[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Barry Warsaw]

That sounds great, thanks Mariatta.

-Barry

> On Jun 23, 2021, at 12:36, Mariatta  wrote:
> 
> My understanding is that Ezio is/will be working on updating PEP 588.
> Last I heard from Ezio is that he would be co-author of PEP 588 and he would 
> be updating it/rewrite it to better match the current migration plan.
> 
> I will check with Ezio and the gh-migration group on the status.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 10:33 AM Barry Warsaw  wrote:
> 
> 
> Mariatta is the author of PEP 588 and I’m the delegate.  Given how old that 
> PEP is and the fact that Ezio is managing the project elsewhere, I think 
> rejection is appropriate.  However if we do that I think the PEP should at 
> least be updated with references to Ezio’s project, with some verbiage added 
> as to why these changes are being made.
> 
> What do you think, Mariatta?
> 
> -Barry
> 



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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Mariatta]

My understanding is that Ezio is/will be working on updating PEP 588.
Last I heard from Ezio is that he would be co-author of PEP 588 and he
would be updating it/rewrite it to better match the current migration plan.

I will check with Ezio and the gh-migration group on the status.

Thanks.

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 10:33 AM Barry Warsaw  wrote:

>
>
> Mariatta is the author of PEP 588 and I’m the delegate.  Given how old
> that PEP is and the fact that Ezio is managing the project elsewhere, I
> think rejection is appropriate.  However if we do that I think the PEP
> should at least be updated with references to Ezio’s project, with some
> verbiage added as to why these changes are being made.
>
> What do you think, Mariatta?
>
> -Barry
>
>
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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jun 23, 2021, at 03:21, Paul Moore  wrote:

> PEP 588 has not been accepted, so it's not necessarily relevant to the
> actual migration plan here, but I do think it's reasonable to ask for
> some clarification. Either PEP 588 should be rejectected, noting that
> the actual implementation plan is being maintained differently, or it
> should be updated as an ongoing document as the planning process goes
> ahead. I suspect the update on this particular open question might
> well be "the problem was considered, and ultimately it was concluded
> that requiring a github account was not a showstopper". That may not
> please some people (I don't personally care) but that's fine - not
> everything has to be unanimous, as long as the SC approves.

Mariatta is the author of PEP 588 and I’m the delegate.  Given how old that PEP 
is and the fact that Ezio is managing the project elsewhere, I think rejection 
is appropriate.  However if we do that I think the PEP should at least be 
updated with references to Ezio’s project, with some verbiage added as to why 
these changes are being made.

What do you think, Mariatta?

-Barry



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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jun 22, 2021, at 15:52, Brett Cannon  wrote:
> 
> One thing I will remind people is I personally have led the work to move this 
> project from:
>   • SourceForge to our own infrastructure
>   • Mercurial to git
>   • Our own infrastructure to GitHub for code management
> So if GitHub were to do something we don't like we can always move platforms 
> again.

While I personally don’t think it will ever be necessary, one out would be a 
GitLab instance we stand up ourselves.  It doesn’t look to be too hard to 
migrate from GitHub to GitLab:

https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/import/github.html

Of course, that would still be infrastructure we’d have to run (unless we used 
gitlab.com, but then some people might still object), and that migration would 
also have to deal with Roundup issues if we don’t complete that migration.

-Barry



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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Antoine Pitrou]

On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 19:49:12 -0400
Ned Deily  wrote:
> 
> I think this points out a problem with our current bug system and one that it 
> would be good to try to resolve in migrating to a new system: that is, the 
> ambiguity of the "version" metadata in an issue. Today, that list of versions 
> is used in at least three different ways: 1. to document in what Python 
> versions the issue is present; 2. to document in what Python versions the 
> issue should be fixed, 3. to document in what versions the issue was fixed. 
> In many, probably most, cases, the "version" field of a particular issue is 
> used in both ways. When the issue is opened, the version is often set to the 
> versions affected. Then at various stages in its lifecycle, the issue's 
> version field will generally be changed to (possibly) reflect the candidate 
> versions for potential fixes (based on current
>   policy) and later (possibly) to the versions for which a fix was actually 
> merged. The various sets  of versions are useful information for different 
> purposes. It would be good to try to find a way 
>  to retain both, i.e. something like "affected versions", "targeted 
> versions", and "fixed versions". In any case, resolving the current ambiguity 
> would be good and could also save triage and housekeeping work.

+1. "Affected versions" and "fixed versions" at least seem necessary.
This is also what exists on e.g. the Apache JIRA tracker.

Regards

Antoine.


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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Paul Moore]

On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 at 01:21, Brett Cannon  wrote:
> Regardless, there are no plans to halt what was decided when we accepted PEP 
> 581. Most of the concerns which have been brought up in this thread were 
> already expressed back then (the account merge one I didn't remember, hence 
> why I replied).

I don't have a strong opinion regarding the use of github accounts,
but just to note, this thread was about the open issue in PEP 588, not
about PEP 581 -
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0588/#a-github-account-should-not-be-a-requirement.

PEP 588 has not been accepted, so it's not necessarily relevant to the
actual migration plan here, but I do think it's reasonable to ask for
some clarification. Either PEP 588 should be rejectected, noting that
the actual implementation plan is being maintained differently, or it
should be updated as an ongoing document as the planning process goes
ahead. I suspect the update on this particular open question might
well be "the problem was considered, and ultimately it was concluded
that requiring a github account was not a showstopper". That may not
please some people (I don't personally care) but that's fine - not
everything has to be unanimous, as long as the SC approves.

Paul
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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Brett Cannon]

On Tue., Jun. 22, 2021, 14:50 Glenn Linderman, 
wrote:

> On 6/22/2021 12:52 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 4:09 PM Glenn Linderman 
> wrote:
>
>> On 6/21/2021 2:31 PM, Christopher Barker wrote:
>>
>>
>> By contrast, requiring a github account for reporting bugs also makes
>>> python an unwelcoming place for non-developers in general. Github is a
>>> developers' social network, "mere" users are much less likely to want to
>>> be part of it. Many will just silently abandon their bug report.
>>
>>
>> But you don’t need to be “part of it” in any meaningful way. One only
>> needs to create an account, which could be quite anonymous, and even
>> temporary.
>>
>> And is no harder, and probably easier, than creating an account on a
>> Python-specific site.
>>
>> Also: cPython is a large, complex, and mature project. I don't think many
>> non-developers can even identify a true bug, much less write a helpful big
>> report. There are many other ways to be involved in and contribute to the
>> Python community that don't require a gitHub (or any) account.
>>
>> I understand the issue here — I feel that way about businesses that use
>> Facebook for their website. But in that case, I can’t even read it without
>> a Facebook account. I don’t mind needing an account to contribute to a
>> conversation.
>>
>> And while GitHub  has become the dominant player in Open Source
>> development— it has not (yet?) reached out to control much else.
>>
>> -CHB
>>
>>
>> With all due respect to Microsoft, who has contributed significantly to
>> Python development, and continues to do, some people don't care for some of
>> Microsoft's policy and actions, and Microsoft owns GitHub, so your last
>> paragraph is somewhat naive, at best.
>>
>> So what is the difference between a GitHub account, and Microsoft account?
>>
>
> They are entirely different and separate; there's no relation there at all.
>
>
> Good, but given the Skype experience, it is questionable how long they
> will stay that way.
>

You can choose to view that as a one-off or indicative of a pattern. I'm
choosing the former (you can use the LinkedIn acquisition as support for my
view).


> One thing I will remind people is I personally have led the work to move
> this project from:
>
>1. SourceForge to our own infrastructure
>2. Mercurial to git
>3. Our own infrastructure to GitHub for code management
>
> So if GitHub were to do something we don't like we can always move
> platforms again.
>
>
> Indeed, but platform churn slows contributions, too.
>

Sure, but I don't think anyone is about to argue we should have stayed on
SF. Nor are there plans to switch off of GitHub.

Regardless, there are no plans to halt what was decided when we accepted
PEP 581. Most of the concerns which have been brought up in this thread
were already expressed back then (the account merge one I didn't remember,
hence why I replied).

>
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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Ned Deily]

On Jun 22, 2021, at 18:35, Irit Katriel via Python-Dev  
wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 11:22 PM Terry Reedy  wrote:
>> With 2.x gone and a backport flow, essentially all issues are for main, 
>> so leave version tags off the issue (and eliminate the need to update 
>> them!).
> For enhancement requests I agree we probably don't need to keep updating the 
> version (though it might be useful to know which version the user was looking 
> at when coming up with the suggestion).
> 
> But I think for a bug report it's useful to know the most recent version on 
> which the bug was reproduced.
> A large part of triage work is to check whether a bug report is still 
> relevant. If you see "version 3.5" then it makes sense to check on a current 
> version and either update the issue or close it.  

I think this points out a problem with our current bug system and one that it 
would be good to try to resolve in migrating to a new system: that is, the 
ambiguity of the "version" metadata in an issue. Today, that list of versions 
is used in at least three different ways: 1. to document in what Python 
versions the issue is present; 2. to document in what Python versions the issue 
should be fixed, 3. to document in what versions the issue was fixed. In many, 
probably most, cases, the "version" field of a particular issue is used in both 
ways. When the issue is opened, the version is often set to the versions 
affected. Then at various stages in its lifecycle, the issue's version field 
will generally be changed to (possibly) reflect the candidate versions for 
potential fixes (based on current policy) and later (possibly) to the versions 
for which a fix was actually merged. The various sets  of versions are useful 
information for different purposes. It would be good to try to find a way 
 to retain both, i.e. something like "affected versions", "targeted versions", 
and "fixed versions". In any case, resolving the current ambiguity would be 
good and could also save triage and housekeeping work.

--
  Ned Deily
  n...@python.org -- []

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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Irit Katriel via Python-Dev]

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 11:22 PM Terry Reedy  wrote:

>
> With 2.x gone and a backport flow, essentially all issues are for main,
> so leave version tags off the issue (and eliminate the need to update
> them!).


For enhancement requests I agree we probably don't need to keep updating
the version (though it might be useful to know which version the user was
looking at when coming up with the suggestion).

But I think for a bug report it's useful to know the most recent version on
which the bug was reproduced.
A large part of triage work is to check whether a bug report is still
relevant. If you see "version 3.5" then it makes sense to check on a
current version and either update the issue or close it.
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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Terry Reedy]

On 6/22/2021 3:52 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:

One thing I will remind people is I personally have led the work to move 
this project from:


 1. SourceForge to our own infrastructure
 2. Mercurial to git
 3. Our own infrastructure to GitHub for code management


At this point, I (once a skeptic) agree that the migration is an overall 
improvement, with CI being the roughest.


As for issue migration: github PRs are much 'richer' in info than 
Rietveld reviews, and there is now duplication of information with bpo 
issues.  (Where synchonization is not automated, this can be a nuisance.)


This means to me that the github issue metadata can be simplified. 
After making the migration easier, this will mean less bad metadata to 
be corrected by triagers.


With 2.x gone and a backport flow, essentially all issues are for main, 
so leave version tags off the issue (and eliminate the need to update 
them!).  [3.x] in PR titles and backport labels are enough.  Backport 
labels imply 'behavior' versus 'enhancement.


Stage info is also on the PR.

--
Terry Jan Reedy

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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Glenn Linderman]

On 6/22/2021 12:52 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:



On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 4:09 PM Glenn Linderman > wrote:


On 6/21/2021 2:31 PM, Christopher Barker wrote:


By contrast, requiring a github account for reporting bugs
also makes
python an unwelcoming place for non-developers in general.
Github is a
developers' social network, "mere" users are much less likely
to want to
be part of it. Many will just silently abandon their bug report.


But you don’t need to be “part of it” in any meaningful way. One
only needs to create an account, which could be quite anonymous,
and even temporary.

And is no harder, and probably easier, than creating an account
on a Python-specific site.

Also: cPython is a large, complex, and mature project. I don't
think many non-developers can even identify a true bug, much less
write a helpful big report. There are many other ways to be
involved in and contribute to the Python community that don't
require a gitHub (or any) account.

I understand the issue here — I feel that way about businesses
that use Facebook for their website. But in that case, I can’t
even read it without a Facebook account. I don’t mind needing an
account to contribute to a conversation.

And while GitHub  has become the dominant player in Open Source
development— it has not (yet?) reached out to control much else.

-CHB


With all due respect to Microsoft, who has contributed
significantly to Python development, and continues to do, some
people don't care for some of Microsoft's policy and actions, and
Microsoft owns GitHub, so your last paragraph is somewhat naive,
at best.

So what is the difference between a GitHub account, and Microsoft
account?


They are entirely different and separate; there's no relation there at 
all.


Good, but given the Skype experience, it is questionable how long they 
will stay that way.


One thing I will remind people is I personally have led the work to 
move this project from:


 1. SourceForge to our own infrastructure
 2. Mercurial to git
 3. Our own infrastructure to GitHub for code management

So if GitHub were to do something we don't like we can always move 
platforms again.


Indeed, but platform churn slows contributions, too.
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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Brett Cannon]

On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 4:09 PM Glenn Linderman 
wrote:

> On 6/21/2021 2:31 PM, Christopher Barker wrote:
>
>
> By contrast, requiring a github account for reporting bugs also makes
>> python an unwelcoming place for non-developers in general. Github is a
>> developers' social network, "mere" users are much less likely to want to
>> be part of it. Many will just silently abandon their bug report.
>
>
> But you don’t need to be “part of it” in any meaningful way. One only
> needs to create an account, which could be quite anonymous, and even
> temporary.
>
> And is no harder, and probably easier, than creating an account on a
> Python-specific site.
>
> Also: cPython is a large, complex, and mature project. I don't think many
> non-developers can even identify a true bug, much less write a helpful big
> report. There are many other ways to be involved in and contribute to the
> Python community that don't require a gitHub (or any) account.
>
> I understand the issue here — I feel that way about businesses that use
> Facebook for their website. But in that case, I can’t even read it without
> a Facebook account. I don’t mind needing an account to contribute to a
> conversation.
>
> And while GitHub  has become the dominant player in Open Source
> development— it has not (yet?) reached out to control much else.
>
> -CHB
>
>
> With all due respect to Microsoft, who has contributed significantly to
> Python development, and continues to do, some people don't care for some of
> Microsoft's policy and actions, and Microsoft owns GitHub, so your last
> paragraph is somewhat naive, at best.
>
> So what is the difference between a GitHub account, and Microsoft account?
>

They are entirely different and separate; there's no relation there at all.

One thing I will remind people is I personally have led the work to move
this project from:

   1. SourceForge to our own infrastructure
   2. Mercurial to git
   3. Our own infrastructure to GitHub for code management

So if GitHub were to do something we don't like we can always move
platforms again.
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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[David Mertz]

This is perhaps a different issue, but perhaps not. PSF grants are also
subject to absurd and convoluted (and difficult to interpret) "export
control" rules. Also rules subject to change at any moment at the whims of
the latest US government grandstanding.

USA incorporation definitely has drawbacks, as well as advantages.

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021, 7:46 AM Sebastian Rittau  wrote:

> Am 22.06.21 um 10:00 schrieb Tiziano Zito:
> > I think it is important to notice that GitHub actively blocks user
> > registration and activity from countries that are sanctioned by the US
> > government. At least in 2019 GitHub was blocking users from IPs
> > located in Cuba, North Corea, Syria, Crimea, Iran, etc (see for
> > example [1]). They block, of course, users of any nationality, if they
> > happen to be traveling or living in those countries.
> >
> > I could not find any clear official statement from GitHub, but I think
> > this is something to consider nonetheless, especially now that the
> > Python community is making great efforts to become more welcoming and
> > diverse. The fact of excluding a significant part of the potential
> > contributors based on a random list by a random government over which
> > the Python community as a whole has no influence whatsoever seems a
> > move in the wrong direction.
>
> I was overall in favor of moving Python issues over to GitHub, for
> convenience, easier access, and a more usable interface. But I think the
> issue above is a showstopper. This problem of course already exists for
> pull requests, but discriminating against users based on their place of
> residence is absolutely unacceptable to me. In fact, it is directly in
> violation to the PSF's mission statement that says in part: "... to
> support and facilitate the growth of a diverse and international
> community of Python programmers." This issue hasn't been addresses in
> PEP 581, so I believe it wasn't considered when accepting the PEP. But
> it's serious enough that I would like to ask the steering council to
> reconsider their decision to accept PEP 581.
>
>   - Sebastian
>
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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Terry Reedy]

On 6/22/2021 4:40 AM, Baptiste Carvello wrote:


Le 21/06/2021 à 23:31, Christopher Barker a écrit :

Also: cPython is a large, complex, and mature project. I don't think
many non-developers can even identify a true bug, much less write a
helpful big report. [...]



There is a genuine question here: bluntly said, are bug reports still
welcome? 


The above is one person's viewpoint.  Since he is not a CPython core 
developer, I am not sure what he means by 'developer'.  Anyone who 
programs in Python 'developes' the programs they write.


It is true that students and beginners tend to make less useful reports. 
 But yes, bug reports are still welcome.



In the tradition of the Free Software movement, reporting bugs
is considered an act of good citizenship. If the scarcity of developer
time makes it no longer be the case for cPython, it'd rather be broadly
communicated to users.


What we need is for people to be less shy about helping with *other* 
people's reports.


--
Terry Jan Reedy


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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Terry Reedy]

On 6/22/2021 4:00 AM, Tiziano Zito wrote:

Hi,

On Mon 21 Jun, 13:48 +0200, Victor Stinner  wrote:

The requirement for a GitHub account was well known when PEP 581 was
accepted. The PEP was approved. It's now time to move on!


I think it is important to notice that GitHub actively blocks user 
registration and activity from countries that are sanctioned by the US 
government. At least in 2019 GitHub was blocking users from IPs located 
in Cuba, North Corea, Syria, Crimea, Iran, etc (see for example [1]). 
They block, of course, users of any nationality, if they happen to be 
traveling or living in those countries.



[1] https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/29/github-ban-sanctioned-countries/


It says that this applied to private repositories and paid organization 
repositories but not public, open source repositories.  I don't know if 
the forks of python needed to submit PRs are affected, but I belive 
these are both free and public.


https://docs.github.com/en/github/site-policy/github-and-trade-controls

Says that Github has an explicit license to serve Iran and most services 
are available in Cuba.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Baptiste Carvello]

Hi,

Le 21/06/2021 à 23:31, Christopher Barker a écrit :
> 
>   >  [...] Github is a
>   >  developers' social network, "mere" users are much less likely to want to
>   >  be part of it. [...]
> 
> 
> But you don’t need to be “part of it” in any meaningful way. One only
> needs to create an account, which could be quite anonymous, and even
> temporary.

I don't believe you can actually use temporary accounts. Github only
allows one account per physical person, and if I delete my account, then
later open a new one from the same IP and/or with a related e-mail
address, I would expect them to either blocklist me, or resurrect the
old account and copy the data to the new one. If anyone really tried,
please correct me.

> [...]
> Also: cPython is a large, complex, and mature project. I don't think
> many non-developers can even identify a true bug, much less write a
> helpful big report. [...]

There is a genuine question here: bluntly said, are bug reports still
welcome? In the tradition of the Free Software movement, reporting bugs
is considered an act of good citizenship. If the scarcity of developer
time makes it no longer be the case for cPython, it'd rather be broadly
communicated to users.

> [...] I don’t mind needing an account to
> contribute to a conversation.

I do, if a single company becomes the gatekeeper of most conversations
in a whole field of endeavor. Alas, I have to admit being in the
minority, so let this part of the discussion rest.

Cheers,
Baptiste
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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Sebastian Rittau]

(For some weird reason, I didn't get this mail via the list, only the 
private copy, so I might break threading by replying via my private copy.)


Am 22.06.21 um 14:01 schrieb Nathaniel Smith:


As much as we might wish otherwise, the PSF is also a US entity and
has to comply with US laws. GitHub's official policy at

https://docs.github.com/en/github/site-policy/github-and-trade-controls

gives the impression that they're reading the law as narrowly as
possible, and allowing access to every person that they legally can.
In particular, that policy page claims that there are no restrictions
on users from Cuba or Iran, and that users from Syria and Crimea are
allowed to participate in OSS projects, just not give GitHub money.
(They do disallow use by North Koreans and "Specially Designated
Nationals".)

It is even possible for the PSF to do better without breaking the law?
I'm not an expert in this area at all, so happy to be educated if
so...

-n

I'm not much interested in theory. Are people currently blocked from 
participating in Python issues due to their country of residence? Will 
people be blocked after the move to GitHub? If the answer to the second 
question is "yes", the move would violate one of the core principles of 
the PSF. If the answer to the first question is "yes", we need to 
consider transferring the bug tracker to an organization in a country 
whose laws better align with the goals of the PSF.


 - Sebastian

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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Antoine Pitrou]

On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 05:01:17 -0700
Nathaniel Smith  wrote:
> 
> As much as we might wish otherwise, the PSF is also a US entity and
> has to comply with US laws. GitHub's official policy at
> 
>https://docs.github.com/en/github/site-policy/github-and-trade-controls
> 
> gives the impression that they're reading the law as narrowly as
> possible, and allowing access to every person that they legally can.
> In particular, that policy page claims that there are no restrictions
> on users from Cuba or Iran, and that users from Syria and Crimea are
> allowed to participate in OSS projects, just not give GitHub money.

This would be worth checking if possible.

If individuals of any country (mostly? except North Korea?) are able to
participate as volunteers, then it may be fine, otherwise it is very
worrying.
But the question is also whether Github might change its policy in the
future.

> It is even possible for the PSF to do better without breaking the law?

Who knows, the PSF might be breaking the law already (or not). The
question is whether authorities would be interested in going after a
smallish community of individuals (compared to the Github user base,
python-dev is negligible).

Also, the python-dev community may always contemplate a move under a
different umbrella if necessary. Github won't change its umbrella to
just to make things easier for us.

Regards

Antoine.


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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Nathaniel Smith]

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 4:42 AM Sebastian Rittau  wrote:
>
> Am 22.06.21 um 10:00 schrieb Tiziano Zito:
> > I think it is important to notice that GitHub actively blocks user
> > registration and activity from countries that are sanctioned by the US
> > government. At least in 2019 GitHub was blocking users from IPs
> > located in Cuba, North Corea, Syria, Crimea, Iran, etc (see for
> > example [1]). They block, of course, users of any nationality, if they
> > happen to be traveling or living in those countries.
> >
> > I could not find any clear official statement from GitHub, but I think
> > this is something to consider nonetheless, especially now that the
> > Python community is making great efforts to become more welcoming and
> > diverse. The fact of excluding a significant part of the potential
> > contributors based on a random list by a random government over which
> > the Python community as a whole has no influence whatsoever seems a
> > move in the wrong direction.
>
> I was overall in favor of moving Python issues over to GitHub, for
> convenience, easier access, and a more usable interface. But I think the
> issue above is a showstopper. This problem of course already exists for
> pull requests, but discriminating against users based on their place of
> residence is absolutely unacceptable to me. In fact, it is directly in
> violation to the PSF's mission statement that says in part: "... to
> support and facilitate the growth of a diverse and international
> community of Python programmers." This issue hasn't been addresses in
> PEP 581, so I believe it wasn't considered when accepting the PEP. But
> it's serious enough that I would like to ask the steering council to
> reconsider their decision to accept PEP 581.

As much as we might wish otherwise, the PSF is also a US entity and
has to comply with US laws. GitHub's official policy at

   https://docs.github.com/en/github/site-policy/github-and-trade-controls

gives the impression that they're reading the law as narrowly as
possible, and allowing access to every person that they legally can.
In particular, that policy page claims that there are no restrictions
on users from Cuba or Iran, and that users from Syria and Crimea are
allowed to participate in OSS projects, just not give GitHub money.
(They do disallow use by North Koreans and "Specially Designated
Nationals".)

It is even possible for the PSF to do better without breaking the law?
I'm not an expert in this area at all, so happy to be educated if
so...

-n

-- 
Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Sebastian Rittau]

Am 22.06.21 um 10:00 schrieb Tiziano Zito:
I think it is important to notice that GitHub actively blocks user 
registration and activity from countries that are sanctioned by the US 
government. At least in 2019 GitHub was blocking users from IPs 
located in Cuba, North Corea, Syria, Crimea, Iran, etc (see for 
example [1]). They block, of course, users of any nationality, if they 
happen to be traveling or living in those countries.


I could not find any clear official statement from GitHub, but I think 
this is something to consider nonetheless, especially now that the 
Python community is making great efforts to become more welcoming and 
diverse. The fact of excluding a significant part of the potential 
contributors based on a random list by a random government over which 
the Python community as a whole has no influence whatsoever seems a 
move in the wrong direction. 


I was overall in favor of moving Python issues over to GitHub, for 
convenience, easier access, and a more usable interface. But I think the 
issue above is a showstopper. This problem of course already exists for 
pull requests, but discriminating against users based on their place of 
residence is absolutely unacceptable to me. In fact, it is directly in 
violation to the PSF's mission statement that says in part: "... to 
support and facilitate the growth of a diverse and international 
community of Python programmers." This issue hasn't been addresses in 
PEP 581, so I believe it wasn't considered when accepting the PEP. But 
it's serious enough that I would like to ask the steering council to 
reconsider their decision to accept PEP 581.


 - Sebastian

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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Tiziano Zito]

Hi,

On Mon 21 Jun, 13:48 +0200, Victor Stinner  wrote:

The requirement for a GitHub account was well known when PEP 581 was
accepted. The PEP was approved. It's now time to move on!


I think it is important to notice that GitHub actively blocks user registration 
and activity from countries that are sanctioned by the US government. At least 
in 2019 GitHub was blocking users from IPs located in Cuba, North Corea, Syria, 
Crimea, Iran, etc (see for example [1]). They block, of course, users of any 
nationality, if they happen to be traveling or living in those countries.

I could not find any clear official statement from GitHub, but I think this is 
something to consider nonetheless, especially now that the Python community is 
making great efforts to become more welcoming and diverse. The fact of 
excluding a significant part of the potential contributors based on a random 
list by a random government over which the Python community as a whole has no 
influence whatsoever seems a move in the wrong direction.

My 2c,
Tiziano

[1] https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/29/github-ban-sanctioned-countries/

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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Glenn Linderman]

On 6/21/2021 2:31 PM, Christopher Barker wrote:


By contrast, requiring a github account for reporting bugs also makes
python an unwelcoming place for non-developers in general. Github is a
developers' social network, "mere" users are much less likely to
want to
be part of it. Many will just silently abandon their bug report.


But you don’t need to be “part of it” in any meaningful way. One only 
needs to create an account, which could be quite anonymous, and even 
temporary.


And is no harder, and probably easier, than creating an account on a 
Python-specific site.


Also: cPython is a large, complex, and mature project. I don't think 
many non-developers can even identify a true bug, much less write a 
helpful big report. There are many other ways to be involved in and 
contribute to the Python community that don't require a gitHub (or 
any) account.


I understand the issue here — I feel that way about businesses that 
use Facebook for their website. But in that case, I can’t even read it 
without a Facebook account. I don’t mind needing an account to 
contribute to a conversation.


And while GitHub  has become the dominant player in Open Source 
development— it has not (yet?) reached out to control much else.


-CHB


With all due respect to Microsoft, who has contributed significantly to 
Python development, and continues to do, some people don't care for some 
of Microsoft's policy and actions, and Microsoft owns GitHub, so your 
last paragraph is somewhat naive, at best.


So what is the difference between a GitHub account, and Microsoft 
account?  Skype used to have its own accounts... then they were 
converted to be Microsoft accounts...


Glenn
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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Christopher Barker]

> By contrast, requiring a github account for reporting bugs also makes
> python an unwelcoming place for non-developers in general. Github is a
> developers' social network, "mere" users are much less likely to want to
> be part of it. Many will just silently abandon their bug report.


But you don’t need to be “part of it” in any meaningful way. One only needs
to create an account, which could be quite anonymous, and even temporary.

And is no harder, and probably easier, than creating an account on a
Python-specific site.

Also: cPython is a large, complex, and mature project. I don't think many
non-developers can even identify a true bug, much less write a helpful big
report. There are many other ways to be involved in and contribute to the
Python community that don't require a gitHub (or any) account.

I understand the issue here — I feel that way about businesses that use
Facebook for their website. But in that case, I can’t even read it without
a Facebook account. I don’t mind needing an account to contribute to a
conversation.

And while GitHub  has become the dominant player in Open Source
development— it has not (yet?) reached out to control much else.

-CHB




> Cheers,
> Baptiste
>
> >
> > Victor
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 11:46 AM Baptiste Carvello
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Le 21/06/2021 à 04:20, Ezio Melotti a écrit :
> >>> This effort is being tracked at
> >>> : this board reflects
> >>> the current status of the project.  The PEPs (including PEP 588 --
> >>> GitHub Issues Migration Plan) haven't been updated yet and might
> >>> contain outdated information, so please refer to the psf/gh-migration
> >>> repo for the latest updates.
> >>
> >> since 2019, I've been waiting for proposed solutions to PEP 588's first
> >> open issue ("A GitHub account should not be a requirement"). Now would
> >> be the time to think about it, but I see no such reflection mentioned in
> >> the repo.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Baptiste
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> >
> >
> >
>
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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Lele Gaifax]

Baptiste Carvello  writes:

> By contrast, requiring a github account for reporting bugs also makes
> python an unwelcoming place for non-developers in general. Github is a
> developers' social network, "mere" users are much less likely to want to
> be part of it. Many will just silently abandon their bug report.

On Gitlab there is a "create-issue-by-email" feature, but a quick search
didn't reveal an equivalent [builtin] way for Github.

However, I found a few addons that implement that, for example
https://fire.fundersclub.com/.

Maybe that could be an acceptable compromise?

ciao, lele.
-- 
nickname: Lele Gaifax | Quando vivrò di quello che ho pensato ieri
real: Emanuele Gaifas | comincerò ad aver paura di chi mi copia.
l...@metapensiero.it  | -- Fortunato Depero, 1929.

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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Baptiste Carvello]

Hi,

Le 21/06/2021 à 13:48, Victor Stinner a écrit :
> Hi,
> 
> As a bug triager, it's very frustrating when I ask for more
> information about a bug, and I get no reply. Usually, such bug is
> closed as "out of date" (lack enough information to be debugged).

There seems to be an untold assumption that non-github-users are more
likely to not reply to their own bugs. Not sure why, I may lack context.

> The requirement for a GitHub account was well known when PEP 581 was
> accepted. The PEP was approved. It's now time to move on!

PEP 588 has been saying the exact opposite for 2 years (maybe they did
not really mean it, but that's what's written).

> [...]

> It's all about trade-offs. Don't under estimate the cost of operating
> our own bug tracker. System administration is not free.

Note, however, that requiring a github account for reporting bugs is a
whole different trade-off than requiring it for development. The second
makes python an unwelcoming project for privacy-conscious people, but I
understand that such is the price to pay for more efficient freeware
tools. And it's an already made choice anyway.

By contrast, requiring a github account for reporting bugs also makes
python an unwelcoming place for non-developers in general. Github is a
developers' social network, "mere" users are much less likely to want to
be part of it. Many will just silently abandon their bug report.

Cheers,
Baptiste

> 
> Victor
> 
> On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 11:46 AM Baptiste Carvello
>  wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Le 21/06/2021 à 04:20, Ezio Melotti a écrit :
>>> This effort is being tracked at
>>> : this board reflects
>>> the current status of the project.  The PEPs (including PEP 588 --
>>> GitHub Issues Migration Plan) haven't been updated yet and might
>>> contain outdated information, so please refer to the psf/gh-migration
>>> repo for the latest updates.
>>
>> since 2019, I've been waiting for proposed solutions to PEP 588's first
>> open issue ("A GitHub account should not be a requirement"). Now would
>> be the time to think about it, but I see no such reflection mentioned in
>> the repo.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Baptiste
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> 
> 
> 

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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Victor Stinner]

Hi,

As a bug triager, it's very frustrating when I ask for more
information about a bug, and I get no reply. Usually, such bug is
closed as "out of date" (lack enough information to be debugged).

The requirement for a GitHub account was well known when PEP 581 was
accepted. The PEP was approved. It's now time to move on!

The creation of bugs.python.org account and bugs.python.org
authentication is often broken. It was common that OpenID
authentication was broken for 1 month or longer. Moreover,
bugs.python.org doesn't support 2FA currently, whereas GitHub does.
GitHub looks more reliable *and* more secure.

Also, please don't forget an important point: bugs.python.org is
barely maintained. See the list of open issues:
https://github.com/python/bugs.python.org/issues

For example, "Not receiving email from the bug tracker" was reported
25 days ago and got no answer :-(

It's all about trade-offs. Don't under estimate the cost of operating
our own bug tracker. System administration is not free.

Victor

On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 11:46 AM Baptiste Carvello
 wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Le 21/06/2021 à 04:20, Ezio Melotti a écrit :
> > This effort is being tracked at
> > : this board reflects
> > the current status of the project.  The PEPs (including PEP 588 --
> > GitHub Issues Migration Plan) haven't been updated yet and might
> > contain outdated information, so please refer to the psf/gh-migration
> > repo for the latest updates.
>
> since 2019, I've been waiting for proposed solutions to PEP 588's first
> open issue ("A GitHub account should not be a requirement"). Now would
> be the time to think about it, but I see no such reflection mentioned in
> the repo.
>
> Cheers,
> Baptiste
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-- 
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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Antoine Pitrou]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2021 11:27:27 +0200
Baptiste Carvello  wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Le 21/06/2021 à 04:20, Ezio Melotti a écrit :
> > This effort is being tracked at
> > : this board reflects
> > the current status of the project.  The PEPs (including PEP 588 --
> > GitHub Issues Migration Plan) haven't been updated yet and might
> > contain outdated information, so please refer to the psf/gh-migration
> > repo for the latest updates.  
> 
> since 2019, I've been waiting for proposed solutions to PEP 588's first
> open issue ("A GitHub account should not be a requirement"). Now would
> be the time to think about it, but I see no such reflection mentioned in
> the repo.

It's extremely unlikely that Github would allow participating on the
issue tracker without requiring a Github account, even if Python asks
for it.

Regards

Antoine.


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[Python-Dev] Re: Roundup to GitHub Issues migration

[Baptiste Carvello]

Hi,

Le 21/06/2021 à 04:20, Ezio Melotti a écrit :
> This effort is being tracked at
> : this board reflects
> the current status of the project.  The PEPs (including PEP 588 --
> GitHub Issues Migration Plan) haven't been updated yet and might
> contain outdated information, so please refer to the psf/gh-migration
> repo for the latest updates.

since 2019, I've been waiting for proposed solutions to PEP 588's first
open issue ("A GitHub account should not be a requirement"). Now would
be the time to think about it, but I see no such reflection mentioned in
the repo.

Cheers,
Baptiste
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