Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-13 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
Wes Turner writes:
 > [Continuing to play devil's advocate for the sake of clarification]

I will answer briefly here, but for further discussion, I will go to
personal mail.  (I don't recommend that, I'm really at the limit of
things I ever knew well. ;-)

 > On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 2:40 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <
 > turnbull.stephen...@u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:
 > 
 > > The legal theory is that the name "Python" is reserved so that
 > > users can know that Python-Dev's strict (or not so, YMMV) QA
 > > policies have been applied
 > 
 > These are QA'd:

I should have put "QA" in scare quotes.  It's not about what actually
happens in Python, it's the legal theory that as a trademark of the
PSF it carries the PSF's "reputational capital", whatever that may
be.

 > There's really a "ship of theseus" argument: it is defacto standard

De jure in the U.S. (and most jurisdictions I know about) doesn't much
care about "de facto" if it gets to court.[1]

 > How extensive those patches are is likely irrelevant to a trademark
 > dispute (of which there is none here).

Ah, but there *is* a trademark dispute that is relevant here: a future
one.

For other practical considerations, Nick's explanation of distro (or
Red Hat or Fedora?) considerations was helpful to me (as I said, it's
been a decade or so since I looked closely at this stuff).

Steve

Footnotes: 
[1]  Japan is interesting: it rarely gets to court, so bureaucrats can
effectively sanction illegal activity if it's considered to be
socially beneficial.  A recent example I heard about is community
gardens, which violate some nitpicky agricultural laws, but help
preserve greenery and feed the impecunious elderly in large cities.
There are less savory examples, too. :-(
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-12 Thread Nick Coghlan 
On 13 December 2016 at 02:12, Chris Angelico  wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 12:18 AM, Nick Coghlan  wrote:
>> It absolutely *is* relevant, as is how diligent the redistributors are
>> in differentiating between the unmodified upstream project and the
>> patches we have applied post-release (rather than just posting the end
>> result without a clear audit trail). Distros don't do all that extra
>> work just for the fun of it - it's an essential part of keeping track
>> of who's ultimately responsible for which pieces in a way that's
>> transparent to recipients of the software. Ensuring we aren't taking
>> excessive liberties with the language definition is also one of the
>> reasons we sometimes seek explicit permission for deviations - it
>> documents that those particular changes still fit within the bounds of
>> what counts as "Python".
>
> For clarification: By "we" in the above paragraph, you mean Red Hat,
> not the PSF, right? You have two affiliations. :)

You're right, I should be clearer about my pronouns. Technically I'm
referring to the Fedora Python SIG here, as I don't have the authority
to speak on behalf of Red Hat itself. There may be visible
correlations between the redistribution practices of Fedora, RHEL, and
CentOS, though :)

Cheers,
Nick.

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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-12 Thread Chris Angelico 
On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 12:18 AM, Nick Coghlan  wrote:
> It absolutely *is* relevant, as is how diligent the redistributors are
> in differentiating between the unmodified upstream project and the
> patches we have applied post-release (rather than just posting the end
> result without a clear audit trail). Distros don't do all that extra
> work just for the fun of it - it's an essential part of keeping track
> of who's ultimately responsible for which pieces in a way that's
> transparent to recipients of the software. Ensuring we aren't taking
> excessive liberties with the language definition is also one of the
> reasons we sometimes seek explicit permission for deviations - it
> documents that those particular changes still fit within the bounds of
> what counts as "Python".

For clarification: By "we" in the above paragraph, you mean Red Hat,
not the PSF, right? You have two affiliations. :)

ChrisA
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-12 Thread Nick Coghlan 
On 12 December 2016 at 19:10, Wes Turner  wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 2:40 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull
>  wrote:
>> Exactly how lenient an open source project can be with naming of
>> forks, I don't know.  I would hope that courts would not look amiss at
>> the common practice of letting distros that patch Python or break out
>> the stdlib or docs into a separate package call their package
>> "python".  But you'd have to ask a real lawyer and maybe find a court
>> case on that.
>
> There's really a "ship of theseus" argument: it is defacto standard practice
> for downstream distributions to distribute modified copies of Python while
> retaining the name Python. How extensive those patches are is likely
> irrelevant to a trademark dispute (of which there is none here).

It absolutely *is* relevant, as is how diligent the redistributors are
in differentiating between the unmodified upstream project and the
patches we have applied post-release (rather than just posting the end
result without a clear audit trail). Distros don't do all that extra
work just for the fun of it - it's an essential part of keeping track
of who's ultimately responsible for which pieces in a way that's
transparent to recipients of the software. Ensuring we aren't taking
excessive liberties with the language definition is also one of the
reasons we sometimes seek explicit permission for deviations - it
documents that those particular changes still fit within the bounds of
what counts as "Python".

However, we've drifted well off-topic for python-dev now (the PSF's
management of the legal marks is handled by the Trademarks Comittee
and the PSF Board rather than python-dev), so if you'd like to learn
more about trademark law and how it applies to open source projects in
general, I'd suggest taking advantage of the extensive material
available online rather than posting further here (the history of the
Firefox/Iceweasel disagreement between Mozilla and Debian is a
particularly interesting case study).

Regards,
Nick.

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-12 Thread Burkhard Meier 
~ Just upgrade to Python 3.6 and forget about this non~sense! ~

On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 2:53 AM, Steven D'Aprano 
wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 03:10:09AM -0600, Wes Turner wrote:
> > [Continuing to play devil's advocate for the sake of clarification]
>
> Clarification of *what* exactly? You don't seem to be asking any
> questions, just making statements.
>
> If you have a concrete, specific question, please ask it. If its a
> general question, you can ask it too, but don't be surprised if the
> answer is "it depends on the specific circumstances".
>
>
> --
> Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-12 Thread Steven D'Aprano 
On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 03:10:09AM -0600, Wes Turner wrote:
> [Continuing to play devil's advocate for the sake of clarification]

Clarification of *what* exactly? You don't seem to be asking any 
questions, just making statements.

If you have a concrete, specific question, please ask it. If its a 
general question, you can ask it too, but don't be surprised if the 
answer is "it depends on the specific circumstances".


-- 
Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-12 Thread Wes Turner 
[Continuing to play devil's advocate for the sake of clarification]

On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 2:40 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull  wrote:

> Wes Turner writes:
>
>  > So forks with modules added or removed cannot be called Python?
>  > Forks without the blessing of the PSF cannot be called Python?
>  > That's really not open source.
>
> Of course it is.  The source is open and free.
>
> But that's not what is in play here.  The legal theory is that the
> name "Python" is reserved so that users can know that Python-Dev's
> strict (or not so, YMMV) QA policies have been applied


These are QA'd:

https://www.python.org/downloads/

Other [prefix] Python [suffix] distributions are not officially QA'd by the
core Python team.


> and promises
> (or lack thereof) of support are valid,


https://docs.python.org/3/license.html#terms-and-
conditions-for-accessing-or-otherwise-using-python

```
4. PSF is making Python 3.5.2 available to Licensee on an "AS IS" basis.
   PSF MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED.  BY WAY
OF
   EXAMPLE, BUT NOT LIMITATION, PSF MAKES NO AND DISCLAIMS ANY
REPRESENTATION OR
   WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR
THAT THE
   USE OF PYTHON 3.5.2 WILL NOT INFRINGE ANY THIRD PARTY RIGHTS.

5. PSF SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO LICENSEE OR ANY OTHER USERS OF PYTHON 3.5.2
   FOR ANY INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR LOSS AS A
RESULT OF
   MODIFYING, DISTRIBUTING, OR OTHERWISE USING PYTHON 3.5.2, OR ANY
DERIVATIVE
   THEREOF, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY THEREOF.
```

>
> and to avoid gratuitous claims
> against the PSF by people who take use of the trademark to mean that
> it's PSF-sponsored or at least PSF-sanctioned.


These are the PSF releases: https://www.python.org/downloads/

There are many redistributions with various patches applied.


>   That is a perfectly
> reasonable way for third parties to behave, since it's the PSF's
> responsibility to defend its trademark.
>
> Note that trademark is unlike patent and copyright, which are
> unconditional whether or not infringers have been punished before.
> OTOH, trademark must be defended, because when the reputational
> capital depreciates too much US courts will refuse to enforce
> trademark.  We say trademark protection is "use it or lose it".
>
> It's a moot point here because Guido and Van are satisfied with the
> response of the author so far.  But I fear that since Guido declared
> that no "Python 2.8" will ever exist, failure to object to that name
> would be all the evidence a court would need to decide that we don't
> care enough about the trademark, making it that much more difficult to
> enforce in the future.  (IANAL and it's been ~15 years since I've
> looked at law or cases on trademark, but I suppose it's still true.)
>
> Exactly how lenient an open source project can be with naming of
> forks, I don't know.  I would hope that courts would not look amiss at
> the common practice of letting distros that patch Python or break out
> the stdlib or docs into a separate package call their package
> "python".  But you'd have to ask a real lawyer and maybe find a court
> case on that.
>

There's really a "ship of theseus" argument: it is defacto standard
practice for downstream distributions to distribute modified copies of
Python while retaining the name Python. How extensive those patches are is
likely irrelevant to a trademark dispute (of which there is none here).

IIUC, when a developer forks (e.g. clicks "fork" w/
github.com/python/cpython), there is still no need to change the repository
name.


>
> Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-12 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
Wes Turner writes:

 > So forks with modules added or removed cannot be called Python? 
 > Forks without the blessing of the PSF cannot be called Python? 
 > That's really not open source.

Of course it is.  The source is open and free.

But that's not what is in play here.  The legal theory is that the
name "Python" is reserved so that users can know that Python-Dev's
strict (or not so, YMMV) QA policies have been applied and promises
(or lack thereof) of support are valid, and to avoid gratuitous claims
against the PSF by people who take use of the trademark to mean that
it's PSF-sponsored or at least PSF-sanctioned.  That is a perfectly
reasonable way for third parties to behave, since it's the PSF's
responsibility to defend its trademark.

Note that trademark is unlike patent and copyright, which are
unconditional whether or not infringers have been punished before.
OTOH, trademark must be defended, because when the reputational
capital depreciates too much US courts will refuse to enforce
trademark.  We say trademark protection is "use it or lose it".

It's a moot point here because Guido and Van are satisfied with the
response of the author so far.  But I fear that since Guido declared
that no "Python 2.8" will ever exist, failure to object to that name
would be all the evidence a court would need to decide that we don't
care enough about the trademark, making it that much more difficult to
enforce in the future.  (IANAL and it's been ~15 years since I've
looked at law or cases on trademark, but I suppose it's still true.)

Exactly how lenient an open source project can be with naming of
forks, I don't know.  I would hope that courts would not look amiss at
the common practice of letting distros that patch Python or break out
the stdlib or docs into a separate package call their package
"python".  But you'd have to ask a real lawyer and maybe find a court
case on that.

Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-11 Thread Nick Coghlan 
On 11 December 2016 at 13:23, Wes Turner  wrote:
> On Saturday, December 10, 2016, Terry Reedy  wrote:
>> On 12/10/2016 5:28 PM, Wes Turner wrote:
>>> So forks with modules added or removed cannot be called Python?
>>
>> Distributions that make parts of the stdlib optional are not forks.  The
>> PSF Windows installer makes tcl/tk, tkinter, IDLE, and turtle? modules
>> optional.
>>
>> Distributions that package additional modules with unmodified python x.y
>> are also, to me, not forks.  But they are always given other names for the
>> combined package.  ActiveState Python, Enthought Python, Anaconda (Python).
>> Separate names for separate distribution allow people to search for
>> particular distributions and discuss questions like "Which distribution is
>> best for purpose A?"
>>
>> I am sure that ActiveState Software Inc. would not be happy if you
>> distributed Python + selected modules and called it 'ActiveState Python'
>> ;-),  Some for other distributions.
>
> So there needs to be a prefix or a suffix?
>
>   [prefix] Python
>   Python [suffix]

There needs to be an avoidance of confusion, such that folks are aware
of what's being published directly under the PSF's authority (by way
of python-dev's selected release managers), and what's being modified
by other people.

Linux distros probably diverge the furthest out of anyone distributing
binaries that are still recognised as a third party build of CPython,
such that the Linux system Python releases are more properly called
" Python" rather than just Python. However, distro packaging
formats are also generally designed to clearly distinguish between the
unmodified upstream source code and any distro-specific patches, so
the likelihood of confusion is low (in a legal sense).

As Terry notes, other redistributors are similar (just with fewer
patches in most cases) - providing pre-built, potentially patched,
binaries is standard practice, but the end result is branded as
something *other* than an unqualified "Python" release.

Alternative *implementations* that embed the word mark in their name,
like MicroPython and IronPython, can diverge even further, and will
often mix and match the specifics of which versions they support (e.g.
if their base version is 3.X, and a neat feature comes out in 3.X+2,
they're free to add that if they want to do so, even if there are
still other features from 3.X+1 that they're still working on).

The simplest option from a legal perspective is for folks to use a
clearly distinct name (e.g. PyPy, Jython, Cython, Pyjion, Numba, VOC,
Batavia, Mython), as then the question of appropriate use of the
"Python" word mark doesn't even come up - it only gets used in a
nominative sense (i.e. "this is a Python implementation" or "this is a
Python superset"), which is always OK.

In this particular case, there just happened to be an obvious name for
the project (courtesy of PEP 404) that was nevertheless problematic on
the "potential for confusion" trademark front. Fortunately, there have
been a few interesting alternative name suggestions on the GitHub
issue, so once Naftali picks one that the PSF agrees is fine, the
issue will be resolved.

Regards,
Nick.

-- 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread Wes Turner 
...

- https://twitter.com/VanL/status/807697111886286852
- From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13147972 :

```
(Replying to the top-ranked comment so that as many people as possible see
it)

While I wish Naftali well in his efforts - I have a private Python-derived
language myself! - this is not "Python 2.8." For trademark purposes,
"Python" is only what is released or endorsed by the PSF.

We have already reached out to Naftali and asked him to change the name of
his project and update this blog post accordingly.

Obviously, though, this is someone who cares a lot about Python, so let's
be sure not to rain down on him with a lot of scorn; I admire that he was
willing to sit down and 'scratch his own itch.'

Source: I am the General Counsel of the PSF.
```

On Saturday, December 10, 2016, Wes Turner  wrote:

>
>
> On Saturday, December 10, 2016, Wes Turner  > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, December 10, 2016, Terry Reedy  wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/10/2016 5:28 PM, Wes Turner wrote:
>>>

 So forks with modules added or removed cannot be called Python?

>>>
>>> Distributions that make parts of the stdlib optional are not forks.  The
>>> PSF Windows installer makes tcl/tk, tkinter, IDLE, and turtle? modules
>>> optional.
>>>
>>> Distributions that package additional modules with unmodified python x.y
>>> are also, to me, not forks.  But they are always given other names for the
>>> combined package.  ActiveState Python, Enthought Python, Anaconda
>>> (Python).  Separate names for separate distribution allow people to search
>>> for particular distributions and discuss questions like "Which distribution
>>> is best for purpose A?"
>>>
>>> I am sure that ActiveState Software Inc. would not be happy if you
>>> distributed Python + selected modules and called it 'ActiveState Python'
>>> ;-),  Some for other distributions.
>>
>>
>> So there needs to be a prefix or a suffix?
>>
>>   [prefix] Python
>>   Python [suffix]
>>
>
> https://github.com/ContinuumIO/anaconda-recipes/blob/master/python-2.7/
> version.patch
>
> What is the objective here?
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Terry Jan Reedy
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Python-Dev mailing list
>>> Python-Dev@python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
>>> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailma
>>> n/options/python-dev/wes.turner%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread Wes Turner 
On Saturday, December 10, 2016, Wes Turner  wrote:

>
>
> On Saturday, December 10, 2016, Terry Reedy  > wrote:
>
>> On 12/10/2016 5:28 PM, Wes Turner wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> So forks with modules added or removed cannot be called Python?
>>>
>>
>> Distributions that make parts of the stdlib optional are not forks.  The
>> PSF Windows installer makes tcl/tk, tkinter, IDLE, and turtle? modules
>> optional.
>>
>> Distributions that package additional modules with unmodified python x.y
>> are also, to me, not forks.  But they are always given other names for the
>> combined package.  ActiveState Python, Enthought Python, Anaconda
>> (Python).  Separate names for separate distribution allow people to search
>> for particular distributions and discuss questions like "Which distribution
>> is best for purpose A?"
>>
>> I am sure that ActiveState Software Inc. would not be happy if you
>> distributed Python + selected modules and called it 'ActiveState Python'
>> ;-),  Some for other distributions.
>
>
> So there needs to be a prefix or a suffix?
>
>   [prefix] Python
>   Python [suffix]
>

https://github.com/ContinuumIO/anaconda-recipes/blob/master/python-2.7/version.patch

What is the objective here?


>
>>
>> --
>> Terry Jan Reedy
>>
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>>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread Wes Turner 
On Saturday, December 10, 2016, Terry Reedy  wrote:

> On 12/10/2016 5:28 PM, Wes Turner wrote:
>
>>
>> So forks with modules added or removed cannot be called Python?
>>
>
> Distributions that make parts of the stdlib optional are not forks.  The
> PSF Windows installer makes tcl/tk, tkinter, IDLE, and turtle? modules
> optional.
>
> Distributions that package additional modules with unmodified python x.y
> are also, to me, not forks.  But they are always given other names for the
> combined package.  ActiveState Python, Enthought Python, Anaconda
> (Python).  Separate names for separate distribution allow people to search
> for particular distributions and discuss questions like "Which distribution
> is best for purpose A?"
>
> I am sure that ActiveState Software Inc. would not be happy if you
> distributed Python + selected modules and called it 'ActiveState Python'
> ;-),  Some for other distributions.


So there needs to be a prefix or a suffix?

  [prefix] Python
  Python [suffix]


>
> --
> Terry Jan Reedy
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread Terry Reedy 

On 12/10/2016 10:11 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:

On 12/10/2016 5:28 PM, Wes Turner wrote:


So forks with modules added or removed cannot be called Python?


Distributions that make parts of the stdlib optional are not forks.  The
PSF Windows installer makes tcl/tk, tkinter, IDLE, and turtle? modules
optional.

Distributions that package additional modules with unmodified python x.y
are also, to me, not forks.  But they are always given other names for
the combined package.  ActiveState Python, Enthought Python, Anaconda
(Python).  Separate names for separate distribution allow people to
search for particular distributions and discuss questions like "Which
distribution is best for purpose A?"

I am sure that ActiveState Software Inc. would not be happy if you
distributed Python + selected modules and called it 'ActiveState Python'
;-),  Some for other distributions.


I just found the small gray print: "© 2016 ActiveState Software Inc. All 
rights reserved. ActiveState®, Komodo®, ActiveState Perl Dev Kit®, 
ActiveState Tcl Dev Kit®, ActivePerl®, ActivePython®, and ActiveTcl® are 
registered trademarks of ActiveState."


--
Terry Jan Reedy


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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread Terry Reedy 

On 12/10/2016 5:28 PM, Wes Turner wrote:


So forks with modules added or removed cannot be called Python?


Distributions that make parts of the stdlib optional are not forks.  The 
PSF Windows installer makes tcl/tk, tkinter, IDLE, and turtle? modules 
optional.


Distributions that package additional modules with unmodified python x.y 
are also, to me, not forks.  But they are always given other names for 
the combined package.  ActiveState Python, Enthought Python, Anaconda 
(Python).  Separate names for separate distribution allow people to 
search for particular distributions and discuss questions like "Which 
distribution is best for purpose A?"


I am sure that ActiveState Software Inc. would not be happy if you 
distributed Python + selected modules and called it 'ActiveState Python' 
;-),  Some for other distributions.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread Wes Turner 
So forks with modules added or removed cannot be called Python? Forks
without the blessing of the PSF cannot be called Python? That's really not
open source.

- https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/python/python25/diff27
- "PEP: Distributing a Subset of the Standard Library" https://
groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/python-ideas/DP5OeJu94eI
  - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0534/

https://www.python.org/psf/trademarks/

I think trying to maintain a fork without support from the community is a
bad idea for a number of reasons:

- How quickly are vulnerability fixes to be backported? (if ever)
- Duplication of effort
- Fragmentation

But as an academic exercise, what a useful way to review both Python 2 and
3.

But it's very common for folks to apply patches and still call the package
and the binary 'python' (with the same version number):

- https://github.com/ContinuumIO/anaconda-recipes/tree/master/python-2.7
*.patch
- https://apps.fedoraproject.org/packages/python-devel/sources/
- http://packages.ubuntu.com/source/xenial/python-defaults
- Distribution XYZ redistribution [Python 2.7.12]
- Unmerged development forks

With these license and trademark policies, does unblessed fork need to:

- change their project name to not include the word "python"
- change the binary name so that simple PATH changes don't work
- clutter their diffs with noise
- use an arbitrary version number

Where is that stated?

Are all unmerged development forks / branches in violation of said policy?

The fork in immediate question is not backwards-compatible with Python 2.

It's clear that the PSF position is that there will never be an official
Python 2.8; and that development time and effort are better spent porting
things to the backwards-incompatible Python 3.4/3.6.



On Saturday, December 10, 2016, David Mertz  wrote:

>
>
> On Dec 10, 2016 10:42 AM, "Wes Turner"  > wrote:
>
> and this is on purpose, since Python is BSD software which
>> anyone can use, modify, fork, etc.
>>
>
> So, otherwise everyone who forks for any reason is in violation of the
> trademark policy?
>
>
> The trademark issue has nothing to do with the code copyright or forking.
> PyPy, Brython, IronPython, Jython are all distinct code bases that
> implement (mostly) the same language semantics. Probably all of those use
> some code from CPython, but even if some other implementation used zero
> common code it wouldn't matter.
>
> None of those projects are allowed to call their next release "Python 2.8"
> either, regardless of precise semantics implemented. I could call some
> project Foothon 2.8 if I wanted, because it wouldn't invite confusion about
> official status for the PDF.
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread Guido van Rossum 
FWIW the author is amenable to renaming, so that's the end for me. See the
issue referenced earlier in the thread.

--Guido (mobile)

On Dec 10, 2016 1:24 PM, "David Mertz"  wrote:

>
>
> On Dec 10, 2016 10:42 AM, "Wes Turner"  wrote:
>
> and this is on purpose, since Python is BSD software which
>> anyone can use, modify, fork, etc.
>>
>
> So, otherwise everyone who forks for any reason is in violation of the
> trademark policy?
>
>
> The trademark issue has nothing to do with the code copyright or forking.
> PyPy, Brython, IronPython, Jython are all distinct code bases that
> implement (mostly) the same language semantics. Probably all of those use
> some code from CPython, but even if some other implementation used zero
> common code it wouldn't matter.
>
> None of those projects are allowed to call their next release "Python 2.8"
> either, regardless of precise semantics implemented. I could call some
> project Foothon 2.8 if I wanted, because it wouldn't invite confusion about
> official status for the PDF.
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread David Mertz 
On Dec 10, 2016 10:42 AM, "Wes Turner"  wrote:

and this is on purpose, since Python is BSD software which
> anyone can use, modify, fork, etc.
>

So, otherwise everyone who forks for any reason is in violation of the
trademark policy?


The trademark issue has nothing to do with the code copyright or forking.
PyPy, Brython, IronPython, Jython are all distinct code bases that
implement (mostly) the same language semantics. Probably all of those use
some code from CPython, but even if some other implementation used zero
common code it wouldn't matter.

None of those projects are allowed to call their next release "Python 2.8"
either, regardless of precise semantics implemented. I could call some
project Foothon 2.8 if I wanted, because it wouldn't invite confusion about
official status for the PDF.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread David Mertz 
I am more worried about the confusion than Guido is. I agree that this will
remain a toy project. But as someone who trains scientist to use Python and
consults with large companies with large Python 2 codebases, I think the
very existence of a thing called "Python 2.8" will serve as a pretext for
managers to drag their feet further on migration plans... Ultimately
hurting their own business, but that becomes harder to explain.


On Dec 10, 2016 8:07 AM, "Guido van Rossum"  wrote:

While I think the name is misleading and in violation of PSF policy and/or
license, I am not too worried about this. I expect it will be tough to port
libraries from Python 3 reliably because it is not true Python 3 (e.g.
str/bytes). So then it's just a toy. Who cares about having 'async def' if
there's no backport of asyncio?

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread Wes Turner 
On Saturday, December 10, 2016, Wes Turner  wrote:

> s/python/pythone28000/g. There; now I can read the diff's.
>
> On Saturday, December 10, 2016, Wes Turner  > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, December 10, 2016, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>>
>>> On 10.12.2016 10:05, David Mertz wrote:
>>> > I'm forwarding this to the PSF Trademarks committee. If there is a
>>> > violation, it's a misuse of trademark, not copyright on the code which
>>> has
>>> > the Python license stack.
>>> >
>>> > I'm on that committee and agree this is improper use. Let's see what
>>> other
>>> > members think.
>>>
>>> Our trademark policy for the word mark Python does allow
>>> for such use and without asking for permissions:
>>>
>>> https://www.python.org/psf/trademarks/
>>> """
>>> ...
>>> As such, stating accurately that software is written in the Python
>>> programming language, that it is compatible with the Python programming
>>> language, or that it contains the Python programming language, is always
>>> allowed. In those cases, you may use the word "Python" or the unaltered
>>> logos to indicate this, without our prior approval. This is true both
>>> for non-commercial and commercial uses.
>>>
>>> This clause overrides other clauses of this policy.
>>> ...
>>> """
>>>
>>> and this is on purpose, since Python is BSD software which
>>> anyone can use, modify, fork, etc.
>>>
>>>
>> So, otherwise everyone who forks for any reason is in violation of the
>> trademark policy?
>>
>>
>>> The fork also contains a list of differences compared to
>>> Python 2.7 as shipped by the PSF, so the license is fulfilled
>>> as well:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8
>>
>>
>> This could be easier (and linked-to):
>> https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8/compare/master...
>> python/cpython:2.7
>>
>> https://github.com/python/cpython/compare/2.7...naftaliharri
>> s/python2.8:master
>>
>> git rebase -i?
>>
>>
>>> All that said, I still believe we should contact the author
>>> and ask for a name change to make it clear to our users that
>>> the PSF is not endorsing this fork, nor does it provide
>>> support for it:
>>
>>
>> From README.md: "Python 2.8 is licensed under the Python Software
>> License, (see the LICENSE file for details). This is not an official Python
>> release; see PEP 404 ."
>>
>> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0404/
>>
>
Helpfully, what could this also say?

- Not supported
- Not approved
- Links to cpython hg and git
-


>
>>
>>>
>>> https://github.com/naftaliharris
>>> https://www.naftaliharris.com/contact/
>>>
>>> Regardless of the name, it'll be interesting to see whether
>>> there's demand for such a fork. Without a website, binaries
>>> to download, documentation, etc. it's still in the very early
>>> stages.
>>
>>
>>
>> What could've been! (Intimidating an incompatible fork would be somewhat
>> hypocritical at this point).
>>
>> Do you really think it appropriate to demand a name change because you
>> disagree with the fork's backward compatibility?
>>
>> What a useful list of new features (and potential backports), IMHO
>>
>> https://pypi.python.org/pypi/backports
>>
>> https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8/compare/asyncio
>>
>>
>>> --
>>> Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>> eGenix.com
>>>
>>> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Dec 10 2016)
>>> >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> >>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> >>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> 
>>>
>>> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>>>
>>>eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>>> D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>>Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>>>http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>>>   http://www.malemburg.com/
>>>
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>>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread Wes Turner 
s/python/pythone28000/g. There; now I can read the diff's.

On Saturday, December 10, 2016, Wes Turner  wrote:

>
>
> On Saturday, December 10, 2016, M.-A. Lemburg  > wrote:
>
>> On 10.12.2016 10:05, David Mertz wrote:
>> > I'm forwarding this to the PSF Trademarks committee. If there is a
>> > violation, it's a misuse of trademark, not copyright on the code which
>> has
>> > the Python license stack.
>> >
>> > I'm on that committee and agree this is improper use. Let's see what
>> other
>> > members think.
>>
>> Our trademark policy for the word mark Python does allow
>> for such use and without asking for permissions:
>>
>> https://www.python.org/psf/trademarks/
>> """
>> ...
>> As such, stating accurately that software is written in the Python
>> programming language, that it is compatible with the Python programming
>> language, or that it contains the Python programming language, is always
>> allowed. In those cases, you may use the word "Python" or the unaltered
>> logos to indicate this, without our prior approval. This is true both
>> for non-commercial and commercial uses.
>>
>> This clause overrides other clauses of this policy.
>> ...
>> """
>>
>> and this is on purpose, since Python is BSD software which
>> anyone can use, modify, fork, etc.
>>
>>
> So, otherwise everyone who forks for any reason is in violation of the
> trademark policy?
>
>
>> The fork also contains a list of differences compared to
>> Python 2.7 as shipped by the PSF, so the license is fulfilled
>> as well:
>>
>> https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8
>
>
> This could be easier (and linked-to):
> https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8/compare/master...python/
> cpython:2.7
>
> https://github.com/python/cpython/compare/2.7...
> naftaliharris/python2.8:master
>
> git rebase -i?
>
>
>> All that said, I still believe we should contact the author
>> and ask for a name change to make it clear to our users that
>> the PSF is not endorsing this fork, nor does it provide
>> support for it:
>
>
> From README.md: "Python 2.8 is licensed under the Python Software License,
> (see the LICENSE file for details). This is not an official Python release;
> see PEP 404 ."
>
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0404/
>
>
>>
>> https://github.com/naftaliharris
>> https://www.naftaliharris.com/contact/
>>
>> Regardless of the name, it'll be interesting to see whether
>> there's demand for such a fork. Without a website, binaries
>> to download, documentation, etc. it's still in the very early
>> stages.
>
>
>
> What could've been! (Intimidating an incompatible fork would be somewhat
> hypocritical at this point).
>
> Do you really think it appropriate to demand a name change because you
> disagree with the fork's backward compatibility?
>
> What a useful list of new features (and potential backports), IMHO
>
> https://pypi.python.org/pypi/backports
>
> https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8/compare/asyncio
>
>
>> --
>> Marc-Andre Lemburg
>> eGenix.com
>>
>> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Dec 10 2016)
>> >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>> >>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>> >>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
>> 
>>
>> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>>
>>eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>> D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>>Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>>http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>>   http://www.malemburg.com/
>>
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>>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread Wes Turner 
On Saturday, December 10, 2016, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:

> On 10.12.2016 10:05, David Mertz wrote:
> > I'm forwarding this to the PSF Trademarks committee. If there is a
> > violation, it's a misuse of trademark, not copyright on the code which
> has
> > the Python license stack.
> >
> > I'm on that committee and agree this is improper use. Let's see what
> other
> > members think.
>
> Our trademark policy for the word mark Python does allow
> for such use and without asking for permissions:
>
> https://www.python.org/psf/trademarks/
> """
> ...
> As such, stating accurately that software is written in the Python
> programming language, that it is compatible with the Python programming
> language, or that it contains the Python programming language, is always
> allowed. In those cases, you may use the word "Python" or the unaltered
> logos to indicate this, without our prior approval. This is true both
> for non-commercial and commercial uses.
>
> This clause overrides other clauses of this policy.
> ...
> """
>
> and this is on purpose, since Python is BSD software which
> anyone can use, modify, fork, etc.
>
>
So, otherwise everyone who forks for any reason is in violation of the
trademark policy?


> The fork also contains a list of differences compared to
> Python 2.7 as shipped by the PSF, so the license is fulfilled
> as well:
>
> https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8


This could be easier (and linked-to):
https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8/compare/master...python/cpython:2.7

https://github.com/python/cpython/compare/2.7...naftaliharris/python2.8:master

git rebase -i?


> All that said, I still believe we should contact the author
> and ask for a name change to make it clear to our users that
> the PSF is not endorsing this fork, nor does it provide
> support for it:


>From README.md: "Python 2.8 is licensed under the Python Software License,
(see the LICENSE file for details). This is not an official Python release;
see PEP 404 ."

https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0404/


>
> https://github.com/naftaliharris
> https://www.naftaliharris.com/contact/
>
> Regardless of the name, it'll be interesting to see whether
> there's demand for such a fork. Without a website, binaries
> to download, documentation, etc. it's still in the very early
> stages.



What could've been! (Intimidating an incompatible fork would be somewhat
hypocritical at this point).

Do you really think it appropriate to demand a name change because you
disagree with the fork's backward compatibility?

What a useful list of new features (and potential backports), IMHO

https://pypi.python.org/pypi/backports

https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8/compare/asyncio


> --
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> eGenix.com
>
> Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Dec 10 2016)
> >>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
> >>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
> >>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/
> 
>
> ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::
>
>eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
> D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
>   http://www.malemburg.com/
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread Philipp A. 
Paul Moore  schrieb am Sa., 10. Dez. 2016 um 11:38 Uhr:

> Someone has raised an issue against the project at
> https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8/issues/47 We should
> probably see what the project owner's response to that is.
>

That would be me, hi.

I really hope this is resolved in a constructive way, without resorting to
lawyers sending cease-and-desist letters. So yeah, please let’s wait!

Also interesting what cropped up as first comment. People seem to be really
emotional about this. But no matter how the transition experience could
have been improved: 8 years are a long time to transition your stuff if you
accept the fact that a transition is necessary. Sorry for bringing this up,
that’s not the right place to discuss this.

Best, Philipp
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread Guido van Rossum 
While I think the name is misleading and in violation of PSF policy and/or
license, I am not too worried about this. I expect it will be tough to port
libraries from Python 3 reliably because it is not true Python 3 (e.g.
str/bytes). So then it's just a toy. Who cares about having 'async def' if
there's no backport of asyncio?

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread Gustavo Carneiro 
On 10 December 2016 at 13:49, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
[...]

> Regardless of the name, it'll be interesting to see whether
> there's demand for such a fork. Without a website, binaries
> to download, documentation, etc. it's still in the very early
> stages.
>

IMHO, whether or not there is demand for this release should be
irrelevant.  Caving in to Python 2.8 demand is trading off some short term
gains (adding some Python 3 features to code bases locked into Python 2),
in detriment of a big long-term risk, which is that the Python language
permanently forks into two versions: Python 2 and Python 3.

Right now we have a solid expectation that eventually Python 2 is going to
be legacy and most code bases will convert to Python 3.  If we somehow
endorse Python 2.8, many developers will be tempted to just stick with
Python 2 forever.  This would be very very bad for the future of the
language as whole.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread M.-A. Lemburg 
On 10.12.2016 10:05, David Mertz wrote:
> I'm forwarding this to the PSF Trademarks committee. If there is a
> violation, it's a misuse of trademark, not copyright on the code which has
> the Python license stack.
> 
> I'm on that committee and agree this is improper use. Let's see what other
> members think.

Our trademark policy for the word mark Python does allow
for such use and without asking for permissions:

https://www.python.org/psf/trademarks/
"""
...
As such, stating accurately that software is written in the Python
programming language, that it is compatible with the Python programming
language, or that it contains the Python programming language, is always
allowed. In those cases, you may use the word "Python" or the unaltered
logos to indicate this, without our prior approval. This is true both
for non-commercial and commercial uses.

This clause overrides other clauses of this policy.
...
"""

and this is on purpose, since Python is BSD software which
anyone can use, modify, fork, etc.

The fork also contains a list of differences compared to
Python 2.7 as shipped by the PSF, so the license is fulfilled
as well:

https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8

All that said, I still believe we should contact the author
and ask for a name change to make it clear to our users that
the PSF is not endorsing this fork, nor does it provide
support for it:

https://github.com/naftaliharris
https://www.naftaliharris.com/contact/

Regardless of the name, it'll be interesting to see whether
there's demand for such a fork. Without a website, binaries
to download, documentation, etc. it's still in the very early
stages.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Dec 10 2016)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...   http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...   http://zope.egenix.com/


::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
   Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
   http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
  http://www.malemburg.com/

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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread Nick Coghlan 
On 10 December 2016 at 18:18, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
> On Dec 10, 2016, at 07:09 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
>>I seem to recall that when we discussed the future of Python 2.x, and the
>>decision that 2.7 would be the final version and there would be no 2.8, we
>>reached a consensus that if anyone did backport Python 3 features to a Python
>>2 fork, they should not call it Python 2.8 as that could mislead people into
>>thinking it was officially supported.
>>
>>I think the project should be renamed to make it clear that its a fork,
>>like Stackless.
>
> Yes, exactly right.  It's not sanctioned by the PSF and should not be called
> "Python" anything.

NorwegianBlue would be thematically appropriate ;)

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread Xavier Combelle 

> I believe that this 'derived work' is both a trademark and a license
> violation.  Clause 7 of the PSF License V. 2, as displayed by '>>>
> license()', explicitly denies permission to make derivative works that
> violate PSF Trademarks.  Perhaps Github and Infoworld should be
> informed also, but our lawyer can decide.
>
> "This License Agreement does not grant permission to use PSF
> trademarks ..."
>
> Perhaps that document should mention somewhere at the top that
> "Python" is a PSF Trademark for computer languages.
I am not a lawyer, but to my understanding, violating the trademark is
not a violation of the license. The fact that the license mention it
doesn't grant permission to use PSF trademarks doesn't mean that by
violating the trademark you also violate the license.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread Paul Moore 
On 10 December 2016 at 10:36, Paul Moore  wrote:
> Someone has raised an issue against the project at
> https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8/issues/47 We should
> probably see what the project owner's response to that is.

By the way, looking at the project history, it seems to have been
round for some time (there's no obvious way that I can see in the
github UI to see when a project was forked from its parent, but I can
see branches by the project owner from a year ago).

Paul
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread Paul Moore 
On 10 December 2016 at 10:15, Terry Reedy  wrote:
> On 12/10/2016 4:05 AM, David Mertz wrote:
>>
>> I'm forwarding this to the PSF Trademarks committee. If there is a
>> violation, it's a misuse of trademark, not copyright on the code which
>> has the Python license stack.
>
>
> I believe that this 'derived work' is both a trademark and a license
> violation.  Clause 7 of the PSF License V. 2, as displayed by '>>>
> license()', explicitly denies permission to make derivative works that
> violate PSF Trademarks.  Perhaps Github and Infoworld should be informed
> also, but our lawyer can decide.
>
> "This License Agreement does not grant permission to use PSF
> trademarks ..."
>
> Perhaps that document should mention somewhere at the top that "Python" is a
> PSF Trademark for computer languages.

Someone has raised an issue against the project at
https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8/issues/47 We should
probably see what the project owner's response to that is.

Paul
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread Terry Reedy 

On 12/10/2016 4:05 AM, David Mertz wrote:

I'm forwarding this to the PSF Trademarks committee. If there is a
violation, it's a misuse of trademark, not copyright on the code which
has the Python license stack.


I believe that this 'derived work' is both a trademark and a license 
violation.  Clause 7 of the PSF License V. 2, as displayed by '>>> 
license()', explicitly denies permission to make derivative works that 
violate PSF Trademarks.  Perhaps Github and Infoworld should be informed 
also, but our lawyer can decide.


"This License Agreement does not grant permission to use PSF
trademarks ..."

Perhaps that document should mention somewhere at the top that "Python" 
is a PSF Trademark for computer languages.



I'm on that committee and agree this is improper use. Let's see what
other members think.

On Dec 10, 2016 12:19 AM, "Barry Warsaw" > wrote:

On Dec 10, 2016, at 07:09 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

>I seem to recall that when we discussed the future of Python 2.x,
and the
>decision that 2.7 would be the final version and there would be no
2.8, we
>reached a consensus that if anyone did backport Python 3 features
to a Python
>2 fork, they should not call it Python 2.8 as that could mislead
people into
>thinking it was officially supported.
>
>I think the project should be renamed to make it clear that its a fork,
>like Stackless.

Yes, exactly right.  It's not sanctioned by the PSF and should not
be called
"Python" anything.

-Barry
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--
Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread David Mertz 
I'm forwarding this to the PSF Trademarks committee. If there is a
violation, it's a misuse of trademark, not copyright on the code which has
the Python license stack.

I'm on that committee and agree this is improper use. Let's see what other
members think.

On Dec 10, 2016 12:19 AM, "Barry Warsaw"  wrote:

On Dec 10, 2016, at 07:09 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

>I seem to recall that when we discussed the future of Python 2.x, and the
>decision that 2.7 would be the final version and there would be no 2.8, we
>reached a consensus that if anyone did backport Python 3 features to a
Python
>2 fork, they should not call it Python 2.8 as that could mislead people
into
>thinking it was officially supported.
>
>I think the project should be renamed to make it clear that its a fork,
>like Stackless.

Yes, exactly right.  It's not sanctioned by the PSF and should not be called
"Python" anything.

-Barry
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread Barry Warsaw 
On Dec 10, 2016, at 07:09 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

>I seem to recall that when we discussed the future of Python 2.x, and the
>decision that 2.7 would be the final version and there would be no 2.8, we
>reached a consensus that if anyone did backport Python 3 features to a Python
>2 fork, they should not call it Python 2.8 as that could mislead people into
>thinking it was officially supported.
>
>I think the project should be renamed to make it clear that its a fork, 
>like Stackless.

Yes, exactly right.  It's not sanctioned by the PSF and should not be called
"Python" anything.

-Barry
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread Steven D'Aprano 
On Fri, Dec 09, 2016 at 09:56:44PM -0800, Larry Hastings wrote:
> 
> "Python 2.8 is a backwards-compatible Python interpreter with new 
> features from Python 3.x. It was produced by forking Python 2.7.12 and 
> backporting
[...]
> https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8

I seem to recall that when we discussed the future of Python 2.x, and 
the decision that 2.7 would be the final version and there would be no 
2.8, we reached a consensus that if anyone did backport Python 3 
features to a Python 2 fork, they should not call it Python 2.8 as that 
could mislead people into thinking it was officially supported.

I think the project should be renamed to make it clear that its a fork, 
like Stackless.



-- 
Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-10 Thread Serhiy Storchaka 

On 10.12.16 07:56, Larry Hastings wrote:

"Python 2.8 is a backwards-compatible Python interpreter with new
features from Python 3.x. It was produced by forking Python 2.7.12 and
backporting some of the new syntax, builtins, and libraries from Python
3. Python code and C-extensions targeting Python 2.7 or below are
expected to run unmodified on Python 2.8 and produce the same output.
But with Python 2.8, that code can now use some of the new features from
Python 3.x."


I think this project should be renamed.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-09 Thread Nick Coghlan 
On 10 December 2016 at 15:56, Larry Hastings  wrote:
>
> "Python 2.8 is a backwards-compatible Python interpreter with new features
> from Python 3.x. It was produced by forking Python 2.7.12 and backporting
> some of the new syntax, builtins, and libraries from Python 3. Python code
> and C-extensions targeting Python 2.7 or below are expected to run
> unmodified on Python 2.8 and produce the same output. But with Python 2.8,
> that code can now use some of the new features from Python 3.x."
>
> Backported features:
>
> Function annotations
> Keyword-only arguments
> async / await
> no-argument super()
> new metaclass syntax
> yield from
> typing module
> inspect.signature()
> matrix multiplication operator
> fine-grained reworking of OSError
> underscores in numeric literals
> concurrent.futures
> types.MappingProxyType
> selectors module
>
> https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8

Aye, I saw that recently in an Infoworld article. One area where this
could be particularly interesting is for folks embedding Python in
larger commercial applications (ArcGIS, Maya, etc) that already build
their own Python from source with the same C/C++ compiler that they
use to build the rest of the application (so arbitrary Python C
extensions aren't supported).

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
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[Python-Dev] Someons's put a "Python 2.8" on GitHub

2016-12-09 Thread Larry Hastings 



"Python 2.8 is a backwards-compatible Python interpreter with new 
features from Python 3.x. It was produced by forking Python 2.7.12 and 
backporting some of the new syntax, builtins, and libraries from Python 
3. Python code and C-extensions targeting Python 2.7 or below are 
expected to run unmodified on Python 2.8 and produce the same output. 
But with Python 2.8, that code can now use some of the new features from 
Python 3.x."


Backported features:

 * Function annotations
 * Keyword-only arguments
 * async / await
 * no-argument super()
 * new metaclass syntax
 * yield from
 * typing module
 * inspect.signature()
 * matrix multiplication operator
 * fine-grained reworking of OSError
 * underscores in numeric literals
 * concurrent.futures
 * types.MappingProxyType
 * selectors module


https://github.com/naftaliharris/python2.8

Huh,


//arry/

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