag Sverre Seljebotn d.s.seljeb...@astro.uio.no wrote: The other thing is, the folks in distutils2 and myself, have zero knowledge about compilers. That's why we got very

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Tarek Ziadé
On 6/21/12 11:55 PM, David Cournapeau wrote: I think there is a misunderstanding of what bento is: bento is not a compiler or anything like that. It is a set of libraries that work together to configure, build and install a python project. Concretely, in bento, there is - a part that

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Alex Clark
Hi, On 6/21/12 5:38 PM, Donald Stufft wrote: On Thursday, June 21, 2012 at 4:01 PM, Paul Moore wrote: End users should not need packaging tools on their machines. Sort of riffing on this idea, I cannot seem to find a specification for what a Python package actually is. FWIW according to

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Donald Stufft
On Thursday, June 21, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Alex Clark wrote: Hi, On 6/21/12 5:38 PM, Donald Stufft wrote: On Thursday, June 21, 2012 at 4:01 PM, Paul Moore wrote: End users should not need packaging tools on their machines. Sort of riffing on this idea, I cannot seem to find a

Re: [Python-Dev] Accepting PEP 397

2012-06-21 Thread Mark Hammond
On 22/06/2012 8:14 AM, Brian Curtin wrote: On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:54 AM, Brian Curtin br...@python.org wrote: As the PEP czar for 397, after Martin's final updates, I hereby pronounce this PEP accepted! Thanks to Mark Hammond for kicking it off, Vinay Sajip for writing up the code, Martin

[Python-Dev] PEP 362 - request for pronouncement

2012-06-21 Thread Yury Selivanov
Hello, On behalf of Brett, Larry, and myself, I'm requesting for PEP 362 pronouncement. The PEP, has been updated with all feedback from python-dev list discussions. I'm posting the latest version of it with this message. The PEP is also available here: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0362/

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 10:01 AM, Donald Stufft donald.stu...@gmail.com wrote: The idea i'm hoping for is to stop worrying about one implementation over another and hoping to create a common format that all the tools can agree upon and create/install. Right, and this is where it encouraged me

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 362 - request for pronouncement

2012-06-21 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:56 AM, Yury Selivanov yselivanov...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, On behalf of Brett, Larry, and myself, I'm requesting for PEP 362 pronouncement. The PEP, has been updated with all feedback from python-dev list discussions. I'm posting the latest version of it with

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of packaging in 3.3

2012-06-21 Thread Donald Stufft
On Friday, June 22, 2012 at 1:05 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: - I reject setup.cfg, as I believe ini-style configuration files are not appropriate for a metadata format that needs to include file listings and code fragments - I reject bento.info (http://bento.info), as I think if we accept