Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-27 Thread Steve Holden
Edward Elliott wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Flash also behaves consistently cross-browser, cross/platform -- and features cannot be disabled by the user. ^^ And that's a good thing? Maybe for Macromedia, not for us. This smells like astroturf.

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-27 Thread Marco Carvalho
We don't need any proprietary junk to make a nice-look website: http://www.csszengarden.com You can navigate in this site with any kind of browser, even graphical or text-based, like lynx. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-23 Thread bruno at modulix
Ben Finney wrote: SamFeltus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I keep trying to understand why people like HTML/JS, I don't think I am gonna understand. It's fairly simple: HTML, CSS and JavaScript have all been standardised independent of any single corporation, and are freely implementable,

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-23 Thread SamFeltus
I would. Most people would, once they realize that shiny/flashy is information too. High production values affect value-determining centers of the brain, bypassing the linguistic and logical centers. They make you understand that the thing you're being presented is worth something. Most of

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-23 Thread Paul Rubin
SamFeltus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But your brain doesn't care. It's got a shortcut to your wallet, and the information on the screen is accessing that. This was the most useful comment for me. I never fully considered that Flash was aiming at a different part of the brain. HTML is

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-23 Thread Blair P. Houghton
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SamFeltus wrote: Here is a visual argument, http://samfeltus.com/swf/contact_globes.swf Here's a text-based argument. If I search Golge for gardener, Athens, GA then Google's spiders won't have recorded your contact page. So I don't find you as a local

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-22 Thread SamFeltus
I guess for better or worse, Flash is a very different mindset and approach to the web. I do find it interesting that Flash folks readily will acknowledge that Flash has shortcomings, yet anti-Flash folks seem to have great difficulty acknowledging Flash's positive features over HTML. Such

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-22 Thread Paul Rubin
SamFeltus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I do find it interesting that Flash folks readily will acknowledge that Flash has shortcomings, yet anti-Flash folks seem to have great difficulty acknowledging Flash's positive features over HTML. Such situations always make me suspicious Ludditism is at

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-22 Thread Sybren Stuvel
SamFeltus enlightened us with: I do find it interesting that Flash folks readily will acknowledge that Flash has shortcomings yet anti-Flash folks seem to have great difficulty acknowledging Flash's positive features over HTML. I must say I've never seen a pro-Flash person acknowledging that

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-22 Thread SamFeltus
I don't agree with 99.9%, but the majority of Flash sites are done poorly. Mine is certainly sub-optimal, :) 1. Loss of back button Isn't this really a myth? A page with a time dimension, be it Flash, HTML/JS or whatever, breaks the back button. A page without a time dimension doesn't break

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-22 Thread SamFeltus
Perhaps the my question should be this, and don't get me wrong, I REALLY like Python. Perhaps Python is not a great language to focus on for someone with a strong interest in Flash and little interest in HTML? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-22 Thread Paul Rubin
SamFeltus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As for the blind issue,that makes no sense to me. Is the suggestion that we should give up using images in web sites since some people can't see them. Might as well throw out the use of the img tag while we are at it? Img tags should always have alt text

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-22 Thread Blair P. Houghton
Sybren Stuvel wrote: Heiko Wundram enlightened us with: And: the web is a platform to offer _information_. Not to offer shiny graphics/sound [...] Many would disagree... Not me, but I know a lot of people that would. I would. Most people would, once they realize that shiny/flashy is

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-22 Thread dingbat
SamFeltus wrote: Here is a visual argument, http://samfeltus.com/swf/contact_globes.swf Here's a text-based argument. If I search Golge for gardener, Athens, GA then Google's spiders won't have recorded your contact page. So I don't find you as a local gardener, so I don't hire you for my

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-22 Thread Edward Elliott
SamFeltus wrote: 1. Loss of back button Isn't this really a myth? A page with a time dimension, be it Flash, HTML/JS or whatever, breaks the back button. A page without a time dimension doesn't break the back button. Should we now and forever more give up the time dimension to avoid

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-22 Thread SamFeltus
This has all been very helpful. I've been struggling for awhile on which direction to go with computer programming. I realize the problem with HTML and the P language family is that although it makes sense to me, it doesn't really resonate with my perspective. Flash definitely does. I finally

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-22 Thread Sybren Stuvel
SamFeltus enlightened us with: 1. Loss of back button Isn't this really a myth? No, it isn't a myth. Pressing the back button is the action second most performed in a browser, clicking a link being the first. People want to go back from where they came. A page with a time dimension, be it

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-22 Thread Paul Rubin
SamFeltus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am uncomfortable with the seperating of the code from the visual/time element, as well as the lack of emphasis on the visual/time element. Maybe you should buy a camcorder and make movies, instead of doing web sites. I am not a big Perl/PHP fan, I find

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-22 Thread SamFeltus
Nah, the world needs more Flashy WebSites, :) But I do renounce my uglier criticisms of HTML. I realize now it is just a completely different mindset, not a bad technology. Python is far easier than PHP IMO. Especially if there is minimal HTML, I mostly just want to get at a database and

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-22 Thread Roel Schroeven
Sybren Stuvel schreef: SamFeltus enlightened us with: 1. Loss of back button Isn't this really a myth? No, it isn't a myth. Pressing the back button is the action second most performed in a browser, clicking a link being the first. People want to go back from where they came. I don't even

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-22 Thread SamFeltus
Don't worry, you won't have to look if it makes you feel dirty... :) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-22 Thread Ben Finney
SamFeltus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I do find it interesting that Flash folks readily will acknowledge that Flash has shortcomings, yet anti-Flash folks seem to have great difficulty acknowledging Flash's positive features over HTML. Such situations always make me suspicious Ludditism is at

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-22 Thread SamFeltus
I find it tiresome that Flash apologists believe technical advantages can overcome a need for open, community-driven, vendor-independent standards. :) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-21 Thread foxtree
None of you seem to know what you are talking about. Flash should be used where one needs to use Flash, and HTML/JS/CSS (+XML+XSLT) likewise. Flash can play video. That is not possible w/ HTML/CSS/JS. Flash also behaves consistently cross-browser, cross/platform -- and most features cannot be

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-21 Thread Ben Finney
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Flash is like a 2 MB download that works in almost *every* browser out there. Except all the browsers on platforms Macromedia have not chosen to support. And no-one else can implement it on those platforms, except by guessing about the closed implementation

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-21 Thread SamFeltus
I am in agreement that open standards are better. I also wish the open standards bodies would work more creatively, to bring us the most advanced standards, and not some echo of yesterdays technology. But, too me, saying No Flash is saying No Source if not Open Source. But, for me, it is better

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-21 Thread Sybren Stuvel
[EMAIL PROTECTED] enlightened us with: None of you seem to know what you are talking about. That's not a way to make friends. I very well know what I'm talking about. None of the issues I've raised are negated by what you say, so every single one still stands. Flash also behaves consistently

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-21 Thread Roel Schroeven
SamFeltus schreef: Here is a visual argument, I would love to see a list of AJAX and SVG sites that display excellent graphics. http://bacardimojito.com/main.swf http://tokyoplastic.com/LF.swf http://coolbreathpower.com/ http://www.peterjoel.com/flash8previews/candleFlame.html

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-21 Thread Edward Elliott
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Flash also behaves consistently cross-browser, cross/platform -- and features cannot be disabled by the user. ^^ And that's a good thing? Maybe for Macromedia, not for us. This smells like astroturf. Flash can load and play

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-21 Thread Edward Elliott
Roel Schroeven wrote: SamFeltus schreef: Here is a visual argument, I would love to see a list of AJAX and SVG sites that display excellent graphics. [snip] In my humble opinion, those sites are an argument _against_ the use of Flash on websites. They may look pretty (I don't think they

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-21 Thread SamFeltus
Hmmm... It is interesting how something is terrible to one person, and great to another, and vice versa. I keep trying to understand why people like HTML/JS, I don't think I am gonna understand. I guess for better or worse, Flash is a very different mindset and approach to the web. Oh well, I

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-21 Thread Luis M. González
IMHO, there's nothing more annoying that a website showing me a progression bar, indicating how much time it will get to provide the information I'm looking for... And when the progression bar ends, I have to wait until the flashy graphics and stupid presentation shows me the go to html site... I

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-21 Thread Ben Finney
SamFeltus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I keep trying to understand why people like HTML/JS, I don't think I am gonna understand. It's fairly simple: HTML, CSS and JavaScript have all been standardised independent of any single corporation, and are freely implementable, resulting in competing free

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-21 Thread SamFeltus
As a final thought, seperate from the whole open source/search issue, which has obvious merit, it does seem Flash has many excellent ideas as a language/tool for creating/expressing non written ideas that are lacking in the HTML world. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-19 Thread Florian Diesch
bruno at modulix [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SamFeltus wrote: I am trying to figure out why so little web development in Python uses Flash as a display technology. It seems most Python applications choose HTML/CSS/JS as the display technology, yet Flash is a far more powerful and elegant

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-19 Thread Sybren Stuvel
Florian Diesch enlightened us with: - Flash is a proprietary technology requiring a proprietary plugin. There seem to be at least two free implementations: But the website of OP together with the websites of many other people are incompatible with those, since they require the latest and

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-18 Thread Heiko Wundram
Am Donnerstag 18 Mai 2006 08:51 schrieb SamFeltus: I am trying to figure out why so little web development in Python uses Flash as a display technology. It seems most Python applications choose HTML/CSS/JS as the display technology, yet Flash is a far more powerful and elegant display

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-18 Thread Sybren Stuvel
Heiko Wundram enlightened us with: And: the web is a platform to offer _information_. Not to offer shiny graphics/sound [...] Many would disagree... Not me, but I know a lot of people that would. Sybren -- The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a capital

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-18 Thread Sybren Stuvel
SamFeltus enlightened us with: I am trying to figure out why so little web development in Python uses Flash as a display technology. There are a couple of reasons: - Flash is bad for websites that are 100% done inside the Flash movie. In such a case the back-button doesn't work

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-18 Thread bruno at modulix
SamFeltus wrote: I am trying to figure out why so little web development in Python uses Flash as a display technology. It seems most Python applications choose HTML/CSS/JS as the display technology, yet Flash is a far more powerful and elegant display technology. On the other hand, HTML/JS

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-18 Thread Ben Finney
SamFeltus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It seems most Python applications choose HTML/CSS/JS as the display technology, These are open, freely-implementable, non-proprietary standards controlled by standards bodies. yet Flash is a far more powerful and elegant display technology. This is a

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-18 Thread SamFeltus
I guess there isn't much to understand. If you are satisfied with a text based, static image web, that is light on artistic possabilities, all that HTML stuff is acceptable. Perhaps the HTML/JS group will even get off their rear ends and bring some decent cross platform graphics capabilities to

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-18 Thread SamFeltus
I guess there isn't much to understand. If you are satisfied with a text based, static image web, that is light on artistic possabilities, all that HTML stuff is acceptable. Perhaps the HTML/JS group will even get off their rear ends and bring some decent cross platform graphics capabilities to

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-18 Thread bruno at modulix
SamFeltus wrote: I guess there isn't much to understand. If you are satisfied with a text based, static image web, that is light on artistic possabilities, all that HTML stuff is acceptable. 1. artistic != animated. 2. the web has mostly been designed for text-based content. Perhaps the

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-18 Thread Sybren Stuvel
SamFeltus enlightened us with: I guess there isn't much to understand. If you are satisfied with a text based, static image web, that is light on artistic possabilities, all that HTML stuff is acceptable. You don't need Flash to be artistic. Perhaps the HTML/JS group will even get off their

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-18 Thread John Salerno
SamFeltus wrote: I guess there isn't much to understand. If you are satisfied with a text based, static image web, that is light on artistic possabilities, all that HTML stuff is acceptable. Personally, I always heave a big sigh of resignation when I'm on a site that uses Flash, because I

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-18 Thread Paul Rubin
SamFeltus [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I guess there isn't much to understand. If you are satisfied with a text based, static image web, that is light on artistic possabilities, all that HTML stuff is acceptable. Perhaps the HTML/JS group will even get off their rear ends and bring some decent

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-18 Thread Heiko Wundram
Am Donnerstag 18 Mai 2006 16:09 schrieb SamFeltus: I guess there isn't much to understand. Sure, there's a lot to understand here. What I guess you can't come to terms with is the fact that the web (hell, the whole Internet) isn't designed for Windows personal computers only, but for a whole

Re: Python - Web Display Technology

2006-05-18 Thread Paul Boddie
SamFeltus wrote: I guess there isn't much to understand. If you are satisfied with a text based, static image web, that is light on artistic possabilities, all that HTML stuff is acceptable. Perhaps the HTML/JS group will even get off their rear ends and bring some decent cross platform