Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 2:18 AM, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de wrote: Am 26.09.2010 00:48, schrieb Georg Brandl: Am 26.09.2010 00:16, schrieb Martin v. Löwis: Redirect wiki.python.org to the Python wiki front page, and put the Jython wiki somewhere on its own (whether it's wiki.jython.org or not). But that can't work: then off-site links into either wiki break. Why -- they can be redirected easily. Ok, so please be more specific: what exactly should the new structure look like? From http://wiki.python.org/moin/SiteImprovements * Shorten URLs - remove /moin/ prefix from http://wiki.python.org/moin/SiteImprovements#Wiki * This requires moving Jython wiki from http://wiki.python.org/jython/ to http://wiki.jython.org/ and placing a temporary redirect on the previous places. -- ?techtonik 2010-03-16 08:39:34 Expanding: 1. Move http://wiki.python.org/moin/ to http://wiki.python.org/ 2. Setup 301 redirect from http://wiki.python.org/moin/(.*) to http://wiki.python.org/$1 3. Setup 301 redirect from http://wiki.python.org/jython/(.*) to http://wiki.jython.org/$1 (optional tasks below) 4. Setup Analytics account to track sources of redirection to the old pages and make this list public 5. Crowdsource changing source links 6. Drop redirection after redirected hits drop below 5% (even for 5% new page can be looked up through Google) -- anatoly t. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 03:53:58PM +0200, Georg Brandl wrote: * redirect from wiki.python.org to wiki.python.org/moin I've added a meta http-equiv element to the top page of wiki.python.org, so browsers will now jump to the /moin/ page immediately. This won't help crawlers that don't parse the HTML, but that probably doesn't matter. --amk ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 10:31 PM, A.M. Kuchling a...@amk.ca wrote: On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 03:53:58PM +0200, Georg Brandl wrote: * redirect from wiki.python.org to wiki.python.org/moin I've added a meta http-equiv element to the top page of wiki.python.org, so browsers will now jump to the /moin/ page immediately. This won't help crawlers that don't parse the HTML, but that probably doesn't matter. That did the trick, thanks. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
Hello Le 25/09/2010 10:20, anatoly techtonik a écrit : On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 1:27 AM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote: That's a good point actually... why *isn't* there a pydotorg-wiki-sig? (Aside from the obvious point of nobody ever asking for one). Because Yet Another Mailing List doesn't solve the problem. If you need one - go Google Groups like packaging folks did. Python ML are: 1. require dedicated admin to update, who is not a member of the group 2. don't have search 3. don't have optional thread subscription That's already enough to seek better platform for collaboration. This is debatable. Google Groups require a Google account, are not controlled by python-dev, require JavaScript to view the archives, don’t send MIME digests. The public archives for python.org MLs are indexed by Web search engines and are therefore searchable. Re: thread subscription, there is a setting about topics in the mailman admin but I don’t understand it. I suppose a good email client can do something equivalent. Community can perfectly manage the stuff without dedicated admins if there is a gameplay in it. I don’t agree with the split between admins and community. Admins are just trusted people from the community (which includes python-dev). My advice - subscribe people editing page by default (a checkbox near submit button). +1 wholeheartedly. With an admin team behind it, you can also make more use of ACLs to flag certain parts of the wiki as official by making them only editable by certain people I don’t know if this would be noticed enough to change the image of the wiki. I had started reviewing and updating all pages pertaining to distutils and distutils2 some months ago, and I viewed the wiki as a collaborative area to hash things out, before they can become official code or docs. Regards ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On Sep 27, 2010, at 10:36 PM, Éric Araujo wrote: Because Yet Another Mailing List doesn't solve the problem. If you need one - go Google Groups like packaging folks did. Python ML are: 1. require dedicated admin to update, who is not a member of the group 2. don't have search 3. don't have optional thread subscription That's already enough to seek better platform for collaboration. This is debatable. Google Groups require a Google account, are not controlled by python-dev, require JavaScript to view the archives, don’t send MIME digests. The public archives for python.org MLs are indexed by Web search engines and are therefore searchable. ObPlug: You can always read the archives at Gmane (e.g. via web or nntp) or mail-archive.com, both of which are searchable. Or you can help improve the world of open source mail archivers by getting involved in the Mailman project and helping us build the next generation archiver. :) -Barry signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
Éric Araujo writes: Le 25/09/2010 10:20, anatoly techtonik a écrit : Python ML are: 1. require dedicated admin to update, who is not a member of the group 2. don't have search 3. don't have optional thread subscription That's already enough to seek better platform for collaboration. This is debatable. Google Groups require a Google account, are not controlled by python-dev, require JavaScript to view the archives, don’t send MIME digests. The public archives for python.org MLs are indexed by Web search engines and are therefore searchable. Indeed. Mailman doesn't require a dedicated admin to operate, only to set up. Some things go better if you've got part-time admins (moderation in particular). I agree with techtonik that a better platform is apparently needed, but this is a client-server system, and the problem is in the client. Ie, he should upgrade his MUA to one that does threading properly, and allows priorities to be given to threads. (Emacs/Gnus is the one I'm familiar with but surely there are others.) This is a contextual judgment, not an absolute: apparently most Python devs *do* use sufficiently powerful MUAs for their purposes. It makes sense for the minority to adopt the majority practice. Re: thread subscription, there is a setting about topics in the mailman admin but I don’t understand it. Mailman topics are a clumsy Subject-based filter, and require admin intervention to set up. They're quite valuable for low-to-medium- traffic lists with a variety of more or less defined topics (ie, if there were more traffic, you'd want to split the list), but are pretty much useless for this purpose. Community can perfectly manage the stuff without dedicated admins if there is a gameplay in it. I don’t agree with the split between admins and community. Admins are just trusted people from the community (which includes python-dev). No, they're not just trusted people. They're trusted people with greater privilege than the rest of us, and therefore a bottleneck for some operations. My advice - subscribe people editing page by default (a checkbox near submit button). +1 wholeheartedly. That default needs to be user-configurable. I would not want to be spammed with typo corrections on a page where all I did was correct a typo. I probably wouldn't even want to see major changes by default: I came, I saw, I conquered the typo and got my info, now leave me alone! With an admin team behind it, you can also make more use of ACLs to flag certain parts of the wiki as official by making them only editable by certain people I don’t know if this would be noticed enough to change the image of the wiki. I had started reviewing and updating all pages pertaining to distutils and distutils2 some months ago, and I viewed the wiki as a collaborative area to hash things out, before they can become official code or docs. I don't think we want to change the image of the wiki (as in anybody can edit)! What we may want is (1) to make it easy for those with the authority to update the official docs (but there's a very good story for putting them in a repo, perhaps associated with the sources, so this is a weak argument for reference-docs-in-wiki), and (2) make it easy for readers to cross reference the community documentation (often more detailed or less intimidatingly formal) and the reference manuals. (1) *may* suggest using the wiki engine to support editing, but I think most devs are strongly against that. (2) suggests using the wiki engine to easily or even automatically set up cross-references. I think that wiki is probably the best technology for this purpose at the present time, but I don't know if it's worth the effort to make the official documentation wiki-friendly (in the sense of allowing the wiki to generate links to community documentation from the reference manuals). ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On 9/25/2010 5:37 PM, Martin v. Löwis wrote: Unfortunately, most sites using OpenID seem have an awkward login process. Maybe it's just me (I don't use OpenID much) but I expect that without a lot more handholding of new users, OpenID actually turns more people away than any other registration/login process. So how do you like the OpenID login of PyPI, which has a Google, MyOpenID and Launchpad icon, which users need to click on to create in account or login? The ultra geeks demanded and got a separate page where they can enter long URLs. Having just tried this out. A few comments: 1) Registering via OpenID is a bit clumsy since there is a Register link that does not mention OpenID. 2) The URL registered with the OpenID provider is a bit of a wart: http://pypi.python.org/pypi?:action=openid_return; vs. http://bitbucket.org/; 3) The email I received asked me to Complete your Cheese Shop registration which I think is just an oversight since the relabeling to pypi. 4) It's a bit clumsy that Login pops up an HTTP Authentication prompt, which is useless to someone who only has never set a password and relies only on an OpenID credential. Furthermore, the 401 page does not provide a quick way to get to use OpenID. In general, I am pretty happy with pypi's support of OpenID considering it allowed me to use my own provider, which often has not been the case with other sites. My experience with trying to adopt OpenID as a way of life has been poor mostly because many sites fail to support anything but a few major OpenID providers (e.g., Google). I appreciate has a fast-path for those providers and yet let's me still use my own. Although, I think it would be nice if I didn't have to go to another page to do that, but I may be biased by having such a short OpenID URI. -- Scott Dial sc...@scottdial.com scod...@cs.indiana.edu ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
1) Registering via OpenID is a bit clumsy since there is a Register link that does not mention OpenID. Thanks. Fixed. 2) The URL registered with the OpenID provider is a bit of a wart: http://pypi.python.org/pypi?:action=openid_return; vs. http://bitbucket.org/; You mean, as this is what the provider then shows you for confirmation? Unfortunately, this can't be changed anymore, or many of the existing accounts break. When I started this, I was more unclear about the relationship of realm and return URL (I'm still unclear, not having used a realm yet). 3) The email I received asked me to Complete your Cheese Shop registration which I think is just an oversight since the relabeling to pypi. Ok, fixed. 4) It's a bit clumsy that Login pops up an HTTP Authentication prompt, which is useless to someone who only has never set a password and relies only on an OpenID credential. Furthermore, the 401 page does not provide a quick way to get to use OpenID. I think there is no way out wrt. to the basic auth prompt. I could label the Login link Password login if you think this would help. Preventing the browser from prompting the user on the chance they might want to enter an OpenID is not possible, and stopping to use basic authentication is not feasible. In general, I am pretty happy with pypi's support of OpenID considering it allowed me to use my own provider, which often has not been the case with other sites. I guess you are then not in the class of users Guido was referring to, but rather in the ultra geeks class. What regular user is actively searching for an OpenID provider? If you were using your facebook account (or some such) to log in (i.e. a service that the masses likely use and which happens to be an OpenID provider), I'd rather add another provider icon to the front page. Although, I think it would be nice if I didn't have to go to another page to do that, but I may be biased by having such a short OpenID URI. This is actually deliberate. I don't want to clutter the front page with a wide entry field. And again, enjoying a short OpenID URI probably does put you in the ultra geek category (which I seriously don't mean as an offense). I've learned that OpenID really is a mystery even to the fairly technical usership of PyPI. As an anecdote, a user was puzzled that, after registering the Google OpenID, all you need to do to login is to click on the google logo, and that no user interaction at all was required. This counters established expectations about security so much to actually confuse long-term internet users. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 8:16 AM, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de wrote: But that can't work: then off-site links into either wiki break. Georg isn't suggesting a general structural change, just a change to have the URL when you land *directly* on wiki.python.org automatically rewritten to resolve to wiki.python.org/moin. Any URL with additional path info would be handled the same as it is now. I've certainly run into this, since Firefox will turn wiki.p into wiki.python.org for me and it (mildly) irritates me every time that that doesn't actually take me to the front page of the wiki. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 6:20 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com wrote: My advice - subscribe people editing page by default (a checkbox near submit button). This way more people will receive notifications when a page is changed and will be more interested to contribute themselves. Of course, there must be a setting to opt out. My experience with the auto-nosy setting on Roundup actually makes me quite positive towards this idea. It's especially useful when coupled with the query for Issues followed by me and the new add me to the nosy list button. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
Am 26.09.2010 13:58, schrieb Nick Coghlan: On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 8:16 AM, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de wrote: But that can't work: then off-site links into either wiki break. Georg isn't suggesting a general structural change, just a change to have the URL when you land *directly* on wiki.python.org automatically rewritten to resolve to wiki.python.org/moin. I suppose you mean to redirect to? I think there would be problems if wiki.python.org actually returned the same content as wiki.python.org/moin. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 10:59 PM, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de wrote: Am 26.09.2010 13:58, schrieb Nick Coghlan: On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 8:16 AM, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de wrote: But that can't work: then off-site links into either wiki break. Georg isn't suggesting a general structural change, just a change to have the URL when you land *directly* on wiki.python.org automatically rewritten to resolve to wiki.python.org/moin. I suppose you mean to redirect to? I think there would be problems if wiki.python.org actually returned the same content as wiki.python.org/moin. I don't actually have any specific preference as to implementation details, aside from it being something that works without breaking the rest of the web server :) Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
Am 26.09.2010 14:59, schrieb Martin v. Löwis: Am 26.09.2010 13:58, schrieb Nick Coghlan: On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 8:16 AM, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de wrote: But that can't work: then off-site links into either wiki break. Georg isn't suggesting a general structural change, just a change to have the URL when you land *directly* on wiki.python.org automatically rewritten to resolve to wiki.python.org/moin. I suppose you mean to redirect to? I think there would be problems if wiki.python.org actually returned the same content as wiki.python.org/moin. I've been talking about redirecting all the time, haven't I? Plan is simple: * redirect from wiki.python.org to wiki.python.org/moin * (optionally) redirect from wiki.jython.org to wiki.python.org/jython -- or -- make wiki.jython.org the canonical URI for the Jython wiki and redirect from old /jython URIs there. Georg -- Thus spake the Lord: Thou shalt indent with four spaces. No more, no less. Four shall be the number of spaces thou shalt indent, and the number of thy indenting shall be four. Eight shalt thou not indent, nor either indent thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to four. Tabs are right out. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
I've been talking about redirecting all the time, haven't I? You said put the Jython wiki somewhere on its own. That seemed to suggest it won't be anymore at wiki.python.org/jython. * redirect from wiki.python.org to wiki.python.org/moin * (optionally) redirect from wiki.jython.org to wiki.python.org/jython -- or -- make wiki.jython.org the canonical URI for the Jython wiki and redirect from old /jython URIs there. I've asked Frank Wierzbicki which one he prefers. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On 9/26/2010 10:25 AM, Martin v. Löwis wrote: I've been talking about redirecting all the time, haven't I? You said put the Jython wiki somewhere on its own. That seemed to suggest it won't be anymore at wiki.python.org/jython. * redirect from wiki.python.org to wiki.python.org/moin * (optionally) redirect from wiki.jython.org to wiki.python.org/jython -- or -- make wiki.jython.org the canonical URI for the Jython wiki and redirect from old /jython URIs there. I've asked Frank Wierzbicki which one he prefers. Strikes me this is a much needed change. Thanks! regards Steve -- Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 DjangoCon US September 7-9, 2010http://djangocon.us/ See Python Video! http://python.mirocommunity.org/ Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On 9/26/2010 3:12 AM, Martin v. Löwis wrote: 2) The URL registered with the OpenID provider is a bit of a wart: http://pypi.python.org/pypi?:action=openid_return; vs. http://bitbucket.org/; You mean, as this is what the provider then shows you for confirmation? The provider also lists the trusted sites by these return URLs, and that is where I saw it as being a bit of a wart. I use the OpenID plugin for WordPress as my provider, so it may be that it doesn't do this correctly. I noticed that Google shows just pypi.python.org, but the WordPress plugin shows that return URL instead. Nevertheless, I agree that it's too late/not worth it to change that now. I think there is no way out wrt. to the basic auth prompt. I could label the Login link Password login if you think this would help. The basic auth prompt doesn't bother me so much as the fact that the 401 doesn't have a Use OpenID [Google] [myOpenID] [Launchpad] set of links; you have to use the brower's back button because the only links offered are to register or reset your password. Preventing the browser from prompting the user on the chance they might want to enter an OpenID is not possible, and stopping to use basic authentication is not feasible. In theory, you could catch usernames that started with http://;, but I imagine that only ultra geeks know their URIs (I have no idea what the URI for a Google account is). But, I don't see this as being worthwhile either; I just think it would be nice if the 401 page gave a quick way to correct one's mistake that didn't involve the back button. And again, enjoying a short OpenID URI probably does put you in the ultra geek category (which I seriously don't mean as an offense). No offense taken. :) -- Scott Dial sc...@scottdial.com scod...@cs.indiana.edu ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 21:56:20 -0400, Scott Dial scott+python-...@scottdial.com wrote: On 9/26/2010 3:12 AM, Martin v. Loewis wrote: Preventing the browser from prompting the user on the chance they might want to enter an OpenID is not possible, and stopping to use basic authentication is not feasible. In theory, you could catch usernames that started with http://;, but I No, Martin really meant not possible: once basic auth is started, the browser prompts for username and password and you are in basic-auth land thereafter; the web server has *no way* to tell the browser to *stop* using basic auth. imagine that only ultra geeks know their URIs (I have no idea what the URI for a Google account is). But, I don't see this as being worthwhile Well, my OpenId is 'david.bitdance.com', so even if you could get around the basic auth problem, looking for http://; wouldn't work. -- R. David Murray www.bitdance.com ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
No, Martin really meant not possible: once basic auth is started, the browser prompts for username and password and you are in basic-auth land thereafter; the web server has *no way* to tell the browser to *stop* using basic auth. Yes, but Scott proposed that OpenID users might fill in their OpenID in the username field and leave the password field empty. Technically, this would work - the browser would then get the OpenID redirect in response to the original request. imagine that only ultra geeks know their URIs (I have no idea what the URI for a Google account is). But, I don't see this as being worthwhile Well, my OpenId is 'david.bitdance.com', so even if you could get around the basic auth problem, looking for http://; wouldn't work. Sure - however, it would actually be possible to determine that this is an OpenID: perform discovery on it. If that succeeds, try to establish a provider association; if that also succeeds, redirect the user to the OpenID login process. However, I'd rather not do that, since OpenID users don't expect that kind of interface. Providing OpenID links on the login failure 401 response is reasonable, though. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On 9/26/2010 11:45 PM, R. David Murray wrote: On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 21:56:20 -0400, Scott Dial scott+python-...@scottdial.com wrote: On 9/26/2010 3:12 AM, Martin v. Loewis wrote: Preventing the browser from prompting the user on the chance they might want to enter an OpenID is not possible, and stopping to use basic authentication is not feasible. In theory, you could catch usernames that started with http://;, but I No, Martin really meant not possible: once basic auth is started, the browser prompts for username and password and you are in basic-auth land thereafter; the web server has *no way* to tell the browser to *stop* using basic auth. I agree that once you reply with a 401 that you will prompt the user, but my point was what username means in the Authorization header is open to interpretation by the HTTP server and/or script handling the GET request. imagine that only ultra geeks know their URIs (I have no idea what the URI for a Google account is). But, I don't see this as being worthwhile Well, my OpenId is 'david.bitdance.com', so even if you could get around the basic auth problem, looking for http://; wouldn't work. That's actually not a valid OpenID[1], but the OpenID specification says a relaying party MUST normalize identifiers[2] (in this case, prepending the http://;). I believe bugs.python.org does this by checking for a username first(?), and failing any matches, it normalizes it for OpenID discovery. Otherwise, I can always use the canonical form of my ID http://scottdial.com; to login (assuming ':' and '/' are illegal characters for usernames). I say all this not with the intent of saying pypi *needs* this, but to refute the notion that OpenID must be clumsy to use. [1] http://openid.net/specs/openid-authentication-2_0.html Identifier: An Identifier is either a http or https URI, (commonly referred to as a URL within this document), or an XRI (Reed, D. and D. McAlpin, “Extensible Resource Identifier (XRI) Syntax V2.0,” .) [XRI_Syntax_2.0]. [2] http://openid.net/specs/openid-authentication-2_0.html#normalization 3. Otherwise, the input SHOULD be treated as an http URL; if it does not include a http or https scheme, the Identifier MUST be prefixed with the string http://;. If the URL contains a fragment part, it MUST be stripped off together with the fragment delimiter character #. See Section 11.5.2 (HTTP and HTTPS URL Identifiers) for more information. -- Scott Dial sc...@scottdial.com scod...@cs.indiana.edu ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 1:27 AM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote: Antoine Given that few or none of us seem to (want to) actively Antoine contribute to the wiki, I'm afraid python-dev is not the place Antoine to ask. Perhaps a call should be issued on c.l.py ... It would be nice if you could actually send messages to the people who do actually update wiki content. Unfortunately, without donning my cape and blue tights, then digging into the users files on the wiki there's no real way to do that. That's bad. I'd really like to see the amount of my contributions so far. How about recording a session on MoinMoin hacking and drafting an upgrade plan? Who's gonna be the driver? That's a good point actually... why *isn't* there a pydotorg-wiki-sig? (Aside from the obvious point of nobody ever asking for one). Because Yet Another Mailing List doesn't solve the problem. If you need one - go Google Groups like packaging folks did. Python ML are: 1. require dedicated admin to update, who is not a member of the group 2. don't have search 3. don't have optional thread subscription That's already enough to seek better platform for collaboration. I must admit, that the various things I've thrown on there myself have been pretty much fire-and-forget. Without anyone that feels like they collectively own the wiki, the much needed pruning never happens. Community can perfectly manage the stuff without dedicated admins if there is a gameplay in it. I am doing the wiki works when I am redirected to outdated wiki pages from search. But I do it only if it doesn't take me more than 5 minutes, and if I can remember the password (and I know where an edit button is). My advice - subscribe people editing page by default (a checkbox near submit button). This way more people will receive notifications when a page is changed and will be more interested to contribute themselves. Of course, there must be a setting to opt out. With an admin team behind it, you can also make more use of ACLs to flag certain parts of the wiki as official by making them only editable by certain people (e.g. only devs, only the triage team, only the wiki admins). But keeping those user lists up to date is itself something that requires a strong wiki admin team. That's a dead way. Wiki should be open for everyone. Just need more people subscribed to revert unwelcome changes. That is to make timeline more visible, because on wiki.python.org it is _not_ intuitive. It may worth to see how Mercurial wiki is managed - I've picked up the bookmarks monitoring habit from it. Maybe a design change will help, but again - there is no entrypoint for people with design skills to start. A lot of problems. All on the surface. Mailing list won't help. What's next? -- anatoly t. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 1:31 PM, Michael Foord fuzzy...@voidspace.org.uk wrote: More wiki and website maintainers needed! That's the consequence. You need to seek the reason why there are no maintainers or active members on pydotorg-www lists. I've expressed my thoughts earlier. On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 6:40 AM, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: For me, the number one roadblock is unfamiliarity -- I always forget that there is a Python wiki. For me a major annoyance is the empty page with two links on wiki.python.org While it allows to tell new people that there is also a Jython wiki, my vision that it should be instead be oriented on existing contributors immediately providing instruments to work with Python wiki. So if smb. need Jython wiki - it should be moved to wiki.jython.org I'd start from there. Who can do this? -- anatoly t. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 8:22 AM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com wrote: For me a major annoyance is the empty page with two links on wiki.python.org While it allows to tell new people that there is also a Jython wiki, my vision that it should be instead be oriented on existing contributors immediately providing instruments to work with Python wiki. So if smb. need Jython wiki - it should be moved to wiki.jython.org That's funny, I've never seen that page before. Does it get linked to from somewhere? -- David blog: http://www.traceback.org twitter: http://twitter.com/dstanek ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
Am 25.09.2010 15:15, schrieb David Stanek: On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 8:22 AM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com wrote: For me a major annoyance is the empty page with two links on wiki.python.org While it allows to tell new people that there is also a Jython wiki, my vision that it should be instead be oriented on existing contributors immediately providing instruments to work with Python wiki. So if smb. need Jython wiki - it should be moved to wiki.jython.org That's funny, I've never seen that page before. Does it get linked to from somewhere? It's at http://wiki.python.org/, and FTR, it has annoyed me as well. Georg -- Thus spake the Lord: Thou shalt indent with four spaces. No more, no less. Four shall be the number of spaces thou shalt indent, and the number of thy indenting shall be four. Eight shalt thou not indent, nor either indent thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to four. Tabs are right out. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
Hello, I've been following this thread all week at work, but I thought it might be time to respond to the different remarks in a single response, given that I am involved in editing and maintaining the Wiki on python.org, and I had a strong enough opinion about such things to give a talk about it at EuroPython that some of you attended: http://wiki.europython.eu/Talks/Web_Collaboration_And_Python/Talk Guido van Rossum wrote: On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Martin v. Löwis martin at v.loewis.de wrote: There actually is an admin team, and they actually do set ACLs. Who are they? IIUC, this is primarily for spam protection, though. So would they object against additions to the team? The administrators are generally the people on the following page: http://wiki.python.org/moin/AdminGroup Someone may have special powers, particularly if they have shell access to the machine running the Wiki, but there's no secret brotherhood. In fact, I recall advocating that Carl Trachte get admin powers given his continuing high-quality contributions, so we can say that people aren't denying others administrative privileges if that person is clearly doing good work and would benefit from being able to have those privileges. [Later on...] Guido van Rossum wrote: On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 3:31 AM, Michael Foord fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk wrote: Wiki maintenance is discussed, along with other python.org maintenance topics, on the pydotorg-www mailing list: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www Which has hidden its membership (even to members). Does it really need to appear that secretive? At least the message archive is open and has all the usual suspects. As we're now seeing, people don't feel that it's acceptable to publish the subscribers list, and I think that it's a complete distraction to seek to do so, anyway. It's not as if everyone on that list has special privileges and is preventing newcomers from joining it. More wiki and website maintainers needed! Maybe a prominent wiki page with info about how to join the list and the responsibilities / needs would help? Also, I gotta say that the wiki login process is awkward. MoinMoin supports OpenID, although I did find and report issues with Moin 1.9 in this regard. Something on my now-huge list of things to do is to make Moin authentication better, especially where there might be a choice of authentication methods. Georg Brandl wrote: Am 23.09.2010 22:25, schrieb anatoly techtonik: On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Barry Warsaw barry at python.org wrote: I certainly agree with that. So, how can we solve those problems? Radomir has shell access now so perhaps we can ask him to make the Python wiki theme more visually appealing. What roadblocks do people encounter when they want to help garden or reorganize the wiki? First of all Wiki is outdated. Correct me, but python.org specific customizations are not modules, but patches that makes it hard to update the Wiki to latest version or add new customizations. That's why we have a Moin core developer on the team. ISTM that Moin 1.x is notoriously hard to extend -- once you go beyond plugins adding new wiki macros -- which is part of what the team wants to fix in 2.x. Although I understand the sentiments about specific customizations, python.org should only have its theme as something that isn't a generic extension to MoinMoin, and that theme should be actively maintained. When python.org switched its architecture a while ago, the special theme presumably came with the deal, but it's been so out of date for so long that I switched to one of the standard themes years ago. Fortunately, Radomir's EuroPython theme is actively maintained, works with recent MoinMoin releases, looks a lot better than the old theme, and is used elsewhere. As for Moin 1.x being notoriously hard to extend beyond macros, you can get a long way with macros and actions, although I agree that sometimes it's possible to hit architectural constraints. Second - ugly Creole syntax. I am for inter-cooperation between wikis, and I understand that for non-developer communities [] symbols imposing problems, but as an open source developer I am addicted to Trac and Google Code syntax and never had problems with those. This isn't Creole syntax, it's Moin wiki syntax. And face it, it's not going to change. It's also not so much different from Trac wiki syntax. I never agreed with this complaint, anyway. When discussing this previously with Anatoly, I went as far as to ask on #moin where Radomir actually posted a good summary of the syntax differences: http://wiki.python.org/moin/SiteImprovements/WikiSyntaxComparison I invite anyone to justify claims that the old style (which Trac adopted) was better. Complaints about double bracketing are specious: MediaWiki has different bracketing levels and it's really confusing. Fourth. GPL license.
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On 25/09/2010 20:12, Paul Boddie wrote: [snip...] Guido van Rossum wrote: On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 3:31 AM, Michael Foord fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk wrote: Wiki maintenance is discussed, along with other python.org maintenance topics, on the pydotorg-www mailing list: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www Which has hidden its membership (even to members). Does it really need to appear that secretive? At least the message archive is open and has all the usual suspects. As we're now seeing, people don't feel that it's acceptable to publish the subscribers list, To be fair, quite a few people said they thought it was fine / a good thing. A couple (maybe 3?) said that as the list was originally advertised with the member list hidden it would be unfair to change. So based on responses, more people think it *is* acceptable. So long as we give notice for the change, so that anyone who doesn't want their name associated with the list can unsubscribe, I don't see why there should be a problem. All the best, Michael and I think that it's a complete distraction to seek to do so, anyway. It's not as if everyone on that list has special privileges and is preventing newcomers from joining it. -- http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/ http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (”BOGUS AGREEMENTS”) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
Am 25.09.2010 21:12, schrieb Paul Boddie: Georg Brandl wrote: Am 23.09.2010 22:25, schrieb anatoly techtonik: On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Barry Warsaw barry at python.org wrote: I certainly agree with that. So, how can we solve those problems? Radomir has shell access now so perhaps we can ask him to make the Python wiki theme more visually appealing. What roadblocks do people encounter when they want to help garden or reorganize the wiki? First of all Wiki is outdated. Correct me, but python.org specific customizations are not modules, but patches that makes it hard to update the Wiki to latest version or add new customizations. That's why we have a Moin core developer on the team. ISTM that Moin 1.x is notoriously hard to extend -- once you go beyond plugins adding new wiki macros -- which is part of what the team wants to fix in 2.x. Although I understand the sentiments about specific customizations, python.org should only have its theme as something that isn't a generic extension to MoinMoin, and that theme should be actively maintained. When python.org switched its architecture a while ago, the special theme presumably came with the deal, but it's been so out of date for so long that I switched to one of the standard themes years ago. Fortunately, Radomir's EuroPython theme is actively maintained, works with recent MoinMoin releases, looks a lot better than the old theme, and is used elsewhere. As a disclaimer, I have no idea about the specific configuration of Moin used at wiki.python.org. As for Moin 1.x being notoriously hard to extend beyond macros, you can get a long way with macros and actions, although I agree that sometimes it's possible to hit architectural constraints. It's just that every Moin installation I've come across used custom patches, and as a consequence was difficult to update. Georg -- Thus spake the Lord: Thou shalt indent with four spaces. No more, no less. Four shall be the number of spaces thou shalt indent, and the number of thy indenting shall be four. Eight shalt thou not indent, nor either indent thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to four. Tabs are right out. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 12:12 PM, Paul Boddie p...@boddie.org.uk wrote: Guido van Rossum wrote: Also, I gotta say that the wiki login process is awkward. MoinMoin supports OpenID, although I did find and report issues with Moin 1.9 in this regard. Something on my now-huge list of things to do is to make Moin authentication better, especially where there might be a choice of authentication methods. Unfortunately, most sites using OpenID seem have an awkward login process. Maybe it's just me (I don't use OpenID much) but I expect that without a lot more handholding of new users, OpenID actually turns more people away than any other registration/login process. The people who like OpenID are often the ultra-geeks who cannot imagine the worldview of a typical internet user, and when they design a website they are often clueless about what it feels like to start using OpenID for the first time or to remember your OpenID handle if the last time you used it was a month ago. Not that the native Moin login method is much better... Either way, Python's wikis have some of the most awkward auth systems I've come across. -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
Unfortunately, most sites using OpenID seem have an awkward login process. Maybe it's just me (I don't use OpenID much) but I expect that without a lot more handholding of new users, OpenID actually turns more people away than any other registration/login process. So how do you like the OpenID login of PyPI, which has a Google, MyOpenID and Launchpad icon, which users need to click on to create in account or login? The ultra geeks demanded and got a separate page where they can enter long URLs. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
Am 25.09.2010 23:43, schrieb Martin v. Löwis: For me a major annoyance is the empty page with two links on wiki.python.org While it allows to tell new people that there is also a Jython wiki, my vision that it should be instead be oriented on existing contributors immediately providing instruments to work with Python wiki. So if smb. need Jython wiki - it should be moved to wiki.jython.org That's funny, I've never seen that page before. Does it get linked to from somewhere? It's at http://wiki.python.org/, and FTR, it has annoyed me as well. So how would you propose to resolve this? Keep in mind that existing links need to continue to work. Redirect wiki.python.org to the Python wiki front page, and put the Jython wiki somewhere on its own (whether it's wiki.jython.org or not). The only people who will need a pointer are those who went directly to wiki.python.org/ and intended to go to the Jython wiki; a link might be added on the front page of the Python wiki. Georg -- Thus spake the Lord: Thou shalt indent with four spaces. No more, no less. Four shall be the number of spaces thou shalt indent, and the number of thy indenting shall be four. Eight shalt thou not indent, nor either indent thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to four. Tabs are right out. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
As we're now seeing, people don't feel that it's acceptable to publish the subscribers list, Michael To be fair, quite a few people said they thought it was fine / Michael a good thing. A couple (maybe 3?) said that as the list was Michael originally advertised with the member list hidden it would be Michael unfair to change. So based on responses, more people think it Michael *is* acceptable. I've not yet responded to this aspect of the thread. I see no reason not to make the membership list visible to the list members themselves. Beyond that, I don't think it serves any benefit, and of course, runs the risk of exposing email addresses to spam harvesters. OTOH, those of us who are visible enough on the web that we get to the point of helping maintain a very public website have probably already exposed our email addresses dozens or hundreds of times (or more) to spammers. Googling for s...@pobox.com (the quotes are required to constrain the search properly) yields about 22,000 hits. gu...@python.org yields about 38,000 hits. Paul's and Michael's addresses returned multiple thousands of hits. And so on. As I recall, one reason for the formation of pydotorg-www was to create a more visible list than pydotorg so the maintenance of the website didn't appear so cabalistic to the interested observer. Still, I see that most/all lists hosted on mail.python.org seem to restrict the list membership to the list admins, so leaving the status quo probably won't hurt anything. Skip ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
Redirect wiki.python.org to the Python wiki front page, and put the Jython wiki somewhere on its own (whether it's wiki.jython.org or not). But that can't work: then off-site links into either wiki break. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
Am 26.09.2010 00:16, schrieb Martin v. Löwis: Redirect wiki.python.org to the Python wiki front page, and put the Jython wiki somewhere on its own (whether it's wiki.jython.org or not). But that can't work: then off-site links into either wiki break. Why -- they can be redirected easily. Georg -- Thus spake the Lord: Thou shalt indent with four spaces. No more, no less. Four shall be the number of spaces thou shalt indent, and the number of thy indenting shall be four. Eight shalt thou not indent, nor either indent thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to four. Tabs are right out. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
Am 26.09.2010 00:48, schrieb Georg Brandl: Am 26.09.2010 00:16, schrieb Martin v. Löwis: Redirect wiki.python.org to the Python wiki front page, and put the Jython wiki somewhere on its own (whether it's wiki.jython.org or not). But that can't work: then off-site links into either wiki break. Why -- they can be redirected easily. Ok, so please be more specific: what exactly should the new structure look like? Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
Am 23.09.2010 22:25, schrieb anatoly techtonik: On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Barry Warsaw ba...@python.org wrote: I certainly agree with that. So, how can we solve those problems? Radomir has shell access now so perhaps we can ask him to make the Python wiki theme more visually appealing. What roadblocks do people encounter when they want to help garden or reorganize the wiki? First of all Wiki is outdated. Correct me, but python.org specific customizations are not modules, but patches that makes it hard to update the Wiki to latest version or add new customizations. That's why we have a Moin core developer on the team. ISTM that Moin 1.x is notoriously hard to extend -- once you go beyond plugins adding new wiki macros -- which is part of what the team wants to fix in 2.x. Second - ugly Creole syntax. I am for inter-cooperation between wikis, and I understand that for non-developer communities [] symbols imposing problems, but as an open source developer I am addicted to Trac and Google Code syntax and never had problems with those. This isn't Creole syntax, it's Moin wiki syntax. And face it, it's not going to change. It's also not so much different from Trac wiki syntax. Fourth. GPL license. I personally don't have interest to waste my time for the code I won't be able to use in some projects, unless the project is either exceptional (Mercurial) or interesting. To make python.org MoinMoin interesting - there should be an inviting entrypoint (see point three above) and the list of tasks to choose form. Something that is better than http://wiki.python.org/moin/SiteImprovements Yes, that needs to be updated indeed. Fifth. Credits and motivation for all python.org works. I still convinced that there should be one primary dedicated list and it should be public. All sensitive issues can be discussed with webmasters@ privately, but the primary list should be run by community. Not the volunteers who are better than others. If there will be a feeling that site is run by community, then you can expect contributions. Otherwise expect the community to think they're doing the stuff here, so they will fix it. I'm puzzled what you expect in addition to the pydotorg-www list. Georg -- Thus spake the Lord: Thou shalt indent with four spaces. No more, no less. Four shall be the number of spaces thou shalt indent, and the number of thy indenting shall be four. Eight shalt thou not indent, nor either indent thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to four. Tabs are right out. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On 24/09/2010 06:46, Martin v. Löwis wrote: Am 24.09.2010 00:39, schrieb Guido van Rossum: On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Martin v. Löwismar...@v.loewis.de wrote: With an admin team behind it, you can also make more use of ACLs to flag certain parts of the wiki as official by making them only editable by certain people (e.g. only devs, only the triage team, only the wiki admins). But keeping those user lists up to date is itself something that requires a strong wiki admin team. There actually is an admin team, and they actually do set ACLs. Who are they? I don't actually know entirely; at a minimum, Skip Montanaro. Wiki maintenance is discussed, along with other python.org maintenance topics, on the pydotorg-www mailing list: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www More wiki and website maintainers needed! All the best, Michael Foord IIUC, this is primarily for spam protection, though. So would they object against additions to the team? I don't think they would. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/fuzzyman%40voidspace.org.uk -- http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/ http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (”BOGUS AGREEMENTS”) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 8:31 PM, Michael Foord fuzzy...@voidspace.org.uk wrote: Wiki maintenance is discussed, along with other python.org maintenance topics, on the pydotorg-www mailing list: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www More wiki and website maintainers needed! We could probably advertise helping with pydotorg itself a bit more in the How can I help? sections of the docs and website. I did just notice there is actually a Help Maintain Website on the left of the main page which is a good start, but (for example) the general Python FAQ in the docs points people to http://python.org/dev/, which in turn has a Suggested Tasks link to http://python.org/dev/contributing/. That page could probably do with a section in the main text that links to the website maintenance info page. That page itself could also mention assisting in wiki maintenance as a way to demonstrate interest (similar to the way patches and triage assistance show interest in contributing to the official docs and source code). For the wiki itself, I would suggest a Help Maintain the Wiki link in the left navbar of each (with appropriately updated text, that could just link to the general website maintenance page). So, given that we don't actually *ask* anywhere for people to contribute to the wiki, I guess it isn't that surprising that it is underutilised. Something else the wiki can be *very* useful for is to provide information that is potentially useful to Python users, but that we don't want to be seen as unduly blessed by either python-dev or the PSF. Lists of libraries supporting particular tasks can fit into that category, since an entry on an open access wiki page is (justifiably) going to be given far less weight than a reference from the official documentation. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] Python wiki
On Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:53:55 -0400 Barry Warsaw ba...@python.org wrote: Of course, if the consensus is that wikis are just a waste of time and do more harm than good, then we should shut ours down. (I don't agree it is though.) I don't think they are a waste of time. However, as you and Dirkjan pointed out, a wiki needs some gardening to take care of its structure and its presentation. The present Python wiki isn't very inviting graphically, and its structure doesn't look very thought out. Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On Sep 23, 2010, at 05:32 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: I don't think they are a waste of time. However, as you and Dirkjan pointed out, a wiki needs some gardening to take care of its structure and its presentation. The present Python wiki isn't very inviting graphically, and its structure doesn't look very thought out. I certainly agree with that. So, how can we solve those problems? Radomir has shell access now so perhaps we can ask him to make the Python wiki theme more visually appealing. What roadblocks do people encounter when they want to help garden or reorganize the wiki? -Barry signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:57:19 -0400 Barry Warsaw ba...@python.org wrote: On Sep 23, 2010, at 05:32 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: I don't think they are a waste of time. However, as you and Dirkjan pointed out, a wiki needs some gardening to take care of its structure and its presentation. The present Python wiki isn't very inviting graphically, and its structure doesn't look very thought out. I certainly agree with that. So, how can we solve those problems? Radomir has shell access now so perhaps we can ask him to make the Python wiki theme more visually appealing. What roadblocks do people encounter when they want to help garden or reorganize the wiki? Given that few or none of us seem to (want to) actively contribute to the wiki, I'm afraid python-dev is not the place to ask. Perhaps a call should be issued on c.l.py asking interested people to subscribe to pydotorg (or any other list) and start there? By the way, I've just looked at the wiki: there are 2 or 3 edits per day. Compared to the size and vitality of the Python user community, this is a ridiculously low number. Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
Antoine The present Python wiki isn't very inviting graphically, and Antoine its structure doesn't look very thought out. I imagine it can be made to look more like the rest of python.org without a lot of trouble. As to the structure, like most wikis it quickly resembles a bag-o-pages after awhile. Thank goodness for Google. Skip ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
Antoine Given that few or none of us seem to (want to) actively Antoine contribute to the wiki, I'm afraid python-dev is not the place Antoine to ask. Perhaps a call should be issued on c.l.py ... It would be nice if you could actually send messages to the people who do actually update wiki content. Unfortunately, without donning my cape and blue tights, then digging into the users files on the wiki there's no real way to do that. Skip ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Barry Warsaw ba...@python.org wrote: I certainly agree with that. So, how can we solve those problems? Radomir has shell access now so perhaps we can ask him to make the Python wiki theme more visually appealing. What roadblocks do people encounter when they want to help garden or reorganize the wiki? First of all Wiki is outdated. Correct me, but python.org specific customizations are not modules, but patches that makes it hard to update the Wiki to latest version or add new customizations. Second - ugly Creole syntax. I am for inter-cooperation between wikis, and I understand that for non-developer communities [] symbols imposing problems, but as an open source developer I am addicted to Trac and Google Code syntax and never had problems with those. Third - there is not starting point to help with wiki. No instructions how to checkout wiki code, how to get python.org modification, how to get sample data and how to get started. This place should be easily editable by anyone (premoderated for disrespectful members), so anyone can share their experience. Take a look at Trac. Fourth. GPL license. I personally don't have interest to waste my time for the code I won't be able to use in some projects, unless the project is either exceptional (Mercurial) or interesting. To make python.org MoinMoin interesting - there should be an inviting entrypoint (see point three above) and the list of tasks to choose form. Something that is better than http://wiki.python.org/moin/SiteImprovements Fifth. Credits and motivation for all python.org works. I still convinced that there should be one primary dedicated list and it should be public. All sensitive issues can be discussed with webmasters@ privately, but the primary list should be run by community. Not the volunteers who are better than others. If there will be a feeling that site is run by community, then you can expect contributions. Otherwise expect the community to think they're doing the stuff here, so they will fix it. -- anatoly t. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 4:52 AM, s...@pobox.com wrote: Antoine Given that few or none of us seem to (want to) actively Antoine contribute to the wiki, I'm afraid python-dev is not the place Antoine to ask. Perhaps a call should be issued on c.l.py ... It would be nice if you could actually send messages to the people who do actually update wiki content. Unfortunately, without donning my cape and blue tights, then digging into the users files on the wiki there's no real way to do that. That's a good point actually... why *isn't* there a pydotorg-wiki-sig? (Aside from the obvious point of nobody ever asking for one). I must admit, that the various things I've thrown on there myself have been pretty much fire-and-forget. Without anyone that feels like they collectively own the wiki, the much needed pruning never happens. With an admin team behind it, you can also make more use of ACLs to flag certain parts of the wiki as official by making them only editable by certain people (e.g. only devs, only the triage team, only the wiki admins). But keeping those user lists up to date is itself something that requires a strong wiki admin team. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
With an admin team behind it, you can also make more use of ACLs to flag certain parts of the wiki as official by making them only editable by certain people (e.g. only devs, only the triage team, only the wiki admins). But keeping those user lists up to date is itself something that requires a strong wiki admin team. There actually is an admin team, and they actually do set ACLs. IIUC, this is primarily for spam protection, though. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de wrote: With an admin team behind it, you can also make more use of ACLs to flag certain parts of the wiki as official by making them only editable by certain people (e.g. only devs, only the triage team, only the wiki admins). But keeping those user lists up to date is itself something that requires a strong wiki admin team. There actually is an admin team, and they actually do set ACLs. Who are they? IIUC, this is primarily for spam protection, though. So would they object against additions to the team? -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
On Fri, 24 Sep 2010 01:57:19 am Barry Warsaw wrote: I certainly agree with that. So, how can we solve those problems? Radomir has shell access now so perhaps we can ask him to make the Python wiki theme more visually appealing. What roadblocks do people encounter when they want to help garden or reorganize the wiki? For me, the number one roadblock is unfamiliarity -- I always forget that there is a Python wiki. I think it would be helpful if the wiki could be integrated with the docs in some fashion, perhaps by having each page link to a sister page in the wiki. It seems to me that the wiki won't be useful until people regularly use it, and people won't regularly use it until it is useful. It will take a conscious effort by people (including myself) to break this vicious circle by improving articles and regularly linking to them. Number two, I just went to the wiki to see how I might get started. I randomly choose this page: http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/Download and looked for an edit button or something. Unlike Wikipedia, there is no obvious Edit button. Eventually I noticed in tiny type at the bottom of the page: Immutable page. Hmmm, that's not promising. Then I discovered a *tiny* icon that looks like a speech bubble that apparently means edit. Clicking it gives me a message: You are not allowed to edit this page. Not friendly, nor helpful. A better message might be something like This page is locked. You must log in to edit this page. or similar. How does one get an account? Can I edit anonymously? Once I found a page I could edit, it was relatively straightforward. So that's a plus :) -- Steven D'Aprano ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python wiki
Am 24.09.2010 00:39, schrieb Guido van Rossum: On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de wrote: With an admin team behind it, you can also make more use of ACLs to flag certain parts of the wiki as official by making them only editable by certain people (e.g. only devs, only the triage team, only the wiki admins). But keeping those user lists up to date is itself something that requires a strong wiki admin team. There actually is an admin team, and they actually do set ACLs. Who are they? I don't actually know entirely; at a minimum, Skip Montanaro. IIUC, this is primarily for spam protection, though. So would they object against additions to the team? I don't think they would. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
