with CONTROL-C
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against False (or True) is bad idea. I would
certainly reject any code doing it that came past me for review. Use
"not" instead.
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t) is a special case, and a
pretty limited one at that. I'm not sure I've needed it, certainly not
for a while, and I have to say I don't find array initialisation a
compelling use-case. I really don't like the idea of finding it in
comprehensions.
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wrote a folding editor to make programming in Occam bearable :-)
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of a dictionary literal. From that point on
your whole argument falls apart.
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this idea is that a lot of the initial
enthusiasm on this list came from people saying exactly that.
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ssignment would work, or even the length of A[:] as
an assignment target, I'm not going to dismiss it out of hand.
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pam", there's a clear indication that 'spam' needs to provide exactly two
values; but "A[:] = spam" could have any number of values, and it'll expand or shrink the
list accordingly.
Rhodri James wrote:
Flatly, no. It is better not to ask for things you don't want in the first
place
ask next. When the newsletter asks me for a list of
readers, though, I sort them alphabetically by surname, which most
people would think of as the natural sorting order.
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a parsing course, but can you turn that inside out?
Are there times when the compiler knows it must be looking at a keyword,
not a name? I suspect not, given that arbitrary expressions can be
statements, but someone else may have a more knowledgeable opinion.
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to write less clear code.
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that I don't like. This "while expr as name" form is not a win in my book.
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ly capable of
implementing the fluffy collection of vague aspirations and inconsistent
terminology they have given me, but the results won't be what they
expect and probably won't be what they want either. And that's just
talking to my boss :-) If you want somethi
On 09/05/18 20:56, Facundo Batista wrote:
2018-05-09 13:48 GMT-03:00 Rhodri James <rho...@kynesim.co.uk>:
-1 until you give me an actual spec rather than a curious example.
Sorry if that sounds a bit rude, but I spend most of my time trying to find
Be sorry, it was rude.
On refl
, the less I like
them. All I really want is a less clumsy way to write
while true:
thing_to_do = get_something_to_do()
if thing_to_do == GET_OUT_OF_HERE:
break
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ions. The second version
using "given" reads much more naturally to the mathematician in me, and
not too badly to my English half either.
[*] By "like this" I mean the clunky "while true:" spelling, obviously.
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_
uot; I hear "I had to read what
I was making a snap decision on." Sounds like a win :-)
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rage + decay * x
smooth_signal.append(average)
is quite a bit more comprehensible.
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g(v);
The condition expression itself is not what I want to capture; I need a
subexpression, which the "as" syntax won't give me.
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On 21/05/18 12:29, Daniel Moisset wrote:
On 21 May 2018 at 12:05, Rhodri James <rho...@kynesim.co.uk> wrote:
Thanks for the analysis, but I'm afraid I must disagree with your
recommendation. It was the thought I first had when Chris came out with
his first draft of the PEP several mont
ese two are somewhat different things.
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d I haven't seen a convincing example of an useful assignment
expression in a comprehension that wasn't also a convincing example of
things that shouldn't have been comprehensions in the first place.
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that, I'd just type
A.cool_namespace.foo() when I wanted it. Explicit is better than
implicit, after all.
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portunity.
That said, I don't see how having a special delimiter syntax for
something that could just as well be a string is a help.
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. Sorry, it's just too
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in
words. It wasn't even obvious from your introduction that you were
talking about match *expressions* rather than switch statements.
Sorry, but this is too unclear to comment on at the moment.
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,2,3])" ?
What do you do for functions with two or more arguments? The obvious
thing would be to make the right-hand side of the $ operator a tuple,
and whoops, there are your parentheses again.
I don't think this proposal achieves your aim, and I dislike it for a
lot of other reasons.
-
in an f-string:
print(f"{?it=get_value()!r} is printed in pure ASCII as {?it!a}
and in Unicode as {?it}"
While these are wins, they don't read nicely at all. I still don't see
what's wrong with
start = calculate_start()
values = range(start, start+10)
which beats everything I'
. Once we have that down, we can move on to
person.(name?)
(parentheses for emphasis.) Short of actual magic, I can't see how this
is going to work.
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nter differences always made sense. I rewrote that code
so that it didn't take differences of NULL pointers since that was what
the bug specified, but honestly it looks lumpier and less clear now. A
big comment explaining what was going on would probably be better.
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loser to another often requested feature: delayed expression
evaluation (as Steve D'Aprano pointed out).
So there are other, possibly better uses for the '?' symbol. It's something
that needs to be carefully considered.
While my immediate reaction is "yuk", your use of "?" does
the difference between
"+" and attempting to render "+" as a function using dunder methods.
I'm not keen on "?." and "?[]", but they are nothing like as bad as you
are implying, and certainly not as bad as introducing a whole new
concept like boxed
les give me conflicting ideas of what you mean.
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On 26/07/18 05:25, Raymond Hettinger wrote:
This PEP is one step further away from Python reading like executable
pseudo-code.
+1000
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filenames in get_directory_listing(dir) if .....)
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On 31/07/18 18:46, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
n Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 12:41:20PM -0500, Abe Dillon wrote:
[Rhodri James]
On 29/07/18 16:12, Abe Dillon wrote:
> spam?.eggs.cheese.aardvark # why would you ever do this?
If you knew that if you really have something in "spam",
parameter is not None else default
which is a tad wordy. That example isn't too bad, but replace
"parameter" with "spam.spam.spam.eggs" and DRY suddenly becomes a rather
more important principle :-)
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if you use them
around a yield block.
Yes, but those sorts of context managers need to be used with care in
all sorts of circumstances. Fiddling with global state is always fraught.
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you and Michael are arguing to the same end. He was suggesting
that it's easier to teach a concept by introducing the idea and then a
name for it, rather like the way Python creates objects before binding them.
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On 15/08/18 00:09, Chris Barker wrote:
On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 10:45 AM, Rhodri James wrote:
On 'None is a constant':
Erm. I think you've got carried away with simplifying this and gone down
a blind alley. None is a literal, and like any other literal can't be
rebound.
no, it's
r a mutable type;
explaining that common gotcha here would be good.
Epigraphs:
If you're going to quote Sherman, you need to expand on the uniqueness
of None. Not doing that just makes it look irrelevant. It's not
irrelevant, it's a tigger [1]
[1] Misquoting Michael Flanders from the intro
afterwards, was it about None?
I tend to be prolix and I know it. I appreciate people who can
communicate effectively in short sentences. For the most part that's
what you do admirably. This one, however, is too short, and the
conjunction waves a big red flag to indicate it.
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disagree. That original text looks like it has been very carefully
written to be (almost) true. What you are proposing to replace it with
is less true and confusing to boot.
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your's nor mine. It is for the Python docs
maintainers. I will respect their decision, even if I don't agree with
it.
By that logic, no discussion on this list is worth having.
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, you are going to have to persuade them that
it is useful. Demanding that they do something because you like it is
not persuasive.
(Personally I don't use IDEs, so you proposal is exactly no use to me.
I don't think it's a suitable subject for a PEP.)
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breaks in loops that are reading from generators. But that wouldn't be
helpful, obviously.
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optimization for locals.
defacto standards are sub-optimum -- the docs say "may not" -- that seems
really sketchy to me.
On the contrary, it is well defined in international standards usage.
"May" and "may not" indicate that behaviour is optional, so shouldn't be
d.
> It was delightfully intuitive.
One of the things Apple have always been very good at is thinking hard
about user interfaces. What made the iPhone so good was that they
emulated the right physical interfaces, so flipping a page when you're
reading rather than pressing a button.
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wrong.
(That was a decision made a long time ago, and I'm not fool enough to
think that there's any benefit in trying to change it now. I can still
be a grumpy old man over it, though.)
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of something
because it's a slightly less confusing name to newbies is a really low
priority!
Jonathan isn't proposing to change the name, just to add a synonym. The
obvious quote from the Zen at this point is:
"There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it."
meaningless.
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this way of doing it:
def my_very_long_function_with_one_yield_point(...):
# This is a generator
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Code of
though I haven't actually checked the grammar.
My only doubt is how much value there is to having a sentinel other than
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On 20/07/18 01:30, Greg Ewing wrote:
Rhodri James wrote:
On 19/07/18 07:06, Greg Ewing wrote:
There's no such tradition for the new
operators being proposed.
There is, actually, it's just not a long one. C# has had null-aware
operators for a while, for example.
THere's a precedent, yes
k to my original comment: is this really a problem
we want to solve?
How are you supposed to do method calling, the equivalent of
"foo?.bar()" ? "NoneAware(foo).bar.unbox()()" looks downright weird.
Is there more magic in NoneAware to cover this case? (Not that I think
On 23/07/18 19:21, David Mertz wrote:
On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:12 PM Rhodri James wrote:
How are you supposed to do method calling, the equivalent of
"foo?.bar()" ? "NoneAware(foo).bar.unbox()()" looks downright weird.
Is there more magic in NoneAware to cover this case
If anyone can think of a good word for "if it isn't None, otherwise",
I'd be all for it :-)
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the
repetition is more of an issue. It's much worse if what you have is
more like:
item = spam.spam.spam.eggs if spam.spam.spam.eggs is not None else beans
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in a C-like language, though.
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On 24/07/18 14:02, David Mertz wrote:
On Tue, Jul 24, 2018, 7:38 AM Rhodri James wrote:
I'm still of the opinion that both approaches are trying to solve a
problem that's too niche to merit them, BTW.
That doesn't make sense to me. You think my little library shouldn't be
allowed on PyPI? I
are trying to solve a
problem that's too niche to merit them, BTW.
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On 24/07/18 12:56, Grégory Lielens wrote:
On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 1:38:42 PM UTC+2, Rhodri James wrote:
-snip-
I'm still of the opinion that both approaches are trying to solve a
problem that's too niche to merit them, BTW.
That's also my impression. Hence the second approach: it does
disagree with you about ? not giving any much indication
that it's about Nullness except for the (relatively short) history of
using it to mean exactly that in C# etc. However I don't think that a
class of whatever name doing something magic is any better.
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everywhere, such that the "declaration part"
and the "use" part agree on the same idea (same type).
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it does mean. Could you try that again?
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if part of my dislike of your proposal is that you are
deliberately blurring that disconnect?
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prefer f(page) today. For some reason. That might refute your
statement or not, depending on why they do it.
Evidence?
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the use of pathlib with things that aren't filing
systems, such as http or ftp. Moving the file operations into pathlib
would strain that idea even harder than my (extremely superficial)
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t's a good thing).
Le 2 mars 2018 20:48, "Rhodri James" <rho...@kynesim.co.uk> a écrit :
On 02/03/18 18:27, Jelle Zijlstra wrote:
2018-03-02 7:03 GMT-08:00 Robert Vanden Eynde <robertv...@gmail.com>:
Guys, please don't email to me *and* the mailing list. Getting two copies
expect the
constant string implicit concatenation to produce single constants
efficiently, but explicit concatenation doing the constant folding is a
much less sure bet.
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ou've
used the term.)
Thank you for saying that, Steven. I must admit I was beginning to find
the implicit insults rather grating.
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ecay*xt
yield average
signal = [math.sin(i*0.01) + random.normalvariate(0, 0.1) for i in range(1000)]
smooth_signal = list(exponential_moving_average(signal, decay=0.05))
Aside from unnecessarily being a generator, this reads better to me!
-
tive. For me, my expectations of '!'
run roughly as:
* factorial (from my maths degree)
* array dereference (because I am old: a!2 was the equivalent of a[2]
in BCPL)
* an exclamation, much overused in writing
* the author was bitten by Yahoo! at an early age.
-
On 09/04/18 11:52, Rhodri James wrote:
On 07/04/18 09:54, Cammil Taank wrote:
Care to repeat those arguments?
Indeed.
*Minimal use of characters*
Terseness is not necessarily a virtue. While it's good not to be
needlessly verbose, Python is not Perl and we are not trying to do
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of letters and symbols appealing, sorry.
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is appropriate. Your
solution also isn't detailed enough, as several people have pointed out.
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proposal that ought to be mentioned here? If this proposal
is rejected, it should be rejected with a full set of alternatives.
Thank you very much, Chris. I think you've won me over on most points,
though I'm not sure whether I'm overall +0 or -0 on the whole PEP :-)
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On 02/03/18 18:27, Jelle Zijlstra wrote:
2018-03-02 7:03 GMT-08:00 Robert Vanden Eynde <robertv...@gmail.com>:
Guys, please don't email to me *and* the mailing list. Getting two
copies of your deathless prose makes me less likely to pay attention to
you, not more.
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e arguing as to whether "a" is a special snowflake or just a
normal local variable.
2. Add a "with" clause to comprehensions to make comprehension-local
variables (presumably the same class of thing as the iteration variables).
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and then attempting to
hide the magic. Worse, you are hiding it by pretending to be something
else (an ordinary comprehension), which will break people's intuition
about what is being produced.
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On 04/10/18 19:10, Jonathan Fine wrote:
In response to my problem-solution pair (fixing a typo)
TITLE: Debug print() statements cause doctests to fail
Rhodri James wrote:
Or write your debug output to stderr?
Perhaps I've been too concise. If so, I apologise. My proposal is that
the system
her people are
going to be surprised that you can only use it in a return statement or
you have to open the whole can of worms about multi-line lambdas. Good
luck on the latter.
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t
of view, yielding does not leave the with block in any meaningful sense.
Indeed I'd be quite hacked off with a file context manager that was so
inefficient as to close the file on yielding a line, only to have to
re-open and seek when it got control back.
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think it's worth it, mind you.
On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 2:31 PM Greg Ewing
wrote:
Calvin Spealman wrote:
def ignore_exc(exc_type):
return def (func):
> ...
Something very similar has been suggested before, you might
like to review the previous discussion.
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Or write your debug output to stderr?
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t; need to be
*mastered* a tad patronising. I have genuinely not had to take more
than five minutes to get it through to an uninterested and not
particularly technical 12-year old.
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to get comfortable
doing.
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a bad path
to go down.
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eptible to automated testing, though, not
without spending twice as long writing (and testing!) the test
environment as the code.
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different to resurrecting a moribund topic.
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de or offensive remark
or action" (at least in the meanings we are talking about). They have
overlapping meanings but aren't identical.
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the new
syntax, so it does impact on them. The additional accidental complexity
isn't something you can just dismiss because not everyone will have to
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affixes, and that in
providing these particular batteries we might be encouraging poor practise.
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error-prone when you cut and paste for a different prompt
elsewhere and forget to change the slice to match.
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Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd
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Code
concatenation doesn't
have a well-defined inverse, as you demonstrated by not actually trying
to define it. It strikes me that following this line of reasoning is at
best a category error.
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Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd
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o populate the repo with its
initial content.
Having to do new work would certainly discourage some of the less
technically well-founded ideas. I don't think that's what you meant,
though :-)
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rtant, especially when you consider that PEP8 only really has force
for the standard library.
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, I feel
obliged to point out that this last is currently spelled
dict_a.update(dict_b)
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